I'm way east of the Ex, and just north of Carlton, but clearly they have to do their friggin swoop arounds.

There's a frikkin' war on, and the CNE is major recruiting tool for the Canadian Forces. Did you miss this year's Warriors' Day Parade August 16? This year's theme was: Saluting our Veterans, Supporting our Troops!

Last year's was a huge success!

[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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al-Qa'bong: How much does a Stealth bomber cost?

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I read once that the cost is around $1 billion.

Sorry. Make that $1.4 Billion US EACH.

Wanna see $1.4 billion go up in smoke?

[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
So I'm trying to have a leisurely afternoon at home and I hear this godawful noise of friggin war planes overhead

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Must be nice to only have to put up with the noise from airplanes for 1 weekend out of the whole year.

I live in a tiny apartment with 2 children near the airport. No airconditioning. Very noisy.

But I hate the mainstream idiocy of airshows, fireworks, etc, at the very least as wastes of money, loud and polluting and completely unnecessary.

At the risk of seeming terrifically uncool or ethically unhip, we love the fireworks on Canada day. Mainstream, sure, but enjoyable and free to the public.

As for being utilitarian, you have no idea the flagrant, depraved excesses I may surround myself with in my life.

[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

How much does a Stealth bomber cost? A few years ago I was within rock-chucking distance of one. Had I wanted to....

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martin d: So-called air shows that feature almost exclusively the military are propaganda pure and simple.

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martin d: Why is it we could see it when the Soviets paraded their wares, but it becomes fun-and-games-for-the-kids when our own boys go a-strutting?

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Wanna see $1.4 billion go up in smoke?

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As for being utilitarian, you have no idea the flagrant, depraved excesses I may surround myself with in my life.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Kelly, I'm not complaining about the regular noise that I'm fine to tolerate as a resident of downtown.

But I hate the mainstream idiocy of airshows, fireworks, etc, at the very least as wastes of money, loud and polluting and completely unnecessary.

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Ah, so it's not the noise that bothers you, despite what you said above about how the noise was disturbing your weekend. It's the uselessness of airshows that bothers you.

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bcg: ...survivors of wars and invasions living in Toronto have experienced great fear and terror when hearing those sounds again, not necessarily knowing it's a "show" for "fun"

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Turned out years later it was part of the planning for a new airport east of the town in Pickering. Complaint calls were charted, to help choose layout for the runways...

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I live in a tiny apartment with 2 children near the airport. No airconditioning. Very noisy.

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Originally posted by North Shore:

Pearson has been there since the 40's...

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
"Free to the public"? Just because we don't see the bill doesn't mean it's free. And when you factor in the broken soldiers that come back missing a limb and out of their minds...
So-called air shows that feature almost exclusively the military are propaganda pure and simple. Why is it that we could see it when the Soviets paraded their wares, but it becomes fun-and-games-for-the-kids when our own boys go a-strutting?

[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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WTF? I was talking about fireworks, which bcg threw in for good measure along with her other complaints.

I don't mind paying (via my city taxes) for public fireworks that I see people of all income levels coming out to enjoy. I think it's actually a pretty egalitarian form of entertainment.

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Our tastes don't mesh is all.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

As for being utilitarian, you have no idea the flagrant, depraved excesses I may surround myself with in my life.

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Yes, and I haven't even gone to the more political argument that survivors of wars and invasions living in Toronto have experienced great fear and terror when hearing those sounds again, not necessarily knowing it's a "show" for "fun".

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When I lived in south Parkdale we couldn't sit in the backyard on Labour Day wkend for the racket. And try getting a colicky baby to sleep when American military jets are buzzing your place.

And I hate fireworks, too! When my younger daughter was five, she was burned at a Canada Day street fireworks celebration, and subsequently terrified of fireworks.

But you forgot to mention the stinky din that is the Molson Indy.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
So-called air shows that feature almost exclusively the military are propaganda pure and simple.

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Originally posted by Kelly Martin:

Ah, so it's not the noise that bothers you, despite what you said above about how the noise was disturbing your weekend. It's the uselessness of airshows that bothers you.

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Timebandit, I threw fireworks in there, because I'm crabby and I hate loud things that one can't avoid because they're so public. And because I really don't think you all want to hear my feminist critique of fireworks as public manifestations of and tributes to ejaculation do you?

BTW, I don't like the new Canadian Opera House either, but not because it's loud (because it isn't). I find other venues in which to gripe about that. This thread isn't the place for all sorts of gripes. I drifted my own noise complaint, I realize my error now. Hm, maybe a "gripes and pet peeves" thread is in order.

And Sineed, don't get me started about the friggin Molson Indy. There's some crabbiness waiting to emerge!

[ 30 August 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by Sineed:
Driving a car isn't a sport.

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But Jacques Villeneuve won Canadian Athlete of the Year that time.

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Originally posted by Sineed:
Driving a car isn't a sport.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
A_J wrote: "According to the program half (and possible more) of the displays are civilian aircraft - of the 16, there are 6 military demonstrations (8 if you include the Snowbirds and a restored Spitfire, which is debatable)"

No. On the page you posted, there are 28 aircraft photographed, 24 of them military. Four "acts" are civilian aircraft; the rest are RCAFG, USAF and RCAC and veteran military planes.

Notice also the close integration of U.S. and Canadian aircraft.

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Anyway, from this perspective, for what it's worth, I would add the observation that whatever else air shows may be -- and I personally fully agree with the above observations about their propaganda functions and the waste of money and pollution -- they are also a big source of pride for military families and forces communities. Canadian soldiers endure some pretty depraved conditions, even when they survive, and their families go through a lot too both while their soldier is away on duty, and in being continuously uprooted and posted to different bases around the country all the time. Nobody's getting rich at that game either.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:

Competitive driving is, well, competitive, but calling it motorsport is a bit much, and I speak as someone who decades ago both raced and rallied a vintage Mini Cooper. It's a competitive (and expensive) hobby, and as far as I am concerned not a sport at all. I feel the same way about 'equestrian sports' because it's after all the horse doing the work. There's also power boat racing, which to me also is not a sport.

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I think what bcg's on about at least in part is all the events going on that affect all the people in TO whether they like it or not. And yeah; we live in Canada's largest city, we benefit financially and culturally from having all these things going on, and maybe to a certain extent we need to learn to suck it up. But sometimes, you've worked, say, a twelve-hour shift and just want to go home and crash, and your way home is blocked by yet another film shoot, or you're crammed on the subway car with all these louts crowing over whatever latest sports victory, or the entire downtown is gridlocked by yet another parade/promotional event/demonstration.

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Timebandit, I threw fireworks in there, because I'm crabby and I hate loud things that one can't avoid because they're so public. And because I really don't think you all want to hear my feminist critique of fireworks as public manifestations of and tributes to ejaculation do you?

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Only in the poorest of movies and most fervid of imaginations.

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Roncesvalles Ave

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Is there really a road named after that early battle in the War on Terror?

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Yes. (I asked the administrator of the Roncesvalles BIA.)

Ferfuxaches, it's a light show! No humans or animals are intentionally harmed.

I'm not suggesting everybody love 'em, but let's not allow the hyperbole to run away with itself.

[ 31 August 2008: Message edited by: Timebandit ]

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BTW, to those who defend fireworks because they're populist: so were public executions and bear baiting.

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This would make the teeniest bit of sense if fireworks were actually aimed at someone.

Anyway, we just got back from our family walk down to the river, where we saw a great fireworks display. We "oooh'd" and "ahhh'd" through the whole thing.

We didn't think Saskatoon could put on such an impressive display - it beats any Dominion Day we've seen here. I'd say tonight's spectacle was almost right up there with some we've seen on 14 juillet.

I dunno, any fireworks are fun. Even the humble little shows on St. Jean Baptiste at the kids' school are fun to atttend.

[ed.- just read Timebandit's edit, which she posted while I was writing]

They even played Louis Armstrong singing "What a Wonderful World" while the display was on, the monsters.

[ 31 August 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

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A_J: ...the civilian-operated Harvard training aircraft...

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[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by Timebandit:
Oh, that's just cruel!

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Cruel you say? You don't know cruel, until you've been warming by the Devil's fire.

Yea, verily I say, these frivolous entertainments are the work of Satan! Satan, I say!

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:
I'm way east of the Ex, and just north of Carlton, but clearly they have to do their friggin swoop arounds.

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I feel your pain, and I spent most of the weekend north of Barrie at a cottage on an island in a lake. (Just got home last night.) And I STILL saw and heard the damn things, because they were circling way up there, or perhaps going to Toronto from CFB Borden.

P.S. Right after I hit "send" I just heard a deafening one go overhead!

[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:

P.S. Right after I hit "send" I just heard a deafening one go overhead!

[ 01 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Noise level is significantly lower this year in the east end. I think they're doing all their approaches from the west

Cats aren't hiding under the covers in the bed.

I've never lived in a war zone, but I would wonder about those who have, how pleasant it would be to relive the sight and sound of bomber planes overhead. I myself found it frightening and oppressive.

Does that still happen in the downtown? I cannot think of a stupider place to hold such an event. As if Vancouver needs THAT kind of tourism. How about a tractor pull in Whistler? It makes as much sense.

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Originally posted by Michelle:

I feel your pain, and I spent most of the weekend north of Barrie at a cottage on an island in a lake.

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My long weekend rant:

Ohh…. you are one of those city folks, coming up to my rural areas, driving up prices on just about everything, dumping their Tim Horton cups and Big Mac containers all over my woodlot, loud radio’s blazing unto all hours of the morning, speeding boats scaring away all fishes, and the driving skills of an extra from a Mad Max movie.

There should be a large toll fee from any exiting the GTA zone.

Damn city slickers screwing up my weekend.

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Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

This would make the teeniest bit of sense if fireworks were actually aimed at someone.

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Ohh…. you are one of those city folks, coming up to my rural areas, driving up prices on just about everything, dumping their Tim Horton cups and Big Mac containers all over my woodlot, loud radio’s blazing unto all hours of the morning, speeding boats scaring away all fishes, and the driving skills of an extra from a Mad Max movie.

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But at some point I realized I would have to tell myself to suck it up -- it brings other people pleasure, it adds to the economic life of the city and it isn't really harming anyone.

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Originally posted by Timebandit:
What's the point of whinging about it?

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Originally posted by Timebandit:
I have the option to live in the 'burbs, where it's much quieter,

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Not guaranteed, by any stretch. Earlier this summer I was going crazy with the screaming kids in my neighbours' pool. And the loudest place I have ever lived was not even in town; a small bump developed in the road in front of our country house, which empty gravel trucks would fly over regularly at 80 clicks plus. We developed cracks in the foundation.

Noise pollution is a big problem. Different noises affect different people but what I learned looking into it a couple months back is that if a noise bothers enough people, if you elect the right council, it is within the municipality's power to enact a bylaw.

Contribute to urban sprawl because you get annoyed by the fucking 905ers coming to watch a bunch of planes? Seriously? I should have moved to Shitby? No, no thanks. Have your air show in the burbs see how they like it.

What a humourless bunch of moralizers we have become. Feminism is AWOL on babble but we attack a moderator because the air show is fucking annoying. This is babble banter people!!!!

To top it off someone is so stupid they think BCG might actually support thing like the car show.

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Originally posted by Scout:
littering and puking is always by city folk.

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In 2006, the last time the US Navy Blue Angel air show was invited to come to Duluth, there was a news report that said that the Blue Angel fighter jets burned 8,000 pounds of jet fuel per hour of flight. 8,000 pounds of jet fuel equals 1,200 gallons. In 2006, the cost to the Navy for that fuel was $2 - 3 dollars per gallon. Today, with the current world-wide scarcity of fuel, the price of jet fuel has risen to $7 per gallon!

The 2006 news report also said that the commanding officer of the Blue Angels team was required to fly a minimum of 3,000 hours just in his training exercises in order to qualify to be commander. The other team members, just to get into the Angels, had to fly 1350 hours to qualify. It was noted that there were 15 pilots that are members, although only 6 perform at a time.

As of 2006, there had been 230 Blue Angel pilots. They perform 70 or so shows per year and have dress rehearsals before each performance. The pilots also practice their routines year-round over and around their Pensacola, Florida base of operations.

Now for an unwelcome reality check. Here's the math:

The 3000 hours of simply training the single Commanding Officer of the Blue Angels used up 3,600,000 gallons of jet fuel just in the training phase (3,000 hours X 1,200 gallons/hr)!

How about the costs in fuel for the other 15 officer pilots? The 1,350 training hours for the 15 other officer pilots on the team (although only six perform at a time) consumed 1,620,000 gallons for each one's 1350 hours of training (1,350 hours X 1,200gallons/hr X 15). Multiply that by the 15 pilots and you get 24,300,000 gallons of fuel just for the training. At today's costs of jet fuel, $7/gallon, for every new Navy pilot who aspires to become a Blue Angel, the costs to US taxpayers, just for training, would be $11,340,000 per pilot.

One could multiply the fuel consumption just for the training by the 230 Blue Angel pilots that have performed over the past decades and we would get the figure of 5.6 billion gallons of jet fuel (5,589,000,000 gallons) just for training!

And then if you want to get some really big numbers, one could also try to calculate the fuel costs for the upcoming year of 70 shows/year (not counting the dress rehearsals before each show and not counting the continuous training that probably goes on most days of the year), the flights to and from Pensacola, the support crew's C-130 transport plane.

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
In 2006, the last time the US Navy Blue Angel air show was invited to come to Duluth, there was a news report that said that the Blue Angel fighter jets burned 8,000 pounds of jet fuel per hour of flight. 8,000 pounds of jet fuel equals 1,200 gallons. In 2006, the cost to the Navy for that fuel was $2 - 3 dollars per gallon. Today, with the current world-wide scarcity of fuel, the price of jet fuel has risen to $7 per gallon!
The 2006 news report also said that the commanding officer of the Blue Angels team was required to fly a minimum of 3,000 hours just in his training exercises in order to qualify to be commander. The other team members, just to get into the Angels, had to fly 1350 hours to qualify. It was noted that there were 15 pilots that are members, although only 6 perform at a time.

As of 2006, there had been 230 Blue Angel pilots. They perform 70 or so shows per year and have dress rehearsals before each performance. The pilots also practice their routines year-round over and around their Pensacola, Florida base of operations.

Now for an unwelcome reality check. Here's the math:

The 3000 hours of simply training the single Commanding Officer of the Blue Angels used up 3,600,000 gallons of jet fuel just in the training phase (3,000 hours X 1,200 gallons/hr)!

How about the costs in fuel for the other 15 officer pilots? The 1,350 training hours for the 15 other officer pilots on the team (although only six perform at a time) consumed 1,620,000 gallons for each one's 1350 hours of training (1,350 hours X 1,200gallons/hr X 15). Multiply that by the 15 pilots and you get 24,300,000 gallons of fuel just for the training. At today's costs of jet fuel, $7/gallon, for every new Navy pilot who aspires to become a Blue Angel, the costs to US taxpayers, just for training, would be $11,340,000 per pilot.

One could multiply the fuel consumption just for the training by the 230 Blue Angel pilots that have performed over the past decades and we would get the figure of 5.6 billion gallons of jet fuel (5,589,000,000 gallons) just for training!

And then if you want to get some really big numbers, one could also try to calculate the fuel costs for the upcoming year of 70 shows/year (not counting the dress rehearsals before each show and not counting the continuous training that probably goes on most days of the year), the flights to and from Pensacola, the support crew's C-130 transport plane.

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Where did the author come up with 5.6 billion gallons of fuel "just for training"? For the approximately 230 pilots that have been Blue Angels since 1946, that would be an average of 24.3 million gallons of fuel per pilot. At 1,200 gallons of fuel per hour, that would mean each pilot would have flown over 20,300 hours..."just for training"!!!

It's obvious where the author made a calculation error (so much for fifth grade math literacy).

Also, where did the author come up with $7/gallon for jet fuel? The F/A-18 Hornets flown by the Blue Angles use JP-5 jet fuel. JP-5 jet fuel costs, as recent as 90 days ago, $2.92 per gallon (which is no doubt near a record high).

Two big General Electric F414 engines thrusting you at mach speeds straight into the sky, parting the air like a knife through butter. The crack of the sound barrier as you push your way through and the creation of the Prandlt-Glauret singularity that so resembles a glory hole in action. That big stick between your legs, controlling your every move and responding to your touch like an experienced lover.

The tanker capacity gives you the ability to both give and receive in the air, opening up the world to a whole new set of possibilities.

And just when you think you've had enough, you see your target. All ripe and ready to receive your package. So you knock off the defenders with your hammering M61 Vulcan cannon and when you're ready, send your GBU-31 on the way for an explosive finish.

On your way home, light up those F414's and just enjoy the ride.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
He's really got your number, Sven...

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Automobiles fill an essential need

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His exploits as a civilian pilot were in many ways as harrowing and as courageous as his war time involvement. In 1928 when diphtheria broke out in the community of Little Red River, 80 kilometres from Fort Vermilion in Northern Alberta, Wop May answered the call of 150 residents in Little Red River and 550 in Fort Vermilion by flying in 20 pounds of serum required to vaccinate the residents against diphtheria in an open cockpit bi-plane at 100 miles an hour in minus 40 degree temperatures. When May arrived with the life saving serum, his grateful hosts found his fingers frozen to the controls of the aircraft..

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I believe he was making fun of your silly phallic analogy.

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When May arrived with the life saving serum, his grateful hosts found his fingers frozen to the controls of the aircraft...

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Apples and oranges. Automobiles fill an essential need, cavorting air soldiers don't.
You seem to be really taking this exposé personally, Sven. Do you have a special thing for elongated jet fighters?

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[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

It's remarkably straightforward, martin.

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: Timebandit ]

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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It wasn't a joke? It looked like a pretty immature, sniggery little shot to me. Heywood ran with it...

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It seemed more like an Immelmann roll to me.

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...but he's Heywood -- he can pull it off.

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Originally posted by Timebandit:
And it wasn't my post that missed the comma, it was Papal Bull's - and it wasn't that hard to figure it out with or without the comma. As I said in my last post.

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Nah, I didn't need the comma. It would've been superfluous. I meant it all as a single statement. No real apology; just a short answer.

Cockpit video from a SU-27. It's the Russian equivalent of the F-15 Eagle. The Su-27's basic design is aerodynamically similar to the MiG-29, but it is substantially larger.

Better link here ....

http://www.russiatoday.com/thrilling_videos/news/24196

[ 02 September 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I mean the pilots, of course.

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Originally posted by Jingles:

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This is a good one too:

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Somehow, in a town where smoking makes you a pariah, the [air] show still isn’t seen as anti-social.

The obvious effect is the second-hand screeching; the “sound of freedom,” as pilots joke. According to U.S. Navy figures, from a distance of 500 feet, an F-16 (one of the “acts”) is heard at somewhere between 105 and 130 decibels. Hearing damage begins at 95.

Navy doctors recommend that flight deck crews be exposed to no more than two and a half minutes of sound over 108 decibels to avoid permanent hearing loss. Look around on the Net and you’ll find a few of those crew people’s loved ones airing concerns about exposure to jet fuel: how it lingers in the laundry, how their kids are showing signs of disease or developmental problems.

There’s nothing safe about the fuel after it’s burned either. Depending on thrust and altitude, an F-16 burns anywhere from 200 to 400 kilos of fuel a minute – equivalent to the emissions of several Escalade SUVs burning their entire tanks.

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