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Author Topic: "Kurdish zone not unstable enough": Bush
Cueball
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posted 23 October 2007 11:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When in doubt bomb!

quote:
"It's not 'Kumbaya' time any more - just talking about trilateral talks is not going to be enough," the official said.

"Something has to be done."

While the use of US soldiers on the ground to root out the PKK would be the last resort, the US would be willing to launch air strikes on PKK targets, the official said, and has discussed the use of cruise missiles.

But air strikes using manned aircraft may be an easier option because the US controls the air space over Iraq.



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Cueball
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posted 24 October 2007 03:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bump
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 24 October 2007 03:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who are the PKK?
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Cueball
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posted 24 October 2007 03:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They are a fairly large Marxist based rebel organization operating in Turkey, for the most part.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 24 October 2007 03:47 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't Kurdistan supposed to be the most stable part of Iraq?
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Cueball
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posted 24 October 2007 04:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Right but the Kurds are anation devided between several countries, so while Iraqi Kurds are basking in the light of new found autonomy, many of the Kurds of Turkey who make up by far the largest part of the Kurdish population in total would like to see an independent Kurdish state including parts about 1/5th of what Tyrkey is today.

So, as you can imagine the Iraqi Kurds have a lot of sympathy, and are at least nominally allied with Turkish Kurdish guerillas, so any move against them by US forces in Iraq would likely be very unpopular with Iraqi Kurds.


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kropotkin1951
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posted 24 October 2007 04:06 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
PKK Speaks For Itself

This video is very informative and interesting.

Proof again that one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 24 October 2007 04:46 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So, as you can imagine the Iraqi Kurds have a lot of sympathy, and are at least nominally allied with Turkish Kurdish guerillas, so any move against them by US forces in Iraq would likely be very unpopular with Iraqi Kurds.


So the goal is a united Kurdistan? How much territory would that cover?


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Cueball
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posted 24 October 2007 04:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, let me put it to you this way, it is often said that they are the largest nation without a state in the world.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 24 October 2007 06:58 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well, let me put it to you this way, it is often said that they are the largest nation without a state in the world.

Doesn't that make calling for united Kurdistan kind of like settler rabbis calling for a Jewish state which covers the whole middle east?

Giving the kurds that much land is an impossibility.

[ 24 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 24 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 October 2007 07:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes Zionist have made this connection. And yes Israelis have been working with the Kurds.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 24 October 2007 07:22 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are there any influential Kurdish organizations working to better the lives of Kurds within the countries in which they reside?

[ 24 October 2007: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 24 October 2007 07:26 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And yes Israelis have been working with the Kurds.

Do you mean the Mossad, or just the average Israeli citizen?


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Cueball
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posted 24 October 2007 07:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 24 October 2007 07:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Once again, it's blank...
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Cueball
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posted 24 October 2007 07:36 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well you need flash I think:

You can try this link: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a60_1191797838


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BetterRed
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posted 24 October 2007 08:59 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Im not certain about the country with the most Kurd residents.
I used to think it was either Iran or Iraq.

heh, so the Emperor Chimpendale(the second) will consider bombing his best allies in Iraq in order to appease an nationalist angry NATO ally.


Lest we forget,
Saddam ordered a few Kurd villages gassed to death in 1987...


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 October 2007 09:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I doubt Saddam ordered any such thing specifically. Gas was operational as a weapon on all fronts during the Iran Iraq war. This was operation Anfal, an operation specifically aimed at rooting out Kurds allied with Iran. I am sure the command authority never went higher than the overal commander for the operation. He probably breezed over the front-line reports in cabinet, taking little notice. I doubt that Saddam even heard about it until it became news the world over.

There has never been anything specific saying he said: "Gas Halabja".

[ 24 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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BetterRed
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posted 24 October 2007 09:13 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That may be true.
But there was Chemical Ali, Saddam's right hand man. He was truly responsible for Halabja.

He was sentenced to death a while ago, actually:
From wikipedia:

quote:
On June 24, 2007, the court returned a verdict of guilty on all counts. The presiding judge, Mohamed Oreibi al-Khalifa, told Ali Hassan: "You had all the civil and military authority for northern Iraq. You gave orders to the troops to kill Kurdish civilians and put them in severe conditions. You subjected them to wide and systematic attacks using chemical weapons and artillery. You led the killing of villagers. You ... committed genocide. There are enough documents against you." [17]

Ali Hassan received five death sentences for genocide, crimes against humanity (specifically willful killing, forced disappearances and extermination), and war crimes (intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population). He was also sentenced to multiple prison terms ranging from seven years to life for other inhumane acts.[18] As his sentences have been upheld, Under Iraqi law, sentence is to be carried out by hanging, subject to the convictions being upheld following an automatic appeal, he will be executed within the next 30 days along with 2 others - Sultan Hashem Ahmed, military commander of the Anfal campaign; and Hussein Rashid Mohammed, deputy general commander of the Iraqi armed force, assistant chief of staff for military operations, and former Republican Guard commander.



chemical Ali - a bio of a genocidal maniac

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contrarianna
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posted 25 October 2007 12:12 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the US talk of attacks on the PKK is only talk--designed deflect Turkey, if possible. It is almost certainly only talk because the US is supporting the PKK's terrorist Iranian adjunct, PJAK, in attacks on Iranian targets.
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arborman
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posted 26 October 2007 10:34 AM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The big problem that Turkish Kurds have is that the bulk of Turkey's water and oil are situated in the Kurdish areas. Turkey will never let that go without a fight.
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Cueball
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posted 26 October 2007 11:38 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Turks have an attachement to the land as well. Turkey would be a far smaller without it, economic factors aside.
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Cueball
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posted 26 October 2007 03:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by contrarianna:
I think the US talk of attacks on the PKK is only talk--designed deflect Turkey, if possible. It is almost certainly only talk because the US is supporting the PKK's terrorist Iranian adjunct, PJAK, in attacks on Iranian targets.

Possibly. I also think this may be a situation which is simply beyond the control of the US for various reasons. My view is that the new resolution authorizing the Turkish army to operate in Kurdish Iraq is designed precisely to preassure the US and their Iraqi Kurdish allies into doing something about the PKK bases in Iraq.

If they do not, then Turkey may very well act. This would likely put Iraqi Kurds in direct conflict with Turkey, anyway. The US is not going to be able to get the Iraqi Kurds to do anything effective against the PKK, so that basicly means that if the US wants to prevent Turkish intervention, then it would probably have to do something on its own.

Even posturing sometimes results in concrete action.


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contrarianna
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posted 05 November 2007 09:12 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
US mission accomplished: PKK, PJAK war on Iran
Looks like Turkey will not have much of a target if they attack the PKK in Iraq. The US weapons that have been funnelled to the terrorist PKK and PJAK are being increasingly used for the designated target: Iran.

Turkey has been upset with the US that so many US arms have been captured by Turkish military fromm the PKK. Well it looks like relief is at hand as the PKK moves the focus of its operations into Iran(the PKK has also just released 8 Turkish soldiers).

"Turkish Kurd guerrillas are leaving Iraqi Kurdistan for Iran in order to avoid an attack by the Turkish army according to a former leader of the Kurdistan Workers Party, the PKK.
...
"President George Bush and the Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, are to meet today in Washington to discuss what can be done about the PKK in Iraqi Kurdistan, from which it has been staging attacks on Turkish army units.

The news that the PKK is moving its mobile fighters into Iranian Kurdistan where they have escalated attacks on Iranian government forces further complicates any action against the guerrillas.
....
""There are 2,750 fighters in Turkey," he said. "A further 2,500 are in the border areas of Iraq and 1,500 are in Iran." It is the PKK's war in Iran, where there is a Kurdish minority of four million, that is escalating. "In the last six months the PKK has started a war against Iran."


"There are more and more fighters in Iranian Kurdistan and the Iranian Kurds support the PKK strongly." The shift of part of the PKK into Iran to evade a Turkish military operations and to attack Iranian forces faces the US with a problem. America condemns the PKK when it is killing Turkish soldiers in Turkey as "terrorists", but has not similarly denounced the section of the PKK, known as PJAK, which has killed as many as 150 Iranian soldiers and police in Iran. Iran claims that the PKK receives covert support from the US."
The Independent


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Stockholm
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posted 05 November 2007 09:27 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Apparently Kurds are by the far the largest distinct ethnic group on the face of the earth without a country of their own.

Why not simply carve out the Kurd majority areas of Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Syria and give them a country?


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contrarianna
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posted 05 November 2007 10:29 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who will be wielding this "carving" knife, and will the "carvees" be expected to lie down for this operation?

In Iran, where the United States is waging its terror war by PKK/PJAK proxy (and also by US special ops), the Kurds represent 7% of the Iranian population and are somewhat down the list of ethnic groups who would have an ethnically-based claim to carve up that country (that is, if ethnicity is a justifiable reason for creating a modern democratic state):
"The main ethnic groups are Persians (51%), Azeris (24%), Gilaki and Mazandarani (8%), Kurds (7%), Arabs (3%), Baluchi (2%), Lurs (2%), Turkmens (2%),Laks, Qashqai, Armenians, Persian Jews, Georgians, Assyrians, Circassians, Tats, Pashtuns, Mandaeans, Gypsies, Brahuis, Hazare and others (1%)."


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Noah_Scape
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posted 05 November 2007 10:54 AM      Profile for Noah_Scape     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Awww, wouldn't it be nice for the Kurds to have a little nation for themselves? Too bad they insist on being violent about it - they might get further with diplomacy [in 100 years maybe!].

However, it would be another situation where people are dividing themselves into 'distinctive groups' at a time when the world needs to see the bigger picture, but we are so far from anything like that...

Too much oil in the region, too much pride in Turkey to let part of their rugged soils go, and the label "terrorists" will ensure they never get it.

Another example of the imperial powers of the world dividing up the Arab lands for their own purposes - these Kurds had a traditional area long ago.


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Stockholm
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posted 05 November 2007 10:56 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Turkey and Iran are not Arab countries.
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Frustrated Mess
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posted 05 November 2007 11:25 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why not simply carve out the Kurd majority areas of Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Syria and give them a country?

Why not simply give them Alberta?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 05 November 2007 01:43 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I think Turks have an attachement to the land as well. Turkey would be a far smaller without it, economic factors aside.

Until about 90 years ago they had an attachment (Empire) to most of North Africa, the Balkans, Greece, Iraq, and a number of other areas. They are far smaller without them as well, but they seem to be getting by . But those other countries did not sit on their primary water supply, or the oil.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 05 November 2007 05:42 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why not simply carve out the Kurd majority areas of Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Syria and give them a country?


Why not simply give them Alberta?


Why don't we give the Palestinian rural southern Alberta?


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unionist
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posted 05 November 2007 06:03 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

Why not simply give them Alberta?

What do you have against Kurds?

[ 05 November 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cameron W
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posted 06 November 2007 08:11 PM      Profile for Cameron W   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Why don't we give the Palestinian rural southern Alberta?


Ah, rural southern Alberta. It's been only a month since my wife and I moved out of that interesting area to Vancouver Island. I had some good times out there, but I'm glad to be back on the West Coast.

As for the news story...

quote:
Mr Howard said there was some recent evidence that US forces were making headway in their battle against al-Qaeda in Iraq following the US troop surge.

Oh wait! I'm seeing progress now! We're definitely making headway. I can really see it! Mission accomplished.


From: Left Coast | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged

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