I must admit that I find the Biden pick to be baffling.

Yes, I can see that Obama needed to add some foreign policy cred to the ticket. But Biden wasn't the only option that way.

- Biden doesn't put any new states in play.

- Biden does nothing to address Obama`s other perceived weakness - the lack of executive experience.

- Supposedly Biden`s Roman Catholicism is supposed to help with Reagan Democrats in Pennsylvania and Ohio, but I don`t particularly see it.

Seems to me that at least two other candidates could have done as good a job - or better - of addressing the foreign policy cred, while also bringing executive experience and putting additional states in play.

- Governor Bill Richardson is a former UN Ambassador, so logically has real foreign policy experience as opposed to Biden`s experience on a Senate committee. He has executive experience as Governor of New Mexico. Richardson would also expand Obama`s chances in the sun belt. As a Latino, he strengthens Obama among Latinos. As someone close to the Clintons, he may have some capacity to diminish the PUMAs*. As a former Secretary of Energy, he also brings cred on the biggest current issue in the campaign.

- General Wesley Clark, former NATO Commander. Admittedly military leadership is an unusual form of executive experience, but his is at a much higher level than John McCain's. His credentials also allow him to take off the gloves with McCain to a degree Biden can`t - and it is the veep nominee`s task to be the attack dog. Clark is from Arkansas, which could put at least that state in play, and might sap McCain`s support among veterans. Also with strong Clinton ties, could similarly help with the PUMAs.

I don`t see what Biden brings that either of these can`t equal or exceed. I see lots that either of them bring that Biden doesn't.

Biden being from Delaware doesn't help at all geographically.

McCain can also now run ads with Biden's cutting comments directed at Obama during the primary debates.

Also, here's a run down of his hardline record:

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He is a longtime member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, where he voted against confirmation of Supreme Court Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito and John Roberts. He wrote the Violence Against Women Act, which federalized domestic violence as a crime. He was a proponent of the 2005 charges to bankruptcy law which made filing bankruptcy much more difficult. He voted for the PATRIOT Act in 2001, then argued against renewing it in 2005, before voting for legislation that generally renewed the PATRIOT Act's powers in 2006.

Biden is the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He was an enthusiastic supporter of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and sharply criticized other Democrats who were less supportive or opposed. More recently he has called for "decentralizing" Iraq, a plan that he says would give of its major ethnic groups semi-autonomy, and called for more of a US military presence there.

For decades Biden has been at the forefront of the war on drugs, supporting new prohibitions against methamphetamine, Ecstasy, steroids used by athletes, and other new drugs as they became popular. Biden wrote the legislation that created the position of a national "Drug Czar", and his Anti-Drug Proliferation Act provides 20-year prison sentences for club owners, concert promoters, and people who throw parties in their home, if "drug use" takes place in such settings.

He wholeheartedly supported the actions of federal agents in the Waco standoff, and visibly sneered at witnesses in Senate hearings who questioned agents' acts. He was a key proponent of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act in 1994, which banned some kinds of semiautomatic rifles, with a sunset provision that allowed these weapons to become legal again ten years later. The law also allocated substantial funds for construction of new prisons, established boot camps for delinquent minors, and brought the death penalty for crimes related to drug dealing, civil-rights related murders, murder of a Federal officer, and acts classified as terrorism.

Biden was among those who called for an investigation into the security lapse that allowed a male prostitute with no journalistic credentials to attend Presidential press conferences under an assumed name, as Jeff Gannon, for two years. Later, however, Biden declined to sign on to the proposed inquiry, which never happened.

Over his long career in politics, Biden's biggest financial supporter has been the credit card company MBNA, which has since been swallowed by Bank of America. His son, Hunter Biden, was hired as a management trainee at MBNA straight out of law school, and was quickly promoted to executive vice president. The younger Biden has since left MBNA to establish his own lawyer-and-lobbying firm, but still receives a $100,000 per year consulting fee from the bank. In 2006, Hunter Biden was appointed by President Bush to a five-year term on the Amtrak Reform Board. NNDB

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Biden has 'solid pro-Israel record'

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The head of a major Jewish Democratic organization praised Barack Obama on Saturday for an "outstanding selection" in tapping Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware to be his vice presidential running mate.

"Biden is a strong leader and great friend of the American Jewish community with extensive foreign policy experience and a solid pro-Israel record," Ira Forman, the executive director of the National Jewish Democratic Council said Saturday.

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This is a dream ticket for "progressives" who want to hug themselves over how wonderful they are, then go back to shopping:

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A major feature of this year's campaign season in the US is the American public's thirst for settling scores with the Bush administration's deception of the American people after 11 September, its military adventurism and its application of neoconservative ideology in American policies overseas. The Obama phenomenon feeds this thirst, while the candidate himself, the aspirant to presidential rank and power, benefits from this climate without having to offer anything really new -- apart, that is, from a rhetorical flare that contrasts strikingly with Bush's leaden tongue, and a talent for judicious arguments that never exceed the bounds of political correctness, that pay lip-service to democratic debate but that are carefully pitched not to offend anyone from the right.

He "sympathises" with African Americans out of work and he "feels for" white women who feel threatened by crime. He's smooth. He's very clever at sound bites. He inspires admiration and threatens no one. Vote Obama and win pain-free change. Vote Obama and ease your conscience without the trouble of introspection. Obama: two films for the price of one.

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So, all in all, the Biden choice is a shade on the good side of mediocre, though Obama’s willingness to anoint a senator who voted for two landmark travesties - the Bankruptcy Bill and Iraq War - gives us some disturbing clues about the Illinois senator’s attitude toward the economic progressive movement and the antiwar movement. It also shows how much work those movements have in front of them - and how, in particular, the antiwar movement’s strategy of focusing all attention on Republicans has actually helped create the situation whereby the Democratic Party feels perfectly comfortable rewarding supposed Serious Foreign Policy Voices like Biden even after they voted for the war.

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Originally posted by Malcolm French, APR:
- General Wesley Clark, former NATO Commander.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I would have voted for George McGovern for President even though he voted for the Gulf of Tonkin resolution.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
But, I know, Biden is a social democrat. What small nation will the social democrats bomb next?

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Has anyone seriously claimed Biden is a social democrat?

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Yeah, Biden's a real feminist, all right. Just ask Anita Hill. At the same link, some commentary on his lukewarm support for abortion rights too.

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Is he perfect? Of course, he isn't perfect.

But ...

23rd August, Ellen Malcolm, Emily's List:

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"I applaud Senator Obama’s choice and welcome the addition of such a passionate advocate for women to the Democratic ticket. Senator Biden’s commitment to family will resonate with women voters across this country. His strong commitment to Roe v. Wade sends a clear, positive signal to this critical voting bloc. Together, they will deliver the change that this country so greatly desires."

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USA Today

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Working Mother magazine said Sunday that Biden is one of 24 lawmakers on its "2008 Best of Congress" list. "He puts kids' health, safety and education at the top of his priorities list," the magazine said. It said he has worked recently on a bill to reduce class size and "along with his wife, Jill, Biden has been a longtime leader in the fight against breast cancer."

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It's also interesting that:

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Biden has the lowest net worth of any U.S. Senator. Combined with Barack Obama whose prosperity is a very recent consequence of book sales, it’s definitely a ticket that can argue they have more personal acquaintance with the struggles of middle class American life than John McCain or George Bush or recent Democratic nominees like John Kerry and Al Gore.

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- Biden helps with Catholics (a group that Clinton was consistently winning in the primaries), older voters, and working class voters.

- He'll help win Pennsylvania, he's referred to as "Pennsylvania's 3rd senator", since Delaware is just north of Penn. and his views are frequently covered by Philadelphia media.

- He'll shred whomever McCain picks in the Vice-Presidential TV debate.

Why not Richardson?

The crass reason is that an African-American and a Hispanic on the same ticket might alienate white voters.

Another reason is that he was in charge of the US Dept of Energy when two hard drives went MIA that contained information used to defuse or disable nuclear weapons.

Who else could he have chosen?

Tim Kaine - first term governor of Virginia (Mark Warner was the fellow from Virginia that Obama wanted as his VP option, but Warner didn't want the job)

Rendell/Strickland - governors of Pennsylvania and Ohio (both publically didn't want the job)

Clinton - simply didn't trust her

Salazar - governor of Colorado (see Richardson, reason #1)

McCaskill - female first-term senator from Missouri, same "inexperience" problem as Obama, and as she's not Hillary, Clintonistas would view her as 2nd best

Sebelius - I covered this in the other thread

[ 25 August 2008: Message edited by: Willowdale Wizard ]

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Show me where I ever described Biden as a social democrat.

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Folks in Ontario may recognize the Dalton McGuinty - George Smitherman diad. McGuinty, particularly in the 2003 campaign, took the "high road". He was "positive" and not "negative". Meanwhile, George Smitherman literally posed with pigs to illustarte the Liberals message on Ernie Eves. It worked wonders. McGuinty was praised for being "positive" while running what was, in fact, an extremely negative campaign.

Obama advisor David Axelrod was on the Liberal payroll prior to the 2003 campaign and likes his candidates to campaign from the "high road" while finding innovative way to practice politics as usual.

[ 25 August 2008: Message edited by: Mercy ]

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

You described him as a "liberal democrat", which, according to my observations, is more or less the same thing.

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"hate Dion; love Obama"...

[ 25 August 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
(even though he'd be a Liberal if he were Canadian).

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What I can say is that in terms of public health care, the war in Afghanistan, faith-based social programs, same-sex marriage and merit pay for teachers Obama is to the right of Conservatives.

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Originally posted by Mercy:
In terms of labour legislation he's to the left of the Liberals and some New Democrats.

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Obama’s choice of Biden as his running mate will likely have a hugely negative impact on his once-enthusiastic base of supporters. Obama’s supporters had greatly appreciated the fact that he did not blindly accept the Bush administration’s transparently false claims about Iraq being an imminent danger to U.S. national security interests that required an invasion and occupation of that country. At the same time Biden was joining his Republican colleagues in pushing through a Senate resolution authorizing the invasion, Obama was speaking at a major anti-war rally in Chicago correctly noting that Iraq’s war-making ability had been substantially weakened and that the international community could successfully contain Saddam Hussein from any future acts of aggression.

In Washington, by contrast, Biden was insisting that Bush was right and Obama was wrong, falsely claiming that Iraq under Saddam Hussein - severely weakened by UN disarmament efforts and comprehensive international sanctions - somehow constituted both “a long term threat and a short term threat to our national security” and was an “extreme danger to the world.” Despite the absence of any “weapons of mass destruction” or offensive military capabilities, Biden when reminded of those remarks during an interview last year, replied, “That’s right, and I was correct about that.”

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About what? Who cares - anything but policies. Maybe vicious personal attacks, or racist slurs. Yeah, put some excitement into the circus!

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:

Has anyone seriously claimed Biden is a social democrat?

There may or may not be some social democrats in the the Congressional Progressive Caucus. If so, I doubt any of them said so except Bernie Sanders, and their private views gave them no mandate. And even if there are, has Biden ever been seriously identified as a social democrat?

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The DSA used to have a working relationship with the Progressive Caucus

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Until 1999 the Progressive Caucus worked in open partnership with Democratic Socialists of America. After the press reported on this link, the connections suddenly vanished from both organizations' websites.

As of June 2006, the following Members of Congress belonged to the Progressive Caucus: Neil Abercrombie; Tammy Baldwin; Xavier Becerra; Madeleine Z. Bordallo; Corrine Brown; Sherrod Brown; Michael Capuano; Julia Carson; Donna Christensen; William "Lacy" Clay; Emanuel Cleaver; John Conyers; Elijah Cummings; Danny Davis; Peter DeFazio; Rosa DeLauro; Lane Evans; Sam Farr; Chaka Fattah; Bob Filner; Barney Frank; Raul Grijalva; Luis Gutierrez; Maurice Hinchey; Jesse Jackson, Jr.; Sheila Jackson-Lee; Stephanie Tubbs Jones; Marcy Kaptur; Carolyn Kilpatrick; Dennis Kucinich; Tom Lantos; Barbara Lee; John Lewis; Ed Markey; Jim McDermott; James P. McGovern; Cynthia McKinney; George Miller; Gwen Moore; Jerrold Nadler; Eleanor Holmes Norton; John Olver; Major Owens; Ed Pastor; Donald Payne; Nancy Pelosi; Charles Rangel; Bobby Rush; Bernie Sanders; Jan Schakowsky; Jose Serrano; Louise Slaughter; Hilda Solis; Pete Stark; Bennie Thompson; John Tierney; Tom Udall; Nydia Velazquez; Maxine Waters; Diane Watson; Mel Watt; Henry Waxman; and Lynn Woolsey.

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ETA: The fact that Nancy Pelosi was (at least until recently) a member of the Progressive Caucus suggests that only a minority could really be called social democrats. There have been a few self-identified social democrats elected to Congress such as Ron Dellums and Major Owens, and I'm sure Kucinich would identify as a social democrat as well.

[ 25 August 2008: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

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We don't need long winded policy statements from the left

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
"Show me where I ever described Biden as a social democrat." You described him as a "liberal democrat", which, according to my observations, is more or less the same thing.

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Anyone who has any illusions about either Obama or Biden being a social democrat has been watching way too much American television.

What we should be talking about is this fall's election in Kashmir. Now there's an election whose outcome may actually matter. Both in terms of which parties win, and in terms of the turnout in the Valley. In the 2002 election there were substantial regional variations in turnout, with the Jammu region at 57-60 percent, Kargil and Leh at more than 70 percent, the Udhampur region at 61-63 percent, and Poonch-Rajauri at 48-52 percent, while the biggest region, the Kashmir Valley, had only 28 percent turnout. Within the Valley the worst turnout was in the capital, Srinagar (11 percent), which was attributable to a call for an election boycott by the Hurriyat Conference. India keeps justifying its perpetual refusal to allow the promised referendum on the grounds that voters can, and have, voted in elections. But in the Kashmir Valley in 2002 there were turnouts like 8.1%, 22.1%, 24.1%, 7.1%, 4.8%, 4.7%, 4.2%, 3.2%, 3.1%, 9.9%, 4.0%, 11.5%, 19.2%, 18.1%, 26.9%, 23.4%, 24.4%, 22.9%, 7.2%, 15.3%, 25.4%, and 16.7%. These folks are making their view very clear. Pakistan remains in a state of permanent uproar because their would-be fellow citizens in Kashmir have been denied their rights for 60 years, and the world turns a blind eye.

By contrast, the American beauty contest may put a prettier face on the American war machine, but little else will change. If McCain's face was on it, would the world be a better place, that is, have a better chance of resistance?

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:

By contrast, the American beauty contest may put a prettier face on the American war machine, but little else will change. If McCain's face was on it, would the world be a better place, that is, have a better chance of resistance?

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Very marginally. I expect an Obama victory to be followed by a cleanup of the DoJ, which will then dial back its politically motivated attacks on groups like ACORN. This will leave an small opening for indigenous attacks on the war machine.

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I doubt that we will get much from Obama to inspire working men and women, of whatever part of the country, of whatever age, race, or ethnicity. Now he has chosen a pathetic old hack, Joe Biden, to be his running mate. What exactly has Biden done for workers in his more than thirty years in the Senate? That a man who has been in this elite body (whose members’ stock portfolios have performed better than almost anyone else’s) this long can be called "working class" by Obama himself tell us just how lame U.S. politics are.

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

When did Obama come out against Taft-Hartley?

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I don't think Obama's proposed legalizing secondary strikes or bringing back the closed shop - but has any NDP government done the same?

[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: Mercy ]

I know, I know, it's just superficial and doesn't mean anything, but he just looks like pure joy when he grins. A welcome change after Chimpy Smirk and Penis Cheney's sour expressions. I mean, I don't think Dubya and Penis are ugly or anything. It's not a looks thing, really - it's an openness thing. When Dubya and Penis smile, you get the feeling they're about to do something evil. It's a smirk. When Biden smiles, you feel like it's genuine. Obama's smile is like that too, actually, but it doesn't have the same "wattage" as Biden's.

[/superficial]

[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Mercy:
I was refering to the Employee Free Choice Act which would allow for card check certification of new members instead of forcing a vote. It's something the McGuinty Liberals refuse to bring in.

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Who are these "some New Democrats" who are to the right of Obama on this issue. Even Gary Doer supports card check certification.

As for the Liberals, I wonder if Rae now regrets bringing in card check certification in Ontario (which was of course abolished by the Harris Tories).

[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

As I have not seen his smile I went alooking through google images, to see if he was a spontaneous smiler, or a rehearsed smiler. It seems, to me, he is a spontaneous smiler, with clearly defined and varied facial expressions under any given circumstance, and his wrinkles show it,

And this is a good image of both of them smiling:

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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Joe Biden has not supported an end to the Iraq war or a withdrawal of troops, contrary to media and political propaganda. In reporting Biden's acceptance of the VP spot, major papers such as the Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, and New York Times framed Biden as a fierce "critic" of the Iraq war. However, closer inspection reveals that these claims are false.

Biden has publicly gone on record arguing that Democrats don't have the necessary votes to end the war, even though they clearly do retain the power to end combat operations by voting down funding: "As long as there is a single troop in Iraq, I know if I take action by funding them, I increase the prospect they will live or not be injured, I cannot and will not vote no to fund them."

Biden has historically denounced those who favor immediate withdrawal and an end to Iraq funding: "the hard truth is that our large military presence in Iraq is necessary. They are the only guarantor against chaos. Pulling out prematurely or setting a deadline divorced from progress in the areas I've discussed [throughout the country] will doom us." He warns even more starkly that a premature withdrawal may embolden "the most radical extreme elements of the jihadis," and embolden Saudi Arabia and Syria to continue to fund these groups. Readers could be forgiven for thinking that these comments were made by John McCain or any member of the Bush administration, rather than an "anti-war" Democrat.

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

Who are these "some New Democrats" who are to the right of Obama on this issue. Even Gary Doer supports card check certification.

As for the Liberals, I wonder if Rae now regrets bringing in card check certification in Ontario (which was of course abolished by the Harris Tories).

[ 26 August 2008: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

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Originally posted by Mercy:
Another issue where Obama is potentially to the Left of most Liberals and some New Dems is NAFTA.

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And whether you believe anything Obama says on NAFTA.

I'd point out that my original point - way earlier in the thread - was that on many key issues Obama was to the right of Harper but on some others he was, arguably, to the left of New Dems.

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Joe "Foot-In-Mouth" Biden and Sarah "Abstinence-Only" Palin are perfect matches for the Twin Business Party campaigns for top executive power. Biden gruffly rejects the "liberal" label by reminding reporters he is from a former slave state. Palin appeals to "white America's reptilian brain." The schlock level at both camps gets thicker by the day. Barack Obama morphs politically into his 72-year-old opposite number, joining hands with John McCain as a new convert to the Iraq "surge" that has "succeeded beyond our wildest dreams." - Biden=Palin

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