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Author Topic: MaxSpeak on Outsourcing
Mandos
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posted 15 February 2005 12:45 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An excellent post a year ago by MaxSpeak:
quote:
We do not subscribe to the notion that outsourcing reduces aggregate employment in the long run. Neither does technology or immigration. Rather, the issue is whether better jobs are replaced by worse ones. Better in terms of pay, fringes, working conditions, and job security. More broadly, the issue is whether we are getting more rather than less inequality.

It is easy to rest on the notion that employment always recovers from job losses due to outsourcing. This is tantamount to the idea that a country always recovers from aerial bombing. For families directly affected by outsourcing, there may be no recovery. Families have finite resources and working lives. A financial reversal can have permanet effects. Over and against this, there is the benefit of some minute change in consumer prices. As consumers we stand together, but as wage-earners we hang separately.

Some people defend outsourcing on the grounds that its ill effects could be alleviated by a non-existent safety net. This cold comfort for obvious reasons. We might add that the trend in the Federal budget makes any such safety net ever more unlikely. Nor is the liberal urge to balance the budget helpful in this dimension.



The rest:

http://maxspeak.org/mt/archives/000148.html


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 16 February 2005 09:45 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, the only new part there is the ‘aerial bombardment’ line, so I’ll just answer that. Suffice it to say that it’s a grotesque distortion of just how important outsourcing is in the US labour market.

According the BLS survey on Extended Mass Layoffs (more than 50 layoffs lasting more than 30 days), there were some 240,000 job separations in 2004Q1. For 4,600 of those – that is, less than 2% of those layoffs – overseas relocation was cited as the reason.

If you look at all job losses - and not just the ones involving mass layoffs - outsourcing is even less important. In this recent survey, it’s noted that that if the oft-cited estimate that 300,000 US jobs are lost to outsourcing every year (and there is apparently reason to believe that this is probably an overestimate), this works out to about half of 1% of employment in the nine sectors directly affected by outsourcing. When you consider that roughly 30 million jobs are lost in the US in a given year, that means that 1% of jobs lost in a given year can be attributed to outsourcing – and quite probably less than that.

[ 16 February 2005: Message edited by: Oliver Cromwell ]


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 17 February 2005 12:57 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What effect does the instability caused by offshoring/outsourcing have on the equality picture in those industries in the US? Does it put a downward pressure on wages? If so, how much? Furthermore, is the offshoring trend growing or shrinking, not necessarily in its absolute magnitude, but in its effect on worker stability? Why did DeLong write an article called "Shaken and Stirred" recently? (This last question being the punch line, meaning, of course, that even supporters of neoliberal policy don't seem to think that it has a stabilizing effect on worker security.)

(Which reminds me, I keep forgetting to find a copy of that.)

[ 17 February 2005: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 17 February 2005 01:06 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Haven't read it, either - but I can wait for a few months and read it for free.

Maybe the insecurity has more to do with living in an economy where 30 million people lose their jobs every year. In that context, the 300k lost to outsourcing is hardly worth worrying about.

Offhand, I'd guess that a principle concern would have to revolve around health insurance. If you or someone in your family has a pre-existing condition, losing your job can have drastic consequences. It's true that even more jobs are created, but if your new employer's insurer won't take you on, then you're toast.


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Rufus Polson
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posted 17 February 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So that brings up the question--what *is* happening to all those jobs?
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 17 February 2005 01:49 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Maybe the insecurity has more to do with living in an economy where 30 million people lose their jobs every year. In that context, the 300k lost to outsourcing is hardly worth worrying about.
Note increasing insecurity in sectors of the economy that were thought to be secure.
quote:
Offhand, I'd guess that a principle concern would have to revolve around health insurance. If you or someone in your family has a pre-existing condition, losing your job can have drastic consequences. It's true that even more jobs are created, but if your new employer's insurer won't take you on, then you're toast.
On this note, I notice another surreal aspect to US economic policy debates, even on the 'liberal' end of the spectrum. Cognitive dissonance again, this time in health economics.

http://thelowestdeep.blogspot.com/2005/01/last-thought-on-taxes-and-health.html
http://thelowestdeep.blogspot.com/2005/02/how-elastic-is-demand-for-medical.html

I left a comment in both threads, but a much longer one in the second.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Other Todd
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posted 17 February 2005 05:51 PM      Profile for The Other Todd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Max is a wonderful left economist (even if he is a liberal) and all-around good egg.

I'm happy to see someone else here reads him and likes what he has to say.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 17 February 2005 09:06 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One thing I've noticed is a tendency to confuse "outsourcing" with "offshoring". Out local office is actually quite small and we can't justify our own IT department so we've outsourced it to the consultants down the road. The result is actually better than having our own person because the consulting firm has specialists in every single area that might be affected. By the same token, our payroll/pension/benefits function is being serviced by another local firm - I can't justify hiring two or three individuals with six digit compensation packages to handle payroll.

On the other hand, one of our competitors owns an firm based in India that does almost all of his IT work. He hasn't outsourced anything, he's simply shifted the work to a different part of his company. The fact that it's offshore is the question, not whether it's outsourced.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 17 February 2005 11:16 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The debate over outsourcing has to a certain extent covered over the fact of the de-industrialization of the US.

As a financial commentator pointed out in a Report On Business article, the big three automakers are the last big industry in the US.

When China starts exporting cars, that will be the end of that.

At the same time, I read an article by a software writer in Financial Post who believed his work was secure because he didn't think people in India could figure out how to write software.

Once you've 'outsourced' everything, what do you do to justify your income?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 17 February 2005 11:18 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're confusing 'comparative advantage' with 'absolute advantage'.

[ 17 February 2005: Message edited by: Oliver Cromwell ]


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged

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