Here's a WHO link about the sucess in lowering HIV rates in Uganda:

link

and here's an alternate viewpoint from Avert, with an interesting timeline:

alternate link

highlights of the WHO link: since 1990 condom use has increased from 7% nationwide to 50% in rural area and 85% in urban areas. The proportion of 15-year olds who had never had sex rose from 20% to 50% between 89 and 95. New, better testing clinics and treatment of STD's.

highlights of the Avert link: the actual incidence rate in Uganda may be closer to 17%, with marginalized communities probably hit much harder than is realized.

Study concludes basis of Bush policy apparently irrelevant

Highlight from that article: the biggest factor affecting rates is the death of lots of people with AIDS recently. And since 95 (where the WHO statistics leave off), sexual activity has increased among teenagers again while the infection rate has dropped.

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: vmichel ]

http://remotefarm.techcentralstation.com/061005D.html

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Superimposing maps of prevalence of AIDS on prevalence of Catholicism is enough to sink the link between the Catholic Church and AIDS. In the hospice which is Swaziland nowadays, only about 5 per cent of the population is Catholic. In Botswana, where 37 per cent of the adult population is HIV infected, only 4 per cent of the population is Catholic. In South Africa, 22 per cent of the population is HIV infected, and only 6 per cent is Catholic. But in Uganda, with 43 per cent of the population Catholic, the proportion of HIV infected adults is 4 per cent (9).

In fact, without the Catholic Church the situation might be much worse. The AIDS disaster in Africa weighed heavily on the Pope. Ten years ago he appealed to "the world's scientists and political leaders, moved by the love and respect due to every human person, to use every means available in order to put an end to this scourge" (10). And Catholics have responded.

About 27 per cent of health care for HIV/AIDS victims is provided by Church organisations and Catholic NGOs, as even The Lancet has acknowledged (11). They form a vast network of clinics which reach the poorest, most remote and most neglected people in Africa.

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[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: vmichel ]

A map may show that AIDS is more prevalent in non-Catholic areas. That may show that OTHER Catholic doctrines, such as "monogamy" help in limiting the spread of AIDS.

Since the vast majority of Catholcis do not follow Vatican teachings on sexuality, all these overlay maps tell us exactly nothing.

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Myself, I think the Catholic Church could support both monogamy and condoms. Several other faiths have achieved this difficult intellectual task

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Originally posted by Hailey:

How would you suggest that they teach that people abstain from sex until marriage and then be monogamous within that relationship? If those things were done condoms would largely not be required so why would it be recommended?

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By recognizing that much like the Church itself, human beings are fallible, and should not be condemned to death for their mistakes.

You will (I assume) teach your children to be monogamous and chaste until marriage. I can't imagine you'd think they deserve to die if they didn't follow your teachings. What kind of monster would you be if you did?

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Originally posted by Hailey:
How would you suggest that they teach that people abstain from sex until marriage and then be monogamous within that relationship?

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By recognizing that much like the Church itself, human beings are fallible, and should not be condemned to death for their mistakes.

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That's a point worthy of consideration.

The challenge is that the church sees it as a mixed message. For example, do you tell your child not to use drugs but then give them information on what to do to reduce the risks if they do make that decision.

I don't have the moral clarity on this issue that you hold. I can see both sides.

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You will (I assume) teach your children to be monogamous and chaste until marriage. I can't imagine you'd think they deserve to die if they didn't follow your teachings. What kind of monster would you be if you did?

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Yes, my kids will wait until they are married.
I don't think that anyone who decides to have premarital sex deserves to die. It would be a terribly sad thing for someone to acquire a preventable illness. I wouldn't find joy at the loss of any human life. My children especially but anyone really.

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Humans are fallible. The Church is quite simply evil and objectively disordered. Its leaders should be serving life sentences for their crimes against humanity. And I am absolutely serious about that.

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I guess, RB, and I am not trying to be argumentative that would make sense to me if the church had succeeded with some kind of world-wide boycott of condoms. All that I believe they are doing, however, is talking about what THEY are prepared to advocate and support. They are not preventing others from teaching other methods with their own resources.

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Yes, my kids will wait until they are married.

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Originally posted by Hailey:
For example, do you tell your child not to use drugs but then give them information on what to do to reduce the risks if they do make that decision.

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Yes, absolutely. Keeping people in ignorance is a bad idea.

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Yes, my kids will wait until they are married.

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You hope they will. You pray they will. You will teach them to do so.

And they will, in the end, do whatever they want. Statistically, even among people with your background, more have sex before marriage than don't.

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All that I believe they are doing, however, is talking about what THEY are prepared to advocate and support. They are not preventing others from teaching other methods with their own resources.

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In countries where AIDS is an epidemic, they are indeed doing just that. And worse, they are LYING about condoms' effectiveness. What you are saying is equivalent to saying it's OK to say all homosexuals are predatory child molestors because they are free to deny it.

I don't care what they say in North America and Europe. People have other sources available to them and already know the Church is nothing but a bunch of lying criminals.

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The same people that choose to have sexual relations outside a context that the church supports ...why can't they make the same decision to use birth control without the church's support?

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You hope they will. You pray they will. You will teach them to do so.

And they will, in the end, do whatever they want. Statistically, even among people with your background, more have sex before marriage than don't.

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No, I won't just hope, pray and teach the plan is for me to go on dates with them.

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In countries where AIDS is an epidemic, they are indeed doing just that. And worse, they are LYING about condoms' effectiveness. What you are saying is equivalent to saying it's OK to say all homosexuals are predatory child molestors because they are free to deny it.

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Do you mean the whole message that condoms enhance safety but they can break and there is a mechanical and human failure rate in their use? Well, that's true. There are things people can do to minimize that but it's still a reality.

Or are you talking about the message that condoms are impermeable to the HIV virus because they have tiny holes in them that allow the microscopic virus through? That's definitely ridiculous. I've heard that from protestants directly many times. I've heard that some RC's share that message but I, myself, have never heard that from a RC. For the protestants I've heard it from - they actually believe it. They are not lying in those situations.

Without question a larger organization has more cognitive resources and research abilities to draw on so I can understand that you can't just dismiss it as someone's silly thought. It's much more of a researched decision what to think and say.

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I don't care what they say in North America and Europe. People have other sources available to them and already know the Church is nothing but a bunch of lying criminals.

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Not that it diminishes the responsibility not to lie but it was my understanding that there were other organizations present who were giving alternative information sources. Am I wrong?

And I agree with you the ethical issues would be magnified in a country with fewer information-sources.

As an aside I have never met a RC member who believed that but I have met a number of protestants. With certain specific denomination the church is so weaved into your life that your media information is pretty tailored because of restriction exposure and/or disbelief in secular media's accuracy. I easily know...easily..50 educated people that believe that because they think that the liberal media lies to us. I'd say..rough estimate...easily 70% of our youth group would cite that as true.

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And why can't the Church confine its lies to those stupid enough to be members, instead of trying to hurt innocent people? They do so-called "charity" work to people of all faiths. And why do they persist in lying about condoms? Why can they not simply say, "We believe in monogamy/celibacy, but we recognize that others do not, and those people should minimize the risk by using condoms, because ultimately, despite what RB thinks, we're not a bunch of evil, amoral thugs, but caring human beings?"

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I'm not sure of the full mandate of their charity work. I don't understand why they can't stay silent on the issue. When I've been in situations where someone was doing something I couldn't ethically participate in I didn't tell them untruthful things about it I told them I wasn't able to help them.

[ 30 July 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

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How would you suggest that they teach that people abstain from sex until marriage and then be monogamous within that relationship? If those things were done condoms would largely not be required so why would it be recommended?

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The teaching concerning monogamy is probably helpful in limiting the spread of aids. But it is not sufficient.

It is not sufficient because people will be tempted to have sexual relations with one another outside of monogamy, and in fact will do so. Premarital sex is an obvious example.

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Originally posted by Hailey:
No, I won't just hope, pray and teach the plan is for me to go on dates with them.

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Originally posted by Hailey:
Or are you talking about the message that condoms are impermeable to the HIV virus because they have tiny holes in them that allow the microscopic virus through? That's definitely ridiculous.

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Last time I tried it, condoms hold water pretty effectively. A water molecule is about 0.2 nm in diameter. An HIV virus is about 500 times bigger, at around 100 nm. It's like suggesting that a screen which is impermeable to beach sand might nevertheless allow beach balls to pass through.

[ 30 July 2005: Message edited by: Ron Webb ]

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Originally posted by mimeguy:
The Church recognizes divorce because it had to face the reality that people make mistakes and cannot be condemned to a life of loneliness because of a bad decision when they were young.

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I've written (politely) the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops 3 times on the immorality and anti-catholicity of the condom disinformation campaign.
Take a wild guess as to how many responses I've received

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May I ask if you have ever asked your parish priest?

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I wish the Catholic Church would face reality as often as it faces the Cross. The reality is that most young people won't wait for that "true love one and only" fantasy to manifest itself. It is one thing to trust your children and teach them well but it is a betrayal of this trust to expect them not to make their own judgements when they are old enough to decide.

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I think that when people refer to that choice as a fantasy it gets interpreted as a disdainful regard for it. I am not sure that a church and/or individual faithful RC's or christians who hold those teachings dear are really going to welcome criticism if they believe their own choices are being mocked.

I don't think that any parent doesn't realize that a child will use their own judgement at some point in time around that issue.

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The Church recognizes divorce because it had to face the reality that people make mistakes and cannot be condemned to a life of loneliness because of a bad decision when they were young.

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The Pope has recently re-stated the views of the church on this that make it very clear that people who are re-married or people who are divorced are unable to receive the Eucharist.

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The Church has to face the reality of cultures that oppress women. It should fight ignorance as vigilantly as it fights 'sin'. John Paul II and the Vatican should have spent more time correcting its past mistakes than apologizing for them.

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I am not sure that they define or view oppression as you do.

John Paul II has passed away so I don't have anything condemning to say about him. He's gone.

The church puts a lot of emphasis on reconciliation and seeking forgiveness. That's not just about their mistakes - they encourage it amongst it's members. They struggled with the crisis with child abuse and it was not resolved without significant flaws. Nobody can diminish it. If you referring to something else I am not aware.

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May I ask if you have ever asked your parish priest?

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Hinterland can correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that he's looking for answers that will make him feel better about the whole thing. He is registering his disapproval and demanding change within his church. It seems to me that doing that with a parish priest will get you exactly nowhere.

[Edited because I misread something and added a correction.]

[ 30 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Obviously you were looking for an answer and didn't get a written reply when you asked the right group of people.

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I wasn't looking for an answer, I was looking for a response. Which I didn't get.

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In Uganda, with 43% of the population Catholic, the proportion of HIV infected adults is 4%.

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This is indeed a faulty argument. At one time Uganda had one of the highest rates of HIV in the world. They have successfully lowered their rates, not because they have converted to Catholicism as this would seem to imply but because they have had an openness about the disease that does not exist in many other areas of the world where AIDS has hit the hardest. It would make more sense to argue that areas in the world with larger Jewish populations have lower AIDS rates because being circumsized helps to prevent transmission.

Uganda's rates have dropped largely due to communication. Communication leads to a sense of realism and personal risk and allows for a reduction of stigma, all of which encourage people to take action to reduce their own risk.

One thing that the catholic church does not seem to recognize in its disapproval of condom use is that not all couples are monogamous, even when married. In addition to so many other reasons to support or at least accept condom use, to not allow a partner that believes or knows their spouse is unfaithful and who may not be able to refuse sex is, as others have said, a crime.

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Not that it diminishes the responsibility not to lie but it was my understanding that there were other organizations present who were giving alternative information sources. Am I wrong?

And I agree with you the ethical issues would be magnified in a country with fewer information-sources.

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I think that when people refer to that choice as a fantasy it gets interpreted as a disdainful regard for it. I am not sure that a church and/or individual faithful RC's or christians who hold those teachings dear are really going to welcome criticism if they believe their own choices are being mocked.

I don't think that any parent doesn't realize that a child will use their own judgement at some point in time around that issue.
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The Pope has recently re-stated the views of the church on this that make it very clear that people who are re-married or people who are divorced are unable to receive the Eucharist.

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