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(Moscow) Gay Russia is planning a pride parade in the Russian capital on May 27, 2006 despite warnings from the city's mayor that a permit will not be granted. The group says it is prepared to take the case all the way to the European Court in Strasbourg. Moscow is the biggest city in Europe never to have had a pride parade.

On Tuesday Chief Russian Mufti Talgat Tajuddin said gays could be killed if they go ahead.

"Muslims' protests can be even worse than these notorious rallies abroad over the scandalous cartoons," Tajuddin, of Russia1s Central Spiritual Governance for Muslims, told the Interfax news agency.

"The parade should not be allowed, and if they still come out into the streets, then they should be bashed."

He also said that the powerful Russian Orthodox Church would likely join in protests. "All normal people are going to join it -- Muslims and Orthodox alike," he told Interfax.

Tajuddin said that gays could do what they like behind closed doors but when they become public, "sexual minorities have no rights, because they have crossed the line," he said. "Alternative sexuality is a crime against God."

Moderate Islamic leaders have distanced themselves from Tajuddin's remarks and the Orthodox Church would not comment.

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[ 15 February 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

[ 15 February 2006: Message edited by: Heavy Sharper ]

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HS: Most Russians will join the gay bashers, which can be proven by the fact that they always vote for authoritarian political parties.

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“I someone wants to assert that our values trump someone elses values by saying something like, its ok to make fun of Mohammed because we in the west use jesus as the centerpiece of art and make fun of catholics, by ignoring the fact that making fun of Mohammed is an invasion of the private space of of Muslim people, and by publishing it and forcing them to see it, then why not tatoo numbers on Jews since that is also an invasion of their personal space, and justify that by saying well its quite normal for people to get tatoos these days, so what the fuck.

Even more disturbing, this is coming from a Muslim leader in a society when Muslims are a minority. How close-minded and short-sighted could one be.

Worth to mention that when Vladimir Putin phoned George Buch following the Sept. 11 attack, he expresssed his sympathies Russia's support, adding that "Russians are Christians too".

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Originally posted by BC NDPer:
1. Yeah, yeah, mea culpa - it was me who pulled the trigger - stalking Cueball with his own words (I learned about forum stalking today.)

2. I was offended by his comments (shouldn't we all?), so I committed a little disobedience - better than burning down an embassy, eh?.

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Thanks for reprinting my somewhat overastated allegorical illustration of the existance of personal space as a psychological contruct, not just a material one. Gee how offeneded you are. Should you not be defending my right to freedom of speech, but no, I am being denounced, how typical!

You don't seem to understand. Let me try this another way. Do you walk around your town wearing only a trenchcoat, and then show off your aparatus to women whom you would like to meet? Or do you think that such, even though it doesn't directly harm them physically, or in anyway physically interedict their behaviour is an offence against their right, not to be pyschologically harrassed?

Further, do you think that it is possible, even in our domestic wonderland that violence might be perpetrated upon you, not just by the subject of your, no doubt, friendly advance but by passers-by and even the local police, in the way of making you put away your thing?

[ 15 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:

Thanks for reprinting my somewhat overastated allegorical illustration of the existance of personal space as a psychological contruct, not just a material one. Gee how offeneded you are. Should you not be defending my right to freedom of speech, but no, I am being denounced, how typical!

You don't seem to understand. Let me try this another way. Do you walk around your town wearing only a trenchcoat, and then show off your aparatus to women whom you would like to meet? Or do you think that such, even though it doesn't directly harm them physically, or in anyway physically interedict their behaviour is an offence against their right, not to be pyschologically harrassed?

[ 15 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Everyone, apologies for the thread drift, but if I respond elsewhere I'll be guilty of stalking again.

Para. 1. Your concession re. you analogy genuinely comforts me.

Para 1. You make MY point. If anyone threatened violence against you for your comments it would be a much bigger issue than the comments themselves - I'd be the first to defend your right to say them (as I denounce you) - first year civics concept.

Para. 2. For better or worse (I say better) our society distinguishes between flashers and satirists/artists/entertainers - even bad ones. You want to tear down that wall, I don't. And once that wall is torn down, I really don't know how you plan to distinguish these cartoons with, the Last Temptation of Christ, Will and Grace, Murphy Brown, Teletubbies, NWA - all of which offended other identifiable groups.

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Anyway, I've said this before, but I really (hopefully) mean it this time, Cueball feel free to have the last word, I'm done.

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Toronto, Ontario) Rev. Brent Hawkes, the Toronto pastor who performed a double wedding for two couples at his Metropolitan Community Church in 2001and then went to court when the province refused to register the marriages in a case that resulted in marriage equality across Canada, is now planning his own wedding.

Hawkes and his longtime partner John Sproule got their marriage license Tuesday at Toronto city hall. Hawkes said it was appropriate since it was Valentines Day. The couple plans to wed on March 7, their 25th anniversary.

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Three days after Russia's top Islamic leader called for violent protests against this spring's planned gay pride march in Moscow the country's Chief Rabbi has joined him in denouncing gays.

Rabbi Berl Lazar on Thursday told the Russian news agency InterFax that if the Gay Pride parade were allowed to go ahead it "would be a blow for morality".

Lazar, who also holds US citizenship, did not go as far as calling for violence, but warned the Jewish community would not stand by silently.

[...]

Rabbi Lazar on Thursday said that anything promoting what he called "sexual perversions" does not have the right to exist.

"I would like to assure you, that the parade of homosexuals it is not less offensive to the feelings of believers than any caricatures in newspapers," Lazar said, linking the pride parade with the  current furor over the cartoons of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed published in Denmark.

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[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
It would be nice to hear what the moderate Islamic leaders said when distancing themselves from this guy, but as always nutbar gets the big print.

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Of course the “nutbar” gets the print! If moderate Muslims favor the right to march, what’s the big deal? Who (in their right mind) wouldn’t? It would be like say, “I think motherhood is nice.” Uncontroversial.

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Russia's chief rabbi joins Muslim leader to denounce Gay Pride in Moscow

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

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It is always impressive when a prejudice is underemined by an even deeper prejudice.

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Always heartwarming to see a prejudice defeated by a deeper prejudice.

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Anti-Gay Groups Feud Over Colorado Benefits Bill

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(Denver, Colorado) After being criticized by fellow Christian conservatives for his support of proposed legislation that would give same-sex couples some limited legal protections, Focus on the Family founder James Dobson used his radio broadcast Thursday to fight back.

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Notice how in this second story about domestic Christians, the lead immediatly confirms that there is dissention over the statements being made. It says: "After being critcized by his fellow Christian consevatives..."

Even the headline notes the dissenting voices. This story clearly denotes that there is not unaniminity even among Christian consevatives, yes the story abour Russian Muslim leaders does no such thing until very near the end. The story instead focusses on the most bigotted statements from a single Muslim source, creating the impression that this is a universal opinion., even though th journalist writing it knows that this is not the case.

The Russian story, were it cast in a similar light, might begin:

"Russian moderate Muslim Imams distanced themselves from statements made by Tajuddin, of Russia1s Central Spiritual Governance for Muslims..."

And the headline might be something like: "Russian Muslim Leaders feud over Calls For Violent Protests Against Gay Pride Parade"

Such would change the apparent tilt of the article dramitically, and would be no less true. However, I feel there may be other operational biases here, and I guess we might once again assert, "always heartwarming to see a prejudice defeated by a deeper prejudice," in that the underlying anti-muslim prejudices prevalent in west, also find fertile ground in the way Gay 365 reports Muslim hommophobia and the way it reports it in the Christian community, the "deeper prejudice" being western anti-muslim attitudes.

[ 18 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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...the "deeper prejudice" being western anti-muslim attitudes.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Now lets look at media spin.

Notice how in this second story about domestic Christians, the lead immediatly confirms that there is dissention over the statements being made. It says: "After being critcized by his fellow Christian consevatives..."

Even the headline notes the dissenting voices. This story clearly denotes that there is not unaniminity even among Christian consevatives, yes the story abour Russian Muslim leaders does no such thing until very near the end.

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That analysis fails to recognize that the Christian controvery has had several stories on 365 in the last week, detailing the back and forth of the argument. The lede reflects that ongoing he-said/he-said.

The Muslim angle to the Russia story came out of left field (as far as the 365 news universe is concerned) and so the lede reflects it.

I don't really see the point of characterizing my analysis of potential ethno-racist bias in news reporting as "conspiracy theory."

My deconstruction follows pretty conventional currents in media theory. Of course one comparison does not a trend make, so I accept your explanation, though it does not explain the absence of interviews with the moderate Muslim's mentioned in the close of the article. But there are also several possible logical reasos for that.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
So you really don't think that common attitudes held by the society at large impact on the way gay people think? That they don't share the common attitudes of the society at large?

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I don't think I ever said that. Of course the broader culture has an effect of the attitudes of gay people. Too much so sometimes, if you ask me, but that's another argument.

Most gay people live immersed in str8 culture. There's no getting away from it. So yeah, societal attitudes get transmitted.

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I don't really see the point of characterizing my analysis of potential ethno-racist bias in news reporting as "conspiracy theory."

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You're right. Move to revise and extend my comments in the record to read: "t'aint necessarily so."

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More than anything, I am responding to what I see as disturbing trend toward categorizing Muslim people, Islam and Muslim culture as fundamentally more homophobic than "our" culture in an essentialist way.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:

Yea, and why do they have to have funny names like Lev, Fyodor, Alexander and Vladimir? I hear they have poopy diapers too.

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N.Beltov, do kindly remind your fellow Babblers of the positions taken by Father-One Russia, the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, the Liberal Democrat Party (actually a Nazi party), and Rodina on GLBT issues.

Contrast that position with the far less popular Yabloko and Union of Right Forces. (Hint: The latter two parties support same-sex marriage and equal rights for GLBT individuals.)

I don't think what I've written has anything to do with "funny names" and poopy diapers.

[ 19 February 2006: Message edited by: Heavy Sharper ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I don't think that southern Baptist states are not secular. I am not that familiar with the law. Are they less secular, meaning is there substantially more official integration between church and state than there is in New York?

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Originally posted by Cueball:
I mentioned it because as far as I know there are as many religous people in New York as there are in Georgia. Are we sure that the attitudes about Gay people which we are talking about are not more to do with cosmoplitan attitudes vs. rural ones as opposed to religious differences?

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We started out talking about the nature of the prevalence of homophobia in Islam and in Muslim culture. Now, we're off the to races on relative degrees of cosmoplitanism.

But to get back to the religion thing. I was trying to suggest that in general terms, unless I am wrong, that there is nothing more secular about New York, than there is about Georgia, in terms of the state aparatus that defines the laws.

I said this because you asserted that the Souther Baptists states were not secular, but New York was, and I don't see a basis for that statement.

In my view your point may have some politcal rhetorical value, but little analytic value. Kind of like a good quip at the bar. Such may get you laid but is unlikely to get you married, unless you have something more substantial.

[ 21 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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The powerful Russian Orthodox Church is weighing on the battle between Moscow gays and the city over the holding of a pride parade in the capital this summer.

Alexy II, the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, is backing Mayor Yuri Luzhkov in his refusal to give a parade permit to organizers of the event.

In an open letter Alexy praised the mayor for his decision to "prevent public propaganda for immorality".

The leader of Russia's Orthodox Christians said that a gay pride celebration would harm the family. He said that the Church has "invariably supported the institution of the family and condemns untraditional relations, seeing them as a vicious deviation from God-given human nature."

[...]

[Moscow Pride organizer] Alekseev said that the gay pride march and conference of the International Day Against Homophobia will take place in Moscow as planned for May 26-27.

"Any illegal action by the Moscow authorities to ban the equality march will be legally contested up to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg," he vowed.

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