babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » walking the talk   » feminism   » Finland to Have Female Premier, President

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Finland to Have Female Premier, President
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 14 April 2003 01:50 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I far prefer this to the Bush trifecta.

From the Guardian

quote:
HELSINKI, Finland (AP) - Finland is set to become the first country in Europe to have women serving as prime minister and president after three political parties agreed Monday to form a center-left government led by Anneli Jaatteenmaki.



From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 14 April 2003 02:59 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I do believe that Iceland was the first to democratically elect a female Prime Minister. I'll check it.

See, the Norse were feminsts, some of the first.

Saw a cool Swedish film last night on Televion Ontario.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 14 April 2003 03:32 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yup!

http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2A442534


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Saladin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3663

posted 14 April 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for Saladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am confused? Did not India and Israel elect a woman leader many years before 1980?
From: damascus | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2926

posted 14 April 2003 05:52 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You guys are right, BUT Finland is the first to have females as both Prime Minister AND President serving at the same time.
From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2193

posted 14 April 2003 11:10 PM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmm, how to approach this tactfully....

I think it's great that women have been elected, but the celebrate the first woman President, Prime Minister, whichever, takes away from her election victory. IMHO.

Singling them out as being the first woman anything makes it less of an accomplishment - or that's how I see it.

But then, I'm known to not agree with the femminists on here anyway.


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 14 April 2003 11:37 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am with shelby9 on this one.

Doesn't anyone else think that gender-based labeling is sexist? I do.

It would be sexist if when speaking about a doctor if one were to keep on referring to her as "female doctor" because that implies that it is something unexpected, out of the ordinary. So why politicians? Hasn't society accepted female politicians yet, as we have accepted female doctors?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dr. Mr. Ben
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3265

posted 14 April 2003 11:40 PM      Profile for Dr. Mr. Ben   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not actually sure "our society" (I put that in quotes because I'm not exactly certain who I mean with the plural) has yet accepted female politicians in high ranking positions, so it's probably appropriate to point out when new ground is turned.
From: Mechaslovakia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 350

posted 15 April 2003 10:52 AM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Hasn't society accepted female politicians yet, as we have accepted female doctors?


Given the numbers of women holding elected office in this country, I would have to say no.


From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 15 April 2003 11:31 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First in Europe, maybe. Sri Lanka had that mother-President/daughter-PM thing going for a while.

Edited to remove colons that produced smileys rather than p's .

[ 15 April 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2193

posted 15 April 2003 01:52 PM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is the fact that we have less women politicians in this country due to societal unacceptance, or that the women don't want the job?

My mother has been approached repeatedly to run for office as an MP. She refuses to do it only because she doesn't want to give up her life at home. I can respect that.

Out here, where you'd expect there to be less women in politics, they are everywhere. The Alberta Finance Minister is a woman. As is the Justice (or provincial counterpart) Minister.

If more women wanted to run for office, maybe we'd have more of them. But I can't back that up with any kind of data. Just a thought I had.


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 15 April 2003 02:19 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think it's great that women have been elected, but the celebrate the first woman President, Prime Minister, whichever, takes away from her election victory. IMHO.

Singling them out as being the first woman anything makes it less of an accomplishment - or that's how I see it.


How? How does it detract from what she's won? I mean really. I know it's just your opinion but it sounds like typical "I'm not a feminist but..." claptrap.

I doubt either woman feels less about winning because they are the first women to do something quite impressive. So using some ass backwards anti-feminist rhetoric to put down the celebration of the achievement of two women who will be role models for young women is typical of the piggy back feminist crowd.

It takes a lot of guts, determinations and brains to get anywhere in politics, but as a women it takes a little bit more. More often than not women in politics are attacked based on their looks as often as their views. Their home-life/partners/children or lack thereof are discussed in greater detail than their male counterparts. Also, the "Boys Club" still exisits, and women haven't manged to create and equally powerfully network. Maybe it has something to do with so many women claiming not to be feminists but taking advantage of all the hard work.

quote:
Is the fact that we have less women politicians in this country due to societal unacceptance, or that the women don't want the job?

I can't believe this is even a serious question. By suggesting that "women" don't want the job is a sexist generalization about what women want to do with their lives, that as a gender we some how don't want to run for office. That is more sexist than taking note of a women’s achievement in a male dominated field.

No one is suggesting that we keep calling them pair of them “The Female PM” or “The Female Premier”. Anymore than society calls female doctors, female doctors anymore.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3790

posted 15 April 2003 02:25 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Examine the case of France then. Intent on increasing the amount of women who ran for office, they imposed mandatory quotas (something like 25% of candidates had to be women) and women jumped at the chance. Now, their female participation rate in politics is higher than ever.

I think it is rather narrow to say that since women are allowed to run for office, they don't because they don't wanna. This underestimates a tremendous amound of sociological force which acts against women becoming politically active.

Pointing out a special case or three doesn't really normalize the fact in question.

Congrats to Norway. And BTW all, it said in the original quote that Norway was the first European nation to have female President & PM.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2193

posted 15 April 2003 04:54 PM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To my ears, it sounds like less of an achievement to point out that it was a woman who won the election. Footnote it, definitely, but to announce it like it's some great achievement in fact does the opposite. It makes it less of an accomplishment AND it makes it sound like she won BECAUSE she is a woman. I presume she won the election fair and square, on policy etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that she won. But - tout her accomplishment, not her gender! That's what bothered me.

I don't know if we want to go the way of France and put a quota on how many men and women can run for office, no more than I don't think we should put a quota on how many men and women can work in any given workplace. Nor should we be putting a quota on the number of visible or ethnic minorities in any given workplace. But I know the "best person for the job" theory isn't always a popular one.

And why can't that be a serious question, whether or not our lack of women politicians is due to societal unacceptance or personal preference? Is there data to refute it as such? I was mearly pointing out the one case I knew about. Why don't more women in Canada run for office? Are they afraid to win, or lose?


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 15 April 2003 05:09 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So using some ass backwards anti-feminist rhetoric to put down the celebration of the achievement of two women who will be role models for young women is typical of the piggy back feminist crowd.

plonk


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 15 April 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can see both sides of it, shelby. I do see what you mean she won because of her policy, etc, and we have people pointing out immediately "A WOMAN, at THAT!"... I can see how that is sexist in and of itself.

However, it is rare for a woman to be head of state, so, it's noticed and pointed out... only natural.

And, it's cool to have a female leading a country, I believe any way, just on the face of it, it's a good message to other women that they can do it. However, I would need to see her policy before I would endorse her leadership.

It is an interesting issue.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 16 April 2003 04:11 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow. I have been plonked by a man in the feminism thread. I must be doing something right.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
itchy
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3810

posted 16 April 2003 04:08 PM      Profile for itchy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
wow you guys got some nerve!

i keep seeing it here over and over and over again: men assuming they can tell women what is and what isn't sexist. men assuming they can tell women was is and what isn't feminist. can you imagine a white person telling a person of colour what is and what isn't racist, or what it's like to be racialised? if you can relate to that or think it's cool, you need to take a loooooong look in the mirror, my friends. if not, then why do you think it's cool to do it women. i shake my head and wonder how much further women's emancipation would be along if men just stopped getting so self-righteous and defensive and just shut the fuck up and listened for a change. i know i need to do that more often.

but still, you guys got a lot of nerve. and rolling your eyes when a woman tells you you gotta check your shit. that takes the cake.


From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 350

posted 16 April 2003 04:26 PM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 16 April 2003 04:27 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
bevy
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3778

posted 16 April 2003 04:50 PM      Profile for bevy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have to say that I totally agree with Scout. It constantly amazes me that here, in a feminist forum, people are still pandering to male ego. It's stupid to assume that women are accepted as politicians - especially since we are lacking in so many female politicians (this has been mentioned in previous threads) Its just as stupid to assume that it's because women don't want to. Or can't. I once worked as a construction worker. I was the only woman on site out of about 100 (varied depending on what was happening on the site) workers. There was no bathroom for me and i didn't get paid as much as the men. I did as much work as the men - if not more as i had to "prove" myself. I had a constant line of men coming by and checking me out. I loved that job but i hated the atmosphere, i hated having to go to another location to use the bathroom and i wanted equal pay and respect. I ended up leaving it because of all that crap. And people often make the assumption that women just don't want to do construction - obviously there are just alot of hurdles to go through and it's a little overwhelming to break into a field prominately "owned" by men. The same goes with politics and so many other fields.

oh, and yeah itchy!


From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
angela N
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2705

posted 16 April 2003 06:11 PM      Profile for angela N   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
indeed!!!
From: The city of Townsville | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
beibhnn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3178

posted 16 April 2003 06:21 PM      Profile for beibhnn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just for the record... some feminists (like me) think that feminism is a broad ideology subscribed to by those with a particular attitude regardless of their gender. (So yes Virginia! There is the possibility of a male feminist!) There's more than one woman on this board who has declared herself to not be a feminist and more than one man who has said he is (and has backed it up with feminist laden posts and respected requests for a more balanced female/male posting ratio). And racism is an ugly attitude that no ethnicity/race has a monopoly upon.

BUT... from what I understand the babble feminist forum is supposed to be a safe place for feminists (predominantly women) can engage in a discussion without being shouted down. This means respect and a lack of roll-y eyes and plonking without cause, especially from those who are tourists, no?

So why the all hostility, especially on a motherhood (pun intended) issue like whether or not it is good to say "yea! another female first in finland!"


From: in exile | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 16 April 2003 10:06 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
wow you guys got some nerve!
i keep seeing it here over and over and over again: men assuming they can tell women what is and what isn't sexist. men assuming they can tell women was is and what isn't feminist. can you imagine a white person telling a person of colour what is and what isn't racist, or what it's like to be racialised? if you can relate to that or think it's cool, you need to take a loooooong look in the mirror, my friends. if not, then why do you think it's cool to do it women. i shake my head and wonder how much further women's emancipation would be along if men just stopped getting so self-righteous and defensive and just shut the fuck up and listened for a change. i know i need to do that more often.

but still, you guys got a lot of nerve. and rolling your eyes when a woman tells you you gotta check your shit. that takes the cake.


Excuse me, but since when does racism only become racism if it is white people opressing non-whites??? You think that there is no racism against whites? Why don't you ask some white people from Zimbabwe what it is like? Or perhaps here in Canada, do you know what it was like to be of slavic origin during the era of McCarthyism?

Similarity, Trinitty hit the nail on the head- it is a wonderful accomplishment, but why is it necesary to cheapen it by acting like it is such a big deal that it is a woman.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hankerin' Tom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3945

posted 16 April 2003 10:21 PM      Profile for Hankerin' Tom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gir!! i cannot believe you, those white people in Zimbabwe are the result of racist policies so the racism that the Mugabe regime has engendered is far more acceptable.

That being said i think it is quite nice that women are finally getting into high political offices. I hope she has a successful and competent term (not that women are incompetent but it seem the earth is famous for its incompetant leadership).

[ 16 April 2003: Message edited by: Hankerin' Tom ]

[ 16 April 2003: Message edited by: Hankerin' Tom ]


From: The Heartland | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 350

posted 16 April 2003 10:47 PM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
BUT... from what I understand the babble feminist forum is supposed to be a safe place for feminists (predominantly women) can engage in a discussion without being shouted down. This means respect and a lack of roll-y eyes and plonking without cause, especially from those who are tourists, no?

Indeed. This WAS the idea. They don't seem to get it, though.


From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 17 April 2003 01:23 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
wow you guys got some nerve!

Any chance you mistook shelby9 for a man? If not, then to which 'guys' are you referring? Gir Draxon agreed with her... is that it? Is it Saladin, CyberNomad, or Dr. Mr. Ben, who simply tried to remember which other countries had female leaders in the past?

quote:
and rolling your eyes when a woman tells you you gotta check your shit. that takes the cake.

Actually, kropotkin1951 rolled his eyes when Scout told shelby9 that she hadda check her shit.

quote:
Indeed. This WAS the idea. They don't seem to get it, though.

Check the profiles of all the posters on this thread & tell me if you still feel overrun.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 350

posted 17 April 2003 10:14 AM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
shelby9 is not the problem here. Sure, we disagree, but that's OK. It's her cheerleaders we could do without - esp the plonking. I was intending to reply to her post but decided I didn't want to engage in that kind of discussion. No point.

It's not so much this thread than the pattern we see running through a lot of the threads in the feminist forum. Male posters (some well meaning, some not) tend to take over, derail and dominate threads. It's been going on for ages and although many of us point out the pattern on a regular basis, they don't seem to be able to help themselves.


From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 826

posted 18 April 2003 02:46 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's an idea, why don't we just ignore the eyerolling, plonking (whatever the hell THAT is, anyway) and such, and actually talk about it???

I think it's an interesting issue. I don't ever flinch at saying I'm a feminist, and I detest labels... YET, I think what shelby said is interesting.

Is there a way that we can celebrate women advancing in democratic politics without it being head-patting in it's very nature?

I know that I've felt that way working on the Hill, the, "Look, you've done so well for yourself, and your a GIRL!" and that really pissed me off, it shouldn't be an issue.

YET, there aren't many women in politics.... so, the attention.

See what I mean?


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 350

posted 18 April 2003 06:07 PM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think we have to recognize that the political playing field is not yet level, that there are many barriers to women participating in electoral politics. The reason we celebrate the achievement of women who get elected? Because the barriers are considerable; political women often do have to make sacrifices and difficult choices (I can think of at least one MP with a special-needs child... we don't hear much about how difficult this is but I am constantly amazed by her), suffer harassment and discrimination, shout to make themselves heard. Sure many women choose not to run - because we don't have a structure that supports women's participation. Hell, isn't one of Alexa's stories that there wasn't even a washroom for women legislators when she started in Nova Scotia? "Personal preference" is, to a great extent, predetermined by societal structures that make being involved in politics, for many women, a superhuman effort.

We're not yet at a point where we don't require measures to eliminate the barriers and expose the often-subtle forms of discrimination that keep women out.

We had a great forum in Regina a couple of years ago, in conjunction with Federal Council, where we talked about these barriers. We also talked about some ways we could address the serious lack of gender balance in our system - like France's 50/50 solution.


From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1331

posted 18 April 2003 07:29 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Ireland did also a while back.

But hope she is more Alexa McDonough-like than Margaret Thatcher-like.


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
vickyinottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 350

posted 19 April 2003 01:59 AM      Profile for vickyinottawa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mary Robinson was President of Ireland when I lived there. I think she rocks.

More about her later. time for sleep now.


From: lost in the supermarket | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
shelby9
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2193

posted 19 April 2003 05:10 AM      Profile for shelby9     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yup, I'm a woman. Nope I don't consider myself to be a feminist.

I DO however have respect for all humans, my gender included. I find my opposing view on feminist issues sometimes generates interesting topics and discussions. My apologies if I have offended anyone.

Ok, so how do we get more women into the political arena? Personally, I have no answer for that. But I don't think that enforcing a quota system on elections is the way to do it. It's not an achievement then, it's a win be default.


From: Edmonton, AB | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2777

posted 19 April 2003 09:30 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just to note the article says that Finland is the "first country in Europe" to have a female president and prime minister.

Even better...this is a "centre-left" government that is a coalition of the Social Democratic Party, Centre Party and Swedish People's Party. (Finland has a significant Swedish ethnic minority).

If Canada went to a proportional representation system using party lists, it would go along way towards addressing the gender imbalance in the Canadian parliament (along with all of the other imbalances)


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 20 April 2003 01:27 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A handy little chart detailing how many women were elected in each of Canada's federal elections, versus how many actually ran. For example, in the last election, 373 women ran, and 62 were elected.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1331

posted 22 April 2003 03:54 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The CCF/NDP track record does not look as good as the Liberals. What percentage of total Liberals elected would that be?
From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca