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Topic: "Ma'am yes ma'am" and how can I avoid a "Ms.take?"
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Skinny Dipper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11459
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posted 05 February 2008 02:03 PM
I can't remember if this topic has been discussed before but is it appropriate to say to an unknown woman, "Yes, ma'am" or "Yes, madam?" It's easy to say, "Yes, sir" to a man.On another topic of avoiding a Ms.take, I usually say "Ms. Smith" if I do not know the woman's title. If she prefers Mrs., Miss, Ms., Dr. or some other title such as Sister Maria or Mother Mary, I will call her by that title. What does one call a young woman or girl under 18 years old if her last name is used?
From: Ontarian for STV in BC | Registered: Dec 2005
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bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938
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posted 05 February 2008 06:29 PM
Here's a story. The first time I was called "miss" by a stranger younger than me (I was working in retail, in my mid 20s and this was a customer, probably around 18 or 19) I smiled to him, but silently flipped out. My own ageism I guess.Then, the first time I was called "ma'am", in my mid to late 30s I again did an internal flip out, and I actually felt reminiscent of the time I was called "miss". I never thought that would happen! So there you have it. The dreaded "miss" is preferable to the detestable "ma'am". By me anyways. And the truth is, there are no other choices for women so I don't freak out on the sweet young things that call me either, internally or externally, anymore. I think sticking with Ms. is a good fallback position.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005
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Indiana Jones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14792
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posted 06 February 2008 05:23 AM
What WOULD you prefer in a spoken (not written) situation? I agree that "miss" seems very young but on the other hand "ma'am" seems very old. There doesn't seem to be much in between. In written communications to a woman, if I'm not using her first name, I'll always use "Ms." unless I know that she is an M.D., Ph.D, etc. in which case it will be "Dr. ____".I also hate being called "sir" since it makes me feel quite old but, again, if someone doesn't know my name, I'm not sure what else they'd call me. I'm still getting used to being introduced to people as "Dr.____" and I think that sounds sorta pretentious.
From: Toronto / Brooklyn / Jerusalem | Registered: Dec 2007
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 06 February 2008 06:01 AM
Ms sounds 1978? Weird. I just find it sounds normal. In the work settings I've been in, it's "Mrs." or "Miss" that sounds antiquated.At one place where I worked, we had a database with our membership in it. There were three options for salutations: Mr. Ms. Dr. That's it. We never had requests from anyone to call them "Miss" or "Mrs." It was just assumed that we don't give a flying fuck what their marital status is, and they're automatically a Ms. or Dr. if they're female. Now that my son is in school, I'm always amazed at the way pretty much every teacher he's ever had gets the kids to either call them "Miss So-and-so" or "Mrs. So-and-so". Maybe I run in completely different circles than, oh, say, every female elementary school teacher on the planet (it would seem), but I hardly know any women my age who get people to call them "Miss" or "Mrs." I understand the desperate need, right after you're married, to flaunt your ring finger, take his name (I changed my name, but I'll never do that again - actually, I'll probably never get married again either), and brand yourself forever his property to every stranger you meet by calling yourself "Mrs." (something I never did, and politely corrected anyone else who did so), but I didn't think so many women were buying into it these days. I guess old customs die hard. [ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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rural - Francesca
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14858
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posted 06 February 2008 06:18 AM
My daughter (18) prefers Ms and I've used it for years, and it's my default when writing letters etc.I hate, CAPITAL "H" HATE, being called a girl. I had a boss (female) tell me I was a "good girl" for getting something right once, I was really annoyed. She was really stunned. I find it demeaning. I prefer "Ladies". Teen boys who madam me in customer service rolls get "sir" back, and we make it funny. But I also find women in customer service rolls just don't use any declaration at all
From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007
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oldgoat
Moderator
Babbler # 1130
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posted 06 February 2008 08:02 AM
You can go back a lot earlier than the '30's, and refer to someone as "citizen". I used to work with young people, and quite often in high schools. There was some pressure toward calling me Mr. ____, but I always preferred my fist name, Frank. At my sons school in grade 8, one of my his friends got in mild heck for using my first name. She was instructed to call me Mr. ____. I agreed out of fairness to call her Miss. ____ in school, and we could call each other whatever we liked away from school. She took to calling me cranky Frankie. Still does, and she's in university now. I've used the term Ma'am, as in "please Ma'am may I have another", but only under fairly specific circumstances. I prefer the less formal terms of endearment I get at home from my family, like "ya clapped out old husk"
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sharon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4090
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posted 06 February 2008 09:03 AM
I honestly don't care much what people call me if they're people I don't know or I'm not going to see again. If I am going to see them again, I ask them pretty quickly to call me "Sharon."I don't have the same name as my husband so calling me either Mrs. His-name or Mrs. My-name is inaccurate and if it happens on the phone, I know for certain that it's a telemarketer. My son is in French immersion so all the teachers (except for a couple who preferred their first names) have been Madame -- no matter what their age or marital status. [ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: Sharon ]
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003
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Indiana Jones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14792
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posted 06 February 2008 09:47 AM
quote: Originally posted by Sven:
No doubt. I never call a physician, dentist, vet, or Ph.D. "Dr.". They call me by my first name and I do the same.I have a nephew who is a newish dentist and he actually signs his checks "Dr. _________ ________". I kid him, "Is 'Dr.' your first name and is __________, what I previously thought was your first name, actually your middle name?!?!"
Yeah, and I'm not an MD, so you're not really addressing me in any sort of sense where me being a doctor is in any way relevant. I think my boss jsut likes to impress clients by pointing out that we've got a Ph.D. working on their project. Actually, when my wife got her doctorate ahead of me, she did insist that I only address her as "Dr." for a week and made sure someone sent us a letter addressed to "Dr. and Mrs. Rebecca _____" (last name).
From: Toronto / Brooklyn / Jerusalem | Registered: Dec 2007
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Indiana Jones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14792
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posted 06 February 2008 10:45 AM
quote: Originally posted by Michelle: Ha! That's funny. Although I think it would've been better to get someone to send a letter saying Dr. and Mr. Rebecca _____.
wait! yes, that's exactly what it said. "Dr. and Mr. Rebecca ____", her being teh doctor, me being the mr. On a side note, my mother is an MD and my dad is a dentist and she would get infuriated whenever a letter (usually an invitation to something)would arrive addressed to "Dr. and Mrs. David _____". She figured that not only was she also a doctor but more deserving of the title as an actual MD.
From: Toronto / Brooklyn / Jerusalem | Registered: Dec 2007
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rural - Francesca
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14858
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posted 06 February 2008 10:56 AM
quote: Originally posted by Indiana Jones:
Yeah, and I'm not an MD, so you're not really addressing me in any sort of sense where me being a doctor is in any way relevant. I think my boss jsut likes to impress clients by pointing out that we've got a Ph.D. working on their project. Actually, when my wife got her doctorate ahead of me, she did insist that I only address her as "Dr." for a week and made sure someone sent us a letter addressed to "Dr. and Mrs. Rebecca _____" (last name).
Hence my confusion
From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 06 February 2008 02:57 PM
quote: Originally posted by torontoprofessor: On the other hand, my undergraduate students would probably think I was a bit weird if I took to addressing them as "Ms Smith" and "Mr. Jones" or "ma'am" and "sir", even though they address me as "Prof. X" or just "professor".
If you're looking for advice, I'd stick to "Ms Smith" and "Mr Jones". If that makes you weird, so be it. ETA: Alternative suggestion: Do what I do. Call them "Sister Smith" and "Brother Jones". [ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323
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posted 06 February 2008 03:23 PM
quote: Originally posted by Accidental Altruist: My 13 year old daughter seems to have no problem calling both males and females: 'dude'.
"Howdy, dude!" [ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005
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Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972
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posted 06 February 2008 03:38 PM
Oh, shit. I just noticed that this is the FF.Sorry, but I'm not permitted to post here. ETA: I'll be a good "boy" go back and delete all of my (presupposed) offensive posts in this thread. [ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005
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rural - Francesca
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14858
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posted 06 February 2008 05:57 PM
quote: Originally posted by Sven: Oh, shit. I just noticed that this is the FF.Sorry, but I'm not permitted to post here. ETA: I'll be a good "boy" go back and delete all of my (presupposed) offensive posts in this thread. [ 06 February 2008: Message edited by: Sven ]
Dude!
From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007
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RosaL
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13921
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posted 06 February 2008 07:45 PM
quote: Originally posted by Michelle:
Women's Studies professors get around that by introducing themselves using their first names, inviting the class to use their first names, and then using everyone else's first names. But then, Women's Studies tends to be ideologically much more egalitarian a discipline.
The same practice obtained in my computer science department! I don't know whether computer science is ideologically egalitarian or not
From: the underclass | Registered: Mar 2007
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Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335
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posted 06 February 2008 08:59 PM
quote: Originally posted by unionist: I'm getting old. Someone explain to me what's wrong with using surnames for everyone?
Simply using surnames (Smith, Jones, Gupta) for everyone is exactly as egalitarian as using first names (Chris, Pat, Anil). Using title + surname (Ms Smith, Mr. Jones, Dr. Gupta) is, arguably, less egalitarian than simply using surnames or simply using first names, since titles carry differential social weight. I have an acquaintance who took a course where the professor insisted that everyone address each other in class by surname alone, with no title, himself included. Maybe he wanted a combination of egalitarianness and formality (first names being too informal, I suppose, for his tastes).
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006
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rural - Francesca
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14858
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posted 07 February 2008 03:58 AM
quote: Originally posted by unionist:
I'm getting old. Someone explain to me what's wrong with using surnames for everyone?
Because it's not mine. (settle in - it's a story) I was born: Francesca Barker, having been unnamed for 4 days as my feuding parents couldn't agree, as I was not the boy they were expecting. A mutal friend suggested Francesca, and thus the heavy name became mine. At age 7 my mother remarried, yeah first one lasted until I was 10 months old, go figure, and my 'step'father wanted to adopt my older brother and I. (should fill out story, mom was 18 when older brother was born, 11 months later I came along, it was the 60"s) So for some strange reason, under British law (where I was born) the children had to consent to the adoption. At the age of 7 I said no. So my mother pointed out that this would be the opportunity for me to have a middle name. You see my brother had one, and I did not, and it bugged me. So I got to pick my middle name. Thus I became: Francesca Tracey Cox. Growing up with Cox as a last night was not pleasant as we all know how mean children can be. So when I got married (pregnant) at 19, I took my husband's name. More to get rid of one I didn't like than for romantic reasons (which pissed him off because he would brag about me taking his name despite my feminist views, and I would correct him as to why). So keeping track I became: Francesca Tracey Dobbyn That's the third last name, if you're keeping score. I ditched the husband in 1995, and picked up my a common law husband (there were on sale). I then began to gain success in my career and was making a very public name for myself. My ex-husband did a "nah nah you're doing it with MY (as in his) name". So being equally childish, I spoke with my second hubby and he was cool with me attaching his last name to mine, so was the bank! As long as I had the core of my legal name, anything else was cool. So I became Francesca Tracey Dobbyn-Nadjiwon, (second hubby was Native). When he and I split 6 years later I just dropped the Nadjiwon from my name and there was enough distance that it didn't bother me to be just "Dobbyn". Now why haven't I gone with a completely new name? Because I was once on a naturalist trip and a women keeled over with grand mal seizures. It took 40 minutes for an ambulance to reach us. She survived (scariest hour of my life - she stopped breathing on us 3 times) and as we went through her purse looking for emergency contact information, no one in her date book matched her name. Well after her divorce she'd gone back to her mother's maiden name. So with young children I wanted anyone who came across them, to be able to find me strictly by last name association. Now there is a plan, and I've checked it out. Once my children are out of the house, and stop coming back, she's 18; he's almost 22, then I"m going to drop "Dobbyn" and go with Tracey as my last name. I've already checked it out with the government and they don't care. I'll probably wait until I switch jobs or something, to make it easier, but I'm really looking forward to it. That way my name is mine, and I got to pick it. So yeah, names are important, as they are very much a part of my identity. Those that insist that I use my last name, get bored with this story. My first name is unique enough that the local radio media just uses my first name, and everyone knows who it is. Freaky quick story. Last January, in a bid to win tickets to see Luba Goy at the Wiarton Willie Festival, I called into the radio station and so did the only other Francesca who lives in this region. Totally freaked everyone out. I'm mean you never get two Marys calling in, or two Larrys, but to get both of us....we all bought lottery tickets.
From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007
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