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Topic: The new Israel-Lebanon news thread
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 18 July 2006 04:45 PM
I'm just looking at the proliferation of news threads on Israel-Lebanon, and I just know that whichever one I choose to leave open, people from one side or the other will get mad at me for choosing one with a title that favours the other side. There were several long ones I closed, and another one has become a hissy fit about Nazi comparisons, so I won't bother leaving that one open.So, I'm going to close all of the threads that are concerned with direct news stories out of Israel so that I don't piss anyone off by choosing the wrong one to leave open, and this can be the thread where you can post news stories about the conflict and discuss them. I'll leave the images thread and the one about the US religious groups' reactions open since those really are separate angles, and I'll leave the one about George Bush's statement caught on tape open as well if people want to discuss that. But please, PLEASE don't start a new thread every time you read a news story about this conflict. It really clutters up Today's Active Topics and this forum, and it splinters the conversation.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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cdnheatwave
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12912
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posted 18 July 2006 04:49 PM
quote: Harper refuses to budge on support for Israel PM unwavering in support despite appeals to moderate stand JANE TABER From Tuesday's Globe and Mail ST. PETERSBURG — Prime Minister Stephen Harper refused Monday to budge in his support for Israel and its response to the deepening crisis in the Middle East, despite criticism from opposition MPs and Lebanese Canadians that he should have appealed for restraint and moved faster to evacuate Canadians from Lebanon. Mr. Harper said the conflict is the result of the fact that there is no Middle East peace process because "the current Palestinian government is not committed to a peace process. "Secondly, there is an immediate crisis because of the actions of Hamas and the actions of Hezbollah," he said, referring to the radical Islamic movement that controls the Palestinian Authority and the Shia Muslim group that controls much of southern Lebanon.
At last Canada has a PM willing to stand up for the values of civilization that have made us a great country, and will again make us great. For too long, mealy-mouth moral equivalence has ruled. Even now, Bob Rae, a great Premier has suggested that the right path to follow is the one laid by Lester Pearson as a "peace broker", and to follow the UN right down the line. This is the same UN where Kofi and his son have enriched themselves at the expense of taxpayers of the contributing countries, and that funds kleptocratic dictators worldwide. While Harper (and for that matter leaders of similar quality such as Bush, Blair and Howard) have not withdrawn from that sinkhole on New York City's East Side (the UN), they are wise not to follow its lead. Imploding the UN building, or turning it into housing for New York's poor can await another day. Hezbollah and Hamas, quite frankly, have no plan whatsoever for the economic development of the Israeli land they covet. While the Israelis have been busy at work making the desert bloom (remember, they could easily have played "victim" in the wake of WW II), they have chosen to farm, develop hi-tech industry, and create a civil culture and a democracy. Israelis do not strap bombs onto their children for the sake of maximizing the death toll of Arabs. Even now, you're not hearing of Beirut going up in flames. Contrast tactics of Hezbollah and Hamas. Indiscriminate pizza parlor bombings, attacks on religious ceremonies (a Bar Mitzvah in Turkey comes to mind), attacks on discoteques (sp). Israel's tactics are lightning and precision. Civilian casualties, while they occur, are truly minimal. Can you imagine Israel imitating the tactics of a suicide bomber in Iraq, where he detonates himself under a gasoline truck making a delivery near a mosque's religious school. Do these people know, or care, who they're killing? For once, Harper is on the side of Western democracies. The question should not even be a close one. [ 18 July 2006: Message edited by: cdnheatwave ]
From: Scarborough, ON | Registered: Jul 2006
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 18 July 2006 08:15 PM
The Prime Minister, asked about his unquestioning support for the Israeli bombing of civilians in Lebanon and Gaza, said that things had changed since his previous comments. The Prime Minister didn't actually criticize Israel, mind you. One would think that those Lebanese Canadians were killed by a tsunami or an act of God - for all the PM did in identifying the cause of their deaths. However, in reply to another question the PM said that "...once a conflict starts, escalation is inevitable." The actions of governments, especially one that has been occupying the territory of its neighbours for decades, isn't spontaneous and accidental. These things are measured. Escalation is a calculated decision - not an emotional outburst. So, going from Harper's remarks - Does that mean the PM thinks that Israel shouldn't have nuclear weapons, for fear that Israel will use them? Alas, no. It means that he thinks that escalation is what ought to happen. - especially when he's on the side of the occupier and the stronger military power. Escalation ensures that the stronger power "wins". Cooler heads prevailing? Not a chance in the nether world of neocon supporters of US imperialism and its client states. War is what they want.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427
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posted 18 July 2006 10:51 PM
Exactly the methaphor I've been thinking for, with all the "it's hezbollah's fault" cries.However, to be perfect, the wife have to have cleaned the husband's clock the last time he hit her, so he beats the kids instead.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 19 July 2006 05:49 AM
Flora MacDonald, former Progressive Conservative foreign minister, was on the CBC this morning. In contrast to the new Conservatives, the neocons, she was actually worth listening to. Anyway, the former minister pointed out that Canada's peacekeeping tradition, awarded with a Nobel Prize to a previous Prime Minister (Lester B. Pearson), is being trampled upon by this new Conservative regime. MacDonald made it clear that she wasn't "in the know" about the motivations for the Conservatives' bare-faced cheerleading for Israel in the wake of Israeli atrocities against Canadians, but she made it clear that she thought that a 50-year honoured Canadian tradition was being spat upon by the Harper regime. MacDonald noted in her interview that Canada has more nationals in Lebanon than any other country. I don't know where she got her numbers, but as a former foreign minister I don't doubt that she knows where to get the facts. The Conservatives are disgracing our country's honoured traditions of peacekeeping and dignified neutrality. This cabal of Conservative neocon zealots needs to be removed from office before they start beating up little old ladies, strealing candy from children, and so on. How can a party with the name "Conservative" violate so many dignified Canadian traditions? [ 19 July 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276
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posted 19 July 2006 06:23 AM
I saw Tzipi Livni on TV for the first time last night. Nice face. Nice voice. She's Likud's feminist: quote: Wherefore comes the sudden tendency to count on two relatively young women (Tamir is 52, Livni is 48) who acquired their political experience only in the last few years? Maybe - the wild idea creeps into the heart - something in attitudes toward women has changed? It seems so. The same women who managed to stand out in senior positions convinced others that women can do the job just like men, and in certain spheres, even better. Therefore, innovation coexists alongside the grim reality of exploitation, repression and the enslavement of women, especially young and inexperienced women, in the rough, ruthless labor market.
Surely this sweet woman can't have worked for Mossad from age 22 to 26, become a lawyer, had a couple of kids, become a General Manager in charge of the privatization of government corporations, and then elected to the Knesset as a Likudnik at age 40. However, Aljazeera says Livni was seen as one of the more "dovish" elements of Likud. Even they thought she sounded nice. It wasn't just me. Her accent sounded almost Scandinavian, but her father was Polish born. Interesting parents: quote: if anyone can convince Likudniks that uprooting settlements and withdrawing under terrorist fire isn't a self-betrayal, it's Livni. In a party increasingly dominated by opportunists rather than ideologues, Livni is one of the few Likud leaders who can still recite from memory passages from the writings of Revisionist Zionist leader Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the Likud's ideological mentor. Her family credentials define Likud aristocracy: Her father, Eitan, was operations chief for the underground Irgun; in the right-wing Betar youth movement, they still sing a hymn about an Irgun heroine named Little Sarah--Livni's mother. In fact, Livni possesses the Revisionist bona fides that Sharon, who grew up in the Labor movement, lacks. . . At a recent meeting with American national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Livni said that her father's tombstone is engraved with the old Revisionist map of an imagined Israel, including both banks of the Jordan. Livni mentioned that detail, she says, because she wanted Rice to understand how hard withdrawal is for a Likudnik.
[ 19 July 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 19 July 2006 06:40 AM
quote: Canadian Gregory Albo from ZNet: The response of Canadian authorities has been what has come to be expected from the Conservative government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper: tailing American imperialism; an ideological shift toward military aggressiveness and defence of Israel whatever actions it undertakes and no matter what the violation of international law, judicial rulings and public opinion; and administrative neglect and incompetence in meeting the needs of Canadian citizens, especially those who cannot claim European ancestry. The previous Liberal government of Paul Martin had already begun moving in these directions ...[PM] Harper made Canada the first nation to place sanctions on the newly elected Hamas government in the Palestinian territories -- the sanctions that became the real trigger that began the escalation of hostilities (not the phoney line from the media blaming the kidnapping of an Israel soldier at the Gaza border, while ignoring the Israeli and Western sanctions on the Palestinian government and the murder by Israeli rockets of Palestinian citizens at the beach in Gaza) ...
The kidnapping of two Palestinians from Gaza the day before the capture of Corporal Shalit could/should be added to this list. International humanitarian law specifically distinguishes, and treats more seriously, the taking of civilians versus the taking of soldiers. quote: The Canadian government, as much as the regime in Israel, has the blood of Canadians (and of course of hundreds of innocent civilians in the region) on its hands.
Albo on ZNet
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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cdnviking
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9661
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posted 19 July 2006 09:16 AM
I am perplexed by the overwhelming attitude of "world leaders" that it is OK to engage in MASS MURDER to avenge a kidnapping.So let me get this straight... someone in the Jane Finch area car jacks my employee and the employee is missing. By Israel's logic, I can therefore go into the Jane Finch neighborhood and SLAUGHTER every living thing in order to eliminate the one or two individuals who car jacked my employee (apt comparison to a soldier, an employee of thes state)? Is this basically the gist of things as Israel and "world leaders" see it?
From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005
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eau
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10058
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posted 19 July 2006 10:15 AM
300 dead in Lebanon, I am beyond disgust as nations the world over ignore the carnage, shades of Chechnya as some children matter more than others.Next move is when as in Gaza, they use Beirut like a shooting target they have at a funfair. This will happen as soon as the evacuees are gone. Can bombing the refugees whe left Beirut for Syria be far behind?
From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005
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eau
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10058
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posted 19 July 2006 10:32 AM
Frustrated mess, I constantly remind myself that 50% of Americans did not vote for George Bush, I also remind myself that there are Israelis who do not agree with their own government. I am old enough to remember passionately defending Israel in conversations over the years.HOwever I do not appreciate the treatment of women and children the world over by men with too much testosterone,or warrior cultures or whatever they chose to call themselves. I think in retrospect I am naive that people matter more then economics nonetheless I am too old to change my perspective.
From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005
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Flash Walken
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11223
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posted 19 July 2006 10:41 AM
quote: Originally posted by Frustrated Mess: See, racism and stereotypes can be fun. Select something nasty and repeat as true to demonize another. It has always worked so well throughout history. They used to say freedom for negroes would lead to every white woman being raped. Okay, everyone now, tell us your favorite racist stereotype?
I heard blacks can't see in the dark. Everyone, including myself, likes to rail and rant about the injustice and why isn't the world community doing anything, but what I'd like to know is, other than that small gathering of people that were kept off the street with their placards, is there any sort of popular Israeli peace movement right now?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005
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N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140
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posted 19 July 2006 11:35 AM
Israeli air strikes on Lebanon killed another 59 people today. Of these, 58 were civilians and one a Hizbollah fighter. Reuters quote: Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the bombardment would last "as long as necessary" to free two soldiers captured by Hizbollah on July 12 and ensure its militants are disarmed.
Let's see now. 58 to 1. Does that mean that the Israeli PM thinks it is "necessary" to kill all Lebanese civilians to ensure that all the Hizbollah fighters are dead? Not that Gaza was left alone. quote: Tanks pushed into Gaza's Maghazi refugee camp on Wednesday, killing nine people and wounding 52, including 10 children. Five Israeli soldiers were wounded.
Collective punishment. The trademark of Israel. And some other historical regimes that we won't bother to name. [ 19 July 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003
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Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
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posted 19 July 2006 11:53 AM
quote: Are you suggesting that Israel is killing innocent Lebanese civilians on purpose just for the pure pleasure of it?
Yes. And unless you haven't noticed due to your blind apologizing for Israeli terrorism, they are attacking civilians. In fact, the whole Israeli assault has be aimed at civilians. But I think the bloody bastards in Washington take just as much pleasure in it. [ 19 July 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
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posted 19 July 2006 11:57 AM
quote: PARKED outside the small general hospital in Tyre is a badly refrigerated lorry container in which are stacked the bodies of 91 Lebanese civilians, 55 of them children.The bodies have been placed inside black plastic rubbish bags and labelled in anticipation of the time, days or weeks from now, when their surviving relatives - if any - can come to collect them. "It's a disaster. It's making me cry," the hospital's director, Dr Salman Zeineddine said. "We can't move them anywhere else. Since the attacks came I've been trying to get wounded out of Beit Jbeil and I can't. How could I get critical patients to Beirut, much less move dead people?" Since Israel began bombing and shelling south Lebanon last Wednesday, about 380 patients have passed through this 65-bed hospital, plus the 91 dead. Not one of the victims, he says, has been a member of Hezbollah
Grim Proof
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
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posted 19 July 2006 12:00 PM
quote: solated by its crippled airport, blockaded seaports and bombed roads, Lebanon's food and medical supplies have dwindled dangerously.As the crisis deepened this week, Israeli planes unleashed missiles on food factories and a crucial aid convoy, Lebanese officials said. The officials said Israel had bombed the nation's largest milk factories, a major food factory and an eagerly awaited aid convoy that was making its way towards Beirut from the United Arab Emirates. "It's a very serious escalation," said Social Affairs Minister Naila Mouawad. "We were putting a lot of hope on the milk factories to get milk for children and elderly people."
Lebanese refugees turn to Hezbollah
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
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posted 19 July 2006 12:20 PM
quote: FOUR lorries destroyed by Israeli air raids near the Christian town of Zahle in Lebanon's Bekaa valley yesterday were carrying nothing but medicines and food provisions, awitness says.An Israeli military spokesman said the lorries had been carrying arms, munitions and explosives from Syria bound for Hezbollah fighters operating in the Bekaa valley. An AFP journalist saw that one of the lorries was transporting medicine from the United Arab Emirates (UAE). Another had been carrying vegetable oil, which spilled over the road, a third had a cargo of provisions and the fourth was empty.
Bombed trucks were carrying food
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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eau
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10058
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posted 19 July 2006 12:25 PM
When Shock and Awe was about to take place in Baghdad many Iraqis fled taking furniture and household items into Syria.This was the basis of the trucks carrying WMDs into Syria by the Israeli intelligence service. Never proven but much bandied about by the Bushies. So am I surprised about the trucks carrying medicine being bombed? I should imagine the UAE is unimpressed. For all the verbal attacks on Syria it does seem as if a lot of people flee there for safety.
From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005
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500_Apples
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12684
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posted 19 July 2006 01:44 PM
When I see those who prefer to call themselves anti-zionists give as much attention to other injustices as they do to Israeli self-defense I'll start taking it more seriously. How sweet of Alexa McDonough to care so much about lebanese civilians. I've never seen the NDP REMOTELY AS AGGRESSIVELY protesting human rights violations of China, of the Taliban in Afghanistan when it was in power, of Pakistan, of Russia, on Sudan, of freedom of expression in Cuba. However, when it is little Israel which seeks to defend their interests, McDonough is "horrified." Pardon my skepticism. eau wrote: quote: Stockholm, considering the imbalance of weaponry between Lebanon and Israel I am sure you are quite correct when you say tens of thousands would be dead. It is hardly a level playing field. All the restraint Israel is using at the moment clearly shows how skewed the death numbers are.
I again ask why many have this fetish of basing their ethics on kill ratios and relative strength. 1) If Israel were to what Hamas or Hezbollah do, to specifically hunt down civilians, but then to only kill them on a one to one basis so as to have a "fair" kill ratio, would their actions you deem immoral suddenly become moral? 2) Is there any objective moral foundation by which one can say that the weaker side is always the morally right side?
From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006
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josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938
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posted 19 July 2006 02:15 PM
quote:
Following the fatal rocket barrage that struck Nazareth Monday, residents accused the government of failing to warn the mostly Arab population to take cover in bomb shelters when the Katyushas started flying. “If they had instructed us to enter protected areas, as they did in the Jewish towns, the tragedy might have been prevented,” Nazareth resident Tarek Kubati told Ynet, referring to the deaths of two brothers , 3 and 9, who were playing outside when the rockets hit Wednesday. The rockets caught local residents unprepared, they related. “We knew it could happen to us too, but when no one is sounding the alarms or distributing instruction flyers, we just continued life as usual,” Kubati said.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278550,00.html
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002
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B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914
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posted 19 July 2006 07:52 PM
quote: Originally posted by 500_Apples: [QB]If Israel were to what Hamas or Hezbollah do, to specifically hunt down civilians [sic]...
Well, if they're hunting soldiers, they really are terrible shots... BTW, I thought this started because Hamas and Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers... Oh never mind...as you were.
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004
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Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787
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posted 19 July 2006 08:10 PM
quote: Originally posted by Wilf Day: I don't have time to research everything, but has anyone found an analysis of why Lebanon, which promised to take control of South Lebanon when the Israelis pulled out, and to disarm the militias, failed?Not that it's easy disarming militias. It may even be as hard as Gerry Adams has been claiming for eight years.
It is difficult to disarm militias, Israel never seemed to manage the militias that terrorised so many of the Palistinian farmers on the West Bank and Gaza. So I am not sure if Israel has much reason to complain about Lebanon's problem controlling Hezbolla.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003
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Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787
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posted 19 July 2006 08:36 PM
We might have to rendition Harper first for supporting a terror movement. Maybe CSIS will for once do the right thing.I wonder if it would be possible to charge Harper for supporting/encouraging Israel in their 'measured response'.
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276
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posted 19 July 2006 09:22 PM
quote: Originally posted by Bubbles: It is difficult to disarm militias. . . So I am not sure if Israel has much reason to complain about Lebanon's problem controlling Hezbolla.
You might not be so complacent if militias were attacking your neighbours. That was one of the reasons behind Confederation; the Fenians (the Irish Republican Brotherhood): quote: by the end of 1865 the Fenians had nearly $500,000 and about 10,000 American civil war veterans organized in military clubs. At this time they split into 2 factions, one led by O'Mahony, favouring an uprising in Ireland, and another led by William Roberts, intent on invading Canada. When it became obvious that there was to be no immediate uprising in Ireland, O'Mahony launched a raid against the New Brunswick frontier in April 1866. The raid collapsed and its only lasting consequence was to turn opinion in the Maritimes in favour of Confederation. The Roberts wing crossed the Niagara frontier on June 1, defeated Canadian militiamen at Ridgeway, and withdrew. A second group crossed the Québec frontier at Missisquoi Bay on June 7, and remained 48 hours.
Hardly comparable to Hizbollah, yet they were a big deal in their day. The United States took steps to suppress further Fenian attacks from its side of the border. If they had said "I'm sorry we can't control them" would Canada have said "okay, we can live with that"?
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002
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B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914
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posted 20 July 2006 12:11 AM
quote: Originally posted by Wilf Day:
Hardly comparable to Hizbollah, yet they were a big deal in their day. The United States took steps to suppress further Fenian attacks from its side of the border. If they had said "I'm sorry we can't control them" would Canada have said "okay, we can live with that"?
Do you suppose the "Canadians" would have directed their attacks at American civilians in order to compel the Fenians and/or Washington to comply... Fer Chrissake, Wilf...
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004
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Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276
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posted 20 July 2006 09:43 AM
quote: Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD: Do you suppose the "Canadians" would have directed their attacks at American civilians in order to compel the Fenians and/or Washington to comply...
The only other time the Americans invaded us we burned down the White House: quote: The British were quite punctilious about burning only public buildings in the U.S. capital, although that included a lot of real estate. The exception was buildings from which snipers occasionally took pot-shots at the British, which were systematically razed to the ground.There's an excellent description of the action at http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/washingtonsack.htm Pretty much every building and house in the city were connected with the government in some way, so as a result, the destruction was still a widespread sack, not so much a sparing of the majority of the city. When the British left to continue the campaign north to Baltimore, Washington for the most part lay as a smoking ruin.
Still, the comparison is flawed. It wasn't Lebanon that attacked Israel, it was Hisbollah. How do you counter-attack against an amorphous non-governmental militia?[ 20 July 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002
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EmmaG
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12605
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posted 20 July 2006 09:47 AM
I started another thread soliciting opinions, but haven't got any response, so I'll try my luck here. I'm against the disproportionate actions of Israel, but I also think that Hezbollah has to be stopped. We all know what we're against, but what are you for? What action to you think Israel, Lebanon, the UN, etc, etc. shouldtake?
From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006
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Free duh?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3441
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posted 20 July 2006 09:49 AM
quote: Yes, at the exact same time they send in an army to disarm the IDF and any other terror groups.
You expect the UN to disarm the Hezbollah??? The UN couldn’t disarm a bunch of crazed Maniacs with Machetes in Rwanda, its ignoring the worlds worst humanitarian crises in Uganda, the Congo and Sudan and you expect them to disarm an army of well trained Guerillas with 12,000 rockets. It should have been the Lebanese army to do so, with the worlds support. Although understandably the have a lot of reluctance too. That would mean another civil war in Lebanon and possibly even more death and destruction than the IDF is causing now. Anyways there are no simple answers its not black and white and nobody has absolute moral superiority. Although it is difficult the IDF must try harder to prevent civilian causalities and damage to civilian infrastructure even if the Hezbollah is hiding behind them. I heard earlier on CNN some Hezbollah sympathizer call the IDF cowards for hiding behind tanks and fighter planes; I think they’re just not suicidal, on the other hand hiding behind civilians and then crying foul is pure evil. [ 20 July 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
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posted 20 July 2006 09:57 AM
quote: The UN couldn’t disarm a bunch of crazed Maniacs with Machetes in Rwanda, its ignoring the worlds worst humanitarian crises in Uganda, the Congo and Sudan and you expect them to disarm an army of well trained Guerillas with 12,000 rockets.
So then there is no point discussing it is there? quote:
I heard earlier on CNN some Hezbollah sympathizer call the IDF cowards for hiding behind tanks and fighter planes; I think they’re just not suicidal, on the other hand hiding behind civilians and then crying foul is pure evil.
And that wouldn't be propaganda would it? I suppose there were Hezbollah fighters hiding at the airport, in the food warehouses, in the milk factory, in the aid convoy, and under the cars of those Canadians killed. Why is it the Hezbollah are hiding everywhere but out of 300 civilians killed only a precious few are Hezbollah? I agree both sides are responsible but spreading propaganda doesn't help.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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EmmaG
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12605
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posted 20 July 2006 10:07 AM
quote: Originally posted by Frustrated Mess: Oh, yeah, the people that piled the rubble on you pulling you out. I am sure every Lebanese with dead brothers, sisters, children, and parents would be grateful to the mrderous IDF.
Citizens of Europe post WW11 seemed allright with the Marshall Plan. If it's agreed that the UN can't stop Hezbollah (as it couldn't stop genocide in Rwanda), who can? Israel can stop itself, but I don't think this would stop Hezbollah's rockets from hitting Israel, as they don't believe such a place should even exist. Not with reduced borders, not with an end to their policies in Gaza, not under any circumstances.
From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006
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Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
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posted 20 July 2006 10:40 AM
quote: Citizens of Europe post WW11 seemed allright with the Marshall Plan.
Well, if you are going to be deliberatley thick and cold ... quote:
If it's agreed that the UN can't stop Hezbollah (as it couldn't stop genocide in Rwanda), who can?
Why should Hezbiollah be stopped any moreso than Israel? quote:
Israel can stop itself
Why doesn't it? What made Israel deliberately attack civilians? quote:
but I don't think this would stop Hezbollah's rockets from hitting Israel, as they don't believe such a place should even exist. Not with reduced borders, not with an end to their policies in Gaza, not under any circumstances.
There is no truth to that. More propaganda in the place of facts. Israel however is punishing all of Lebanon and calling for the complete destruction of Hezbollah. So, really, the attacks against civilians and the non-compromising, demand for complete and utter destruction comes from Israel, right? So remind me again why Hezbollah needs to be stopped and Israel does not?
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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EmmaG
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12605
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posted 20 July 2006 10:49 AM
Hezbollah has stated that it doesn't believe Israel has a right to exist as a country and its leader has stated that it wants to destroy Jews. It is a militant organization not tied to any state. UN resolution 1559 called for the disarmament of Hezbollah, and for the Lebanese government to regain control of S. Lebanon. Many Lebanese people don't like Hezbollah. Six Lebanese organizations in Canada released a statement denouncing Hezbollah. I agree that Israel should not only abide by the UN resolutions regarding its actions, but also stop all military action and practice pacifism. This would make it clear to the whole world that some groups are bent on murder regardless of Israeli policy. Do you agree with Israel's right to exist as a country? Do you believe that Hezbollah should control its own territory, rather than the Lebonese government?
From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006
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Free duh?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3441
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posted 20 July 2006 10:59 AM
quote: Why is it the Hezbollah are hiding everywhere but out of 300 civilians killed only a precious few are Hezbollah?
Lets make things clear. We all know that if Israel was indiscriminately targeting civilians than hundreds of thousands would be dead by now. Second the Israelis are separating there causalities when reporting them the Lebanese and Hezbollah are not really distinguishing although I am sure the sadly that the civilian causalities are quite high 300 plus minus is a logical number I feel we don’t really know how many Hezbollah Guerillas have been killed yet or even perhaps a portion (I’m not even going to argue about what size that portion is, because we all know the civilian casualties are high) but anyways it could a that a portion of that are Hezbollah Guerillas or at least sympathizers. Further more the Israelis have started there ground offensive and this is what some commentators believe. APN Commentary quote: commando units have commenced search and destroy missions on the ground in southern Lebanon to find rocket launchers. This will produce more IDF and Hezbollah losses and fewer Lebanese civilian losses.
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
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posted 20 July 2006 11:05 AM
quote: Hezbollah has stated that it doesn't believe Israel has a right to exist as a country and its leader has stated that it wants to destroy Jews.
I am not aware of these statements. But even if it is true, so what? They are statements without the means to be acted upon. Israel does not think Hezbollah should exist and is acting against all Lebanese. Israel refuses to recognize Palestine and occupies and takes Palestinian land. Israelis have called for a greater Israel and the transer of all Arabs and Israel does have the means to act. quote:
I agree that Israel should not only abide by the UN resolutions regarding its actions, but also stop all military action and practice pacifism. This would make it clear to the whole world that some groups are bent on murder regardless of Israeli policy.
And what if you are wrong? quote:
Do you agree with Israel's right to exist as a country? Do you believe that Hezbollah should control its own territory, rather than the Lebonese government?
It doesn't matter what I think. Israel exists and so does Hezbollah. Hezbollah exists because Israel invaded Lebanon and led a brutal occupation of that country. Israel invaded Lebanon ostensibly to stop attacks from Palestinians who had fled to Lebanon when Israel ethnically cleansed them from their villages.What if you were Palestinian living under the heel of Israeli oppression with no rights and subject to constant harrassment, brutality, and random violence? What if you were Lebanese and you had just lost your family to an Israeli bomb? What would you argue is the best way to end the violence?
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
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posted 20 July 2006 11:15 AM
Well. Sucks when your puppets don't dance the way you pull their strings: quote: Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki of Iraq on Wednesday forcefully denounced the Israeli attacks on Lebanon, marking a sharp break with President Bush’s position and highlighting the growing power of a Shiite Muslim identity across the Middle East.While many Arab leaders have been hesitant to criticize Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, crowds like this one, in Yemen, have been more vocal. “The Israeli attacks and airstrikes are completely destroying Lebanon’s infrastructure,” Mr. Maliki said at an afternoon news conference inside the fortified Green Zone, which houses the American Embassy and the seat of the Iraqi government. “I condemn these aggressions and call on the Arab League foreign ministers’ meeting in Cairo to take quick action to stop these aggressions. We call on the world to take quick stands to stop the Israeli aggression.” The American Embassy did not provide an immediate response.
New York Times
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001
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Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312
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posted 20 July 2006 11:21 AM
quote: Originally posted by Free duh?: Lets make things clear. We all know that if Israel was indiscriminately targeting civilians than hundreds of thousands would be dead by now.
You neglected this part of the same story:
quote: The United Nations high commissioner for human rights, Louise Arbour, sounded an alarm about humanitarian conditions there and said that the fighting there might amount to war crimes. "The scale of the killings in the region, and their predictability, could engage the personal criminal responsibility of those involved, particularly those in a position of command and control," said Arbour, a former war crimes prosecutor.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/20/news/mideast.php
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005
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Free duh?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3441
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posted 20 July 2006 11:25 AM
quote: I am sure every Lebanese with dead brothers, sisters, children, and parents would be grateful to the mrderous IDF.
I know that is a rhetorical question but I’ll answer it anyway. Of course not! However even though it is difficult to be rational when you have just lost a loved one, it is important to find ways to prevent further loss of life, if Hezbollah would disarm there would be no need for Israel to attack of continue its offensive. Israel moved out of Lebanon six years ago and attacked no more than the Hezbollah continued attacking and yes there were rockets from Hezbollah into Israel and Israeli air raids back and forth in the last six years. Finally Israel got fed up. They did prepare for this since the time they left. They knew that it would be easier for them to get world support if they were not continuously occupying Lebanon and they were right. Further more as someone who has lived in Israel I sometimes blame the Israeli government for encouraging and supporting terrorist organizations. Israeli clearly helped Hamas gain strength and encouraged more terrorist attacks by not negotiating or supporting Abbas. So the same I am critical and don’t think that Israeli government infallible and sometimes cause harm to their own people. So should the Lebanese and Palestinians see Hezbollah and Hamas for what they are.
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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cdnviking
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9661
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posted 20 July 2006 11:35 AM
Perhaps one should look at just how RACIST Israel isother thread before one makes sweeping statements that Israel would stop IF Hezbollah disarms and clears out of South Lebanon.Israel has been attacking Lebanon for decades. If it isn't one Palestinian group, it is another. Israel will find excuses to attack it's neighbors. It always has (three wars, oops, four now, counting this one). Israel is basically an apartheid state (lots of proof floating around out there). It needs NO reason to TARGET AND SLAUGHTER CIVILIANS... it just does so because it CAN.
From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005
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Free duh?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3441
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posted 20 July 2006 11:37 AM
quote: And if Israel never invaded Lebanon there would be no Hezbollah. Israel is the nation with the big military, with the expansionist ambitions, with the demands for more war against more people, the only nation in the region with nuclear weapons, and a willingness to target civilians. So why do you not demand Israel be disarmed? If all sides are disarmed, they would have no choice but to get along, right?
How many times was Israel provoked and attacked from the time of its creation even in 67 prior to the six day war the Syrians were constantly shelling the Galilee and the Egyptian closed the straights of Tehran those are considered acts of war by most books. Furthermore Israel was not occupying Lebanon for the last six years and recently retreated from Gaza sadly this makes many of Israel’s enemies in the region think that violence is a good means to get what they want. Israel current objective is to prove them wrong. Sadly it ends up that the civilians suffer most.
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Free duh?
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3441
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posted 20 July 2006 11:58 AM
I know it is difficult for many people especially Israelis to admit that prior to the creation of the state of Israel there were many illegitimate horrific criminal acts done by radical Jews. However we alone know that there were equally horrific acts done by Arabs.Both sides are to blame the Arab National movement started shortly after the Israeli National movement started in the 1880’s. This is the root cause. The Jews were just better organized. Both are to blame for not wanting to get along and compromise. Prior to that there were always small groups of Jews and Arabs in the region but both migrated in large amounts. Especially after there begun an organized government which started creating infrastructure. Yes the Jews created this infrastructure so many Arabs also flocked to it. They did not have this infrastructure before in this region. Once again I repeat both are equally to blame for not wanting to get along and compromise.
From: Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914
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posted 20 July 2006 12:25 PM
quote: Originally posted by Free duh?:
No people who spread hate should be locked up, or forced to do community work or something like that to stop the spread of hate. Unfortunately this is a war so somebody who of sympathy wants to stay in close proximity to his heroes is taking his fate into his own hands.
So, Lebonese should flee their homes when Israel comes knocking, because it's not Israel's fault if they get killed? Does that mean that Israeli civilians should make sure they're never in earshot of IDF soldiers? You're going down a blind alley here. Israel has admitted it is targetting the civilian population deliberately to destabilise Hizbollah, and not the other way around. Last I checked, that makes it Israel's fault. If I'm pissed at my neighbour and I spray a few bullets across the fence into his yard and kill the kids from up the street, it's my fault. quote: Its not easy to prevent suicide I wish we could.
Suicide is taking one's own life. Being killed by an Israeli missile, shell, bullet or mine while in the comfort of one's home, or while out in the street is not "suicide". By the same logic, anyone living in range of Hizbollah's Katyusha's is "suicidal". [ 20 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004
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Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603
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posted 20 July 2006 03:15 PM
quote: Why is Hezbollah purposely targetting and murdering Arab children who live in Isreal??
Indiscriminate firing... Israels border is that way, fire away. This is a lil different from Israel who has the ability to target and accurately hit targets as small trucks from miles away. Same result mind you. quote: I doubt they were- those rockets are very inaccurate, I am led to understand.
The traditionally ones yes... They are well under a 5% hit ratio (and by hit we mean hit a city and not land or water somewhere, so they've got pretty big targets) However the Hizbollah have been pulling out some arsenal well beyond these regular inaccurate rockets recently and their attacks (from my understanding atleast) have increased recently. Some Israel intel thats been reported suggest Hizbollah has several missiles (Iranian in origin) which could hit Egypt... So any Israeli soil could be targetted with it. Apparenlty tank #4 for Israel has bit it as well, which mean the Hizbollah have some more effective anti-tank weaponry then these rockets. Editted: It's interesting to see the different viewpoints different medias take in reporting recent events... The Americans are very much in military 'command and conquer' style action news showing and profiling the big weapons along with battle reports and the sort. Other media's outside of the USians are much more involved in the humanitarian side as opposed to battle reports.
[ 20 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]
From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 20 July 2006 05:05 PM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm: I see today that Hezbollah missiles killed two Israeli-ARAB children in Nazareth.Why is Hezbollah purposely targetting and murdering Arab children who live in Isreal??
Here you are one day arguing that Israeli artillery shells targetted using the most advanced computerized telemetric systems in the world accidentally landed on Gaza beeches, and then the next that every single rocket launched by Hezbollah using a weapons system that made its debut at Stalingrad are 100% accurate. Hezboallah fired Katuyshas are hastily deployed and fired due to potential Israeli air attack, and that they lack sattelite guidance, or RTO observer co-ordination and thus are fired "blind" by map co-ordinates in a "barrage." But go on Stockholm, don't let the facts get in the way of your mythologies, and your repeated attempts to make out Arabs as being essentially immoral. But just in case you are actually interested in knowing something about what you are talking about, in terms of the real world, as opposed to your imaginary relationship to it, I will provide you with a link to some people who are at least marginally attached to the real world: quote: The chief element of the Lebanese-based militant group's campaign is the unsophisticated Katushya rocket, with a range of 25km-40km.Its inaccuracy only adds to its strong capacity to terrorise populations, because of the noise made by incoming rockets coupled with the uncertainty about where they will land.
Financial Times [ 20 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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Brett Mann
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6441
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posted 20 July 2006 06:12 PM
America and Israel are united in a particular view of reality which is self-perpetuating and fatal. This view is a belief in the completely intractable evil nature of their opponents (and necessarily, of humanity in general.) In Israel's case, there is some justification for such a belief. Hezbollah does want to eliminate the state of Israel entirely, and clearly, this leaves little room for negotiation and diplomacy.I am not as interested in the particular ploys and deceptions of the neo-cons as I am in the social perspectives that support them. In the US case, a nation is spooked into believing that each citizen is a likely target of a terrorist attack. Why? For the same reason a thief is afraid of being robbed. Americans know on a deep unconscious level that they have been villains. The only chance for a re-birth of America is a post WW 11 Germany-like national admission of guilt and atonement. Until this happens, America is going nowhere. The left is going to have to re-learn how to think about war. Israel's present situation offers a lot of lessons, one of which may be that the old saw "violence never solved anything" is bullshit. If Israel can dismantle Hezbollah and hand it a stinging defeat, it may well gain a decade to find other solutions. But the large possibility remains that Israel's precipitate actions may be as counter-productive as the US invasion of Iraq. Even Israeli peaceniks apparently recognize the need for this latest Israeli offensive. My solution would be to move Israel to Brazil.
From: Prince Edward County ON | Registered: Jul 2004
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Trailwalker
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11094
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posted 20 July 2006 07:18 PM
Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man, His enemies say he's on their land. They got him outnumbered about a million to one, He got no place to escape to, no place to run. He's the neighborhood bully.The neighborhood bully just lives to survive, He's criticized and condemned for being alive. He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin, He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in. He's the neighborhood bully. The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land, He's wandered the earth an exiled man. Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn, He's always on trial for just being born. He's the neighborhood bully. Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized, Old women condemned him, said he should apologize. Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad. The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad. He's the neighborhood bully. Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him, 'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac. He's the neighborhood bully. He got no allies to really speak of. What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love. He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side. He's the neighborhood bully. Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace, They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease. Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep. They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep. He's the neighborhood bully. Every empire that's enslaved him is gone, Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon. He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand, In bed with nobody, under no one's command. He's the neighborhood bully. Now his holiest books have been trampled upon, No contract he signed was worth what it was written on. He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth, Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health. He's the neighborhood bully. What's anybody indebted to him for? Nothin', they say. He just likes to cause war. Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed, They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed. He's the neighborhood bully. What has he done to wear so many scars? Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars? Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill, Running out the clock, time standing still, Neighborhood bully.
From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2005
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 20 July 2006 07:23 PM
quote: Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
They do? Ilan Pappe: What Does Israel Want?
You old silly billy. Those aren't peaceknicks those are "self-hating Jews."
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938
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posted 21 July 2006 03:03 AM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm: I see today that Hezbollah missiles killed two Israeli-ARAB children in Nazareth.Why is Hezbollah purposely targetting and murdering Arab children who live in Isreal??
And if you had bothered to read a little way up in the thread, you would have learned that Israel didn't bother to have its usual civilian warning system in place for predominantly Arab Nazareth. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278550,00.html
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002
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