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Hamas's draft government programme has left the question of recognising Israel to the Palestinian people - leaving the door open for a possible referendum.

Hamas published a draft of its government programme on its website on Saturday.

The fifth article in the programme says: "The question of recognising Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people."

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[ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Hamas is ready for a two-state solution with Israel, a senior official said Friday, a position that would imply the militant group's recognition of Israel for the first time. The announcement came as Hamas has been sending go-betweens to Israel recently with an offer to reach an unofficial understanding on "quiet in return for quiet."

The senior Palestinian official said Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh planned to present a proposal to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas in a meeting later Friday. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the proposal has not yet been submitted. A Hamas spokesman denied that the proposal will be presented on Friday.

Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar plans to present the "two-state" platform to the cabinet at its next meeting on Monday, the official said, adding that he expects it to be approved.

. . . .

Unlike previous proposals, this time Hamas is not demanding that Israel withdraw to the 1967 border and release all Palestinians jailed in Israel as a condition for the cease-fire. Hamas is under internal and international pressure, and therefore is trying to achieve quiet in its fight against Israel in order to get organized, strengthen its military and organizational frameworks, and sideline the Palestinian opposition. This would enable the new Hamas-led government to fortify its control over Palestinian Authority territories.

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It does seem that the global reaction has had an influence; I only hope that moderate heads -- on both sides -- prevail.

[ 07 April 2006: Message edited by: lagnaf ]

[ 08 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
What's wonderful is not whether or not Israel will be recognised, but that the question will be answered by the people that potential recognition effects. The mob involved in serious questions of state? Those darned Hamas terrorists being more democratic than any arrogant Western state (incl. Israel)? That's significant.

[ 08 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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This sort of kindergartenesque, superficial attitude is exactly the reason that polarized groups (on the left and right) will never be taken seriously by the majority of thinking people.

By "wonderful" I meant that it could:

- ease, if not end hostilities
- renew money transfers to the Palestinians thus preventing what is shaping up to be a social catastrophe in that region

Not that it would prove that one group is "better" than the other.

Israel today declared the PA a "hostile entity" and has severed all ties. Not good.

Again, those who have read my past posts have seen that I tend to side with Israel, but this latest move is not a positive one.

Unfortunately it seems that both sides are unwilling to budge; the gladhanding goes on in the media, but actions, speaking louder than words (as actions will do), make it apparent that neither team is willing to play.

At some point one group is going to have to realize that the other is not going to budge, and unilaterally make a *genuine* peace overture: not a "we're pulling 90k people out of the occupied territories but still building a wall" (for example): it's backhanded and disingenuous.

And yes, Hamas is just as guilty; it's a two-way street.

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Originally posted by ohara:
And Beluga are you one who believes in a negotiated two-state solution?

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Yup. See Mandos's post above for a perfect encapsulation of my position.

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Originally posted by lagnaf:
[QB]

This sort of kindergartenesque, superficial attitude is exactly the reason that polarized groups (on the left and right) will never be taken seriously by the majority of thinking people.
[QB]

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Far from kindergartenesque, this gets into the roots of the conflict.

One of the reasons the confict persists is that Israel can paint the Palestinians as bloodthirsty, uncivilised terrorists who are a threat to their well-being because they just don't seem to accept OUR values. Never mind their own incredible human rights abuses. This has been Israel's primary strategy since God-knows-when. It's always been about who was better, and to solve such a dilemma, you need to work in the terms of the dilemma. Your idea, that the entire shape and character of the conflict be simply forgotten by purer hearts is the dangerously childish point of view. There is a game of power politics under way, and that isn't going to change.

The problem on the Palestinian side is that there have been a whole lot of people only too willing to do all kinds of heinous things to prove Israel's characterisation of ALL Palestinians as correct. For a long time, the middle-of-the-road Palestinian has not figured in the narratives of either side except as passive subjects. Having their voices expressed in this way means two things - A) that Israel will no longer be able to lie and call itself "the only democracy" in the conflict. In other words, their hardline stance won't hold water, allowing the possibility of more moderate stances to come to the forefront. No longer will Israel be able to say that those Palestinian children just aren't mature enough to handle their own affairs, because those Palestinian children will have spoken in just the way we have asked them to. Whereas you would just hope that everyone just get a little more friendly, I ask who's going to make room for those voices to be heard above the extremists' din?

Moreover, this means (much as the election of Hamas did) that a body politic of Palestinians is congealing. Such a body politic is of benefit to both Palestinians and the proponents of a two-state solution in Israel. Not only will Palestinians have a say in their affairs and the will of the median voter be better expressed, but this body politic (dare we call it civil society) is just what Israel has constantly said is missing in Palestinian society - that is, a positive basis for nationality and statehood.

While Israel is still focussing on Hamas' prior bad acts, there is a bigger and more fundamental change happening in Palestinian society with their election. This change has the possibility of equalling out the playing field a little (which is why Israel is so afraid of it). For once there may be two fully articulate voices in the conversation. Contrary to recent lingo, Israel has been acting unilaterally for decades because Palestinian society didn't have a unified basis for a political (not just violent) response to Israel's narrative of victimhood and "existential threat". It's exactly what Israel asked for, but now doesn't want, because it means that they will have to include the Palestinian's voices in the discussion on OUR terms - i.e. the facade of Western Democracy.

[ 09 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

For instance, what groups are considered *NOT* to be "polarized" in this situation?

Among the "polarized" groups, which ones were not taken seriously?

Seems to me there are plenty of "polarized" right wing stake holders in this situation that are being taken damn seriously ... the "polarized" groups that I see as not being taken seriously are either true left wing peace groups, or groups such as Hamas , which are forever being placed on the side of the left.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Lagnaf I agree with your analysis. However your post helped uncover the real problem, there are those who believe the only solution is a "One-State" solution. It is not just unrealistic its a dangerous mindset that will only lead to continued bloodshed. Sad.

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One state, two state
Red state, blue state.

You still haven't told me what we should do with the refugees and their descendants who were expelled from Israel in 1948 during the War of Independence.

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Originally posted by Mandos:
The current reality is that Israel is forcing a one-state solution through its position of continuous rejectionism.

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You still haven't told me what we should do with the refugees and their descendants who were expelled from Israel in 1948 during the War of Independence.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Compensation should be offered in the same way that compensation should be given to Jewish refugees forceed to leave Arab lands where they lived for generations.

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Okay. I'm glad that you recognize these wrongs were done.

What should be done about those whose houses are currently being demolished, to make way for settler blocs or settler roads, for the legal principle of collective punishment, or in the case of Ma'ale Adumim, for a land corridor?

What should be done about those who are being fenced in on all four sides from their workplaces, from their relatives and from foreign countries by the Wall (or Walls, to put it more accurately)?

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Originally posted by ohara:
Compensation should be offered in the same way that compensation should be given to Jewish refugees forceed to leave Arab lands where they lived for generations.

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They have been compensated by the international community, and in particular the United States through Israel. In fact Israel actively encouraged this migration, and it was no secret that the Zionist wanted to collect all of the Jews within the borders of Israel. Of course this does not obviate the responsibility of those state that actively supported the Israeli campaign by forcing many Jews out of the Arab coutnries, but goes a long way to explain why it is that Israel, never demands this compensation, and has never raised it as an issues at the negotiating table, because such would immediatly and obviously recongize that the same compensation applies to Palestinians forced out of Israel prior to any of the forced relocations of Jews.

Ultimately this arguement for tit-for-tat compensastion only appears as a talking point for those seeking to justify the collective punishment of Arab Palestinians by blaming them for what was done to Jews by other Arabs.

Even if it were the case that Israel were to raise the issue of compensation for Jews forced out of Arab countries, after Israel had expelled 700,000 Arabs from Israel, this is completely irrelevant to the rights of individuals whom have been dislocated by Israel's ethnic cleansing. It is their land and their property, and anything other Arabs did in Morroco has nothing to do with them as indicidual property owners. It is Israel which is responsible to compensate indivduals whom have disenfranchised by the Israeli state, and no one else.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

They have been compensated by the international community, and in particular the United States through Israel. .

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Originally posted by lagnaf:

This sort of kindergartenesque, superficial attitude

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As for the present situation, I believe all expansion must stop and once Hamas realizes they will be a pariah until they reject terrorism and accept Israel as a partner with which to negotiate a settlement then peace and security can be attained. A pipe dream? Maybe..but worth a try

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That's assuming that Israel is such a partner. The election of Hamas is a recognition among Palestinians of the reality that there is no Israeli partner for peace.

This point is comically obvious, as is the point that Israel clearly favours a one-state solution. The very growth of the settlements in the post-Oslo is a big part of the evidence for both! There can be no greater endorsement of a one-state solution than the act of settlement. If one is not endorsing a one-state solution by that act, then what is one doing?

Why, the elimination of possibilities is easy: one doesn't want peace.

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Originally posted by ohara:

Frankly that is just not true. We are talking about Jews forced to flee Iraq, Libya, Yemen, and most recently Syria. That they came to make a new life in Israel, France, Canada, the USA etc is to their very great credit. Most left behind homes,businesses and generations of life spent . They will not go back but deserve to be personally compensated.

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Sure if you wish to look at it that way. I have absolutely no objection to those people lobbying for such compensation, as I stated. Although the huge aid packages delivered to Israel by the US certainly defray the costs of Israels military budget, and as a result allow it to invest heavily in social spending to support those who have been wrongly displaced. However, that does not contradict the body of my argument, and in fact substantially reinforces the principle that Israel, and no other party is responsible for the compensation it owes to disenfranchised Palestinians, and that has absolutely nothing to do with what other Arabs have done, as was suggested by your previous post.

The issues of personal property rights, are individual and not collective.

[ 10 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]