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Author Topic: Barbara Black - Is it ok to Laugh?
quelar
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posted 21 March 2007 05:05 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This article has spanwed a sub discussion that should be here.

Despite the joy we're feeling from watching tubby and family twist in the wind, even though this woman is an anti-feminist social climber, is it in any way reasonable to accept this sort of dialogue?

From here


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
pookie
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posted 21 March 2007 05:18 AM      Profile for pookie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good question Quelar. God help me, I almost agree with, gulp, Barbara Kay in today's Post. The DiManno article is just so very yucky and gratuitous.

Now, Kay asks rhetorically, "Would a male journalist have been able to write what DiManno did?" Absolutely, I think, in fact the main difference is that a male columnist wouldn't have faced the comments about "betrayal" of one's sex. Reaction would have been more on the lines of "What a bastard" or "Way to go!".

It goes without saying that Barbara Black holds very little interest for me. And, if I can indulge in a bit of nastiness, I find it amusing that way that certain older women of a say, certain ethnicity (Wente, Kay) are always fawning over her knock-down "great beauty". She's always been kind of meh, to me.


From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 March 2007 05:26 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah. My answer would be, "not really".

As for the question of whether a man would be able to write what DiManno did - well, that's not really the point. That's kind of an old question on babble, one we really don't need to go over again and again, so I'll just say this: people from marginalized groups get more leeway to roast people from their groups than those from dominant groups. So it would be a completely different power relations situation for a man to say those things about a woman than for a woman to do so.

That said, I don't think most of DiManno's article was acceptable either. I laughed spitefully at the last line in the article, but the rest was just a gross display of ageism and sexism.

Here's Barbara Kay's article.

[ 21 March 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pookie
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posted 21 March 2007 06:28 AM      Profile for pookie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I'll just say this: people from marginalized groups get more leeway to roast people from their groups than those from dominant groups. So it would be a completely different power relations situation for a man to say those things about a woman than for a woman to do so.

[ 21 March 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


I know that. My point was that Kay is using almost a reverse sexism type of argument to show why DiManno is writing from a peculiar place of immunity as a woman. And I was challenging that in terms of how it would actually play out. I don't believe that a male journalist would face all that much more excoriation for going after Amiel Black, even if he deserved it more because, yes, it is different when a man says those kinds of things.


From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 21 March 2007 07:03 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why is it ok to call her Barbara Black. She didn't chose to take Conrad's last name last time I checked.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 21 March 2007 07:08 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
Why is it ok to call her Barbara Black. She didn't chose to take Conrad's last name last time I checked.

Officially, she's Lady Black of Crossharbour and is often referred to as "Lady Black" in the British press at least.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 21 March 2007 07:13 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In fact she's been known to be fairly insistant on that point.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
marzo
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posted 21 March 2007 07:26 AM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is best to call her 'Amiel' or 'Barbra Amiel' to avoid confusion. 'Barbara Black' would, I think, be a fairly common name throughout the world.
Yes, it's OK to laugh and it's OK to condemn her.
Feminism has nothing to do with it.

From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 21 March 2007 07:30 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Officially, she's Lady Black of Crossharbour and is often referred to as "Lady Black" in the British press at least.


That is her peerage title, not her name.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 21 March 2007 08:12 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I used it to keep the title short, the article refers to her as "Barbara Ameil Black" at least once.
From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 21 March 2007 09:01 AM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There are so few women opinion journalists. And it isn't because there is a glass ceiling in editorial offices. Women writers who see themselves as writers first and women second are just not falling off trees. Most women don't enjoy public confrontation and choose other avenues to express their opinions. Of those who do get into opinion writing, many are there to advance women's issues. If we're going to see more women columnists who strive for objectivity, those who are already in the game have to set a good example. This wasn't it.

This from the Barbara Kay column I think is deepyh untrue. The funny thing is that Dimanno's style is not far off that of Ameils in terms of dishing up vitriol and hyperbole and this is not accidental. I think this is the sort of female columnists that the media promote and it is deeply sexist. There are certainly far more inteliigent and better woman writers than Dimanno, Blatchford, Wente, Ameil crew but they won't get the profile.

From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 21 March 2007 09:25 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
N.R.Kissed:There are certainly far more inteliigent and better woman writers than Dimanno, Blatchford, Wente, Ameil crew but they won't get the profile.

Has anyone ever wondered why the more well-known (and likely better-paid), women journalists are all right-wing?

From Barbara Kay's article:

quote:
Under the circumstances, how could it possibly matter if she was less physically attractive than some other member of a plaintiff's family entourage? What male writer would call attention to such insignificant details?

Um, first of all isn't Conrad the accused, which would make him and his "family entourage" on the side of the "defendants"? Duh.

And, actually, male writers do this all the time. They've done it for so long and for so often nobody but the most hard-assed of feminists (ahem) notice and get outraged anymore. See any article written about Belinda Stronach (I bet she's happy to be out of the headlines these days), or any other female politician, or any woman who is in the news because a tree fell on her car or something. Irrelevant comments about what she was wearing, the colour of her hair, her age, her "fiance" or "husband", etc, etc, blahhhh, are everywhere in the media, especially the papers.

And no, it doesn't make what Rosie said okay, and I talked about that on the other thread.

One last point, how handy is it to have so many "friends" in influential and journalistic places? Gotta get me some of those.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 21 March 2007 09:40 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What auto-immune disease?

I agree with heywood, it must be Barbara Amiel, or Barbara Amiel-Smith-Jonas-Graham-Black, though her close friend "Barbara" Kay, does call her Barbara Amiel Black.

Did anyone else notice Barbara Amiel sounds like Jerry Hall?

And she has a fabulous arse?

ETA: Also just noticed the Star article picture shows Barbara AB wearing green rubber gloves.

and a really off topic comment, but BCG started it!

Belinda Stronach, interestingly made an appearance the other night on the Next Great Canadian Prime Minister show. So, we had Mulroney, Clark Martin Campbell and Stronach all appearing together. It seemed strange to me.

[ 21 March 2007: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 21 March 2007 09:50 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Following Remind's detour:

Why should Martin, Clark, and Campbell have anything to do with picking a great PM other than looking in the mirror and saying "Not you".


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 21 March 2007 09:21 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
people from marginalized groups get more leeway to roast people from their groups than those from dominant groups. So it would be a completely different power relations situation for a man to say those things about a woman than for a woman to do so.

But aint' that kind of like saying it's OK to insult your own kind, just as long as it's not anyone else?

(The whole debate in the US about 15 years ago about Black comedians and musicians using the word "nigger" to describe themselves or their ethnicity come to mind).

It can be said that if you abuse yourself in public consistently, then others may start to get the impression it's OK to treat you that way as well. It also can encourage the simple lack of respect for people's families, cultures etc, in general (whether they are considered dominant or not), which itself runs counter to the whole idea of building a more mutually respectful, egalitarian society that honours diversity.

Add to this the fact that DiManno is hardly marginalized. She's a well connected corporate brown-noser who enjoys privileges that most Canadian working class folks--be they male or female--don't enjoy yet in some way have to pay for.

Besides, it's a plain sad fact that female physical beauty does not necessarily equate to good honest character and principal. Amiel, if anything, is proof of this. (I, for one, have never really noticed any stunning features about her. Then again, I have never looked at her that closely). So even for DiManno to make this an issue in the trial is plain stupid, as well as, not surprisingly from her kind, unethical journalism.

As for His Lordship of Lies and his Lady Black, DiManno claims in her article that in many news rooms there is more sympathy for suspected "terrorists" at Gitmo than there is for Blackie & Barbie.

That's as it should be. They are two profiteering dictatorial parasites who have used their unearned (as in legally stolen) wealth and power to help screw my industry--media and communications--into the cess pool it is today.

Sadly, these are crimes they can't be charged with in court. But still, they deserve nothing but contempt and hostility.

[ 21 March 2007: Message edited by: Steppenwolf Allende ]


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Phrillie
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posted 25 March 2007 03:19 PM      Profile for Phrillie        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry to digress ...

but I just wanted to confess here that I only realized within the last 2 weeks that a certain Barbara Amiel (I've only read 2 of her vomit-inducing columns in Macleans) and Lady Black are one and the same.

All Ms. Amiel's recent scorn for "victimology" makes a lot more sense, all of a sudden.


From: Salt Spring Island, BC | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 25 March 2007 04:19 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
Following Remind's detour:

Why should Martin, Clark, and Campbell have anything to do with picking a great PM other than looking in the mirror and saying "Not you".


How did you manage to lose Mulroney (the lying thieving bastard) from that list?

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 25 March 2007 04:27 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Because as much as you don't like him, he was a far better PM than those three and matched in success only by Cretien.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 25 March 2007 04:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just because Lizzie May says so doesn't mean it's true.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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