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"We want to sell gasoline and heating fuel directly to poor communities in the United States,"

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[ 24 August 2005: Message edited by: dano ]

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Originally posted by mary123:
"Chavez offers oil to poor Americans"

Now if this isn't a threat to 'US democracy and freedom' I don't know what is.

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CNN was on it last night. They treated it as a flippant off the cuff remark that Chavez probably thought up as he was being interviewed by the press.

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[ 24 August 2005: Message edited by: blacklisted ]

[ 24 August 2005: Message edited by: blacklisted ]

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Heh. A buddy of mine in New York decided to start going to Citgo after he found out about this

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Hurricane Katrina has forced the precautionary evacaution of 21 oil and natural-gas platforms and rigs in the Gulf of Mexico, according to the U.S. Minerals and Management Service Friday afternoon. So far, no oil or natural-gas production has been shut in, the MMS said.

That last sentence bothers me. If the rigs need to be evacuated, they should be shut-in as well. I hope those rigs are still standing when this blows over. The northern Gulf of Mexico is polluted enough without a bunch of oil fields gushing their contents onto the sea surface.

Part of the problem (with prices) is the probable loss of refining capacity along the Louisiana and Mississippi coast.

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Gasoline prices could see the largest spikes because so many refineries in the region could be shut down by flooding, power outages, or both, energy analysts said.

The U.S. has ample crude oil supplies, even if major hurricane destruction trims Gulf oil output and foreign imports, but refining capacity is extraordinarily tight.

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Originally posted by PoostabberII:

So why doesn't Citgo sell their gas for .05 cents, plus taxes, in the US?

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I would think it wiser if Chavez were to set up a separate entity to target supplies of petrol to "poor Americans." This is because the location of independent operators selling Citgo products will often not be located conveniently enough to the neighborhoods Chavez wants to help.

This kind of assistance also needs to be tied to a broader program of community economic development. Perhaps a customer loyalty program that involves discounts and Venezuela matching its own discount with investment in targeted areas, this investment itself matched by community economic development organizations through local fundraising efforts.

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
Is it really worth responding to someone who posts on a message board under the name "poo stabber?"

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Originally posted by robbie_dee:
Is it really worth responding to someone who posts on a message board under the name "poo stabber?"

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Caracas, Venezuela, August 28, 2005 —Venezuela’s Chavez said to visiting Rev. Jesse Jackson today that he would like Jackson to help with finding a way to provide discounted heating oil and free eye operations to poor communities in the U.S. Pointing out that Venezuela provides 1.5 million barrels of oil per day to the U.S., Chavez said, “we would like to provide a part of this 1.5 million barrels of oil to poor communities.”

Chavez had first mentioned the plan to supply discounted oil to poor communities in the U.S. last week, while in Cuba, but did not provide any details beyond that. Today he specified that it was heating oil that the Venezuelan government was looking into because this seemed the most feasible and most necessary approach. Given the high price of oil this year, heating oil is expected to reach very high levels this winter, which will be unaffordable for many poor families in the U.S.

Part of the plan was for the U.S.-based and Venezuelan state-owned oil company Citgo to provide heating oil directly to poor households. Chavez said this would not present a loss to Venezuela because the idea would be to offer the oil at a lower rate because intermediaries would not be involved. Up to 30% to 40% of the cost could be saved said Chavez. Citgo licenses 14,000 gas station franchises and 8 refineries in the U.S.

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Originally posted by WingNut:

I'm quite impressed with the way the US media is downplaying Robertson's comments. Can you imagine if an Islamic cleric said Bush should be assassinated?

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Isn't it hideously embarrassing for officials in the USA to realize that the country is being talked about as though it were a Third World nation?

I know if I were George W. Bush I would have some serious egg on my face after seeing that little news article.

(But then again it has been noted with some mixture of schadenfreude and glee that the USA's income inequality and extremely right-wing (by industrial-nation standards) governments qualify it as a de facto Third World nation with a pile of nuclear bombs.)

[ 30 August 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]

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Originally posted by Hugo the Liberator:
My offer remains.

And unlike anybody holding power in Washington, Moscow, or Beijing, I was elected democratically in free and fair elections.

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That reminds me of Paula Zahn's comment about whether or not Robertson was essentially just a nut, or "on to something".

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PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. Glad to have you with us tonight.
Has controversial Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson finally gone too far or is he on to something?

ZAHN (voice-over): Preaching assassination.

PAT ROBERTSON, THE 700 CLUB: We have the ability to take him out. And I think the time has come that we exercise that ability.

ZAHN: Should Pat Robertson take it back? Or should Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez be taken out before he becomes another Castro.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/23/pzn.01.html

Heaven forbid he should become another Casto. Cuba, which has the most doctors per capita in the world, has deployed more than 1,000 physicians, dentists and psychiatrists to Angola and other African countries where leftist movements that Cuba once helped are now governments in power. Now Chavez has offered cheap oil to the American poor. What a catastrophe.

[ 01 September 2005: Message edited by: Richard MacKinnon ]

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Cuba, a short distance away from Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, was in a position to offer assistance to the American people. At that moment, the billions of dollars the United States could receive from countries all over the world would not have saved a single life in New Orleans and other critical areas where people were in mortal danger. Cuba would be completely powerless to help the crew of a spaceship or a nuclear submarine in distress, but it could offer the victims of hurricane Katrina, facing imminent death, substantial and crucial assistance. And this is what it’s been doing since Tuesday, August 30, at 12:45 pm, when the winds and downpours had barely ceased. We don’t regret it in the least, even if Cuba was not mentioned in the long list of countries that offered their solidarity to the US people.

Knowing that I could rely on men and women like you, I took the liberty of reiterating our offer three days later, promising that in less than 12 hours the first 100 doctors, carrying the necessary medical resources in their backpacks, could be in Houston; that an additional 500 could be there 10 hours later and that, within the next 36 hours, 500 more, for a total of 1100, could join them to save at least one of the many lives at risk from such dramatic events.

Perhaps those unaware of our people’s sense of honor and spirit of solidarity thought this was some kind of bluff or a ridiculous exaggeration. But our country never toys with matters as serious as this, and it has never dishonored itself with demagogy or deceit. That is why we proudly gather in this hall, at Havana’s Convention Center where only three days ago we observed a minute of silence for the victims of the hurricane which battered the United States, and from where our heartfelt condolences were extended to that brotherly people.

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ATLANTA, Sept. 7 /PRNewswire/ -- A prominent U.S. medical group voiced "deep concern" over delays in health care and epidemic prevention reaching Katrina victims, and urged U.S. authorities to accept Cuba's offer of 1586 disaster-trained physicians to prevent a "second wave of sickness and death."

Latest reports indicate the U.S. State Department is backing away from the offer, implying they are not needed.

"Up to this point, there been a clear need for more medical help for Katrina victims," said Peter Bourne, MD, Chairman of MEDICC and former special adviser on health in the Carter White House and former Assistant Secretary General at the United Nations. "The Cuban physicians are accustomed to working in difficult third-world conditions without the resources and supplies most of us are accustomed to. Since they are just an hour away, it is a shame that they have not been allowed to join our committed medical corps already."

He is joined by other physicians, medical educators, international health experts and a former U.S. surgeon general associated with MEDICC, Medical Education Cooperation with Cuba. From 1998 through 2004, MEDICC has provided medical electives in Cuba for nearly 1000 students and faculty from 118 U.S. medical, public health and nursing schools.

"Cuba has been recognized by the UN, Oxfam and other international organizations as a leader in disaster response, expertise that could be saving lives now," said Doctor William Keck, former long-time director of the Akron, Ohio Department of Public Health.

A 2004 Oxfam Report, Weathering the Storm: Lessons in Risk Reduction from Cuba, states that there are real lessons to be learned from Cuba on how to safeguard lives during extreme natural disasters, including getting medical attention to vulnerable populations. The report can be found at http://www.oxfamamerica.org/cuba.

On Tuesday, August 30, Cuba first offered U.S. authorities hurricane relief in the form of 1100 disaster-trained bilingual physicians, each equipped with 52-pound pound backpacks of medical supplies, including rehydration therapy, insulin, anti-hypertensives, and medications for systemic and topical infections.

On Saturday, September 3, Cuba increased the offer to 1586 doctors, ready for immediate deployment and prepared to stay as long as necessary to help wherever needed. A Cuban spokesperson said that as of today there has been no official response from the U.S. government.

Cuban disaster relief experience spans 45 years, mainly in hurricanes faced by the Caribbean island and in coping with disasters confronted by other developing countries. Another nearly 25,000 Cuban health professionals provide longer-term health care services in 68 countries, under government-to-government agreements.

Cuba trains 10,500 medical students from 27 countries at its Latin American Medical School -- 65 of them from poor and minority communities in the USA. (See The New England Journal of Medicine, 2004; 351:2680-82.)

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In a lame attempt at irony, White House press spokesman Scott McClellan dodged a question about the administration’s response to the Cuban offer by declaring, “We would certainly hope that Castro would offer freedom to his people.”

It is hardly likely that many Cubans would like to experience the “freedom” offered to disaster victims of New Orleans, who were left free to die in the streets and who are now being forcibly evicted from their homes and relocated to shelters that have all the characteristics of detention camps. They, like the rest of the world, have watched in horror the images of babies and old people dying from official neglect in one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

Cuba, an impoverished island nation that has been subjected to a 45-year economic blockade by successive US governments, stands in stark contrast to the US when it comes to disaster prevention and relief. While officials in Washington are continuing the refrain that no one could have foreseen the hurricane and suggesting that those left in New Orleans and other disaster areas are responsible for their own deaths, the Cuban authorities have proven in practice that such tragedies are avoidable. Source

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[ 16 May 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Nicaragua's left-wing opposition party has announced an agreement to buy Venezuelan oil at preferential rates. Sandinista leader Daniel Ortega said councils governed by the party would be able to buy oil at a 40% discount. More than half of Nicaragua's councils are run by Sandinistas and could benefit from the cheaper oil.

Venezuela's Ambassador Miguel Gomez said he hoped similar schemes could be extended to other Central American countries.

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Officials at Citgo Petroleum Corp. - the Houston-based company that is wholly owned by Venezuela's state-owned energy company - say they are scrambling to put the fine points on Mr. Chavez's promise to supply some of the poorest neighbourhoods in the United States with cheap heating oil this winter.

"The idea is to work with communities in need, with schools, and we'll have to work through not-for-profit organizations that will serve as intermediaries," public affairs manager Fernando Garay said.
[snip]
The Venezuelan leader's program is scheduled to begin next month in the Mexican-American community in Chicago, followed by the South Bronx, and then Boston.
[snip]
Only days before Mr. Chavez took his message directly to Americans after speaking at the United Nations, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice complained - hypocritically, in the eyes of many Venezuelans - that oil was "warping" international politics.

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A subsidiary of the Venezuelan national oil company will ship 12 million gallons of discounted home-heating oil to local charities and 45,000 low-income families in Massachusetts next month under a deal arranged by US Representative William D. Delahunt, a local nonprofit energy corporation, and Venezuela's president, White House critic Hugo Chávez.

The approximately $9 million deal will bring nine million gallons of oil to families and three million gallons to institutions that serve the poor, such as homeless shelters, said officials from Citizens Energy Corp., which is signing the contract. Families would pay about $276 for a 200-gallon shipment, a savings of about $184 and enough to last about three weeks.

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[ 22 November 2005: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

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Venezuela's state-owned oil company, which is essentially controlled by President Hugo Chávez, ran full-page advertisements in major U.S. newspapers Thursday saying it will sell 12 million gallons to families at a discount.

The ads, one of which ran in USA TODAY, is headlined "How Venezuela is Keeping the Home Fires Burning In Massachusetts" and describes the deal as a "simple act of generosity."

Critics say it is an attempt by Chávez to embarrass President Bush and take heat off allegations he supports terrorism. On Wednesday, The Wall Street Journal scolded Massachusetts' Rep. Bill Delahunt and former representative Joe Kennedy, both Democrats, for brokering the deal. "Mr. Delahunt's lobbying for the dictator undermines any official U.S. pressure on Mr. Chávez to behave more humanely, which is precisely why Mr. Chávez is returning the favor by plying Mr. Delahunt with cheap oil," the Journal said. "Leave it to the congressman ... and a Kennedy to close the deal."

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The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget shortfalls.

In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.

But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation.

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Citgo Petroleum Corp, the Houston-based refining arm of Venezuela's state owned oil company, will ship five million gallons of heating oil marked down by 40 percent for distribution to low-income families next month in a deal brokered by U.S. Rep. Chaka Fattah, The Philadelphia Inquirer reported Friday.

Similar shipments to low income communities in New York, Vermont, Rhode Island, Massachusetts and Maine had Republican Sen. John McCain calling Sunday for development of alternate energy sources to avoid dependence on Iran or "wackos in Venezuela."

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
Now poorer Americans can enjoy burning copious amounts of oil just like the rich can afford to. Huzzah!

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As spake by Gir Draxon Who Suddenly Got a Huge Case of Conservatitis After That Git Harper Won:
Now poorer Americans can enjoy burning copious amounts of oil just like the rich can afford to. Huzzah!

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I'm sure heating your house in winter to avoid FREEZING YOUR FUCKING ASS OFF is prodigious and wasteful, right Gir?

Lemme guess, with you it's "Let them burn their own furniture", hey?

[ 28 January 2006: Message edited by: DrConway ]

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Originally posted by DrConway:
I'm sure heating your house in winter to avoid FREEZING YOUR FUCKING ASS OFF is prodigious and wasteful, right Gir?

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On a large scale, yes it is- higher prices will fuel demand for alternatives. But good luck selling people on alternative energy when oil is CHEAP. It sucks to be on the receiving end, but the people for whom a little saving on the heating bill means the difference between a home and living on the street... I don't think they are directly paying their heating bill anyways. They're paying rent. Are you saying that every landlord is altruistic enough to pass on any savings they have on heat to the tenants? LOL. Cheap utilities make for higher landlord profits. Now if you're talking about gasoline, the solution is to sell the car first and then see where you're at with the essentials.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Not every apartment landlord or manager provides heating with the rent. In particular, in the case of residential homes, the landlord often throws the cost of heating directly onto the tenants instead of burying it in the rent, so that it is the low-income tenant who does directly foot the bill.

If you call it prodigious and wasteful to do something necessary to a modicum of basic survival I'd like to see how well you'd do on Ellesmere Island with just your clothes and a parka and no way to get any firewood, and without a propane heater.

Prodigious and wasteful, Gir, is when Joe Rich Guy buys himself a million-dollar yacht with a 2000 HP engine just so he can fart around with his fancy new toy.

[ 28 January 2006: Message edited by: DrConway ]

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Joe Barton is Chairman of the Committee on Energy and Commerce, and he is demanding that Felix Rodriguez (President of CITGO) reveal details about discounted heating oil. This program was initiated by Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez in 2005.

In Barton's own words: "What we are opposed to and concerned about is...an oil company that's nationalized, that's owned by a government, and that government is controlled by an individual like Mr. Chavez of Venezuela and that they use their oil for political purposes. ... It does appear that the president of Venezuela is using it for political purposes in the United States..."

This is not the first time Joe Barton has badgered people over documents, hoping to find compromising information. In 2005, Barton challenged scientists measuring global warming, insisting that they list "all financial support you have received related to your research." Barton, you see, is skeptical of global warming even though the North Pole is melting quickly. It might be more accurate to say that the top industries supporting Joe Barton's most recent election included electric utilities and oil and gas. Source

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Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

On a large scale, yes it is- higher prices will fuel demand for alternatives. But good luck selling people on alternative energy when oil is CHEAP. It sucks to be on the receiving end, but the people for whom a little saving on the heating bill means the difference between a home and living on the street...

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May 13 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who sold almost 40 million gallons of discounted heating oil to the U.S. last winter, said today he'd extend the program to Europe in a gesture to help the needy.

Venezuela, which has refining capacity in Germany and the U.K., will hear suggestions on which groups should benefit from the discounted oil, Chavez said, speaking to an audience of socialist activist groups in Vienna after a summit of European and Latin American leaders.

"I want to ask for your help so that here in Europe we try the same" as in the U.S., Chavez said. "I want to offer our modest support to the poorest people that may not have the resources to ensure they have winter heating."

About 181,000 households and hundreds of homeless shelters in eight U.S. states participated in the U.S. program run by Citgo Petroleum Corp., the U.S. retailing unit of state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA.

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Originally posted by arborman:
How about cheap oil to sub-saharan Africa?

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
Don't they use solar heating there?

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Originally posted by siren:
Because Chavez has more oil than cash?

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I don't think anyone thinks that this is anything other than a PR stunt to embarass the US, and fair enough. But it's not an effective anti-poverty measure.

Policies in contrast to the neoliberalism offered by the USA should be welcome by progressives in Canada and elsewhere. Neoliberal policies in Bolivia, for example, made the collection of rain water illegal. Those policies were enforced with the barrel of a gun and cannisters of tear gas. Yet Bolivians have taken a different path with the electoral success of the socialist Morales in that country.

Sell the rain

[ 17 May 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Chavez is using Venzuela's treasury like a slush fund to feed his sense of self importance. He's like a father who finds 500 dollars and, instead of buying his children much needed books for school, gets a bigger kick buying beer and pizza for his buddies.

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S a l:Venezuela is not a rich country. It is a poor country. Hundreds of billions would be needed to develop an infrastructure to bring the country up to first world standards.

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So what? Better that transnational corporations appropriate Venezuela's oil wealth and residents of the slums of Caracas wait for what "trickles down" ? I think not. According to a report on the CBC last night, Chavez has the strong support of the poor inhabitants of those slums. I wish there was a government in Canada that was so partisan for poor people as Chavez is.

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Chavez pissing away millions on publicity stunts is that much less for Venezuelan developmnet.

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Yea. Why doesn't he invade Iraq or something?

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Originally posted by Sanityatlast:
Chavez pissing away millions on publicity stunts is that much less for Venezuelan developmnet.

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For the uneducated among us, could you please list some of these publicity stunts and their approximate (if not precise) cost? In dollars, if you must, but Euros are okay, too.

But, last I checked isn't it just sound business to advertise to develop a niche market and then sell your product to that market? In a sense, Chavez is doing EXACTLY what neo-cons and neo-libs have been suggesting for awhile and that is to use private institutions to supplant the "welfare state" functions of governments specifically as it applies to helping the poor and disadvantaged.

Assuming you know the cost of these publicity stunts, how do they compare to the 100 Billion dollar infrastructure improvement program Chavez announced late last year? Something in the range of 20 Billion per annum over 5 years was proposed. Considering the Venezuelan budget is usually in the range of 20-30 Billion, that's a substantial increase in spending on projects designed to stimulate local and international trade - i.e. ports, bridges, railways. The money is to come from petrol profits, including those made selling heating oil to poor Americans, I guess. The job creation in Venezuela could be substantial, let alone the effects of money-multiplying as some of that cash rattles around in the service sectors. Big bad Hugo, how dare he...

[ 17 May 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Chavez pissing away millions on publicity stunts is that much less for Venezuelan developmnet.

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Originally posted by eau:
Chavez is spending a lot of money on health and education..can you imagine the gall of the man.

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Originally posted by Dana Larsen:

I see Chavez's offer of cheap gas for poor Americans as a way for him to generate some sympathy and awareness among Americans. He wants to avoid being assassinated or invaded by US troops. Offering to help poor Americans seems a wise PR move.

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Originally posted by Sanityatlast:

I'd agree to some extent but he's now enjoying the publicity more than the actual impact to insulate himself from American interference. A couple years ago the Bush administration would have gladly had the fellow bumped off but today they probably pray for his health because if Chavez dropped dead tomorrow, no matter what the cause, the Americans would be blamed. The Americans would have no credibility when their past actions are dug up.

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Originally posted by eau:
Chavez is spending a lot of money on health and education..can you imagine the gall of the man.

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Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
Why does the gift have to take the form of oil? Why not cash?

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