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Sanctified Bovines, 131 posts! I'm sure someone will start a part IV (or IIII as the Senatus Populus que Romanos would have put it)

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But as far as Hezbollah is concerned once again we know their tactics or do you really want me to do work and get links and evidence its there because there is loads of it just have to organize they hide behind their civilians will Israeli soldiers do the opposite they do their best to shield their civilian population it’s a fact they are not too shabby at it either.

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I can see the comparisson you're trying to make, but it's comparing apples and oranges. First, when supplied with multi-billion dollar militaries by the US, the Israeli have absolutely no need to resort to anything but american tactics (American tactics = point a gun at everyone and shoot if they try to protect themselves from your gun). This supplying of military has forced the Hizbollah to rely on these tactics (without them, the Hizbollah are easily eliminated.. Really a $10 billion military walks all over a few hundred million dolalr military). I know it's not a justification (nor am I trying to justify the Hizbollah's actions), but these actions have been forced upon them out of nessesscity (really, it's this or die). If we gave the Hizbollah a $10 billion military, then maybe they wouldn't resort to these tactics.

The second part, thats a bit hard to explore, is the defination of Hizbollah by the western media outlets as a terrorist organization... By definition, can you have civilian components of a terrorist organization? If you kill the parent of a "terrorist" (a parent who stayed behind largely out of nessescity, Israel has not made it easy to leave), was that parent a civilian? Israel not only calls that a civilian, but calls it a human shield (so that it's Hizbollah's fault that civilian lost their life).

Israel is at war with a portion of the population of Lebanon (not a single terror group)... But in the media, there is no way they could get away with that. So instead, the civilian casualty count is attributed to 'Hizbollah human shield tactics' instead.

Venus:

quote:

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Really? I don’t have a clue what I am talking about? Prove it

...

By stating that you are automatically placing yourself above me that I think (and I’m sure) is not the case at all.

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Look, I don't intend to pick on you, but you continue to post lovely peices of horrid misinformation and base your arguements around it. Like giving out defininations of what Genocide is in regards to Israeli's, and then put up a post like:

quote:

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Bomb the bastards i say, destroy them and restore US government’s full control of its own territory if they wish so, but it would be wise to protect our own country and its people as a first priority.

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And no, I am not placing myself above you... I am however placing my research and information above your 'Kill em all!!!' attitude. Research, find out whats really happening... And then make comments. Don't regurgitate what a few horribly biased medias are telling you. I don't care if you come up with a different opinion either, just make it off real facts and not the shit you've been forcefed. Even the comments on Hamas, how evil they are for denying Israels right to exist and kidnapping a soldier (the EVIL TERRORISTS!!!), but the Gaza family that got shelled while they were sunbathing on the beach by an Israeli warship is meaningless (and bringing it up is anti-sematic apparently^^)

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

CNN is reporting (y'know, it reports horribly biased views, but it's able to report them horribly biased views first)... Israel is expanding it's military role and going into Lebanon full force across the entire border.

And in the same story, Syria ups it's armies readiness level, causing the CNN to comment on the 'evil' Syrians lack of involvement in disarming the Hizbollah ^^

Though I joked at it, above is very serious as far as escalations go... Syrias involvement is the next step inescalations towards an all out WWIII (The step after that would be Iran going into Israel, which would drag the US in and open the doors for a military, say N.Korea, to go into vietnam/S.Korea). Thats purely speculation mindyou.

eddited:

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Mr. knows all the facts. You really know all the facts?

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Yes, i said to bomb the bastards, not about Lebanese people, but Hiz-h, because i believe that they are the root cause of the problem

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You just accuse and accuse, well known tactics.

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[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

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What’s going on in southern Lebanon is an outrage. It’s an atrocity. The idea that more than 600 civilians must die because three Israeli soldiers were killed and two were captured on the border by the Hezbollah on July 12, my 60th birthday -- I’ve spent 30 years of my life watching this, this filth now, you know -- is outrageous. It’s against all morality to suggest that 600 innocent civilians must die for this. There is no other country in the world that could get away with this.

You know, when -- I wrote in my paper last week, there were times when the IRA would cross from the Irish Republic into northern Ireland to kill British soldiers. And they did murder and kill British soldiers. But we, the British, didn’t hold the Irish government responsible. We didn't send the Royal Air Force to bomb Dublin power stations and Galway and Cork. We didn't send our tanks across the border to shell the hill villages of Cavan or Monaghan or Louth or Donegal. Blair wouldn't dream of doing that, because he believes he's a moral man, he’s a civilized man. He wouldn't treat another nation like that.

But when the Israelis treat Lebanon like that, it's okay, and Blair doesn't want a ceasefire. You can’t have a real ceasefire. In other words, we've got to have the Lebanese on their knees to sign the dotted line, before we give them a ceasefire. And that dotted line means the disarmament of Hezbollah, which will be impossible for the Lebanese to do without restarting the civil war, because to disarm Hezbollah, you must use the army, and most of the Hezbollah are, of course, Shiite Muslims, and most of the army are Shiite Muslims. So you’re going to have brothers assaulting brothers to take their weapons away. It will not happen. However much you may wish it and however much I may wish it, it won't happen. And, again, this double morality: Blair wouldn't dream of attacking the Irish Republic because the IRA crossed the border from Ireland, but it’s quite in order for Israel to attack the Lebanese Republic because the Hezbollah crossed the border from Lebanon.

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Is there a connection between a religiously motivated mistrust of science, glaring social injustice and a war in the Middle East? Bush and his administration espouse many of the ideals of the Christian right and rely on its support. American fundamentalists are convinced that the second coming of Christ is at hand; they have developed an end-time scenario of genocidal battles based on a literal reading of Revelation that is absolutely central to their theology. Christ cannot return, however, unless, in fulfilment of biblical prophecy, the Jews are in possession of the Holy Land. Before the End, the faithful will be "raptured" or snatched up into the air in order to avoid the Tribulation. Antichrist will massacre Jews who are not baptised; but Christ will defeat the mysterious "enemy from the north", and establish a millennium of peace.

This grim eschatology, developed in the late 19th century, was in part a reaction to the "social gospel" of the more liberal Christians, who believed that human beings were naturally evolving towards perfection and could build the New Jerusalem here on earth by fighting social injustice. The fundamentalists, however, believed that God was so angry with the faithless world that he could save it only by initiating a devastating catastrophe; they would see the terrible battles of the first world war, which showed that science could be used to lethal effect in the new military technology, as the beginning of the End.

The fundamentalists' rejection of science is deeply linked to their apocalyptic vision. Even the relatively sober ID theorists segue easily into Rapture-speak. "Great shakings and darkness are descending on Planet Earth," says the ID philosopher Paul Nelson, "but they will be overshadowed by even more amazing displays of God's power and light. Ever the long-term strategist, YHVH is raising up a mighty army of cutting-edge Jewish End-time warriors." They all condemn the attempt to reform social ills. When applied socially, evolutionary theory "leads straight to all the woes of modern life", says the leading ID ideologue Philip Johnson: homosexuality, state-backed healthcare, divorce, single-parenthood, socialism and abortion. All this, of course, is highly agreeable to the Bush administration, which is itself selectively leery of science. It has, for example, persistently ignored scientists' warnings about global warming. Why bother to implement the Kyoto treaty if the world is about to end? Indeed, some fundamentalists see environmental damage as a positive development, because it will hasten the apocalypse.

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American fundamentalists are convinced that the second coming of Christ is at hand;

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CNN does reports on the coming of the armeggeddon too... Comparing the signs to the 'good book' and the 'prophechies'.

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That is an incredible simplification of things that proves nothing. I hate to sound broken record but I suppose I’ve learned from the Palestinian PR campaign (Occupation must be one of most used English words in the middle east its all because of the occupation??? That rationalizes everything???) anyway that was a bit off topic just to show how things can become annoyingly repetitive. But as far as Hezbollah is concerned once again we know their tactics or do you really want me to do work and get links and evidence its there because there is loads of it just have to organize they hide behind their civilians will Israeli soldiers do the opposite they do their best to shield their civilian population it’s a fact they are not too shabby at it either.

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Here is another classic example of cowards using their own civilian population as human shields:

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As a preparation for the storming, the city was shelled day and night with artillery and aerial bombardment. Among the guns used were heavy railway guns and mortars. Two entire air fleets took part in the air raids against both civilian and military targets. Since September 20 the forces on the eastern bank of the Vistula started attacks on Praga on a daily basis. All were successfully counter-attacked by the Polish forces. On September 24 all German units concentrated around Warsaw were put under command of general Johannes Blaskowitz.

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Cowadly Poles trying to make the Nazi look bad during the 1939 siege of Warsaw.

Horrific isn't it, those nasty Poles trying to manipulate public opinion 25 800 dead and approximately 50 000 wounded civilians wounded, all just fuel theie spiteful propoganda campaign.

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Horrific isn't it, those nasty Poles trying to manipulate public opinion 25 800 dead and approximately 50 000 wounded civilians wounded, all just fuel theie spiteful propoganda campaign.

I mean what were the Nazi's supposed to do, really? There were Polish soldiers firing on them from inside all these buildings where civilians were.

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What's the deal with all the flawed analogies lately?

If Hezbollah had attacked an Israeli occupying force in Lebanon with the aim of liberating Lebanese, this analogy would be perfectly valid.

For the sake of argument, let's say that there are participants on this board who believe that the Israeli military is the root cause of the problem. How would you respond if a person holding such a belief wrote, "Bomb the bastards," referring not to the Israeli people but rather to the Israeli military?

Again, for the sake of argument, let's say that other participants believe that the Israeli government is the root cause of the problem. How would you respond if such a person wrote, "Bomb the bastards," referring not to the Israeli people but rather to the Israeli government?

I suspect that you would feel outraged at such declarations, and rightfully so. After all, regardless of the contempt in which we might hold those responsible for acts of barbarism, it's still shameful to wish that living human beings suffer the shattering of their bones, the scorching of their flesh, the pulverization of their brains, the laceration of their eyes, and the bereavement of their loved ones. It's even more shameful when the person making such a wish does so from the safety of his or her own home, far removed from the traumas and tribulations of war.

Like you, I would be very disturbed if anyone on this board were to enthusiastically call for the bombing of the Israeli military or government, not because I have any great love of these institutions, but rather because I have a healthy fear of the hatred that lurks within all our hearts, in my own as much as any other, and because I value the souls of even those who I believe are responsible for crimes of war and crimes against humanity.

I hope you'll understand when I tell you that your declared wish to see Hezbollah "bastards" bombed deeply saddens me. If people far removed from the warzone can be moved to proudly proclaim sentiments such as this, then what of the people under bombardment in Lebanon and Israel? If so tiny a spark can ignite such bloodlust in our hearts, then what firestorms of hatred will the horrors befalling them produce?

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: Michael Nenonen ]

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Ich wohnte bis 2002 in einem kleinen Dorf im Süden nahe Mardschajun, das mehrheitlich von Schiiten wie mir bewohnt ist. Nach Israels Verlassen des Libanon dauerte es nicht lange, bis die Hisbollah bei uns und in allen anderen Ortschaften das Sagen hatte. Als erfolgreiche Widerstandskämpfer begrüßt, erschienen sie waffenstarrend und legten auch bei uns Raketenlager in Bunkern an. Die Sozialarbeit der Partei Gottes bestand darin, auf diesen Bunkern eine Schule und ein Wohnhaus zu bauen! Ein lokaler Scheich erklärte mir lachend, dass die Juden in jedem Fall verlieren, entweder weil die Raketen auf sie geschossen werden oder weil sie, wenn sie die Lager angriffen, von der Weltöffentlichkeit verurteilt werden ob der dann zivilen Toten. Die libanesische Bevölkerung interessiert diese Leute überhaupt nicht, sie benutzen sie als Schilder und wenn tot als Propaganda. Solange sie dort existieren, wird es keine Ruhe und Frieden geben.

Dr. Mounir Herzallah

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For those of you who don't know German:

I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajund that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like myself. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have its say in other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters and well-armed, they stored rockets in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no peace.

Just one person's opinion.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: EmmaG ]

Now I'm sure those caches are there somewhere... that's pretty much a well known fact. The reality, though, is that those caches are not being found where the distruction is occuring.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: CWW ]

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: CWW ]

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With respect to the Hezbollah rockets being fired over into Israel.... what if they were actually trying to hit military complexes or the air force airports but they just missed and caused civilian casualties.... I'm sure they're "sorry" about this.... right?

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If Hezbollah ever expressed any "regret" over killing Isreali civilaisn, it would be front page news around the world. It would be like the Pope announcing he supported gay marriage and abortion!

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

If Hezbollah ever expressed any "regret" over killing Isreali civilaisn, it would be front page news around the world. It would be like the Pope announcing he supported gay marriage and abortion!

it would ne unthinkable for them to ever regret killing Israeli civilaisn because that would mean acknowledging that Jews are people too. That would totally clash with fundamentalist Shi-ite theology.

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Originally posted by Michael Nenonen:

For the sake of argument, let's say that there are participants on this board who believe that the Israeli military is the root cause of the problem. How would you respond if a person holding such a belief wrote, "Bomb the bastards," referring not to the Israeli people but rather to the Israeli military?

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Sure, for the sake of the argument-that is what happening in reality. However Hiz-h is not bombing the army but cities where there is no army but just civilians, whom Hiz-h fighters hate and consider as enemies. That is where I see the difference. Israeli army is just what it is-an army. Hiz-h however is not. Their tactics therefore are those of gorilla fighters. Urban warfare is the only type of action they are capable of. Hence, they would cover mainly inside and underneath the buildings. It is not Israeli intent to bomb the civilians. If they would ever wanted to do that, with the whole military might they are capable of-they would have done that before by just sporadically bombing the whole Lebanon, blowing everyone and everything. It is not the case thanks the fortune.

My point is that if someone attacks your house from across the street or border and threatens your very existence-you better start doing something about it. We will not be speculating about the ethics or aesthetics of our actions. Though we would act openly so to demonstrate our good intent. Otherwise we’ll be nothing more then cowards pretending to be peaceful. Plus if I would be Israel I would deny any chance in negotiating with Hiz-h, because they are not a legitimate government, but bunch of hooligans running around with rockets and irritating the public. On top of that they are covering their actions with religion, crazy isn’t it? They and religion is like hell and heaven. Therefore I say-get rid of them and reinforce Lebanese government, military and social infrastructure. Someone has to do the dirty job, unfortunately for the public of course.

[ 01 August 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]

A massacre in Qana, again.

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The Daily Star said Monday that the Qana massacre has boosted support for Hezbollah.

"“Now that fresh images of the broken bodies of the women and children of Qana are being shown on our television screens, the idea of forgetting has become all the more unthinkable. These images have stirred the anger and outrage of even the most moderate Lebanese, proving that Israeli brutality - not Hizbullah - has become Israel's own worst enemy. Israel's unabashed butchery in Qana has only demonstrated to many of those who were on the fence that there is indeed a legitimate need for resistance.”"

Ya Libnan, a news site that arose spontaneously to support the massive street demonstrations of Feb. 2005 that forced Syria to withdraw from Lebanon, noted that Qana is believed by some to be the site of a Christian miracle.

“"2006 years ago Jesus performed the miracle of turning water into wine in the very same place that Israel murdered 37 children as they slept in Qana on Sunday," said Ya Libnan.

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This is the new Middle East

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The images were broadcast on all of the Arab-language satellite channels, but it was the most popular station, Al Jazeera, that made the starkest point. For several hours after rescuers reached Qana, Lebanon, the station took its anchors off the air and just continuously played images of the little bodies there.

“This is the new Middle East,” one report from the shattered town began, making a sarcastic reference to a phrase Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice uttered last week when visiting Beirut, Lebanon, and rejecting calls for an immediate cease-fire.

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Originally posted by Proaxiom:

What's the deal with all the flawed analogies lately?

If Hezbollah had attacked an Israeli occupying force in Lebanon with the aim of liberating Lebanese, this analogy would be perfectly valid.

They didn't. So it's not.

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Two things. First of all both the Lebanese army and the Hezbollah contest the assertion that the two POW's were captured in Israeli territory. That really is a matter of whomm you choose to believe so there is no way anyone can really say.

Second, the analogy has nothing to do with who attacked whom, but about the idea that Lebanese militia are using civilians as human shields. I am simply pointing out that ad hoc militias and armies have fought within, and used urban settings for warfare for centuries.

The fact is that the French, Polish, and Yugo civilians understood and supported the decision of their gurrillas to use urabn settings as cover for thier wars against the Germans.
No one ever called the Polish resitance "cowards" or claimed that they were using civilian population as human shields during WW2. Nor was it said about the French resitance, nor Tito.

Actually, that isn't true, the Nazi's called all the local resitance militias "terrorist," and if memory serves me correctly and claimed they were immoral for "using civilians" as cover, etc.

In fact I have no doubt that if the situtation were reversed, Israeli militais would be fighting in Tel Aviv and Haifa, not merrily lining up like idiots in the desert.

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QANA, Aug 1 (IPS) - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.

...

"There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel
told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the
truth."

...

Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS
that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched
rockets from Qana.

"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a
28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told
IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from
villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they
are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear
of either of those."

Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we
can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas,
because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."

---

from Inter Press Service/ Dahr Jamail.

[ 01 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

For decades now, probably since Anwar Sadat's unbelievable journey to Jerusalem, we have become accustomed to thinking about the conflict around Israel's borders in terms of solutions. The solutions proposed were many, and the disputations about them were fierce; but almost everybody agreed that transformation was possible and peace a plausible prospect But the war across Israel's northern frontier is not about peace. It is about deterrence. That is to say, it represents the restoration of the terrible old predicament, in which the best that could be imagined was not the solution of the conflict but the management of the conflict.

(snip)

The unexpected difficulties of the Israeli ground operations in southern Lebanon--the discovery of the scope and sophistication of Hezbollah's military capabilities--only reinforces this dour conclusion. All those tunnels and all those rockets were quite plainly preparations for an eventual--and, since it would be hallowed by ideology, inevitable--war. The Syrians and the Iranians did their work in southern Lebanon very well. They placed formidable force in the hands of would-be martyrs eager to use it. Strategically speaking, victory for Israel in this war means only the greatest possible destruction of this force before diplomacy really kicks in. Nothing less, but nothing more. In sum: a new era of deterrence.

(snip)

The UN Security Council established the border between Lebanon and Israel. Israel withdrew beyond that legitimate border.

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If we gave the Hizbollah a $10 billion military, then maybe they wouldn't resort to these tactics.

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Given greater means, they would pursue the same objective: they would attempt to kill as many Israelis as possible and they would attempt to destroy the state of Israel.

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Israel has not made it easy to leave

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The Hezbollah seem to move around even though Israel has been attacking Hezbollah units.

Has the Hezbollah made it easier for civilians to leave? Nope. Instead they continue to use convoys as human shields. They have held hostage the populations of Christian villages, for example.
These are the very tactics that some sympathizers say are necessary.

Somehow the newsmedia managed to get through to Qana, for example, even though the locals were being herded there by the Hezbollah. The roadways have served as the launching ground for hundreds of Hezbollah missiles fired from behind civilian buildings. The mobile Hezbollah units were not avoiding civilians -- neither in their choice of launch sites nor in their choice of targets.

The Hezbollah had built a bunker in Beruit and established a gated residential and office area for its headquarters. It installed roadside explosives and mined the urban roads. They purposefully setup this type of powder keg in the backyards of the noncombattants throughout the cities of Lebanon.

So far, the Israelis have run about 5,000 bombing sorties; it is remarkable that more civilians have not been killed amidst the destruction. In comparable fighting elsewhere in the world the ratio of civilian deaths has been far higher. Historically, this war pales compared to other wars in the Middle East.

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The town of Bint Jbiel (population 45k) has been pretty much completely leveled... UN forces are finding nothing but Isreali shells (some duds) and destroyed housing.

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A population of 45,000, the city flattened, and yet how many civilian casualties? Each is horrific and the loss of life cannot be discounted. All the more reason to appreciate the low ratio of civilian deaths.

The IDF was not fighting phantoms there, as the number of wounded and killed amongst their ranks would attest.

Each civilian death is a huge tragedy. But whose conscience is pressurized by these deaths? Not the Hezbollah who seem to be accorded a pass.

The Israelis use the sophisticated firepower available to them to avoid civilian deaths even when reluctantly attacking dual purpose targets. They have the power to carpet bomb all of southern Lebanon but they would not do such a crime.

The Hezbollah profit from the propgandic value of each civilian death or injury no matter whether the harm is done by their own rockets, suicide attacks, or by Israel actions.

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QANA, Aug 1 (IPS) - Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told IPS that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike.
...
"There were no Hezbollah rockets fired from here," 32-year-old Ali Abdel
told IPS. "Anyone in this village will tell you this, because it is the
truth."
...
Lebanese Red Cross workers in the nearby coastal city of Tyre told IPS
that there was no basis for Israeli claims that Hezbollah had launched
rockets from Qana.
"We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a
28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told
IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from
villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they
are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear
of either of those."
Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we
can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas,
because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."

---

from Inter Press Service/ Dahr Jamail.

Oh come on? I don’t this news source doesn’t sound to reliable, I don’t think the Israeli Army would be imagining that rockets were being fired from there. Yes they Israeli Military intelligence has made some major screw ups lately but I don’t think they could ever screw up that bad.

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Israeli aircraft hammer hillsides or nearby roads, bridges and villages often just moments after Hizbollah rockets are fired. But as Israel's killing of 54 civilians in a raid on the village of Qana on Sunday showed, targets are not easy to find from the air and cost Israeli lives to reach by land
"Hizbollah are playing very smart guerrilla rules. They know they cannot challenge Israel in open combat, with its air power, so they wait until it moves deeper into Lebanon, where they know the terrain, and ambush," said Timur Goksel, former spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon.

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reuter s

A U.N. peace keeper and Reuters I suppose are not credible sources

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

From Israel With "Love"

In loving memory of the children of the Lebanese village of Qana, murdered in an Israeli attack on 30 July, 2006.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

confederateyankee

EU Referendum

I wouldn’t ever go on my own initiative to these websites however they got e-mailed to me on a mailing list I’m on. Nor do I think that they are credible sources but the raise some interesting questions if. One unanswered interesting question that I do think is true is the 7 hour time gap it was posted in other news sources such as Ynet news that I do think is quite a reliable source.

Here is the link

ynet

Further more here is some info directly from the IDF about it. For those of you who don’t read Hebrew the dot in the map with all the lines coming out of it says beside it directly translated “Qana Village”

idf

If the IDF video doesn’t work try this out

youtube

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

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Free duh?: ... you are no better than those little girls drawing on those artillery shells in fact you are more like the people who let them because you should know better.

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Originally posted by Free duh?:
Talk about educating to hate, you are no better than those little girls drawing on those artillery shells in fact you are more like the people who let them because you should know better.

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It is obscene for our government to expend effort rescuing Canadians from a war zone while refusing to call for a ceasefire and working to achieve it. The same conditions threaten Lebanese civilians as menace ours. They are as human and as innocent as our own citizens, and we owe them a moral duty. If evacuation is urgently needed, then so is a ceasefire.

It is obscene to demolish infrastructure such as power plants, roads, bridges or airports merely because they are used by those you are fighting. Infrastructure of that sort is the skeleton of civilized life, used by everyone. Why not bomb orchards, supermarkets and cows? Terrorists use them, too.

An Israeli journalist told Peter Mansbridge that Israel wants to “solve” the Hezbollah problem for good and counts on the U.S. to let it do so. But, as is often acknowledged in Israel, the real aim is not a solution. It is to buy some time by destroying or degrading the other side for a while. That is all.

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On Sunday, Israeli warplanes bombed the village of Qana at around 1 a.m. A missile hit a three-story building where relatives from two extended families were seeking refuge. Rescue workers were unable to reach the site for hours because Israeli warplanes continued to attack the area. No weapons were found in the building that was hit. In all, As many as 57 civilians
were killed in the attack including 37 children. There were only eight survivors. Today, Human Rights Watch has called the Israeli attack on Qana a war crime.We air part two of our interview with the veteran war correspondent Robert Fisk. In 1996, Fisk reported on that year"s massacre at
Qana, and now, in 2006, Robert Fisk is reporting from Tyre, where the victims from Qana were brought after the attack. We spoke to him early
Monday in Beirut.

---

from Democracy Now!

War. Crime.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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I thought root causes was a wussy term for use only by leftists, but I was wrong. Condoleezza Rice and the U.S. have appropriated it. As usual, when terms get pilfered, it's in order to distort them.

So the Secretary of State says the U.S. won't act to stop the bloodshed in Lebanon until its root cause is addressed or we'll be back at the “status quo ante” — and that root cause is Hezbollah. 'Scuse me, but that's a branch cause, possibly a twig. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 when there was no Hezbollah, which arose in response to the occupation. So destroy Hezbollah for being the root cause and you're back to a status quo ante in which — Israel attacks Lebanon.

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quote:

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For the Israeli air force, carrying out bombing raids over Lebanon is about as challenging as shooting fish in a barrel. Hezbollah has no air force or air defenses. So the Israeli air force — one of the best in the world — has been able to drop a constant barrage of bombs for the past two weeks on Lebanon, where civilians are essentially defenseless.

Once again, a slaughter is taking place in Lebanon, only this time those allowing the slaughter to take place are running the governments of the United States, Britain — and Canada.

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quote:

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The attack took place around 1:00 a.m. today, when Israeli warplanes fired missiles at the village of Qana. Among the homes struck was a three-story building in which 63 members of two extended families, the Shalhoub and Hashim families, had sought shelter. The civilians had taken refuge there because it was one of the larger buildings in the area and had a reinforced basement, according to the deputy mayor of the town, Dr. Issam Matuni.

According to the Lebanese civil defense and the Lebanese Red Cross, at least 54 civilians, including 27 children, were crushed to death when the building collapsed. Rescue teams were unable to reach the village until 9:00 a.m. because of ongoing heavy IDF bombardment in the area. None of the bodies recovered so far have been militants, and rescue workers say they have found no weapons in the building that was struck.

---

This shows clearly that haven’t yet done an independent investigation. They are relying solely on local testimony not forensic evidence, which now understandably due to the war is difficult to get too.

Further more

[url= http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/17/lebano13748.htm] HRW 2 [/url]

quote:

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Can Israel attack neighborhoods that house Hezbollah leaders or offices? And what are Hezbollah’s obligations regarding the use of civilian areas for military activities?

Where the targeting of a combatant takes place in an urban area, all parties must be aware of their obligations to protect the civilian population, as the bombing of urban areas significantly increases the risks to the civilian population. International humanitarian law obliges all belligerents to avoid harm to civilians or civilian objects.

The defending party – in the case of Beirut, Hezbollah – must take all necessary precautions to protect civilians against the dangers resulting from armed hostilities, and must never use the presence of civilians to shield themselves from attack. That requires positioning its military assets, troops and commanders as much as possible outside of populated areas. The use of human shields is a war crime.

In calculating the legality of an attack on premises where a Hezbollah combatant is present, Israel must take into account the risk to civilians. It is not relieved from this obligation on the grounds that it considers Hezbollah responsible for having located legitimate military targets within or near populated areas, or that Hezbollah may be using the civilian population as a shield. Even in situations of Hezbollah’s illegal location of military targets, or shielding, Israel must refrain from launching any attack that may be expected to cause excessive civilian loss in comparison to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. That is, a violation by Hezbollah in this regard does not justify Israeli forces ignoring the civilian consequences of a planned attack. The intentional launch of an attack in an area without regard to the civilian consequences or in the knowledge that the harm to civilians would be disproportionately high compared to any definite military benefit to be achieved would be a serious violation of international humanitarian law, and a war crime.

In any event, the presence of a Hezbollah commander or military facility in a populated area never justifies attacking the area as such rather than the particular military target. It is a prohibited indiscriminate attack, and a war crime, to treat an entire area as a military target instead of attacking the particular military facilities or personnel within that area.

---

quote:

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For the Israeli air force, carrying out bombing raids over Lebanon is about as challenging as shooting fish in a barrel.

---

quote:

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Salutin: Spiderman may think that with great power goes great responsibility. But it is hard to imagine anyone who, like Israel, feels deeply menaced and morally justified, not using the power they have. In that case, great responsibility falls on those who endow them with that power, particularly the U.S. It is criminal to create a huge imbalance of power in a fragile situation. It is criminally negligent to then stand back and refuse to seriously try to moderate its use.

---

This "huge imbalance of power" is an important point. Even professional athletes know this; running "up the score" in a game that is out of reach is considered a sporting insult and acts as a provocation or incitement to ugly behaviour. Not that I would consider war a game. It's not. But there is a similarity in thinking. Maybe sports are practice for war.

This pic was taken in Lebanon a few months before the war started. These woman (?) chant death to America and Israel. First of all, just look at them, all covered in black, look almost the same, brainwashed and enslaved. If the same type of "woman" could go in to the school in Russia threatening to blow up the kids, what do you expect of them or their superiors? A death cult nurtured by fanatics of Hiz-h and others of the similar kind. Lovely, very lovely. But you know as they say- do not wish death to others for it may just hunt you down beforehand. And it did.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]

quote:

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Originally posted by venus_man:

This pic was taken in Lebanon a few months before the war started. These woman (?) chant death to America and Israel. First of all, just look at them, all covered in black, look almost the same, brainwashed and enslaved. If the same type of "woman" could go in to the school in Russia threatening to blow up the kids, what do you expect of them or their superiors? A death cult nurtured by fanatics of Hiz-h and others of the similar kind. Lovely, very lovely. But you know as they say- do not wish death to others for it may just hunt you down beforehand. And it did.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:
Syria claims Shebaa Farms. It lost it in a war of aggression in which it expended its blood and treasure in an effort to end Israel.

The UN Security Council established the border between Lebanon and Israel. Israel withdrew beyond that legitimate border.

The Hezbollah's claim is invalid.

---

Ahh then, Israel should give it back to Syria. I am glad we have established that it does not belong to Israel.

Selling stolen property in this country is called "conversion." Prey tell, why is the Israeli state selling property it clearly does not own to powerful Israeli land developers like the Sharon family?

And as for your assertion that Syria started the 1967 war. This is not true. Israel started the 1967 war, by attacking the Egyptian airforce in a suprise attack...

quote:

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"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. This was a war of self-defense in the noblest sense of the term. The Government of National Unity then established decided unanimously: we will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation.

---

Menachem Begin, speech to the Israeli war college 1982

I think you should take former Prime Minister Begin's advice and be honest with yourself.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by venus_man:

This pic was taken in Lebanon a few months before the war started. These woman (?) chant death to America and Israel. First of all, just look at them, all covered in black, look almost the same, brainwashed and enslaved. If the same type of "woman" could go in to the school in Russia threatening to blow up the kids, what do you expect of them or their superiors? A death cult nurtured by fanatics of Hiz-h and others of the similar kind. Lovely, very lovely. But you know as they say- do not wish death to others for it may just hunt you down beforehand. And it did.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]

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Michelle, is the board going to accept this kind of vile and prejudiced characterization based on people's manner of dress?

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 when there was no Hezbollah, which arose in response to the occupation.

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The autonomous operation of armed militias is the root problem that was introduced by the PLO and which has been sustained by the Hezbollah. The unprovoked attacks across their northern border prompted the response of the Israelis.

quote:

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Taif Accord
Oct. 22, 1989

All the Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias are to be disbanded and disarmed and their weapons are to be turned over to the Lebanese government within six months. That is part of the detailed security program of the national reconciliation government, which is to be implemented within the period of one year with the objective of gradually spreading Lebanese sovereignty to all Lebanese territory.

UNSC Resolution 1559
Sept. 2, 2004

All Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias [i.e., Hezbollah and the Palestinian terrorist organizations] are called upon to disband and disarm.

---

* * *

quote:

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I am glad we have established that [Shebaa Farms] does not belong to Israel.

---

It was lost by Syria in its war of aggression against its neighbour. For Israel, "This was a war of self-defense in the noblest sense of the term."

All the same, you appear to agree that the Hezbollah had no cause to "resist" a nonoccupation of Lebanon. If it did act on behalf of the state of Lebanon, then, it has committed an act of war.

Israel has the right to exist and the right to defend itself. The Hezbollah are illegitimately armed and have an invalid border claim. They have created a state-within-a-state that harkens back to the PLO's interference with Lebanonese sovereighty in the past.

* * *

* * *

quote:

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And even, [it] were [...] [to] turn out to be true, Israel still has a duty to avoid killing civilians.

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There is no duty to *absolutely* avoid all risks to non-combattants. Dual purpose sites can become legitimate targets. Single purpose civilian sites are not legitimate targets. Hiding behind such sites is criminal. When that tactic rising to the level of standard military policy, it rises up the chain of command to the criminals who marshall the combattants and the military assetts.

The actual realworld duty is to make the diligent effort to avoid casualties among non-combattants.

And this the IDF/IAF do. It is intrinsic to Israeli military policy, training, and the discipline in their chain of command. For example, a fighter pilot is empowered to decide, on his own judgement, to abort a strike on a target if it becomes evident that innocent civilians are on the target. Whether in the military or back in the civilian population for whom the military fights, the Israelis demonstrate that their conscience is pressurized whenever there is loss of life among noncombattants.

That has been used against them by the Hezbollah. Those who would hold Israel to a standard based on perfection must justify that standard while also taking into account the tactics of their enemy which is based on dual purpose infrastructe and operations intended to blend the combattants into the civilian population.

* * *

quote:

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It is obscene to demolish infrastructure such as power plants, roads, bridges or airports merely because they are used by those you are fighting. Infrastructure of that sort is the skeleton of civilized life, used by everyone. Why not bomb orchards, supermarkets and cows? Terrorists use them, too.

---

This is simpleminded and self-defeating: "merely because they are used by those you are fighting".

When a target is used by both military and noncombattants, it becomes a dual purpose target. To protect the safety of civilians, a military ought to take great care to separate itself from civilian infrastructure. It makes military sense to safeguard military capabilities by providing military cover for military assetts. The capability to operate independant on civilian power grids, for example, is standard operating procedure for legitimate armies, navies, and air forces around the world.

In the Lebanon the Hezbollah's military infrastructure has been built behind, beneath, and alongside the civilian infrastructure. Command bunkers were built and THEN schools and hospitals built ontop as cover. Roadways have been mined and are used by mobile rocket launchers. Bridges of a certain size are used to transport munitions and to move military assets.

The exampe of the airport is a good one. The IAF bombed runways. It did not bomb the traffic control tower nor did it strike civilian airplanes, taxiways, and shelters. In fact, the IAF coordinated with the civilians at the aiport to get passenger planes out of harm's way. The runways are still operational for humanitarian arrivals and departures, but the damage done has made it much more difficult for the military purpose of resupplying the Hezbollah with rockets and launchers. The airport is dual purpose.

As with the selective strikes on roadways and bridges, the Israeli strike and subsequent cover of the Beruit airport has been far from obscene.

The root cause of the Hezbollah's aggression is the existence of Israel.The Hezbollah seek to eraise any border with the state of Israel. They have shown disdain for the sovereignty of Lebanon.

quote:

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slaughter is taking place in Lebanon

---

They are not fooling themselves.

Sure they understand the need to have a certain amount of disinformation floating around the world so that the porpoganda machine can fucntion to mystify the realities, and yes, they encourage that disinformation, and they are happy that people like you suck it up, and peddle it, but to people like me who have studied this situation deeply, just as the Israeli General's have, you sound like a fool.

quote:

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"Our other wars were not without an alternative. In November 1956 we had a choice. The reason for going to war then was the need to destroy the fedayeen, who did not represent a danger to the existence of the state. Thus we went off to the Sinai campaign. At that time we conquered most of the Sinai Peninsula and reached Sharm el Sheikh. Actually, we accepted and submitted to an American dictate, mainly regarding the Gaza Strip (which Ben-Gurion called 'the liberated portion of the homeland'). John Foster Dulles, the then-secretary of state, promised Ben-Gurion that an Egyptian army would not return to Gaza. The Egyptian army did enter Gaza .... After 1957, Israel had to wait 10 full years for its flag to fly again over that liberated portion of the homeland.[Gaza]

---

Begin's words are well-justified.

This is not a mere dress, but the whole lifestyle, ideology, behaviours, beliefs. There is a story behind it, a story of people, leaving people, not just who said what and when and different quotes of others, but people who feel and think and act accordingly.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:
What is the purpose of the Hezbollah's military actions? They instigate attacks. They have done so since the Israeli withdrawal of 2000.

Begin's words are well-justified.

Do you, Cueball, oppose the existence of Israel and its right to defend itself?

---

Feel free to put whatever ideological spin on the 1967 war you feel like. Sure, you can say it was a military neccessity, after all such a justification is the same age old justification on which most wars are started, and their is nothing special about it or suprising.

But lets not play with the facts of history. Irael started the war, and that it the fact. there was no Syrian agression, yes there was perhaps a threat of agression, but no such violation or invasion, or attack was made by Syria or any of the other Arab states.

quote:

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"And I always said it was impossible, that this couldn't happen in the State of Israel.

"And then, after the meeting on May 28, I said to the chief of staff and others who were present, that there had arisen a situation in which this could happen, and that it would also be well accepted - that is to say, to seize control not in the framework of wanting to govern, but in the framework of making a decision, the fundamental decision, and that [the] army can make it without the government.

"I don't remember if he agreed or not, but I think he also viewed it in this way." [1]

Sharon stressed that no definite plan existed. However, he defended giving it serious consideration, saying: "They [the civilian government] would have accepted it with a sense of relief. That was my feeling."

Prime Minister Eshkol later decided in favor of war on June 5th. Ariel Sharon served as a commander of the Southern Division. His comments may be found in full in Ma'arachot, a publication by the Israeli defense ministry.

---

Sharon considered temporary Israeli coup in 1967

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by venus_man:
Cueball: Let me guess, you are not really into fashion? Too bad. If you would be, you would then understand the significance of fashion and its relation and influence on human behaviour. And then you perhaps wouldn’t act like you are in a grade..2 by complaining to the teacher every time when needed or not.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by venus_man:
Cueball: Let me guess, you are not really into fashion? Too bad. If you would be, you would then understand the significance of fashion and its relation and influence on human behaviour. And then you perhaps wouldn’t act like you are in a grade..2 by complaining to the teacher every time when needed or not.

This is not a mere dress, but the whole lifestyle, ideology, behaviours, beliefs. There is a story behind it, a story of people, leaving people, not just who said what and when and different quotes of others, but people who feel and think and act accordingly.

---

How many more ways must the question be asked of you before you say "Yes, I support the existence of Israel and I support the right of Israel to defend itself"?

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:
How many more ways must the question be asked of you before you say "Yes, I support the existence of Israel and I support the right of Israel to defend itself"?

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You mean the right to wage war in peace, shurely. Israel has never fought a defensive war, and never ever founght on their own soil. Israel is invariably the aggressor.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:
Cueball, do you oppose the Hezbollah's multiple attacks on Israelis and Israeli territory after the Israeli withdrawal of 2000?

How many more ways must the question be asked of you before you say "Yes, I support the existence of Israel and I support the right of Israel to defend itself"?

This has been asked of you thrice. A fourth time will not be forthcoming so you can hide behind your rhetoric, just as the Hezbollah hide behind their propaganda and behind the noncombattants of Lebanon.

---

None of that has anything to do with the origins of this conflict, which are a direct result of Israeli attacks and siezures of land.

I am merely correcting the historical record. You have said that the siezure of the Golan Heights and Shebba Farms is "just" (as Anfal) because there was a Syrian "war of agression." I have now provided you with two high ranking Israeli politician/generals who both outwardly admit that Israel started the 1967 war.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Taif Accord...UN Resolution...

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Egads! Someone isn't following a UN Resolution! Heaven forbid! Fire and brimstone (or rockets and bombs) should be rained down upon them forthwith. (I hope the folks in Tel Aviv are ducking...)

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:
...just as the Hezbollah hide behind...the noncombattants of Lebanon.

---

The most oft-repeated and most seldom substantiated meme in the discourse of this conflict.

Not reporters, nor eyewitnesses, nor the IDF have shown the world anything that amounts to evidence that there is a deliberate policy of Hezbollah to use civilians as shields during specific engagements (the kind of situation the Geneva Conventions apply to). 60 people dead in Qana, nearly half of them children, and yet no Hezbollah weapons cache was found, and no evidence of Hezbollah targetting Israelis from that position.

This meme is a propaganda talking point circulated by professionals and "useful idiots" acting on the IDF's behalf. It's an information bomb intended to obliterate the clear evidence that Israel has been less than judicious in its choice of targets, in spite of Israeli officials' frank admissions that they have targetted the civilian population to put "pressure" on Hezbollah, and their even more distasteful opinion that "anyone" left in Southern Lebanon is a combattant.

I have a question - if everyone in Southern Lebanon is a combattant, just who is Hezbollah hiding behind?

Just another in the series of embarrasingly absurd contradictions produced if we follow the logics of Israeli propaganda.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:
Do you, Cueball, join with the Hezbollah in support of killing as many Israelis as possible and ending the existence of Israel?

---

No, I think they should deliver a measured response to the recent IDF attacks which should include clearing a strip - on the Israeli side of the border, obviously - ten kilometers wide, of pretty much everything and everybody in order to prevent future IDF incursions against the Lebanese people.

Also, in the interests of peace, Hezbollah should cripple the entire Israeli infrastructure which would include but not be limited to destruction of airports, major arteries, ok, all arteries, whole city blocks, production facilities, milk factories, hospitals and all habitations within the to-be-cleared border zone...and blockade the entire nation from the sea, while importing billions of dollars of arms from its principal supporters.

Any civilian casualties inflicted in the course of air attacks against undefended civilian targets such as hospitals, schools, apartment blocks and UN observation posts are, of course, deeply regretted.

And should number not less than, shall we say, 6,000 and counting, to honour the Israeli precedent of proportionality.

And, of course it must be noted, civilian casualties would be much lower if the IDF didn't resort to the cowardly strategy of requiring all adult Israeli males to do military service.

At least a million Israelis should become refugees of war, fleeing or trapped in their own ruined villages and towns.

As for the existence of Israel, I am sure that once Hezbollah have accomplished the entirely reasonable and internationally accepted goals indicated above and an international peacekeeping force occupies Israel to prevent the IDF rearming, Hezbollah may grudgingly acknowledge Israels existence.

Once, of course, it has withdrawn from the West Bank and Gaza.

quote:

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the origins of this conflict [...] are a direct result of Israeli attacks and siezures of land

---

You have shown no such direct connection.

Israel withdrew from all Lebanon territory. Now, if you want to claim that Syria, through the Hezbollah, has continued its war against Israel, that would be much more historically accurate.

Your fanciful reaction to the question asked is very hollow.

Add some substance:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chairm:
[QB]Merowe, the Israeli government exercises its authority across its northern frontier. There is no armed milia operating independantly in attacks against Lebanon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chairm:
You brought up Shebaa Farms. You have already conceded that the land is Syrian. The attacks on Israel occured since Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon. There is no direct connection between Israeli defensive response to those attacks and your theory about the origins of this conflict.

---

It is not my "theory" of the origins of the conflict. All sides agree. Major leaders from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel who were there at the time that time say that Israel started the 1967 war.

Therefore, your assertion that Israel may hold on to territories as "anfal" because of an Arab war of agression is patently false, as supported by statements by Mencham Begin and Ariel Sharon... and believe me they are not the only ones, General Yitzahk Rabin has also made similar statements.

So, it is hardly "theoretical" to look at the bald faced facts of the matter, and simply state that Israel attacked the Arab states as stated by Sharon, Begin and Rabin, and siezed their land, as is proved by the fact that the IDF still sits on that land.

Look, they are even selling it amongst themselves, to none other than the land development company owned by one of the people who was "floating" the idea of a "temporary" military coupe against civil auhtority, if the government did not comply with the Haganah's desire to go to war in 1967 -- talk about anfal! General Sharon gets a ranch!

Only in the murky metaphysical realm of the Zionashpere, does that amount to a "Syrian war of agression."

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:
B.L. Zeebub LLD, the Taff Accord is not a UN Resolution but it is a agreement that was meant to manifest Lebanonese national reconcilliation after the civil war. Its call to disarm the militias predates the UNSC Resolution 1559.

---

Thanks for the lesson, but that's not news to me.
BTW, when did it become incumbant on Israel to enforce the Taff Accord, let alone a UN Resolution? Suggesting that Israel has some right to fix Lebanon's affairs is dangerous ground considering Israel makes any effort to stop it's mistreatment of the Palestinians into an "attack". And besides, the UN is useless, without authority, and probably antisemitic, or isn't that what we hear every time they tell Israel to stop kicking Palestinians around, stop violating internationally recognised borders, comply with the Fourth Geneva Convention, stop using disproportionate force, stop using banned anti-personel weapons, etc.? I mean, if an organised state actor (something you seem to think has more authority) can't be held to UN authority, why should Hezbollah be expected to? And this brings up an important point - the rights given to states come within a framework of reciprocal recognition and responsibilities to act in accordance with the laws governing the behaviour of states. In this case, you want Israel to have the former without the latter.

Again, another one of the stinking cowpies that your ilk have been dropping hither and yon...

Face it, grounding an argument on Israel's behalf in the authority of international law and the UN is the proverbial house built on sand.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:

You brought up Shebaa Farms. You have already conceded that the land is Syrian.

---

You don't find ANYTHING the least bit ironic about this--Israel's claim that it's occupation of the Shebaa farms is OK because it's SYRIAN, not LEBANESE territory? It's not like Israel's possession is legal, however you slice it--it's still stolen property.

Fighting to save America and Israel

quote:

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Self-hating Jewish traitors formed the Marxist Haganah, which collaborated with the British. The Haganah formed joint naval patrols with the British to prevent European Jews escaping the Nazi Holocaust from entering the Land of Israel. The Haganah also murdered Irgun and Lechi freedom-fighters, and handed over other Jewish freedom-fighters to the British to be imprisoned, tortured and hanged.

In 1942, at the age of 14, Ariel Sharon joined the Marxist Haganah, and remained active with the Haganah until the group disbanded in 1948, when the State of Israel was resurrected after 2,000 years of Jewish exile.

Sharon then enlisted in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), and quickly rose through the ranks until becoming a general in the early 1950s.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Merowe:

As for the existence of Israel, I am sure that once Hezbollah have accomplished the entirely reasonable and internationally accepted goals indicated above and an international peacekeeping force occupies Israel to prevent the IDF rearming, Hezbollah may grudgingly acknowledge Israels existence.

Once, of course, it has withdrawn from the West Bank and Gaza.

Or something like that.

---

Wow. Israel cares so much about Hiz-h acceptance or non-acceptance of its existence. NOT. who the heck are them to affect Israel’s right to exist. Bunch of gangs supported by mad regime of Iran. Israel is, so is Lebanon. Hiz-h on my opinion has no place in a region.

What kind of cloathing do you wear in publilc? I need to know so that I can establish a link between your ravings and your fashion sense.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
Apparently Sharon holds deeply-rooted leftist principles while simultaneously being an unprincipled oppurtunist. He was uncomfortable as a "rightist" presumably because of the former, but if he was so unprincipled...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chairm:
Merowe, the Israeli government exercises its authority across its northern frontier. There is no armed milia operating independantly in attacks against Lebanon.

Your fanciful reaction to the question asked is very hollow.

Add some substance:

Do you, Merowe, join Hezbollah in seeking the end of Israel and the deaths of as many Israelis as possible?

---

Well, you got the 'ACROSS its northern frontier' part right, anyway.

My reaction, far from fanciful, bears an uncanny resemblance to certain 'facts on the ground'.

Which I'm sure you know nothing about. Nope. Nothing at all. Not so as you can admit them to yourself at least.

As for your last question, certainly, on the strength of the evidence, the people of Israel should be quaking in their boots! The mighty Hezbollah! In two weeks of full-on engagement with the IDF, they have killed, er....

well, ok, less than the number of crippled children killed in a single strike by the IDF in Qana.

Pretty scary! Whoa, Hezbollah! Quite the Shock and Awe! Really, they should switch to the Yanks as their weapons supplier.

My point being, Hezbollah's rhetorical flourishes about the end of the Israeli state are ridiculous and for you to seriously entertain them are an insult to the intelligence. Mine anyway, I wouldn't presume to speak for yours.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cueball:

What kind of cloathing do you wear in publilc? I need to know so that I can establish a link between your ravings and your fashion sense.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Merowe:
As for the existence of Israel, I am sure that once Hezbollah have accomplished the entirely reasonable and internationally accepted goals indicated above and an international peacekeeping force occupies Israel to prevent the IDF rearming, Hezbollah may grudgingly acknowledge Israels existence.

---

Dream on!!!

quote:

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am merely correcting the historical record. You have said that the siezure of the Golan Heights and Shebba Farms is "just" (as Anfal) because there was a Syrian "war of agression."

---

Before 1967, Syria used the Golan Heighyts as a base from whihc to lob endless shells at Israeli settlements. WHY do you suppose they did? What assurance is there that they will not go back to their old tricks if Israel ever gave them back the Golan Heights?

quote:

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For week after week after week, Hezbollah fired on Israelis, bombed Israelis, kidnapped Israelis, murdered Israelis. Israel complained, mightily, but the world community shrugged, mainly. Most notably, no one called for a ceasefire. Except Israel.

Now that Israel has finally responded, the commentariat are inflamed

---

The following sentence, from a Globe editorial of this week, is typical:

quote:

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Hezbollah provoked Israel by crossing an internationally recognized border, abducting two Israeli soldiersand killing eight more, then lobbing missiles at Israeli population centres -- more than 1,000 missiles so far.

---

Oddly (or perhaps not) the routine Globe claim that Hezbollah's cross-border raid triggered the current conflict is contradicted by the Globe's own history of reporting.

So, for instance, the Globe reported in late May of this year (sub-only, sorry) that Israel had destroyed all Hezbollah positions in Lebanon:

quote:

---

Jerusalem — Israel has destroyed most of the military positions of Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas along its northern border in the heaviest fighting since it ended its 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon, an Israeli commander said Monday.

Sunday's rocket and artillery exchanges killed two guerrillas in Lebanon and wounded two Israeli soldiers, two Lebanese civilians and six militants.

---

The day before, on May 28th, the Globe offered this report:

quote:

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BEIRUT, Lebanon — Israeli warplanes attacked Palestinian militant bases in Lebanon Sunday in response to a rocket attack on northern Israel, Lebanese officials said. One militant was killed and at least five were wounded.

The Lebanese army said six rockets were fired at a base in eastern Lebanon while several others hit a base near the Mediterranean coast.

---

The Globe, in particular, has been routinely arguing in editorials that the current conflict was triggered by a single event its own history of reporting places in a totally different context (i.e. as part of a longer conflict, as part of which Israel had claimed to destroy Hezbollah's Lebanese border bases).

And all of this is without getting into still broader historical issues.

If mere deployment were an issue, I guess the Arabs case against Israel is stonger than I thought. Thanks for that.

I wonder why Israel has 150 Nuclear warheads? Hmmmm.... deployed.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sven:

Dream on!!!

Hezbollah will not rest until Israel is destroyed.

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Uh, yeah. With all their cluster bombs, Apache helicopters, F-15 fighter bombers, 20,000 soldiers, naval ships, Abrams tanks, nuclear weapons, Hezbollah are just gonna STEAMROLLER the token resistance of the notoriously battle-shy IDF.

Oh! Wait a minute....

quote:

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Hezbollah has every bit as much right to fire at Israel as Israel has to fire at them.

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Hezbollah is not a sovereign state. It is an independant armed militia attacking a sovereign state. It is also occupying part of Lebanon, another sovereign state. It is illegitimate.

quote:

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Israel started the 1967 war

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Israel fired the first shot in self-defence; the war was not started by that shot. Egypt and its allies presented an imminent threat, and telegraphed that threat, but they where rapidly defeated by a state which they had planned to eraise from the map. It was a war of aggression -- by Egypt and its allies.

Nasser: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations."

No state is obligated to endure an overwhelming attack before taking decisive action to defend itself.

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Thanks for the lesson, but that's not news to me.

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You gave a different impression in your earlier comment.

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Suggesting that Israel has some right to fix Lebanon's affairs

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No, but they have a definite right to remove the threat that the Hezbollah have been keen to build on Israel's northern border.

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It's not like Israel's possession is legal, however you slice it--it's still stolen property.

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Captured in war. Israel has offered to return almost all of it provided that Syria, like Jordan and Egypt, agrees to recognize Israel's right to exist, and to defend itself, and negotiates the terms of peace between the two sovereign neighbours. If Syria wants to give it away to Lebanon, that's between those two neighbours.

However, it appears that Syria is afraid that Lebanon might make its own peace with Israel so the current Syrian regime uses the Hezbollah to keep a dog in the fight.

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Sure they understand the need to have a certain amount of disinformation floating around the world so that the porpoganda machine can fucntion to mystify the realities, and yes, they encourage that disinformation, and they are happy that people like you suck it up, and peddle it, but to people like me who have studied this situation deeply, just as the Israeli General's have, you sound like a fool.

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How many were killed in Qana?

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And as such, nearly a week after the event, many questions remain unanswered. Where did the report that "some 60 people" were killed come from and what was it based on?
What are the bases for estimations that more bodies remain under the rubble and how do they know how many bodies are there? Why wasn't the 48-hour ceasefire used to bring in heavy equipment from Beirut to dig in the rubble?
These questions can only be answered by the Lebanese but they are in no rush to dispel the cloud over what they labeled "The second Qana massacre."

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Who is creating conspiracy and confusion? Who is telling lies?
Further more why is it when Israel does an action against the Hezbollah they are always suspects or it’s according to Israel or Israel claims. And when an incident like the one in Qana happens the Israeli’s are 100% to blame with no proper investigation for the worst possible crime? I don’t know what to call this double standard? It’s certainly not moral or democratic. Democratic would be innocent until proven guilty. Could it be just a little prejudice? A little racist? A little anti-Semitic? May just ignorance?

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

btw, do you know the origin of the swastika symbol? i think we really need to take a closer look at Hinduism as a religion (as well as all the other cultures and societies where the swastika was used over three millenia)...

while we're at it, can we ban the use of camo as a fashion statement? and i make that last comment without tongue placed firmly in cheek. it does, imho, actually glorify war.

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: zizou ]

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The festival organizers have also announced they have cancelled sponsorship from the Israeli Embassy in protest against the current conflict in the Middle East. The money would have helped to pay for Shamir's visit to the festival in time for the documentary's screenings on Aug. 16 and 18.

"This funding was secured before the current hostilities in Lebanon. Of course we acknowledge that the situation has altered dramatically since then, and with this in mind, took the decision to decline any funding from the Israelis," said the film festival's artistic director Shane Danielsen in a statement released Thursday.

Danielsen revealed the sponsorship amount was quite small, about 300 pounds ($637 Cdn) but said "there comes a point when you have to make a stand against these things."

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[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: spatrioter ]

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Originally posted by Chairm:
Do you, Cueball, join with the Hezbollah in support of killing as many Israelis as possible and ending the existence of Israel?

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[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Chairm:

Hezbollah is not a sovereign state. It is an independant armed militia attacking a sovereign state. It is also occupying part of Lebanon, another sovereign state. It is illegitimate.

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No it isn't. In fact, this entire situation extends from the fact that non-state militias with the firepower of Hezbollah have not really been considered by international law and the laws of warfare, except where they act as paramilitary supplements to state militaries as in the case of infamous South American "death squads" or the Serbian Tigers and White Eagles of Arkan and his ilk in the former Yugoslavia. I cannot be more clear about this. Hezbollah is no more illegitimate than the Michigan Militia. Their actions may be legitimate causus belli for Israel but their existence is not specifically circumscribed by international law or custom.

Your second point is an even bigger crock. Hezbollah is not legally "occupying" Lebanon. They are an organisation operating within sovereign Lebanese territory and participating - legitimately - in the governance of the State of Lebanon. Hezbollah did not capture Southern Lebanon from the Lebanese government. Now, if you want to talk occupations, you might turn your attention to Shebba Farms, The West Bank, and/or Gaza. And before you prattle on about Syria and shelling, it is paramount to note that regardless of Israel's justifications, the international community considers the Golan to be sovereign Syrian territory militarily occupied by Israel. UNSC Resolution 497 reads, "the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect..." -- i.e. it is illegal. Oh, and about the shelling, Moshe Dayan had this to say,

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It would happen like this: We would send a tractor to plow someplace of no value, in the demilitarized zone, knowing ahead of time that the Syrians would begin to shoot. If they did not start shooting, we would tell the tractor to keep going forward, until the Syrians in the end would get nervous and start shooting. And then we would start firing artillery, and later also the airforce, and this was the way it was. I did this, and Laskov and Tzur [two previous commanders-in-chief] did it. Yitzhak Rabin did it when he was there , but it seems to me that it was Dado, more than anyone else, who enjoyed these games.

...They suffered a lot because of the Syrians. Look, as I said before, they lived in the kibbutzim, they farmed, raised children, lived and wanted to live there. The Syrians opposite them were soldiers who shot at them and they certainly did not like this. But I can tell you in absolute certainly: the delegation that came to convince Eshkol to attack the Heights did not think about these things. It thought about the land on the Heights. Listen, I am also a farmer. I'm from Nahalal, not from Tel Aviv, and I recognize this. I saw them, and I talked to them. They did not even try to hide their greed for that soil. That's what guided them.

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Originally posted by venus_man:

This pic was taken in Lebanon a few months before the war started. These woman (?) chant death to America and Israel. First of all, just look at them, all covered in black, look almost the same, brainwashed and enslaved. If the same type of "woman" could go in to the school in Russia threatening to blow up the kids, what do you expect of them or their superiors? A death cult nurtured by fanatics of Hiz-h and others of the similar kind. Lovely, very lovely. But you know as they say- do not wish death to others for it may just hunt you down beforehand. And it did.

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This is an absolutely despicable and racist post. If you post anything like this again on babble, where you make such nasty generalizations based on a cultural manner of dress, you will be gone so fast your head will spin.

Also, this thread is long enough. Feel free to start a new one, preferably one without racist generalizations about Muslim women in it.

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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How many were killed in Qana?

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Oh gosh, it was only 28??? Only 28, and only 19 of them children. And still no evidence of Hezbollah military action in the immediate area. I guess it's okay that they only killed 28 people (incl. 19 children) for no reason, because it's certainly worlds better to only kill 28...