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You might be surprised at what they can do to eff up your life.

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Like what and wouldn't it be traceable?

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I don't really have a strategy to offer but there are quite a few businesses in town that I will never go back to because the staff were rude. I generally make a point of letting them know why they lost my business

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I've had a few instances where I've been uncomfortable. A handful of times when I've purchased a book that is controversial the staff have commented negatively, rolled their eyes, or done something pretty obvious. I've handled it different ways but the best approach I've found it to take the purchase back in hand and ask for the manager to re-assign you to another cashier without losing your point in line. When she or he calls the manager share your experience and you will probably be rung through by the manager directly.

I had another experience where we were shopping for a mother's day present for my husband's mother and the store clerk - with me present- started to flirt with my husband. He steadfastly ignored her, referred to her as "ma'am" etc but she seemed to think it was some great sales strategy. When she departed for a moment I said that I was going to say something if it continued and, despite his preference, I did. Anytime we've gone back she stays FAR FAR away. I'm SURE she has a Hailey voo-doo doll at home.

My sister has had her babies quite quickly and has not been able to lose the weight before starting off on another pregnancy. As a result she is heavier than the weight she desires. A small number of occasions when we've gone into a business together a store clerk has gone up to her and said "We don't carry your size" which I think is completely rude. Could she not be shopping for someone else? could she not be keeping me company? could she not have a 1000 other reasons to be here? Out of deference for her feelings I have never tackled that one but it BURNS me.

On the other end of the spectrum I have worked as both a waitress and at a mechanics shop both of which were business owned by relatives or family friends. I'm not sure that I agree with nepotism now for a variety of reasons but at the time I hadn't contemplated those issues. I just wanted some spending money! In both of those settings I found that people had the capacity to be very rude. I was reluctant to involve management because I didn't want to appear to be misusing a relationship. In retrospect I should have dealt with that much differently.

At the family style restaurant we were open all hours and I worked nights sometimes. Those were the worst with drunken men - who have an exaggerated sense of how hot they are and who feed off of each other - making comments of even touching you. For the most part I'd ask one of the male servers to switch tables with me and that was accommodated. On a few occasions when I didn't choose that option or a guy wasn't around I suffered through it and once I ended up saying something incredibly vulgar back. It was a joke for weeks and weeks after. I disappointed myself tremendously. At the mechanics shop it was the other employees and I never found a strategy. I'd like to think I'd deal with that stuff differently now.

An interesting issue to me is how while people are willing to take on the bank teller, the waitress, or someone in the retail sales industries you don't hear of people being willing to translate that skill over to other fields. At the hospital I saw MANY nurses be inexcusably rude to patients and many patients along with their families would just suck it up. Very few went to the Patient Care Manager either from lack of awareness, having their focus on the hospitalization, and/or fear. And doctors? People really didn't challenge them much all.

I'm always amazed that people will stand up for themselves over the promptness with which they are served a coke but accept marginal treatment on matters of more importance.

[ 24 July 2005: Message edited by: Hailey ]

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Originally posted by Hailey:
I've had a few instances where I've been uncomfortable. A handful of times when I've purchased a book that is controversial the staff have commented negatively, rolled their eyes, or done something pretty obvious.

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Okay, now you've got me curious. What kind of books would get such a reaction?

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An interesting issue to me is how while people are willing to take on the bank teller, the waitress, or someone in the retail sales industries you don't hear of people being willing to translate that skill over to other fields. At the hospital I saw MANY nurses be inexcusably rude to patients and many patients along with their families would just suck it up. Very few went to the Patient Care Manager either from lack of awareness, having their focus on the hospitalization, and/or fear. And doctors? People really didn't challenge them much all.

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That's intereting, Hailey, the example you gave about the clothing sales clerk who told your sister, "We don't carry your size here."

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It wasn't said crossly, it was said matter of factly. I just think it's rude.

It's also happened when we've gone to smaller consignment stores that carry something for all ages and sizes that they start to point out to her where the plus sizes are. Particularly when she's not shopping for herself and we are picking up something for a niece or nephew that seems to hurt her feelings more.

She is VERY sensitive about her weight and it just aggravates it.

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Originally posted by Hailey:

A friend of hers that she exercises with who shares the same weight loss/fitness goals has told us stories where people have actually said "Do you need to eat that?" when she's been eating an ice cream or such. I've NEVER seen that but the whole idea is TOO RUDE.

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Originally posted by Hailey:
An interesting issue to me is how while people are willing to take on the bank teller, the waitress, or someone in the retail sales industries you don't hear of people being willing to translate that skill over to other fields. At the hospital I saw MANY nurses be inexcusably rude to patients and many patients along with their families would just suck it up.

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It's a matter of who a person sees as superior or inferior to themselves. I found as a cashier that the rude customers were almost always people who felt they were above me, that I was just some stupid person they could push around. I've actually had people I know tell me that "that's what they're paid for" if they treat a service clerk badly. Yeah, they're paid minimum wage to not only do manual labour on their feet all day, but to also take your shit and abuse.

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people have actually said "Do you need to eat that?" when she's been eating an ice cream or such. I've NEVER seen that but the whole idea is TOO RUDE.

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It happened once when I was standing in a lineup eating french fries, and once when I ate a couple of Valentine's Day chocolates that were put out for us at work. Each time, some total stranger -- each time it was a middle-aged man with a hefty spare tire -- asked, "Are you sure you should be eating that, young lady?" Each time I said something along the lines of, "Why not?" and the man said, "Well, aren't you watching your weight?" "No," I snapped. "Are you watching my weight?"

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Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
I have a private theory that everyone, at some point in their life, should be obliged to work as a cashier/waiter/waitress for a period of at least 2 months (a summer job would count). Just so they know what it's like.

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Not so private a theory. I think so too. Or cab-driver, any job in which one deals directly with the public.

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Originally posted by puzzlic:
I don't doubt that people feel freer to "let loose" their rudeness and aggression toward people they see as their social inferiors. Often, it's the rudeness that tips me off that the person I'm dealing with thinks I'm his or her social inferior.

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Yes, puzzlic! This is an important dynamic to point out: that gender, race and class of course mediate how any of us experience these interactions.

I worked in a retail store for over 8 years, the past 7 as a manager. This was also a woman-run, feminist place of business. It was shocking and disheartening, over the years, to see the rudeness that the staff had to put up with, and over the years, it was always the staff of colour who reported the rudest behaviour from customers. As if there was a "permission" level to treat staff/clerks of colour this way, knowing they can't answer back. We were clear that staff did not have to tolerate this kind of crappy behaviour, and to call one of the managers down at any point for backup.

I look fairly young, and sometimes a "high maintenance" customer would be trolling for trouble, and the staff would call me down to deal with it, or the customer would angrily demand to "see the manager". Then I come bopping down the stairs, looking sometimes like I'm in my mid-20s (on a good day ), and they would look at me, not wanting to take me seriously. That was always fun for me. Also backing up the staff when the customer was not expecting it. You've all seen my deadly serious posts, yes? I can be like that in person too.

It was also great and cool that both managers were women of colour.

[ 24 July 2005: Message edited by: bigcitygal ]

It never fails to amaze me how, when I get involved previously snarky clerks get all nice and co-operative. And, I don't show up with brass knuckles, appear threatening or anything.

When I was young, I used to be sceptical about the tales my ex would tell me about getting bad service because she was female. But I've dealt with it too much to be a sceptic anymore.

This perception-of-class theme reminds me of an interesting story an old friend of mine told me recently. He cleans exterior windows on skyscrapers, using abseiling gear, swinging around stories and stories high above the pavement. He says that when he's working anything above four stories high people treat him like some kind of glamorous stuntman demigod; anything lower than that he becomes an invisible half-wit cleaner.

[ 24 July 2005: Message edited by: Suzette ]

I had a boss who only gave me a raise when minimum wage went up (thank goodness I had this job during the NDP years in Ontario!) and he would often "forget" or "miscalculate" and leave hours off my paycheque, or he'd find ways around paying overtime (like averaging my weekly hours over two weeks even though he wasn't allowed to do that without my express agreement which I had never given). I would also have to deal with petty power trips among other low-wage staff with more status than I had (even after 4 years, I was still the person with least seniority except for one part-timer).

The days were long, and they sucked so badly. I developed close friendships with a few of my coworkers (I still see one of them occasionally when I visit Kingston) but the job was difficult, tiring, and soul-deadening.

And so, when I got the umpteenth customer who insisted on dumping her whole change purse on the counter and picking out the 87 cents so that I could give her five dollars change instead of four dollars and 13 cents, while there were 3 people lined up behind her, I wouldn't be particularly gracious about it. When I had a couple of asshole teachers who came in and started whining together about how the Rae Days were such a Deep Travesty Of Justice, and that maybe they should just ask for a cut in pay so that they could at least qualify for the GST credit (which meant they earned more than three times as much as I did) and then said to me, "Don't you think?" when they got to the cash, I admit I was a bit snarky about it and told them I could only dream of 12 extra days off per year and a salary above the GST credit cut off, as I was only entitled to ten for my entire yearly vacation, I was working 7 days a week (my boss kindly agreed to give me a few extra hours so I could make ends meet - by letting me work Sunday afternoons on top of my Monday-to-Saturday shifts) and was earning 6 bucks an hour.

After the tenth person that day was rude to me or complained about stuff that was beyond my control, I admit that sometimes I started pulling petty little power trips like charging people for the full 16 buns they put in the bag and tried to pass off as a dozen. I look back now and wonder why I should give a shit whether some customer ripped off my idiot boss. And I realize that the reason had nothing to do with my boss or the stealing aspect - it was because I wanted them to know that I'm not some brainless idiot who can't tell the difference between a dozen and a dozen and a half, and that they're not dealing with a moron. It was a feeling that they were insulting my intelligence.

I have never been like that since in any job I've had, even an intolerable inbound call centre job where I was a customer service clerk for a calling card company. That cashier job brought out the absolute worst in me. There were enough asshole customers that eventually, instead of seeing everyone as a potential nice person until they proved to be an asshole, I saw everyone as a potential asshole until they proved themselves to be nice.

I was never overtly rude to people. And often I was nice to people and in a good mood. But there were also times when I was passive-aggressive with people, like being a jerk about timing for sales (end of day 1/2 price sale started an hour before closing, and no, you can't have it for half price an hour and a half before closing), etc. I used to resent it when people asked me to bend the rules for them, because I thought, for all they know, I could get fired for not following the rules, but they don't give a shit, they just want me to gamble with my job in order to give them what they want because they think my job is worthless and by extension, so was I. Probably most of them actually DIDN'T think that way about me, but I got enough overt condescension and ill treatment from those who thought I was beneath them that I started to feel like that was the default attitude of all customers.

When I look back at it now, I cringe at some of the pettiness. But you know, the whole atmosphere of retail sales jobs in most places is petty pay, petty rules, petty powertrips between co-workers who all have petty positions, petty nickel-and-diming from your employer, petty store rules, and petty annoyances with common customer foibles. In an atmosphere of overwhelming pettiness in every aspect of your working life, it's really hard not to get swept up in it.

I think people who haven't spent a good deal of time (I'm not talking about a 5 hour a week part-time job during grade 11, I'm talking about your full-time job that you live off of) in one of these types of employment situations can't really understand what drives a retail sales clerk to act either dismissive or downright rude on occasion.

Since that job I had, I am inclined to forgive an awful lot, unless the person is downright hostile. I can handle indifference or even slight impatience. I usually try to be one of the "extra nice" customers because I remember how that used to really brighten my day.

When I printed those, I'd always make sure to put them at the top of the pile of prints. Most people would rip the envelope open and start looking at their prints while you made change and printed their receipt. Their discomfort, upon realizing that I was the guy who just printed, and looked at, this photo of them was amusing to my minimum-wage self.

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I think it's also a class issue, which I'm betting was what Hailey was alluding to.

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I think it is a class issue. There are other factors though. A patient may just not feel well enough to engage into a debate as was suggested in a post above but that doesn't quite explain the understated reaction of relatives. There is also the reality that the patient is often on very unfamiliar ground, feels vulnerable, and assumes a more deferential role.

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Whenever I see people being obnoxious with CSRs, I always think, "That person has never had a retail/server job."

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Honestly I can be very awkward with people in customer service roles despite my own employment history. I don't abuse people because I'm having a bad day. I always say hello and ask them how they are - and I even wait rather than just blurt the words out due to social training.

And I really don't ask for a lot - above all don't think I'm your friend and ask me questions about myself, don't tell me about your relationship with your boss or your bad day, run the purchase through in as timely a way as possible with technological factors and other issues out of their control readily accepted, and try to be patient if my kids are fussing. I don't particularly care if they are slightly abrupt or impatient. Nobody needs to kiss my butt because I'm spending $1.69 on a slurpee.

Bigcitygirl I absolutely accept your report but I am astounded people would be more rude to black women.

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Michelle: Yes, that's partly what I was alluding to. There is this perception that doctors particularly are more worthy humans and therefore must be bowed before... a perception alarmingly prevalent amongst doctors themselves, in my experience.

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A doctor who thinks that? No way!

You know, Michelle, i read your post and you have very high standards for yourself. I think the person that is asking you to do things outside of the rules is the person being ill-mannered and putting you on the spot. The person trying to steal 4 extra buns is putting you on the spot as well. I don't think you have to accommodate either of their ridiculous needs. People fooling around with change so that you get snapped at by the other customers who are waiting don't always deserve ample patience. A reminder that other people are waiting is not unkind.

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I think people who haven't spent a good deal of time (I'm not talking about a 5 hour a week part-time job during grade 11, I'm talking about your full-time job that you live off of) in one of these types of employment situations can't really understand what drives a retail sales clerk to act either dismissive or downright rude on occasion.

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Hmm, no..honestly..no.

I don't think I was ever downright rude to someone who was undeserving and I don't expect someone to be like that with me.

Dismissive? yeah, it's been a long day for them..I don't care...

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If a clerk ever crosses that kind of line with me (or the next customer in line), I don't have any problem with saying something about it

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Me either.

Michelle, what do you do when you see a boss being rude to an employee?

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Since that job I had, I am inclined to forgive an awful lot, unless the person is downright hostile. I can handle indifference or even slight impatience. I usually try to be one of the "extra nice" customers because I remember how that used to really brighten my day.

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I'm patient, not hostile, and forgive indifference or slight impatience - not more bold rudeness. Although I'm cordial and ask them how they are I'd never say I'm "extra nice" as a general rule. My husband is much more that way and I can see it means something to people. I remember during exam week a clerk that waits on us regularly seemed tired. My husband told her he remembered working during exam week and didn't envy anyone else doing it so take her time - no rush. He's just thematically that way. Me? It would never occur to me. He also tells them personal things which drives me mad but that's another story!

Mr. Magoo what sensible person takes those photos to a small lab? Why would someone not go to somewhere like costco or superstore that produced them in bulk and don't individually handle them.

Or better yet, why not NOT take them in the first place.

But in the past, as a customer, I have told the manager that watching him or her mistreat employees has made my visit to their store or restaurant a very unpleasant experience, and one that I won't be repeating. If they make excuses or try to blame it on the employee, I tell them, "Everyone makes mistakes. No one deserves to be yelled at or called names. That's abusive and you have no right to treat anyone that way, whether they work for you or not."

myself and my girlfriend are looking at various wedding venues, and we had a 3pm appointment at a 4-star hotel for a combined ceremony/reception.

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myself and my girlfriend are looking at various wedding venues,

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Awwwww.

Have we had a chance to say congratulations before, WW? No matter: congratulations anyway, to you both.

I often think that (perceived) class or vulnerability to power is a factor on both giving and receiving ends too, although on the turf of medicine, I've sure met a few doctors and nurses who must be thinking that they are in a class of their own.

Nurses in particular are often so overworked that they become either short-tempered or fairly cold, I think. I don't know how the one who pushed me down and told me to shut up was perceiving me in class terms, but, given that I was in shock and heavily drugged at the time, she was certainly correctly perceiving me as powerless. I am never gonna forget that woman -- she comes back to me in the middle of the night sometimes.

Medicine is changing, but at least some of that change has come from ordinary people, especially women, who finally began to question conventional medical arrogance and rebelled against it. I think it is so important to keep that pressure up. It even makes medical practice better: remember that medical professionals are mostly running on received information -- they aren't scientists themselves -- and our resistance and doubt and critical thinking can provoke them to keep their own critical skills alive.

About sniffy retail greetings: so many young women of my cohort had that experience walking into Holt Renfrew in days gone by: "Sorry, dear, but there's nothing here for you." I always used to wonder: who is allowed to shop here? Now, of course, I wouldn't bother, but in those days, HR wasn't as ballistically expensive as it is now -- just snooty.

Good experiences: For several years, scads of retail workers in our stretch of Bloor Street took care of us in medical extremity. I can't get over how good they were to us. No panic; no stigmatization; just something that looked like caritas, real love for your fellow human beans. I am making lists of all the names I know (and I got to know them all), and when I can, I shall repay them.

One guy drove off with the pump still attached, and broke it. I'm sure he felt awful. But I'd had an awful day and instead of being nice about it, I was just pissed off that he broke the pump and I had to do all the paperwork to report it, and treated him like he was the biggest idiot. I still feel bad about that.

Then there was the lady who drove through the front window (stoned). She got out of the car, we got her plate, and then she thought she'd pull a fast one. When my back was turned she jumped back in the car and s-l-o-w-l-y drove away. She parked her car in her driveway... two houses down. I was a jerk to her too, far beyond what was called for in the situation. Now I think it's hysterical, but at the time I was livid: "Who drives through an f-ing window, BREAKING my gas station, and then tries to sneak away???"

I was a jerk because I worked alone (no manager, no co-workers) so no one was there to see me. The job totally sucked. I knew that if someone complained to my manager he wouldn't even care, really.

My ex worked a lot of minimum wage jobs serving the public, so I know all about rude or idiot customers. So I'm always polite to these workers, and fire back "You too" when they end the transaction with "Have a nice day."

And I also try to help by having keeping my wits about me when in line. Nothing like a long line up at a place like Tim Horton's, and when people--after spending five minutes in said line with nothing to do but read the menu items on the big board-- start to make up their mind when the cashier says "Can I help who's next please?"

One of the few times I did get rude was in a Tim Horton's line up. It was in the morning rush, and a woman was disputing the cost of a hot chocolate with the manager, with the line running behind her all the way outside.

In a loud and terse voice, I offered to pay the .35 cents to get the line moving.

The Doctor's office.

I don't blame Doctors. I blame their office managers. When you have a routine hour's delay between showing up at the appointed time, and actually getting sat down in the examining room, then that's just orgainizational incompetence.

It's rude and shows a pathological disrespect for other people.

Speaking of which, it was my GP's office mangager that really screwed around my youngest. She went tthere to get our GP's signature on her passport application. Since professionals can't charge for such a service, the manager told my youngest to wait, and she'd get the Doctor to sign it on the fly.

Well, my youngest waited and waited, very patiently, respecting the Doctor's time. After an hour and a half, she finally inquired, and the office manager said "oh, the doctor has left for the day." Not "Oh, I'm terribly sorry, the Doctor has left for the day."

That's a whole saga in itself, my youngest getting her passport done. The Doctor's office was just a part of a continuous run of clerks treating her badly.

It was my idea to let her do everything herself-- this Dad has a habit of perhaps doing too much for his daughters at times, and that isn't always the most edifying thing for them.

It makes you think, though, doesn't it? Hearing what some people have to work with?

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Originally posted by Hailey:
Mr. Magoo what sensible person takes those photos to a small lab? Why would someone not go to somewhere like costco or superstore that produced them in bulk and don't individually handle them.

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I worked in the photo processing trade for 6 years. You'd be amazed what people take pictures of, foolishly assuming that some machine does all the printing and no human eyes ever see the pix.

In the places where I worked we had a professional dominiatrix as a regular customer; we had a guy who regularly liked to photograph his bulk marijuana purchases; and don't get me started on the pix from college fraternity hazings.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Is there really no way to crack down on ignorant louts who disrupt peaceful train travel by talking loudly on their cellphones?

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
I don't blame Doctors. I blame their office managers. When you have a routine hour's delay between showing up at the appointed time, and actually getting sat down in the examining room, then that's just orgainizational incompetence.

It's rude and shows a pathological disrespect for other people.

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Um, no. It's not the office managers that make the decision to book 7 people into a one hour timeslot. That's the doctor's decision. The reasoning behind it being that they figure they can have a 10 minute appointment with 5 of them and that two of them won't show up.

My obstetrician did that - it used to make me crazy. I was working at a temp job, and they would basically book 30 people in the morning, and whoever showed up first would get served first. They'd say your appointment was at 10, or 11, or whatever, but as soon as you got there, you were at the end of the line up of women sitting in the hallway waiting area outside the office. I generally waited about half an hour to an hour for my appointments after arriving there on time. Then when he did the check up, he'd have one hand on the doorknob the whole time just raring to get out of there and onto the next person. The guy must've made seven hundred grand a year, it was such a turnstile.

I complained to the admin person there one time about the wait, and told her that I was taking time off work and couldn't afford to lose a whole morning's worth of wages, and she said she was sorry, that she has to book a certain number of people. I said, "Then why do you make appointments at all? Why not just call it walk-in?" Then I told her I had to leave and would call her back to book another appointment.

I'm not letting the doctors off the hook, because they sit and negotiate with the bureaucrats regularly over these things, but it is true that they get paid by rules that they don't write themselves. They can defy those rules, of course, but they pay for doing that.

It sure isn't the clerks' fault, though.

A nice medical-clerk story: a couple of weeks ago I went to a clinic for an annual appointment, and as I was fumbling for my hospital card, the clerk on duty said to me, entirely straight-faced, "I'll have the VISA too."

I tell you -- I did a serious double-take. She gave me a few seconds, and then she burst out laughing, and then so did I. And over the next fifteen minutes or so, I heard her try that same line on three or four newcomers, always with the same effect: initial stunned reaction, and then general laughter.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
If I get cruddy service in a restaurant, why would I be inclined to leave a tip? In addition to not tipping someone who doesn't deserve it, I'll make a point to tell management what I thought of their lousy service, and I'll stay the hell away from that establishment in the future.

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If the service is just slow, or if the server seems hard to get ahold of, oftentimes it's not his/her fault.

Dining-room managers are notorious for understaffing the front of the house. Also, your server can only bring your food as fast as the kitchen puts it up. They can be understaffed, too. Or, somebody took too many reservations for that hour (if it's that kind of place), and they're 'slammed.' Owners who are allowed to answer the phone are notorious overbookers.

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Originally posted by fern hill:
The person calling is somehow more important than the person standing right there?

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Originally posted by fern hill:
The person calling is somehow more important than the person standing right there? I haven't done it yet, but I've been very tempted to reach over and disconnect the call.

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If that were to happen to me, I'd walk out of the store and not return. I have zero tolerance for deliberate rudeness.

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I'm SURE she has a Hailey voo-doo doll at home.

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*tee hee*

Good post, Michelle, on being behind the rude person behind the counter.

I agree everyone should have to waitress, work retail, etc. at some point. Esp. when people get ticked at the server for poor service, when maybe it has more to do with the kitchen being backed up, the hostess slamming them with more tables at once than they can handle, not having enough bussers, etc. Its a stressful job (though I'll admit I also loved it), and I don't think its surprising that if you deal with several hundred people a day, you might not be in a perfect temperment for every single interaction. I also get its annoying, frustrating, offensive to be the one who gets rudeness or indifference when all they did was be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:
I acquired a new client once who told me why he had changed lawyers. He had been sitting across the desk from his lawyer when the lawyer's assistant buzzed him, he apologized to the client and said "I'm sorry, I've been waiting for this urgent call." No problem. But then it happened a second time. And then a third. At that point, the client quietly got up while the lawyer was engrossed in the call, walked out, found a pay phone, and phoned the lawyer. When he was put through, the lawyer asked "where did you go?" The client replied "to find a new lawyer" and hung up.

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Good one. Pet peeve: lawyers who are only willing to take certain phone calls. A lawyer should take all of them or none of them. Certain exceptions apply, of course, like when he's trying to get out the door to go to Court, I'd always put through a call from the client or opposing counsel.

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
And I also try to help by having keeping my wits about me when in line. Nothing like a long line up at a place like Tim Horton's, and when people--after spending five minutes in said line with nothing to do but read the menu items on the big board-- start to make up their mind when the cashier says "Can I help who's next please?"

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If there's a short line or none at all, I won't enter the service area until I've decided.

From Hailey:

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I'm SURE she has a Hailey voo-doo doll at home.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
God. Remind me not to go out for a bite to eat with you anytime, Boom Boom. I'd be horribly embarassed to be out with someone who treats servers that badly.

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One time in Quebec City, in a tourist hotspot, the waiter would use only French which I'm not terribly fluent in, and discovering I was English, took my order nonetheless. After fifteen minutes (it was a breakfast meal, just a few other customers in the place) with no food or even a coffee on my table, I said 'fuck it' and walked out. It was a fairly substantial breakfast order as I was starved. But, fuck it, I won't tolerate such insolence.

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I agree insolence wasn't the right word, but he seems perfectly justified to have walked out.

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The person calling is somehow more important than the person standing right there?

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When I worked at the camera store, we were told to answer the phone when it rings, unless we were particularly involved with a customer. It sounds cold, but there's a not-unreasonable reason: the customer standing right there can clearly see that we're very busy and we're multitasking; the customer calling cannot, and might assume we just don't answer the phone.

edited to add:
From M-W: One entry found for insolent.
1 : insultingly contemptuous in speech or conduct

...which is _precisely_ the behaviour I was describing.

[ 25 July 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
He stated twice that the place wasn't busy.

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Well, it might not have been busy but that doesn't mean that the servers weren't otherwise occupied.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
It sounds cold, but there's a not-unreasonable reason: the customer standing right there can clearly see that we're very busy and we're multitasking; the customer calling cannot, and might assume we just don't answer the phone.

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quote:

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Okay - "insolence" was an inappropriate word. What would be a better term for being treated rudely and ignored?

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you may have been treated curtly, offensively, boorishly...

[ 25 July 2005: Message edited by: Debra ]

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I tip a full 20% at both the Frontenac and the Swiss Fondue with gratitude.

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http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/ShowJob_en.asp?OrderNum=1493574&Source=JobPosting

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Originally posted by EFA:

A full 20%? That's standard tippage.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Yes - anything less would be substandard, which I would offer for substandard service.

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But you were saying how magnificent these restaurants were. And you chose to reward that magnificence by offering a standard tip but "with gratitude."

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Well, the food in these places is quite expensive to begin with, and 20% on top for a tip really adds up. The same food anywhere else would likely be 50% cheaper. But I paid the full 20% with gratitude because the food and the service were just excellent. Maybe I am a waiter's nightmare. Is there a 12-step program for people like me?

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Originally posted by EFA:
Or maybe "Up with which I shall not put!!!" Harrumph! [Flounce.]

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I love it!

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
If I get cruddy service in a restaurant, why would I be inclined to leave a tip? In addition to not tipping someone who doesn't deserve it,

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1. Tips are usually pooled amongst the staff, some of whom didn't have anything to do with your poor service.

2. Often times the poor service is not the server's fault. It is for example the fault of the cook who messed up your order or the owner who didn't hire enough staff.

3. Unfortunately talking to the owner usually results in some action against the server or the other staff who didn't have anything to do with your problem (this response is not limitted to restaurants). On occasion by complaining to the manager I have gotten a free meal.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
About tipping in restaurants: why does this system exist in the first place? Are not food servers (and everyone engaged in the restaurant business) not entitled to a decent (far abve minimum) wage? I bear food servers no ill will, but I think tipping is a ridiculous practice. Everything should be included in the price of the meal to reflect the real costs of food, production, overhead, and labour.

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I ordered a dinner special, while she got a dragon maki. The server informed her that the a la carte maki doesn't come with miso soup or a salad, but that she'd be glad to comp us one if Mrs. M. wanted it. Mrs. M. adores their miso soup, and said yes.

Now comping someone a miso soup is, financially, like giving them a few extra ketchup packets, but as it made Mrs. M.'s meal, and thus by extension mine too, we certainly kept that in mind when tipping.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Interesting thread. Now, the inevitable thread drift: Is the 20% tip standard across the country? Who decides these things? If a client is unsatisfied with the meal or the food server, is there allowance made for a reduced tip? Who is the authority when it comes to gratuities - do we have to defer to Revenue Canada for guidelines? Does someone put out a tipster's manual?

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We've got a new questions only thread for posts like this but anyway ...

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Now comping someone a miso soup is, financially, like giving them a few extra ketchup packets, but as it made Mrs. M.'s meal, and thus by extension mine too, we certainly kept that in mind when tipping.

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Originally posted by EFA:
Yes, it's called Tipping for Dummies.

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
When did it become 20%. I still tip 15%.

Is there some secret body that decides how much should be tipped?

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
It's sold alongside _Insolence For Dummies_ (which I gather is a bestseller).

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The guy must've made seven hundred grand a year, it was such a turnstile.

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Hmm doubtful. There is a limit to how much they can bill and they are expected to have all expenses (like rent and staff) come out of that amount.

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A full 20%? That's standard tippage.

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If you enjoyed your meal and the service was good, it is expect that you will tip 15-20% in North America. In a decent restaurant its 20%.

However its 'expected' not demanded or mandatory.

Customers suck Journal

Bad Service Journal

Waiter Rant Blog

Cook rant (for Gir)

Manhattan Waitress Blog

Bitter Waitress Site

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Originally posted by EFA:
15% is mediocre. Think about minimum wage in your province and tip appropriately.

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

Actually the staff at Tim Hortons work harder than any waiter I have ever seen and I can't tip them.

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Originally posted by EFA:
That's the purpose of the tip pool -- to pool tips between servers and kitchen staff.

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Both hate the "tip pool" concept.

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Originally posted by James:
I have two children, both in their early 20's, both of whom have worked "real jobs" only in hospitality though both and especially one are educated for much better.

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This is true for about 90% of the servers that I know. As for the tip pool, it is a little unfair to stellar employees because (obviously) the tips are averaged but it's still better than the alternative (servers take all).

Thread drift ... one of my best friends was a server for years and years at a once funky (but now twee) pub. She stayed there because they allowed her 4 months off every year which she used to travel around the world. One day, a guest asked why she didn't go to school. My friend replied that she had been to school, took this as a summer job, and stayed on because it allowed her so much freedom to travel.

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Originally posted by EFA:
this. And this [waves her hand dismissively in my friend's general direction], this is our worst nightmare."

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i find it hard to believe how stupid, shallow, arrogant and downright ignorant some people can be. worst nightmare, indeed. there's nothing worse than working in a bar. so much worse than the homeless kid i saw today with the sign "kick a punk for a buck".

[ 25 July 2005: Message edited by: ephemeral ]

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Best you don't institute full-out socialism in their lifetime then.

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H'mmm, interesting perspective you add to this, Magoo. "Back of house" son hates the idea that employers pay wages of less than hee is worth based on subsidization by "tip pool share" that he didn't earn, and are dependant on the proficiency of people over whom he has no control, and realy very little contact.

"Front of house" daughter has 'charm', 'people skills', is multi-lingual and 'sexy' and most important, diligent. She resents when co-workers who are lazy, unskilled, or impolite share in the tips that she earns.

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Originally posted by ephemeral:
i find it hard to believe how stupid, shallow, arrogant and downright ignorant some people can be. worst nightmare, indeed. there's nothing worse than working in a bar. so much worse than the homeless kid i saw today with the sign "kick a punk for a buck".

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She resents when co-workers who are lazy, unskilled, or impolite share in the tips that she earns.

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Who could blame her?

Remember "group work" back in school? Excellent for lazy procrastinators or the stupid. Nothing but a drain for a committed student.

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Originally posted by ephemeral:
btw, i must've seemed awfully rude to one customer i had several months ago. it was a family - mum, dad and daughter. none of them liked coloured people. and they HATED even looking in my direction, let alone touch me. so, everytime they came into the office, i went out of my way to greet them and always made sure i gave them a good, strong, firm handshake. the first two times, they rejected my hand, and i have to say it hurt even though i was trying to tell myself that their opinions didn't matter. later though, it was really quite funny as they gingerly put out a finger or two to shake hands. and i would take every opportunity to get into casual conversation with them so i could brag about all the wonderful spices we have in india and the 700 different languages, and i would complain about the comparitively blander food in canada, and then, as i showed them the door, i would put my hand on somebody's back to usher them out. i noticed that that didn't go over so well as they started to flee. thankfully, i haven't seen them after that.

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Obviously if you make very little then it would seem like a great idea. Free extra money! But for everyone else I would expect it to be a non-starter.

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Originally posted by DrConway:
First it's 10%. Now 15%. Now 20%. Good lord. Next they'll be telling us 25% with an automatic inflation adjustment.

Rude customers. In Czechoslovakia I've heard that retail staff rarely put up with guff from customers; apparently rude customers are yelled at and told to shut up, and nobody bats an eye.

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Originally posted by EFA:
In Canada I've heard that servers spit in your food if you're rude to them.

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i would put my hand on somebody's back to usher them out.

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In Canada I've heard that servers spit in your food if you're rude to them.

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Ive heard of this all over the world, not jsut canada.

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Don't forget, Magoo, that absent a tip pool there is no way for the kitchen staff to partake. It's really not "free extra money."

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When did the entire staff of a restaurant lay claim to the tip I leave my server who served me?

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Originally posted by EFA:
The reason for the increase is because of our slow-rising minimum wage.

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Would that be considered privatizing the minimum wage?

Seriously, it's guilt-tripping people who can't really afford to subsidize the people the cheap bastards in the provincial governments are screwing.

It's also a sneaky way of exposing people on the margin of the labor market to the capriciousness of which restaurant they work for. If they're lucky they work in a posh restaurant where the fatcats can tack on the full 20% and add extra and not miss the cash. But suppose you work in some bumfuck restaurant in East Vancouver. You think people in East Van can afford to tack on 20% to a $10 meal? Not bloody likely!

[ 25 July 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
When did the entire staff of a restaurant lay claim to the tip I leave my server who served me?

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Originally posted by DrConway:
It's also a sneaky way of exposing people on the margin of the labor market to the capriciousness of which restaurant they work for.

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And what sense does it make to pool the efforts of all the wait staff? Some may be energetic and friendly, others listless and chappy. Why should both get the same gift for "a job well done", if only one has truly done a good job?

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Tip pools are simply a way to appease the grousing busboys,

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Not at all. It's a way to share the benefits of good service among all the people who made it happen.

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And what sense does it make to pool the efforts of all the wait staff? Some may be energetic and friendly, others listless and chappy. Why should both get the same gift for "a job well done", if only one has truly done a good job?

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What sense does it make to stick a server with the tip that any particular guest deigned to pay? Some guests are generous and fun, others nasty and cheap. Why should the latter group be allowed to spoil a server's night, if the server has done excellent work serving all his/her customers?

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And can you name any other common businesses where this kind of pooling takes place?

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Can you name any other common business that gets away with paying minimum wage to employees that may have 10 or 15 years of experience?

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They, on the other hand, would probably love to get some extra money without having to do anything special for it.

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Originally posted by Boom Boom:
How difficult would it be to _organise_ and demand in unity a decent wage and one well above minimum wage and to enshrine this in law?

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The restaurant sector is low-wage, low-productivity, low-profit. Owning a restaurant isn't necessarily a licence to print money because once you comply with the health ordinances you're in competition with god knows how many others are out there.

Plus, uniquely, restaurants are often an expression of the owner's thoughts and desires as to how to set one up. Employees have little or no say in their jobs, et cetera and ad infinitum. So a great deal depends on the owner's willingness to try and buck the grinding trend towards razoring every cost (and labor is a cost, okay?) down to the bare minimum possible.

Restaurant workers have been unionized before, successfully, but the owner can always close down out of spite and reopen under a new name after bankrupting the business to escape Dept of Labor or Ministry of Labour regulations.

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Originally posted by DrConway:
What nobler instincts?

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There are ethical restaurant owners who have career servers

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Few and far between. On my other board they talked about a restaurant that paid a living wage and did not allow tips at all, in BC.

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I wouldn't take free money and I doubt they would either.

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Then you dont know enough people in the real worl that you talk about.

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
Few and far between.

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Originally posted by Bacchus:

Then you dont know enough people in the real worl that you talk about.

They would all take 'free' money or they wouldnt be suckered into voting for tax cut political parties for example

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
if there's tons = a tiny minority

then yes I agree

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
That for me, would still be a tiny minority and Im betting a heck of a lot of that 25% dnt bother to vote either

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
Because most dont, according to voter records. Im not accounting for just 'your' group though i dont its as high as that.

30-40% of the population votes so the same would go for your '25%'

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Posted by EFA:
There are ethical restaurant owners who have career servers and treat them well.

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[ 25 July 2005: Message edited by: abnormal ]

(Was that rude enough? Gee, I should leave this open for a few posts so I can get some rude responses. Or not.)

Y'all come back now, y'hear?

[ 25 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]