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The Family Research Council blasted the card as a "grotesque mangling" of the story of Jesus' birth and called on Planned Parenthood to withdraw it.

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"To celebrate abortion at the season when Christians worldwide remember the birth of the Savior is just plain sick," read a statement from the group.

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Such small-minded views never cease to amaze me. What world are these fuckers living in?

I wonder if I would send the card personally, though. I could definitely dole it out to a few friends, but would I send it to my entire list? It's such a volatile issue, and like I say, people constantly surprise me. I bet half of my extended family would never talk to me again.

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"The group twists a well-known Scripture in which God offers peace on earth -- not abortion -- through the birth of his son, Jesus Christ," said a statement by Wendy Wright, senior policy director at Concerned Women for America. "Planned Parenthood officials are too hardened by their mission of profiting from abortion to see that Christmas itself flies in the face of all they stand for."

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Mission of profiting from abortion? Ungh? I don't get it.

If these people really gave a shit about stopping abortion, they'd be out distributing condoms and lobbying insurance companies to pay for birth control pills. This isn't about the babies. It's about the women who won't keep their darn knees together, shock, horror and shame.

Edited to add: It occurs to me that a woman's keeping her knees together will not necessarily, uh, prevent sin. Uh, it's a figure of speech, ok?

This is what comes of posting at 3:30 in the morning.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Kindred ]

In fact, Mary CHOSE to have Jesus - when she was told by the angel that God had selected her, she gave her consent.

Societies change over time. Fifty years ago in Canada Christianity was the only religion that was ever mentioned during the solistice period. So what?? Does that mean that we who are not christian can't say peace on earth? I guess I can't say love your neighbour either?

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Such small-minded views never cease to amaze me. What world are these fuckers living in?

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A very selfish, non-inclusive, judgemental, intolerant world, I'd say -- in fact, the same world I fall into when I spend too much time on what *they* say or do. Someone recently made a comment on one of the threads to the effect that true tolerance includes tolerating the intolerant. That's hard for me to do often, and it seems to become more necessary if I want to maintain some sense of even-mindedness.

There are a lot of sick people out there.

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Clearly the cards are meant to take advantage of the Christmas holiday thus what can they be but insensitive?

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So the whacko christians would have preferred they use Peace on Earth?

To repeat Christians don't own the solstice season holiday. It predates Christianity and most if not all religions and cultures have traditions centred on the seasons. So what if Christians also celebrate at the same time. It is insensitive to take an almost universal seasonal celebration and appropriate it as only Christian. How arrogant!!!

I prefer "Seasons Greetings" when referring to this time of year it is all inclusive and for some reason doesn't piss off the control freak christians.

Happy Solstice to everyone!!! May the goddess smile on you as the days get longer here in the northern hemisphere.

Oh yeah just so you don't go all anti-immigrant on me as well as religiously intolerant. My ancestors have been in North America prior to the formation of either Canada or the United States.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: kropotkin1951 ]

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But many Christians (who are the ones most likely celebrating Christmas) are very much against abortion.

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And many Christians aren't. Or accept that other people are allowed to have opinions and do things they personally wouldn't. And find freaking out about holiday cards a little (lot) below them. And since the government made December 25 a stat holiday, it's pretty much open season for anyone they want to celebrate the day as they please, Christian or not.

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Clearly the cards are meant to take advantage of the Christmas holiday thus what can they be but insensitive?

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What, is Planned Parenthood getting the Christmas holiday drunk and trying to look up its skirt or pose in its tighty whities*? What do you mean "taking advantage of"??? If you don't like the cards, don't buy 'em! I bet a whole lotta Catholics for a free choice love 'em! I bet they think its great that some narrow minded people don't get to define holiday emotions and acceptable outpourings of feeling for everyone else - that its very sensitive to bring together things they believe in strongly!

I think choice on earth is great - especially in the type of cards people send! Good point, PLanned parenthood!

And I won't touch the utter ridiculousness of assuming that Christianity (as defined by a select few) have dibs on December festivity, since others have done a great job covering that.

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Guys. Planned Parenthood was EXCEPTIONALLY inconsiderate with this card.

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Yeah. Inconsiderate to the people who hate them and want to shut them down. Darn those mean Planned Parenthood people.

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But many Christians (who are the ones most likely celebrating Christmas) are very much against abortion.

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Idunno. Many people who celebrate Christmas (myself included) are Christian only nominally or by heritage. Christmas just isn't as religious as it used to be.

And even among bona fide Christians, there are many, many people who support Planned Parenthood and its objectives.

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particularly when they then claim the choice the are referring to is "Diversity". Bullshit...particularly when "Choice" is the term used in the current abortion debate.

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"Choice" means not only the choice to have or not have an abortion, but the choice to have sex when one wants it and with whom one wants it. "Choice" covers all choices we should make about our own bodies, not have made for us.

That inevitably leads us to diversity.

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Only a Christian with no ecumenical background would claim peace on earth is a exclusive christian concept. It is a central core of pretty much every religion on the planet.

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Sigh. You're building up straw men. I specifically SAID that while it is not an exclusively Christian CONCEPT, "Peace on earth" has been associated with Christmas because it is a direct quotation of Christian scripture in the Christmas story. Maybe if you got rid of the great big chip on your shoulder you could see what I actually WROTE.

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I realize that the Bible isn't the first or only place where "Peace on Earth" is written, but let's face it, it is one of the most distinctive phrases from the Christmas story of scripture, and it is sung in many Christmas carols, etc.

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Only a Christian with no ecumenical background would claim peace on earth is a exclusive christian concept.

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"I am sick and tired of people thinking there is only one religious voice--the religious right," said Rev. Carlton W. Veazey last week at a conference of religious and feminist leaders in Washington. "People need to know that choice is there, constitutionally and theologically." Rev. Veazey is a minister of the National Baptist Convention, U.S.A.

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full article, and comprehensive list of pro-choice religious groups here

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Sorry, but Planned Parenthood is taking advantage of the season.

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As does every other organisation in North America, pretty much, religious or not.

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"Diversity" does not derive from the freedom to have abortions.

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No, diversity leads to the freedom to have abortions. We don't all subscribe to the Catholic or fundie views, Lib.

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i am failing to understand how Sexual relations also add to diversity. Thats about the stupidest thing i have ever seen posted, Smith.

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I take it, then, that you don't look at your own posts.

Let me put it in smaller words. In the view of the fundamentalists, we should all get married to someone of the opposite sex, preferably when young, and then lose our virginity, and continue to have sex with our husbands/wives when we want to have children and never at any other time. Husband, wife, a couple of kids: That is what every household, every family would look like if the fundies were in charge. That is the opposite of diversity.

In a society embracing diversity, we have the right to be gay, to be bisexual, to fall in love with whomever we want, whenever we want; to have sex or not have sex, to get pregnant or not get pregnant - and to be safe while we do it.

THAT is diversity. Diversity is not just the fact of differences, but the RIGHT to be different.

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look guys, i think the card is in very poor taste. They have a right to put it out for public consumption, but i wont buy it and i will openly rail against it.

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That's your choice, of course. But I disagree.

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I think too many people are confusing Christianity with being Catholic or something, or some kind of fanatic religious right, both of which are anti-abortion.

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My guess is that the people speaking up against this card are hard-line evangelical Protestant, which I tend to refer to as "fundie." I think Catholics tend to be more dignified (and they are also less common and have less clout in the US than here). There are a lot of different categories of "fundies," but I don't think they really care much about the differences. They can band together because they're all reactionary as fuck.

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Many Christians arent Catholic, they support free choice and ordane gay clergy and women too.

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Unfortunately, America doesn't seem to have anything like the United Church here, a large moderate organisation that could speak up for moderate Christians in general. The moderates are split up into lots of tiny groups, and the fundies (who make up a bit less than half of churchgoers in the States, last I checked) get to be "the voice of Christianity." It's sad.

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Whether you agree with Free Choice or not, to get bent out of shape over a xmas card is stupid. What I find extremely offensive is the Pro Life literature and posters and hand outs. And they give that shit to kids.

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I know. These are people who hand out Chick tracts while complaining that a "Choice on Earth" card is the height of insensitivity and bad taste.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

If you don't want to buy the card, don't buy it. But don't get all twisted up in knots about bad taste and insensitivity. Call yourself a libertarian.

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yes, the modern left has many ideas that would be beneficial to all.

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And the modern right is soooooo tolerant and fair.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

I abhor bigotry... and i also partake in it,but you know what, you are guilty of it as well....so pluck that plank from your eye big guy

What is wrong with being anti-abortion?
its a perfectly reasonable stance regardless of religious affiliation. I take the stand on ethical grounds. I also think it should remain legal. Or perhaps you missed that the first time around. I am pretty far from beinga Fundamentialist....i have premarital sex..and lots of it, i dont go to church, i dont read the Bible every day, i dotn have a fish or WWJD bumpersticker, i dont attend flagpole prayers....i detest Pat Robertson and his ilk. i dont support Fundamentalism ( is the Pope a Fundamentalist?) but i do support my ethical stance and i will support my religion ( which says next to nothing about abortion in its holy scriptures).

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What is wrong with being anti-abortion?
its a perfectly reasonable stance regardless of religious affiliation.

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So is being pro-choice. That's what you appear to miss. If the pro-lifers can distribute their literature, we can distribute ours. Suck it up.

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I take the stand on ethical grounds.

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look guys, i think the card is in very poor taste. They have a right to put it out for public consumption, but i wont buy it and i will openly rail against it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's your choice, of course. But I disagree.

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In the view of the fundamentalists, we should all get married to someone of the opposite sex, preferably when young, and then lose our virginity, and continue to have sex with our husbands/wives when we want to have children and never at any other time.

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You're wrong. You lose credibility when you parody the position of your opponent, Smith.

First of all, fundamentalists don't believe we should all get married. There is at least one strong scriptural support for not getting married, and it is in one of Paul's letters. Fundamentalists often quote it as a way to comfort those who are single and perhaps lonely. He says something about how marriage is desireable for those who wish to have sex throughout their lives, but being single is also a blessed state for those who can handle it.

Secondly, most fundamentalists I've met (and I've met a lot - hell, I'm a Baptist!) do not encourage their children to marry young. Many of them encourage their kids to wait until they are educated, or at least wait until they're in post-secondary before they get married. Lots of fundamentalists wait until they're in their 30's and even middle age before they get married. Not all fundamentalists have children once they're married.

As for fundamentalists believing that married couples should only have sex when they're trying to have babies, that is absolutely ridiculous. You find me a mainstream fundamentalist preacher who says that married couples should stop having sex after they're through having babies. All modern fundamentalists will encourage their married couples to have healthy sex lives throughout their whole marriage, in accordance with what the couple is comfortable with.

And now for Libertarian - it pains me to agree with him on something. You'll understand my pain, Libertarian.

I didn't see Libertarian claim that you weren't for abortion on ethical grounds, Smith. You claimed that he wasn't a very good libertarian for thinking that the card was in poor taste. What, to be a libertarian, you have to turn your mind off and have no more opinions? Of course not. He has every right to his opinion, and as a Libertarian he believes that he has the right to shout his opinion from the rooftops, as do you. Anyhow, the reason he made a point of saying that he was against abortion on ethical grounds was not to imply that you weren't on ethical grounds. It was in contrast to his belief that WHILE he is against abortion on ethical grounds, he still believes it should be legal because it is up to other people.

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You find me a mainstream fundamentalist preacher who says that married couples should stop having sex after they're through having babies.

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Ah, but I don't think the people going on CNN to trash this card are mainstream. I think they're loony right-wingers. I could be wrong about that.

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I didn't see Libertarian claim that you weren't for abortion on ethical grounds, Smith. You claimed that he wasn't a very good libertarian for thinking that the card was in poor taste.

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No, I claimed he was a poor Libertarian for saying that Planned Parenthood shouldn't put the card out. He's perfectly entitled to dislike it, and I acknowledged that. However, the vehemence of his attack on it suggested to me that he wanted it banned.

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Anyhow, the reason he made a point of saying that he was against abortion on ethical grounds was not to imply that you weren't on ethical grounds. It was in contrast to his belief that WHILE he is against abortion on ethical grounds, he still believes it should be legal because it is up to other people.

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I didn't doubt that. However, his trashing of Planned Parenthood's message ("EXCEPTIONALLY inconsiderate...bullshit") suggested to me that he had NO understanding of the other side, and that he believed ethics MUST dictate a pro-life stance. I object to that.

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He just said that he thought they were in very bad taste, and that he will express those views.

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The thread's not really about that, is it, though? I don't think they're in the absolute finest of taste myself, but I think it's stupid that people should be getting time on CNN to trash them.

You're either a libertarian or you're not. TheLib has in other places indicated that he thinks it's all good, commercially speaking, as long as we don't take others' earnings from them (i.e. as long as we keep taxes low or nonexistent). He is, thus, not a real libertarian, but a commercial libertarian. For him to be getting shirty about a product on the market strikes me as hypocritical.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

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Ah, but I don't think the people going on CNN to trash this card are mainstream. I think they're loony right-wingers. I could be wrong about that.

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I didn't say mainstream by itself. I said mainstream fundamentalist. People like Pat Robertson, etc. The ones who get airtime. I've never heard any of them say that married couples should not have sex unless they're specifically trying to have a baby. I've never heard them say that sex should stop after child-bearing years are over.

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No, I claimed he was a poor Libertarian for saying that Planned Parenthood shouldn't put the card out.

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Actually, what you said is this:

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If you don't want to buy the card, don't buy it. But don't get all twisted up in knots about bad taste and insensitivity. Call yourself a libertarian.

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To me, that's calling him a poor libertarian for getting upset about the bad taste and insensitivity. But even if you DID mean that he was a poor Libertarian for suggesting they shouldn't put the card out, then you're misrepresenting his views - because he specifically said a couple of times that they have the right to do it if they want - just as he has the right to tell them he thinks they're being insensitive.

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He's perfectly entitled to dislike it, and I acknowledged that. However, the vehemence of his attack on it suggested to me that he wanted it banned.

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I don't see how it could have, when he specifically wrote "look guys, i think the card is in very poor taste. They have a right to put it out for public consumption, but i wont buy it and i will openly rail against it" several posts before yours accusing him of being a poor libertarian.

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I didn't doubt that. However, his trashing of Planned Parenthood's message ("EXCEPTIONALLY inconsiderate...bullshit") suggested to me that he had NO understanding of the other side, and that he believed ethics MUST dictate a pro-life stance. I object to that.

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Again, I don't see how he suggested that. Just because he believes they were exceptionally inconsiderate in their method of getting their point across doesn't mean he has no understanding of the other side. And judging from your recent parody of fundamentalists, it would be easy to assume that you have absolutely NO understanding of the other side of the debate either. Do you also object to your own one-sidedness?

He didn't say ethics in general dictate a pro-life stance. He said HIS ethics do, and he went out of his way to say that it should be legal for other people because his own ethics and the legality for everyone else should be separate.

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The thread's not really about that, is it, though? I don't think they're in the absolute finest of taste myself, but I think it's stupid that people should be getting time on CNN to trash them.

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Actually, the thread is exactly about that. The whole point of the piece is whether or not it was insensitive for Planned Parenthood to appropriate a phrase associated with religious Christmas to promote their business. Personally, I think it's great. Libertarian does not.

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You're either a libertarian or you're not. TheLib has in other places indicated that he thinks it's all good, commercially speaking, as long as we don't take others' earnings from them (i.e. as long as we keep taxes low or nonexistent). He is, thus, not a real libertarian, but a commercial libertarian. For him to be getting shirty about a product on the market strikes me as hypocritical.

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I don't see how you can come to that conclusion when he very clearly states that his ideas on social issues are his own ethical standpoints, but that they should not have an effect on everyone else legally. I don't see how you can say he's demonstrating he's not a libertarian. Again, does being a libertarian mean that you cannot express your own views, or have strong views on controversial issues?

He is not being hypocritical at all. He is stating that he does not like a certain product on the market and he won't be buying it, but that the person who makes it has every right to make it, just as he has every right to "rail against it". What isn't Libertarian about that?

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]

As for the mainstream fundamentalist organisations, all right - I was taking my case from the most exaggerated cases, people like Rusty Yates and hard-core Jehovah's Witnesses, which I shouldn't do. However, people who take an absolute anti-birth-control stance, as the Catholic Church (officially) does and as some (not all) fundamentalists do, ARE basically saying that sex should only be for procreation - since having sex WITHOUT allowing the possibility of procreation is, in their eyes, a sin. I would expect the most vocal opposition to Planned Parenthood to come from this segment of the population, since Planned Parenthood does a lot more than help people access abortion.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

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so pluck that plank from your eye big guy

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and i have the right to protest what i see as a misuse of the Holiday....without being accused of being a Fundamentalist.

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Actually, as a libertarian, you DON'T have the right not to be called a fundamentalist. You have the right to protest, and we have the right to call you a right-wing lunatic-fringe nutcase fundamentalist if we have TRUE liberty.

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He says something about how marriage is desireable for those who wish to have sex throughout their lives, but being single is also a blessed state for those who can handle it.

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market forces dont matter a hill f beans when it comes to abort or not ot abort questions

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Planned Parenthoods appropriation of the season for political purposes tasteless and insensitive

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"Peace on Earth" is not the copyrighted phrase or property of anyone, it is a sentiment expressed by many and nothing more than that.

Pagan, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Wicca, Protestant, Catholic, Druid, Atheists, whatever they ALL pray for Peace on Earth -- It is recognized as a traditional prayer or sentiment among Christians but that doesnt make it exclusive to them.

In the case of "Choice on Earth", how you interpret it is up to the individual .

Pro Lifers choose to use it to push their own agenda and try and make Pro Choice look bad - IMO they are the ones abusing the intent of this message. As well as the original "Peace on Earth" message, seeing as none of them really intend to follow either.

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Selfishly, I'd like to be allowed to maintain the delusion of peace on earth for at least a brief hiccup of time every December.

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kindred. Should people be having sex prior to marriage? particularly in the US where illegitimacy, divorce, and VDs are a HUGE problem? Dont tell me that people people should be responsible. They arent. Normally i can do nothing about people's Irresponsibility. But when it effects a child/fetus/whatever is PC (born or unborn) i have every justification to rant and rave.
People here are totally irresponsible because they are taught that they do not have to face up to the consequences of their actions ( Clinton, Bush, divorced mommies and daddies, Catholic Clergy etc). i know that those who elect for abortion often time undergo mental and emotional strain both before and after the procedure and, thus, suffer consequences.
But i question the effectiveness of those consequences. people need to think before they have penile-vaginal intercourse...there are other orifices and other stimulating bodyparts that are just as good, if better, at supplying the same level of satisfaction.

Responsibility needs to begin with the first choice, not the last choice, in all things.

I know am gonna get reemed.

Edited for idiot typing mistakes

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: The Libertarian ]

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That to me suggests that he is saying single people should NOT a sex life. Especially the "if you can handle it" bit. So it is in essence referring to sex being only okay when you are married.

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Yeah, so? That's what they believe. Read carefully - I was refuting Smith's claim that fundamentalists tell married people they can only have sex when they are trying to have children, and after having children they have to stop.

The idea was that any sex was sin, but it was (just barely!) okay if it happened within marriage. But it was much better to never, ever have sex. The only good purpose of sex was to bring forth more virgins for the church. Remember, they expected the end times to come quickly, and bringing children forth was kind of a waste of time.

Marriage was kind of suspicious - okay, but not truly a "religious" ceremony, since it was sort of a failing. That was why it remained a secular ceremony until well into the Middle Ages.

I have to use this knowledge somewhere. You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Alix ]

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Should people be having sex prior to marriage? particularly in the US where illegitimacy, divorce, and VDs are a HUGE problem? Dont tell me that people people should be responsible. They arent....

People need to think before they have penile-vaginal intercourse...there are other orifices and other stimulating bodyparts that are just as good, if better, at supplying the same level of satisfaction....

I know am gonna get reemed.

---

I once learned that what one expects of people is what you see in people. I also learned that what one sees in others is sometimes a reflection of what one sees inside.

So, playing with those other orifices isn't sex? I understand the Democrats are looking for their next Presidential candidate. Maybe you could apply.

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Should people be having sex prior to marriage? particularly in the US where illegitimacy, divorce, and VDs are a HUGE problem? Dont tell me that people people should be responsible. They arent.

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It isn't whether people should be having sex, Libertarian. They are having sex. They always have had sex.

VD and illegitimacy are no longer the "problems" that they once were when many died of syphilus and other STDs, and when illegitimate children were relegated to the streets to care for themselves with no family support. As for divorce, I simply can't see how it has anything to do with pre-marital sex.

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Normally i can do nothing about people's Irresponsibility. But when it effects a child/fetus/whatever is PC (born or unborn) i have every justification to rant and rave.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Planned Parenthoods appropriation of the season for political purposes tasteless and insensitive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right and the Pro Life feaks arent out in full force at this time of the year. Shoving offensive literature at you, handing kids graphic pictures of an aborted fetus --

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I haven't seen any pro-life "freaks" for years. In fact, when I was a volunteer for the OCAC, working as an escort for women entering the clinic through the lines of pro-life protesters, I didn't notice much more activity around Christmas time than at other times. As I recall, it was warm out when they bombed the Morgenaler clinic on Harbord Street.

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Peace on Earth means peace among ALL people, on ALL fronts, in ALL circumstances - that includes laying off the Pro Life terrorist tactics -

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[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

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There is a huge difference between "parenting skills" in relation to a parent's treatment of the human being they made and killing the human being when it is unwanted.

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I'm not interested in getting into the abortion debate, Trinnity. Libertarian was talking about:

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a child/fetus/whatever is PC (born or unborn)

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kindred. Should people be having sex prior to marriage? particularly in the US where illegitimacy, divorce, and VDs are a HUGE problem?

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A couple of things:

1) I personally don't believe that being married matters a hill of beans in whether it's okay to have sex or not. Personally, I don't want to have children until I'm married - but I think the notion of "illegitimacy" is stupid and outdated. People who have children before they can afford them, financially or emotionally, are the problem - or rather, they are the ones who suffer, and whose children suffer. There are a host of reasons for that, of course, but being unmarried is not, in and of itself, one of those reasons.

2) I fail to see how divorce and premarital sex are related.

3) In countries where sex ed - comprehensive, honest sex ed - is taught in schools, kids lose their virginity later, abortions happen much less frequently, and I would imagine VDs are much less common too. You cannot stop people from having sex, but you can damn well stop them from being ignorant about it. That is what organisations like Planned Parenthood are out to do.

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People here are totally irresponsible because they are taught that they do not have to face up to the consequences of their actions ( Clinton, Bush, divorced mommies and daddies, Catholic Clergy etc).

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That's bullshit. Just total bullshit. Sorry. Divorced parents have NOTHING to do with the Catholic clergy. Nothing. And I thought you liked Bush. As for Clinton, you think his actions didn't have consequences?

Like many on the right, you think in terms of punishment, not prevention. You know what? Punishment doesn't work. If punishment worked, states with the death penalty would have lower rates of crime than states that didn't have it, and states with lower welfare payments would have lower numbers of people on welfare.

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But i question the effectiveness of those consequences. people need to think before they have penile-vaginal intercourse...

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That's what Planned Parenthood encourages them to do. The Abstinence Front, on the other hand, makes sure that if they do end up having sex, they will be totally unprepared.

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Yeah, so? That's what they believe. Read carefully - I was refuting Smith's claim that fundamentalists tell married people they can only have sex when they are trying to have children, and after having children they have to stop.

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That isn't quite what I meant. I meant that fundamentalists (and perhaps not all fundamentalists, I am fuzzy on this) tell married people they should not have sex when they don't want children, i.e. they can't use birth control. That, to me, is basically the same as "sex for procreation only," since the results are pretty much the same. There is only one acceptable way to have sex.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Smith ]

To say I think people should have a choice and it should be legal but I am going to rant against it suggests to me that you just may suffer from some kind of disassociative or multiple personalty disorder -- The only other conclusion is you just like to stir up shit and make noise.

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Unplug the TV, radio, and computer. Stop reading the paper. Don't open the mail. Make a lovely cup of tea. Works for me when I need to be out of things for a while.

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I see the new Adbusters issue is out, but NO! I'm joining you in the sand.

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To say I think people should have a choice and it should be legal but I am going to rant against it suggests to me that you just may suffer from some kind of disassociative or multiple personalty disorder -- The only other conclusion is you just like to stir up shit and make noise.

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Would you call PETA protesters handing out pamplets of animals being experimented on terrorists?

I've seen lots of prolife protests, none of them have involved screaming, much less people swarming and screaming at teenagers.

I have friends who are pro-life evangelical Christians. They are the farthest thing from the hysterical fetus-throwers who terrorize women and are, in fact, horrified by those tactics you rightly call terrorist.

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People here are totally irresponsible because they are taught that they do not have to face up to the consequences of their actions ( Clinton, Bush, divorced mommies and daddies, Catholic Clergy etc).

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Much like lumping everyone who believes in choice into one big group as well (?) Or being totally against ALL abortion?

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Like this Planned Parenthood card. If we leave off the extremeist views from the ranters and reactionaries, there's quite a mix of opinion. I still maintain that it's kind of inappropriate and insensitive. Why not a message of safe and responsible sex?

Edited: for the usual typos

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]

quote:

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To say I think people should have a choice and it should be legal but I am going to rant against it suggests to me that you just may suffer from some kind of disassociative or multiple personalty disorder -- The only other conclusion is you just like to stir up shit and make noise.

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Oh please. Introducing Kindred the armchair psychologist. I can't believe you agree with this, Smith. Come on, you two, you honestly can't understand how someone can be personally against abortion but not willing to make it illegal and thus take the choice away from everyone else?

Maybe Libertarian doesn't feel like this is something that should be legislated because it falls into the category of morality rather than legality.

You know, if I hear about a guy being a total asshole by breaking up with his girlfriend in a nasty way that hurts her feelings more than necessary, and I rant about what an idiot I think he is for doing so, that doesn't mean I want it to be against the law for men to break up with their girlfriends in a way that excessively hurts their feelings.

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People here are totally irresponsible because they are taught that they do not have to face up to the consequences of their actions ( Clinton, Bush, divorced mommies and daddies, Catholic Clergy etc).

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So to me, that doesn't mean he thinks there should be consequences. That means there ARE consequences that a lot of people don't face up to. I would assume that those consequences are the ones that are well-documented - emotional problems with children of divorced parents, hard economic realities of raising children alone, etc.

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BTW it is an assumption on your behalf that I am an amateur psychologist, you dont know what degrees I hold

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It isnt the divorce or the choice that one makes that creates the harm to the child, it is how you handle the consequences of that choice.

If parents are able to make a good effort to remain civil with each other, to put the welfare and wellbeing of the child ahead of personal agendas and grievances then divorce is just a piece of paper and has no power to harm the family. Kids will adjust to daddy living in his own house, as long as they can phone and see him whenever they want to.

Its when divorce becomes an open battle, with the child caught in the middle, used as a bargaining tool, used as punishment and so on that it harms the child.

It is essential that both parents remain front and center and united in the childs life.

The same would pertain to economic factors, if both can accept responsibility for raising the children then the potential harm is minimized. And I DO know couples who have managed this. Both parts - financially and maintaining the family unit.

My exe had full access to my kids, we still get together, he with his new wife, me and my new hubby, my kids, his new wifes kid, for all special occassions - we have "family dinners" and get togethers, we talk regularly on the phone, make decisions about the kids together.

I dont LIKE him,(he never paid a cent in CS) but for the sake of my kids I have always kept the lines of communication wide open, same with access to them, bit my tongue and maintained that family unity for them. Christmas we will ALL get together for dinner because it makes life good for the kids.

i am also anti-divorce once you have kids (except in cases of Child/spousal Endangerment/abuse)but i would never wish for it to be illegal. I would prefer for it to be councelled (sp?) against.

personally don't believe that being married matters a hill of beans in whether it's okay to have sex or not. Personally, I don't want to have children until I'm married - but I think the notion of "illegitimacy" is stupid and outdated. People who have children before they can afford them, financially or emotionally, are the problem - or rather, they are the ones who suffer, and whose children suffer. There are a host of reasons for that, of course, but being unmarried is not, in and of itself, one of those reasons.

marriage does quite a bit to curb the transmission of sexual diseases, both to your partner and to any progeny that may be a product of such union. granted its not surefire.
marriage also provides a stable environment for a child wherein income and partners remain reliable or static. I sound like Dr Laura..whom i am sure you all hate with as much Vitriolic passion as you can muster
I know its not vogue to support the institutionof marriage but i see it as being imminently practical.

i come froma divorced family. it was a rather amiable divorce and i turned out well, but life without one of your parents sucks ass. you have self esteenm issues, gender role model problems etc.

I never meant to imply that divorce and the Catholic clergy were connected, i was merely listing public and private circumstances we are exposed to wherein people are not held accountable for their actions.

And yes, i do prefer punishment for adults. Adults tend to be very set in their ways. if they couldnt learn to act like a civilized member of society before the age of majority i doubt anyone will be able to gently coax such a malefactor back into civil society.
oh and the death penalty does work....people flee the US for Canada and France every year to escape the death penalty. And it is the only 100% effective way to prevent the criminal from recommitting. lets see the sparks fly!

and learn something about Schizophrenia. Having conlicting ideas or double standards or saying "one thing is bad but should remain legal" are not signs of schizophrenia. sheesh. You have proven the 90% rule (courtesy of my favourite Canuck, Marline Rostom!!) {shameless plug for my fiancee}
shall i go get the DSM IV?

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: The Libertarian ]

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: The Libertarian ]

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calling the Pro-life people "Anti-choice" is like calling Pro-choice organizations "anti-Life". Its name calling

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I've already explained how I disagree with this argument, so I won't bother to repeat myself here (if you care, its a little over half way down the page).

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i come froma divorced family...but lif without one of your parents sucks ass. you have...gender role model problems etc.

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I'm not even going to ask what you mean here by gender role problems, Lib, cause I have a feeling I don't want to know! As a daughter of divorced parents (both of them several times!), I agree it can suck, but I think I'm a bit better adjusted than many of my friends whose parents stayed together yet still didn't have two parents (which in many ways I relate to that whole gender model issue). I lived with a strong, wonderful, loving mom, am still fairly estranged from my dad (he's just not real good at the whole accepting people as they are thing, so I don't think living with him would have reduced the tension - very possibly the opposite), and for male role models, my ideal has always been my maternal grandpa - he wasn't there daily, but has always made a huge impact.

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and learn something about Schizophrenia. Having conlicting ideas or double standards or saying "one thing is bad but should remain legal" are not signs of schizophrenia

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Explains where some of your anger comes from, which leads me back to my post on choices and how we handle them. As children and as adults. Children dont have a lot of choices at times. Adults make the choices and they should also make it a choice to handle the repurcussions in the best way possible.

About 85% of the kids I have counseled in the past came from 2 parent families. Seeing and hearing mommy and daddy fighting, daddy whipping a beer bottle across the dining room table and bouncing if off mommys head wasnt condusive to good mental health or good behavior with these kids. Kids from a civil divorce do way better.

But it IS all about choices. And we should all have the freedom to make those choices.

None of the choices that impact seriously upon your life or emotional health are ever made lightly, no one would choose abortion over not getting pregnant in the first place, no one gets married intending to get divorced. But for anyone to profess they have all the answers and theirs is the one right way is simplistic and egocentric.

I dont disagree that some people find this xmas card offensive, I disagree with the hypocricy (sp?) of the Pro Lifers being so out spoken about the offense of it. When their own publications and printed material is IMO a lot more offensive.

And in a round about way I also understand why this message was chosen, as pointed out before Christ WAS a chosen child. I dont agree that Peace on Earth can be considered to be Christian domain and exclusive right of use.

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Smith, calling the Pro-life people "Anti-choice" is like calling Pro-choice organizations "anti-Life".

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Disagree. They are anti-choice.

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i am also anti-divorce once you have kids (except in cases of Child/spousal Endangerment/abuse)but i would never wish for it to be illegal. I would prefer for it to be councelled (sp?) against.

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Which it is.

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I know its not vogue to support the institutionof marriage but i see it as being imminently practical.

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Yes, but "illegitimacy" is a stupid thing to complain about. In and of itself, it's meaningless.

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And yes, i do prefer punishment for adults. Adults tend to be very set in their ways. if they couldnt learn to act like a civilized member of society before the age of majority i doubt anyone will be able to gently coax such a malefactor back into civil society.

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And punishment fixes that...how?

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oh and the death penalty does work....people flee the US for Canada and France every year to escape the death penalty. And it is the only 100% effective way to prevent the criminal from recommitting.

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Anyway, the overwhelming majority of people with strong opinions on the topic are "pro-life" and "anti-abortion". Few people, even the staunchest supporters of choice, are "pro-abortion" - it's recognized as an awful necessity for some women who find themselves unexpectedly pregnant, and generally not something to be celebrated - and certainly no one but a psychopath is "pro-death". Few women make the decision to terminate a pregnancy lightly or take any kind of pleasure in the process.

There is no definitive answer to whether life begins at conception. There is no scientific consensus on the definition of life, or of human life. My personal view: Is a zygote life? Yes. Is it human life? No, but it is potential human life, which is, to me, as precious as a human being itself. We are not merely who we are now, we are also who we will become. Potential is what drives humanity forward. But I digress (as usual :)

It is, always and ever, an issue of control. I understand the pro-choice position. I really do, and I passionately support their position on the life of the unborn (or potential) person. However, I do not support anyone who would limit the choices of others, who would impose their own moral and/or religious values on women and those who provide abortions. Making abortion illegal, well, we know what horrors illegal abortions are, how women die from the unregulated ineptitude of backalley butchers. Even where abortion is fully legal, there are access issues and funding issues.