At the same time, as I read people demanding over and over again that the divorcing couple put all their own feelings aside for the sake of the children, all their own interests, it sometimes sounds, I sometimes feel that strange disconnect that happens also when I'm listening to politicians talk about "child poverty."

In other words, parents are people too. Adults are people. It is no healthier for a parent/adult to be poor than it is for a child.

And some of the schemes that people seem determined to impose on divorcing parents strike me as potentially seriously stressful, maybe in the long run not such a good idea for the children involved either if those schemes are overly punitive to one or both parents.

Obviously, every situation is different. But I would be interested to hear people speak a little more generously of the divorcing parent as an individual, a person, with some life still in front of her/him, with desires for privacy, freedom, a new life.

I am not a parent myself. I married a divorce and have two (grown) step-children, but the stresses of that split happened long before I came on the scene, so I admit that I cannot feel them on the pulse the way that divorcing parents must.

I do know that I would have some deep problems being forced to go on maintaining some kinds of relationships, some kinds of connections. Whenever I hear people talking about "shared custody," it is so easy for me to imagine horror stories first, the real tortment that one partner is likely to be facing, oftener than not, I'd bet, by accepting to be tied indefinitely to a partner s/he would rather not know any more.

quote:

---

Originally posted by skdadl:
... accepting to be tied indefinitely to a partner s/he would rather not know any more.

Thoughts?

---

But I know for sure that it is true sometimes.

When I think of my own life and past, eg, I can think of a few people I would simply never agree to see again. Period, dot, punckt. If I had been married to them and locked into some kind of agreement with them, I would have opened a vein. Seriously.

Be that as it may, yes adults deserve to have their own lives. At some point.

But I think divorced/divorcing parents have to recognize that they chose to have children, and they are first responsible to see that process through until those children are independant. After all, that's where one would be if the marriage didn't disolve.

And part of that responsibility, as witnessed by standard clauses in every separation aggreement, (not to say bad things in front of the kids about the other parent, for example) is to at least maintain some kind of working parenting relationship with one's ex.

You owe that much to your kids, because that's the unspoken contract you made with them the first time you held them in your arms.

Can there be agreements that in fact prohibit a parent from being a parent? I guess the courts would say not. In a case where the "bread winner" has no money left over so that he or she can afford a suitable place to live in order to see his or her children on holidays or weekends, and provide non monetary parenting, I'd say yes. But the courts tend to equate money with parenting.

And I'm not sure how often this scenario actually presents itself.

Remember kinksters, saftey first!

Sorry for the flipancy.

Unless there's real fear that the other spouse is going to do physical or seriuos psychological harm to the parties involved, I think you have to find ways to tollerate and work with your ex.

God knows I have to, and none of youse is getting off the hook..... (chortle)

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

This, though, is helping me to clarify my own (obviously confused) first post further:

quote:

---

not at a different pace than what married people do.

---

Now there, Tommy -- you're talking about the continuing link with your children, and of course I was assuming that. Maybe not all people want that, but most would, and I assume that that is not a maddening burden, although I know that it can be a complication and a sadness.

But in order to stay in touch with their children, many people are forced to go on seeing, coping with, an ex, and maybe even ex-in-laws, whose very presence is a torment to them.

I remember very early how my brother wanted to circle the wagons and got about half a sentence into a diatribe againt my ex, and I stopped him and made it clear that it wasn't all her fault, and that I'd appreciate if we didn't go down that road.

And he's respected that because he's a very good brother.

My nieces, his daughters have been a somewhat larger problem. They have found ways to slight my ex, in subtle ways, which I've made clear I don't like, and find hurtfull to me.

I don't see my in laws as much as before, obviously. My mother in law, beast that she is, didn't take my side in this entirely, and stuck up for her daughter to a small degree. Actually, if I could seriously critisize her, it would be that she should have been more critical of me, and less so of my ex.

I spoke to my mother in law last week. She's going on a trip, leaving my father in law at home. He's older than her, and not in great shape. Diabetes and a bad hip, and it seems some form of senility is just starting to show itself. Anyway, she asked if she could put me down as someone to contact in the event of an emergency and I said yes.

I dunno what to say. I'm no Saint, you all know that. I suppose at one point I could have climbed up on a holier than thou horse, or made issues big and small a matter of "face" or pride, and invited animus and conflict, but........
maybe I'm too lazy to expend all the energy that takes, or maybe I have a better view of the big picture.

Forgot. About six weeks ago my ex and I drove to Pearson Int'l. to drop off my eldest for her European Oddysey. I was dreading the drive back, alone with my ex. Two hours of close confinement.

But it wasn't bad, she was fairly quiet on the way back and didn't introduce any contentious topics, or lay any mines for me to step on. I was worried about nothing.

I find in the whole divorce thing, I spend a lot of time worrying about things that never come to pass, and it helps to focus on what is, and not what could be.

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

Do you think that is the social expectation? I must think about that. But if it is, doesn't it sound to you as though the direction taken by the law is now the very opposite? That is, to assume that it will always be best if divorcing couples go on being a sort of semi-couple?

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: exiled armadillo ]

quote:

---

I've felt like a pawn most of the time becuase everyone is telling me what I'm supposed to do. the social workers (and cops) were telling me to protect the kdis at all costs. the lawyers were telling me I ahve to allow unsupervised access etc because it was in the best interests of the kids.

---

exiled, I know that this is a cliche, and in a way I am glad to know that people can survive what you have done, but it is still true: I don't know how you do it.

I've known about a tenth of the contradictory public/institutional pressures that you describe there, and they just about sunk me. I don't know how you do it.

I don't mean to intrude, but: do you ever feel really angry? I mean, really selfishly angry? A kind of "Why was I born just to go through all this stuff for everybody else?" angry?

If I were you, I sure would.

Your children are invaluable, but so are you. There is no replacement for you. Autonomy and health: you have every bit as much a claim to those things as anyone else, and the second depends a lot upon the first.

I'm remembering some other women friends as I read you, and a man or two as well. I started this thread because I was thinking of them, of how devastating their loss of autonomy was when they found themselves yoked for years to an ex and/or ex-in-laws who did not wish them well, or with whom they could not cope.

What do you say to children like that and what keeps the parents from doing something as child-centred as sitting together at a christmas concert. Save for cases of proven family violence, in most cases, both parents simply don't want to sit together or work together. When that happens, they are putting their own selfish interests ahead of their children's.

quote:

---

I don't mean to intrude, but: do you ever feel really angry? I mean, really selfishly angry? A kind of "Why was I born just to go through all this stuff for everybody else?" angry?

---

tired and depressed would be more like it.

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: exiled armadillo ]

quote:

---

What do you say to children like that ... ?

---

Well, obviously you don't want to say to very young children, "Your daddy can't be here because he was swinging his fists / an ax / packing a gun the last time, and so your mummy has a court order out against him."

Other threads have wondered about what we say to children in those circs.

At the moment, I'm more concerned about the stressed partner, who is trying to be fair but is also trying to remember that s/he is a human being too.

That being said, for the stressed partner, mom or dad, male or female, there should be at the very least, some kinds of support services available at the community level - sadly, there aren't and this is a source of great frustration for me because divorce is so damned common, it's everywhere? Why hasn't the non-profit world recognized this? Government surely hasn't.

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: sillygoil ]