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Author Topic: Can a pre-emptive protest prevent a war?
fatal ruminate
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posted 30 March 2005 07:42 PM      Profile for fatal ruminate     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With recent increase in hostility levels between China & Taiwan, I've been wondering if taking action now might prevent a war from taking place.
Perhaps a peace protest at the Chinese Embassy would convince their leaders that they have more to lose by taking offensive actions against Taiwan than they would gain?
If they were faced with a definite boycott of their exports from one of their largest trading partners, the potential economic impact might weaken the position of the hawkish elements in the Chinese government.

Anyway, I'm just throwing this idea out for discussion.

[ 30 March 2005: Message edited by: fatal ruminate ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 31 March 2005 01:17 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only war going on is a "war of words" and its very unlikely to go beyond that. There's just too much money at stake.
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Briguy
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posted 31 March 2005 08:31 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I don't think a war over Taiwan is likely in the near future. China's generals and admirals have to know that they will lose a protracted air and sea war with the US, or at least incur heavy losses. I'm sure that the US is prepared to defend Taiwan, and even if they weren't, Japan, Australia, the UK, and other countries would probably consider intervening.

I'd be more worried if Taiwan were on land, directly attached to China (like Tibet). Because it is an island, the logistics of capturing it and holding it against the will of much of the world become very tricky (and expensive). I really don't think that China will do anything beyond sabre-rattling.

That said, a multinational worldwide peace protest is not a bad idea, if only to let Chinese leadership know that world opinion would be stacked against them should they lose their minds and invade Taiwan.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 31 March 2005 11:01 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
World opinion matters to China; the Beijing Olympics in 2008 matter. I believe China will nonetheless take Taiwan in 2006, and try to smooth over the whole deal. Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, may have given China their opportunity.

Chen was losing his electoral bid badly when he was mysteriously "shot". Pictures from the attending hospital showed an entrance wound, and a long "glancing" wound. Chen's polling numbers went up 30%, and he narrowly won the presidency. Here's the dicey bit; I can't find an instance where he's ever shown his scars, and I'm not alone in smelling a rat. Remember that a substantial minority of Taiwanese want re-unification: think what they could do if my suspicions gain credence.


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Rufus Polson
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posted 31 March 2005 03:41 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Waitaminute--isn't the president the pan-green guy? Isn't his party/alliance/umbrella group the one *against* unification?
I believe it's the pan-blue outfit who are more for, which may seem strange because they're also the bunch that contains the remnants of the Kuomintang and are broadly right wing. But I suspect they've concluded that as fascists they'd be happier under a basically fascist Chinese state than having to deal with real democracy.

I don't know much about all this, this is just what I think I've gleaned from previous Taiwan election threads.


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nister
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posted 31 March 2005 07:34 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
RP, he's pro-independence. He spends a lot of time shoring up support for the island's standing among the 30-odd countries that recognize their statehood. While in Palau for a meet'm-greet'm and photo op, he was on the tropical beach in a full scuba suit; most every one else was wearing grass.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 31 March 2005 09:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fatal ruminate:
Perhaps a peace protest at the Chinese Embassy would convince their leaders that they have more to lose by taking offensive actions against Taiwan than they would gain?

Somehow I doubt that's gonna work. I mean, think about it - if they can shoot unblinkingly into a hundred thousand protesters in Tiananmen Square, then somehow I doubt they're going to be swayed much by a few peaceniks protesting outside their embassy in Canada.

[ 31 March 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


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AppleSeed
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posted 31 March 2005 09:54 PM      Profile for AppleSeed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But shouldn't we try? Why give up so easily?

I think the Taiwanese people would appreciate our efforts, after all, they don't want to see an invasion from the mainland either. Surely any pressure we could bring to bear on those cold eyed pragmatists in Beijing, would be helpfull.


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AppleSeed
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posted 31 March 2005 10:07 PM      Profile for AppleSeed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
While in Palau for a meet'm-greet'm and photo op, he was on the tropical beach in a full scuba suit; most every one else was wearing grass.

Omigod!

You mean he's another Stockwell Day?


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Michelle
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posted 31 March 2005 10:13 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't say they shouldn't do it. The question was whether it would prevent a war. I said no, I didn't think it would prevent a war.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 31 March 2005 10:36 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
follow the money, and i think you'll find there isn't much appetite for a war.
"In effect, the fortunes of most large Taiwanese companies are becoming entwined with China and with strengthening China's access to US and international markets. Exports from mainland China, much of it by Taiwan-invested firms, increased during 2000 to over $US248 billion, while imports—much of it from Taiwan—increased 35.8 percent to $US225.1 billion. Over 250,000 Taiwanese now work on the mainland, directing and managing corporate activity.

With such enormous economic interests at stake, Taiwanese big business is bringing intense pressure to bear on Chen Shui-bian and his government to bring about a rapprochement with Beijing. The opening of “mini-links” is likely to be only the first in a series of steps aimed at removing all restrictions on investment and economic relations between China and Taiwan."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jan2001/taiw-j12.shtml


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radiorahim
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posted 01 April 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
follow the money, and i think you'll find there isn't much appetite for a war.

Exactly. China today is quite similar today to what Taiwan was under the KMT.

A one party bureaucrat-capitalist state.


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Fidel
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posted 01 April 2005 05:52 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Grrrreeat idea!. We should plan pre-emptive, rotating protests against pre-emptive war and bombing(and vice versa) of Iraq, Iran, Korea, Cuba and Syria outside the USian embassy. That should keep them off balance for a bit.

And while we're at it, sign a non-aggression pact with Bushler. And better that nobody threatens to burn down the reichstag, please.

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


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fatal ruminate
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posted 01 April 2005 11:05 AM      Profile for fatal ruminate     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Somehow I doubt that's gonna work. I mean, think about it - if they can shoot unblinkingly into a hundred thousand protesters in Tiananmen Square, then somehow I doubt they're going to be swayed much by a few peaceniks protesting outside their embassy in Canada.

[ 31 March 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


Ah, but we have something those poor unfortunates didn't have, economic clout. Much of China's economy depends on the export of consumer goods. Faced with a boycott, the government might reconsider their efforts to forcibly annex Taiwan.
I don't think we should count on the US to defend Taiwan. Remember Kuwait? Hussein thought he had tacit premission from the US to take them over. Some similar happened with Korea in the early fifties.

I'm just tired of the entire peace movement being reactive, not proactive.


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nister
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posted 01 April 2005 01:25 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
fatal, if China should open with an embargo of Taiwan, America's options are reduced to one, that I can see: escorting tankers, liners, fishery vessels, etc. into Taiwan's ports. The US has redirected two carrier groups to the area, and has put additional B-52's on Guam. They also announced the deployment of an unspecified number of B-2's to Guam. Trouble is, China has the US by the economic balls. I think the US won't toe the line, and Taiwan's toast.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
fatal ruminate
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posted 01 April 2005 05:21 PM      Profile for fatal ruminate     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nister:
fI think the US won't toe the line, and Taiwan's toast.

This is what I fear as well. That is why I think a pre-emptive declaration of a consumer boycott on "Made in China" goods might be more effective than any putative US support for Taiwan.

Even if only the Americans who didn't vote for Bush stop buying, China would feel the impact.


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nister
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posted 01 April 2005 07:21 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
fatal, a "made in America" boycott is the only kind I see getting off the ground...and only after China actually fires in anger. Russia is backing the Chinese overtly; joint naval exercises practicing the assault, Sunburn anti-ship missiles launched by Sukhoi fighter bombers sold to the Chinese. That's enough to make the US "blink", and when they do, Taiwan should sue for whatever peace China may grant. I feel that the boycott will be protesting a fait accompli.
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Panama Jack
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posted 04 April 2005 01:13 AM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Taiwan, for now, is too vitally important to the global IT economy for a war to occur... currently Taiwan (again, for now, as this is changing quarter by quarter as more outsourcing gets taken place in the PRC) accounts for 20% of global CPU manufacturing and ~ 1/3 of all laptop assembly.

Orginally, it was Japan and the United State's dependancy on this production that framed their pro-Taiwan foreign relations stance, this of course is shifting as the Mainland gains clout, but at the same time, the economic interdependancy between the PRC and Taiwan is analogous to American - Canadian economic ties. Sure, the PRC could get along without Taiwan, but it would certainly hurt quite a bit.

Nonetheless, Chinese military hawks will demand the occassional stable-rattling on the behalf of Hu Jintao or whatever Talking Head is at the PRC helm. Hence, the Anti-secessionist law.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged

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