Author
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Topic: Fat is STILL a feminist issue
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lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534
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posted 20 December 2005 02:34 PM
A new introduction to Susie Orbach's book talks about the globalisation of Western body image ideals ... and, ironically, of the obesity epidemic. Body Hatred becoming a major western export - Orbach I very much appreciated what brebis noire said on another thread, about capitalism and its dislike for human bodies (and, I presume, those of our fellow creatures, eh brebis?). The original article refers to a feminist and global issue, please remember that while posting, though contributions from babblers of all genders are welcome as long as they respect the mandate of this forum ... and people's bodies.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002
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Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
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posted 20 December 2005 03:44 PM
This seems a little dismissive, even if I understand your point.But I think it is valuable to assert that the media oligarchy inserts bias bilaterally, and not simply against women, with men subverting their one feelings, desires, self-esteem, etc. in favour of superimposed norms. Such is actually an important aspect of the construction of those norms, as men are expected to help enforce them in everyday social dynamics, even if they don't ascribe to them. This latter is most often done in the name abstracted ideals of what makes a woman attractive to a man, within the paridigm of he the sexual discourse which at least partially binds them emotionally: "that dress makes you look fat (unsexy.)" This might be said, even if fat is not unsexy to the man. The man in this case asserting the value of the societal norm, over that of his actual preference. But as you wish, I will let it go now. [ 20 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
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brebis noire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7136
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posted 20 December 2005 04:27 PM
lagatta, I was going to post this article after I read it this morning. However, I didn't, and I think it was because although I believe Orbach's essential thesis, I question the significance of many of the trends she's mentioned (for right or for wrong, I honestly don't know - I'm probably just out of touch with what motivates the up-and-coming generation )What did ring true for me was when Orbach discusses two extremely sensitive and influence-driven periods in a woman's life, when body image/self-perception is just crazily askew (big thanks to ads, movies, celebrity culture et al). I'm talking about puberty and around childbirth. The rest of the time, at least one's body isn't going through radical growth and change. quote: Whatever point we choose in the life cycle, we can see the evidence of our preoccupation with food and body image. The latest celebrity craze for having elective caesarean deliveries at 36 weeks is designed to avoid the increase in weight associated with the last month of pregnancy, although most women don't significantly gain weight in the last two weeks anyway. The impact of this kind of decision on the mother and baby extends beyond the pregnancy and birth; quite unintentionally, the woman's ability to breastfeed and nurture her newborn is clouded by concerns about her own appearance and appetite.
OK - I truly don't know if early C-sections are a meaningful trend. If it is, this is hugely alarming. I can relate to the panic I felt when, after having a baby, I thought I might not get my body back. It was truly the only time in my life when I felt physically fat, but luckily for me, I wasn't in any kind of a spotlight, and anybody who would've dared criticize the new and temporary shape of my body would've been blasted to hell with a very strong, hormone-driven reaction . My SIL, after tonnes of criticism on her body after her 5th baby (she wasn't fat, she just had a very maternal shape), eventually went back to her smoking habit that she had successfully quit two years' previously, to get rid of the 'excess'. I can just imagine what models, actors, and other people with highly public lives must go through. That this type of pressure should influence them to opt for elective C-sections means that it's already gone way too far.
From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 20 December 2005 04:46 PM
There is a popular (I gather) young columnist in Canada who published a book about her trouble-free, fashionable C-section just this year. She planned it that way. Her rationale: she has a low pain threshold and a packed schedule. I didn't read the book, so I don't know whether she talks about body image. She certainly talks about every other kind of image - in fact, image would be all she talks about, in my memory of reading her years ago and from the one interview I heard with her this spring.Actually, older women do face dramatic challenges to their bodily self-image, repeatedly and for various reasons. For instance, at some point in your fifties, your breasts and your waist begin to migrate (breasts down, waist up), even if you were a lean person when younger. And of course weight begins to accumulate differently post-menopause. For a lot of women, that is a shock. We hear there has been an explosion in demand for plastic surgery, and not only on sagging jowls. I would think that the effect of age on breasts is one of the bigger shocks any woman ever gets in her life, and a woman insecure about her profile is going to be shaken by the experience. Most women, of course, can't afford the plastic surgery, so what do they do? It would be good if we could respond positively, and of course many wise women do. But the insecurities and the panic are certainly about. And it is no doubt true that the entire society - many men of every age and most younger people, men and women - feel a certain distaste for the characteristic silhouette of a matronly chest. Older women know how they look and how they are seen; they know that they often become either invisible or figures of fun.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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retread
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9957
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posted 20 December 2005 05:15 PM
quote: However todays facination with the very skinny is weird. Is it associated with women looking weeker than men? another form of 'I can't manage without you' comparible with high heels, baby doll eyes, bound feet, hoop skirts and hobble skirts?
As a few other males have posted, very few men prefer skinny women. That's an idea manufactured by the fashion industry - and I don't know many men who agree with them, or lesbian women for that matter. On the other hand, not many men prefer really heavy women either (mind you I don't know many women who prefer very heavy men either). Skinny suggests starvation, but in general people find healthy sexy ... most likely for good evolutionary reasons. In fact healthy equals sexy is probably partly hard coded into our genetics. The status increase for women with being skinny on the other hand is probably completely cultural ... like the status increase with height for males (taller males on average get promoted far more often and receive significantly higher salaries than their shorter brethern, even if they're not playing basketball). [ 20 December 2005: Message edited by: retread ]
From: flatlands | Registered: Jul 2005
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Greenie Mir
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11381
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posted 20 December 2005 05:23 PM
quote: Originally posted by Southlander:
However todays facination with the very skinny is weird. Is it associated with women looking weeker than men?
Exactly. According to "The Beauty Myth" by Naomi Wolf, our current conception of beauty is used to imprision and disempower women. Example- age in women used to be an symbol of power and wisdom (think wise women). Make women afraid of aging, you take away that which original gave them power. There's been lots of feminists scholars who have reflected on the issue of fat phobia much better than I ever can. However, I think it is money that is the deciding factor in pushing skinniness. Make women afraid of one more thing, and they'll be sure to buy your products to avoid it. There's no logic behind it- just marketing spin. Anyway, The Beauty Myth is a very interesting read for anyone that is interested in the things discussed in this thread.
From: Waterloo | Registered: Dec 2005
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brebis noire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7136
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posted 20 December 2005 05:26 PM
quote: Originally posted by RealityBites:
There's also a new female body type being promoted in mass media, lean but muscular. Not in the old bodybuilder way, but similar to that of a female athlete. Of course this body type is as hard (or harder) to achieve than the very skinny one.
Actually, it all depends on one's basic body type. I could achieve the lean and muscular look relatively effortlessly (well, it would help if I could afford a personal trainer ) thanks to my genetic make-up, but I will never ever get the skinny 'model'look, which is, in many cases, surgically enhanced or apparently even a genetic mutation - I'm talking about very tall, very skinny, with inexplicably high and large breasts. It's a trademark look, and completely unachievable if your body isn't already that way (except for the breasts, that is.)
From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004
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Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469
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posted 20 December 2005 05:38 PM
quote: Example- age in women used to be an symbol of power and wisdom (think wise women). Make women afraid of aging, you take away that which original gave them power.
I would think it's not aging that they fear, it's looking as though they have. I'm betting lots of women would love to live to 100 but look 50. And men too, for that matter.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002
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arborman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4372
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posted 20 December 2005 07:25 PM
Body image is definitely a cultural issue that seems to be uniquely nasty in the last 50 years or so. I agree with the assertion that most men aren't attracted to the skeleton look. I'm not sure where the impetus comes from for the fetishization of skinny - not from most of us average shmoes, as far as I can tell. In real life (as opposed to pretend media life), healthy and confident are more attractive than anything else. There may be a link between body image, skinny models and self-confidence, but my experience has been that the closer people of either gender are to a 'model' look, the more insecure they are about their appearance. The rest of us slobs (of either gender) for whom there is no hope of ever being mistaken for a model must get by with healthy, supportive relationships, an appreciation for normal amounts of good food, and having the odd person become attracted to our sense of humour. A heavy cross, but one we seem to bear reasonably well Of course, many of us are posting from the perspective of a few years of experience. The real damage occurs in the teen and early adult years, before people have acquired the skills to make their own assessments of self-worth. Many never escape the self-loathing that can result from not fitting the media ideal (of either gender). That can be a very destructive force in the lives of very vulnerable young women and men.
From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003
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v michel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7879
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posted 20 December 2005 07:46 PM
quote: Originally posted by arborman: In real life (as opposed to pretend media life), healthy and confident are more attractive than anything else.
I don't think that's true in the teenage years. I think the pop-star body type is really desired in high school, both for attracting boys and keeping friends/status. And I think much of our eating and dieting habits, as well as our self-image, are shaped in our teen years. What I hear in this thread is a lot of healthy, mature men expressing their preference for a healthy body type. But I think a lot of women already had their body image and conflicts hard-wired before you all grew up to be such healthy, mature men. What you like now doesn't matter -- I think many adult women have a relationship with their body that doesn't have a whole lot to do with what men their age find attractive. [ 20 December 2005: Message edited by: vmichel ]
From: a protected valley in the middle of nothing | Registered: Jan 2005
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Tim Baker
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11437
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posted 21 December 2005 10:51 AM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball: I know it is a mistake to suggest that the body conceptions of women are largely related to their ideas about what makes them attractive to men, but there is a strain of thought that skinny, is the 'norm' of attractiveness, as far as men are concerned. Based on my informal research, (consisting of talking to heterosexual men about what they find physically attractive in women, otherwise known as gossping) I think that this itself may be mythology, and that men self-conceptions of what they should like is distorted by media images, and that many men find thicker-rounder women essentially more attractive physically than skinny ones.
As a man I can say that while physical factors play a role in attractiveness, nothing counts higher than personality. I would rip off my happy place before coming near to dating one of the dumb, dramatic girls that I'm always around. My wife is a wonderful women. She's sweet, kind, caring, and she can always make me laugh. When I think of her I think of the times when she has been tender to me not the times we had sex or what not. No, physical atrractiveness is only a part of the muc larger "attractive" label.
By the way, Body hatred is really terrible. My wife was a bulemic in High School thanks to the perverted accepted world of girls thinking skinny chicks are the best. Sad thing was she was small to begin with. I think 5'3" and about 112 when she started [ 21 December 2005: Message edited by: Tim Baker ]
From: Franklen, Iindiana | Registered: Dec 2005
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skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478
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posted 21 December 2005 11:31 AM
arborman, you know how fond I am of you, but ...I think people still have to be relatively young - and probably healthy and lucky in other ways - to think that only adolescents struggle with body image in this society. There's also something just a touch unattractive about condescending to (ie: pitying) those who do so struggle. Many of them are in fact facing up to certain tough realities that the comfortable perhaps just haven't noticed yet. I'm trying to avoid the word smug.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001
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arborman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4372
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posted 21 December 2005 02:30 PM
quote: Originally posted by skdadl:
I'm trying to avoid the word smug.
Oh God, I hope I didn't offend. My apologies if it came across as smug. Shit - I was trying to be appreciative of the experience of the body image crisis. It was a nightmare for me, as an acne encrusted huge awkward pudgy teenager, and I had hoped that my experiences would show through. Sorry. In my defense I suspect you might be overguesstimating my relative luck in the weight or looks fields, and judging my statements on that basis. [ 21 December 2005: Message edited by: arborman ]
From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003
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Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131
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posted 15 January 2006 06:14 PM
The feminist issue as I see it is not fat per sebut the pressure to appear a particular way, physically. People harping on about how gross skinny girls look are doing just as much harm as people harping on about how gross fat girls look. Any guy who comes equipped with the argument that it's a shame so many women aspire to be skinny because HE LIKES A BIT OF MEAT ON THE BONES is not a bit progressive or feminist. Don't think defying body image fascism as fighting for the right to be FAT. Think of it as fighting for your right to be WHATEVER, and not evaluated on it. Seriously, the health issues related to obesity (or its inverse) are completely real but have NOTHING to do with the real reason anyone tsks and clucks and mocks women who don't fall within a narrow acceptable range. Be careful.
From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004
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neighbormichigan
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11734
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posted 15 January 2006 06:58 PM
Speaking as a middle aged woman of 4 children ages 24-13. Whom is also going through Pre-menopausal stretch (yahoo..I find that liberating..LOL) Every post here thus far makes a valid point. But I most agree with this one. I remember what shaped my body image and it happened in my youth, not after I'd married and had children. It was already there. I remember how I felt and thought through each decade of my life and how society, what the YOUNG men wanted (17-25) and my need to feel wanted and loved. I got way to thin..then I met a man who told me.."I love you, but your way to thin and I worry about you". What a gift he gave me. He gave me permission to one, take pride in being just the way I was intended and two to enjoy food once again. I am now not considered morbidly obese, nor am I considered model thin. I am the average american woman who by the way is anywhere from a size 14-18 and weighs in at an average 150 lbs and 5'5" tall. Complete with curves and all.I now have a daughter who is 13 (soon 14) and she worries all the time. She is 4'10" and weighs a whopping 100lbs..omg. I told her..she is beautiful, she is in no way fat, she was intended to have those curves that round her out like a little hourglass and that there were plenty of boys that would appreciate her personality and humor etc, more than anything she just had to be picky. I also told her that when she is grown she will find there are men who appreciate women for more than a mere trophy to hold up as status, women who are curvy and vuluptuos, but mostly women who are confident about who they are, where they're going, and have pride in themselves. Then I stopped purchasing the "teen magazines" for her..and I started purchasing uplifting material about successful women, movies about successful women whom were in no way skinny, whom had good self-esteem regardless of their size..and whom could be role models for her through success not pinned on the size of any part of their bodies. Now when people tell her.."wow your short"..or similar..she'll pipe in "I love being short, I can fit in places you can't fit in..like my school locker"..LOL!! Women we know of this problem it's up to us as women, mothers, daughters to help change this by helping our women friends and family see that what's important is what you contribute to society, your personality, your values. Because in a hundred years from now, it won't matter how fat you were, or what car you drove, or what size dress you wore, what will matter is what you left behind for the world and that you were important in the lives of the people who loved you. We can get this message out. We must. While obesity can be a health issue. The bigger issue is the emotional health of those that are suffering with a "body image" problem. That's what we have to change. Those models are airbrushed most of the time. They have tons of money and can afford trainers, and plastic surgeons, and custom fit clothing. They are not an accurate reflection of the "real world, wise, vuluptous, beautiful woman. And thank goodness for that!! How scary would it be to have a world full of shallow women!!
quote: Originally posted by Jesse Dignity: The feminist issue as I see it is not fat per sebut the pressure to appear a particular way, physically. People harping on about how gross skinny girls look are doing just as much harm as people harping on about how gross fat girls look. Any guy who comes equipped with the argument that it's a shame so many women aspire to be skinny because HE LIKES A BIT OF MEAT ON THE BONES is not a bit progressive or feminist. Don't think defying body image fascism as fighting for the right to be FAT. Think of it as fighting for your right to be WHATEVER, and not evaluated on it. Seriously, the health issues related to obesity (or its inverse) are completely real but have NOTHING to do with the real reason anyone tsks and clucks and mocks women who don't fall within a narrow acceptable range. Be careful.
From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006
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