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Author Topic: the scary job search
swirrlygrrl
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posted 11 March 2005 07:26 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Its that time again, where I complete a degree, and have a space of 1 - 2 years to fill before going back for another round of academia. The scary job hunt has begun, and I feel vastly underqualified for pretty much everything (damn my poor French skills in particular!)

I'd like to stay in Ottawa, but I wonder how long I could stay after graduation before it was untenable. I am of course willing to go the route of waitress/retail/etc to pay the bills, but am not sure how long to wait before taking that...particularly as there isn't a tonne of cushion in my bank account, though the parents can be relied on to assist somewhat.

Anyone have comforting thoughts, practical suggestions? Horror stories of long periods of unemployment, or links to local Starbucks that are hiring, not needed.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 11 March 2005 08:13 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by swirrlygrrl:
The scary job hunt has begun, and I feel vastly underqualified for pretty much everything.

I think that's the common feeling for recent grads-- you'll be fine.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 11 March 2005 08:27 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I understand correctly, you're finishing off a poli sci MA - is that right? Why do you have to wait one or two years before doing a doctorate?

If there's a bright side to your situation, the fact that you're looking for an explicitly short-term contract may in fact be a plus. From what I gather, managers in the public service can get money for projects much more easily than they can get the long-term funding for hiring people. If your MA work has an immediate practical and/or policy implication, and if you (or better, your supervisor and/or other profs in your dept) have contacts, it might be worth trying to pitch some sort of consulting project. For them, throwing in a few tens of thousands of dollars for a policy paper isn't that big a deal.


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steffie
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posted 11 March 2005 08:36 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
swirrly, I know that anxiety. Since I graduated 2 years ago, I have run the gamut of emotions about my employment, beginning with the early belief that I would probably get a job "in my field", something that has yet to be fully realized.

But, I have also learned that as long as I follow my strengths, academic or otherwise, whatever I do is still being essentially "true" to myself. The persona I imagined 2 years ago has morphed into somebody who makes conscious choices and lives by the consequences thereof. Specifically I mean that I choose to stay in this job-less city a little longer, putting *sigh* the interests of my child (as I see them) before my own best interests (as I see them.) For me it's the right thing to do.

Follow your heart, lean on your support network, and don't be too hard on yourself as far as expectations go. The universe will unfold before you as it should.


From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
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posted 11 March 2005 09:58 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Oliver Cromwell:
Why do you have to wait one or two years before doing a doctorate?
Sanity. Am i right, SG?

From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 14 March 2005 11:23 AM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, its the almighty dollar more than anything. For a variety of reasons, I accumulated what is, to me, a VERY scary amount of debt during my MA. Nothing compared to a lot of people, but I can't handle it hanging over me. I need to pay it off, or at least a substantial chunk of it, before going on to a PhD.

As an aside, I hate "networking." Probably my most hated of all activities.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Hegemo
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posted 14 March 2005 12:18 PM      Profile for The Hegemo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I really wish I'd taken longer between my MA and PhD (well, much of the time I wish I'd never done the PhD period, but that's another issue). I took a year between. Wasn't having much luck in the job market -- I was working as a clerical temp. One of the places where I worked for a few months wanted me to stay permanently, but I didn't think I wanted to do that long term and opted to go back to school instead.

I wish I'd taken more time so that I could save up more money, get a better focus on what it was I really wanted to do in a PhD program, and gained more non-academic job experience so that when I started the inevitable transition out of academia after completing my PhD, I had more of a resume built up.


From: The Persistent Vegetative States of America | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
catje
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posted 16 March 2005 01:38 AM      Profile for catje     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
congrats on the degree!
and good luck with the job hunt

something you can try which may or may not be a terrifying prospect is deciding where you really want to work, calling up whoever does the hiring there and asking if they need anyone with your skills. Obviously, it's a good idea to have more than one option in this case, but it works astonishingly often. I just scored my summer job this way in the first six places I called.


From: lotusland | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 16 March 2005 02:37 AM      Profile for Left Turn        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, well I got my degree lat May. I got a B.A. in music, which I transfered into after doing two years of the Bachelor of Music at a community college. Like most people who do this, I was unable to get into university music. The B.A. in music is pretty useless, the major only covers music theory and history, and I now wish i'd taken a diferent major.

Apart from a temp job at the PNE (Pacific National Exhibition) in August, I've been unemployed. I tried getting a job at one of the music stores in Vancouver, but got nothing. I took a course in Microsoft Office this past fall, hoping that it would help me get some kind of clerical job in an office, but nothing yet. I also did some volunteering in the fall at the Immigrant Services Society of British Columbia, but that hasn't helped much. Most of the places hiring for office jobs want at least 1-2 years previous experience, and even then they only pay $8-$10 an hour. God, I could have earned that much at some food service without going to university. Any office jobs that involve answering a phone seem to want previous direct customer service experience, which I don't have. I've also heard that 80% of entry level clerical jobs are through temp agencies.

I have been getting help from HRDC Canada, and they do have programs that can help people find work. What programs are available will depend on where you live. Here in Burnaby there's a place called training innovations where anyone who's unemployed and wants to access HRDC funded employment programs goes to be case managed. The case manager then refers clients to the various employment programs. Ther's also a youth employment centre that gives employment help to clients under 30 (used to be under 25 but HRDC extended their definition of "youth" to 30 as they realized that it was taking youth longer to establish carreers. I was sent to the Youth Employment Centre to get help with my resume. They also do case management, and I could change my case management to there if I want to, the advantages being that it's closer to where I live, and the case managers also provide help with individual job applications you're working on.

I got referred to a wage subsidy program for youth with degrees trying to start careers. The wage subsidy program provides clients with a wage subsidy letter which they can then put in their job application. What the wage subisdy program does is it pays employers 50% of a client's wage, but the client still has to find the job themselves. Ordinarily the wage subsidy would be 18 weeks, but the government is cancelling this particular wage subsidy in favour of a wage subisdy for youth who dropped out of high school. Thus all funds from the this wage subsidy have to be paid out by the the end of June, meaning the length of the potential subsidy now shrinks until it eventually runs out.

The Wage Subsidy works well for people who know how to access the hidden job market, which is easier if you've been directly trained to do a specific skill and know that all employers in a given field hire these people
Ex. Nurse in a hospital, Engineer in an engineering firm, dental hyegenist in a dental office, architect in an architectural firm ect.
I'm hoping to get referred to a job search program where they teach people how to access the hidden job market.

P.S. Nobody ever deserves to be unemployed, it's a function of the rotten capitalist system.


From: BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 16 March 2005 01:31 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, sg, I was in exactly the same position as you about 3 years go. Leaving Carleton with an MA in Polisci, nonexistent French skills, and in Ottawa, where most of the good Polisci-related jobs require French (and quite reasonably so).

I was fortunate enough to qualify for EI, and it took me the full term to find a good job. In fact, I spent the first week after my EI ran out doing the job I had done many years before, that had motivated me to go to school in the first place - talk about depressing. (The fact that it involved cutting the heads off of fish and pulling out their guts all day didn't help).

In the meantime, arborwoman had been offered a job out in Vancouver, so we moved back here. French is not an issue out West here.

One advantage you have in Ottawa is the Public Service - check the site here every day. Not all of them require French. Also, for a Polisci type, you might have some luck getting work for an MP - try calling the NDP MPs, staff turnover can be high -you may get lucky.

I, like you, completely despise networking - I'm not sure your background, but I've read that people from blue collar backgrounds have real difficulty with it (feels fake), while other backgrounds come to it naturally.

What did finally get me my job (which is great, social policy research etc.) was tracking a few social policy organizations and going to their events, then buttonholing the boss on the coffee break.

Also have a regular look at Charity Village, if you are into non-profit work. Google it for the link.

Most jobs aren't posted, however, and those that are usually get swamped with resumes (many of which will be better than yours or mine). You will have more luck knocking on doors, though it is a very depressing process.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 16 March 2005 02:22 PM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by arborman:
Leaving Carleton with an MA in Polisci, nonexistent French skills, and in Ottawa, where most of the good Polisci-related jobs require French (and quite reasonably so).

I was fortunate enough to qualify for EI, and it took me the full term to find a good job.


Out of sheer curiousity (and the fact that I will likely be in swirrlygrrl's situation at the end of August, substituting a different university and most likely a different city) how did you qualify for EI? It would be great to have some support while buying time to find a position, but I didn't know you could do that? My partner and I could have benefitted from when we finished our BAs.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 16 March 2005 07:19 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I qualified for EI as a result of the hours I worked in my summer job the year previous. I suspect I was a special case - the job amounted to 16-18 hours/day for 3 months straight without a day off, so I earned the requisite amount of hours to qualify through sheer sweat. (It was a miserable job, but wonderfully lucrative - I made about as much that summer as I now do in my annual salary).
From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 16 March 2005 07:25 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess I've been spoiled, but what is the tradition in poli sci for supporting PhD students financially? In economics, it's almost always the case that students are assured funding for at least 4 years, and usually more.
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
somersol
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posted 16 March 2005 07:43 PM      Profile for somersol   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I seem fit a profile in this thread - arts degree, broke, ottawa, frenchless.
I graduated university in 1997. I never felt smarter than when I was at school - since then I have devolved significantly.
I recall one evening at class, reading through the boreal sludge of Don Quixote, when a "mature student" turned to me and began a conversation about my future. He advised me - at length - to hop from degree to degree, to never leave school in effect. At the time, all I wanted to do was get the hell OUT of school. He was right though, at least where I was concerned.
At age 21, I spent a 2-hour lecture studying the last paragraph of "The Dead." At 31, I spend 7.5 hours a day filing personnel records and reading freebie copies of the Ottawa Sun.
If you (swrrlygrrl) have the grades and the inclination, I would shoot for the Ph.D.
PS: My debt is my shadow. If it ever vanishes I will be SHOCKED.

From: ontario | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 16 March 2005 08:08 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Oliver Cromwell:
I guess I've been spoiled, but what is the tradition in poli sci for supporting PhD students financially? In economics, it's almost always the case that students are assured funding for at least 4 years, and usually more.

There is funding available for PhD. students, though it is tied to grades (much like funding for MA students). Money was not the deciding factor for me when I left academia - I just had no interest in going any further at the time. No such interest has arisen yet - probably because I'm lucky enough to have a research job with concrete outcomes in the community. Not everyone is so lucky.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to attend schooling at any level beyond a BA unless they know why they are there, and what they want to do. (NOTE: Not what they want to do with their lives, but what they want out of the degree). Academia for its own sake sounds to me like agony, and once committed to a PhD. it can be a long, drawn out and ultimately failed agony.

That being said, I've considered a PhD for much later in my life. I have no desire to teach at a University, but I would enjoy the challenge of taking on a single research project for a period of years with a reduced consideration of funding etc. At present, I take on multiple research projects for varying times, but nothing so focused and extended. It might drive me crazy though- I do like variety, and I've found that the linkages between differing research projects can be quite astonishing (and illuminating).

If I give any advice to sg at all, it would be: Don't treat your job search like you are looking for a 'placeholder job'. Look for a real one, with real work. I know a lot of people with fantastic jobs who have MA degrees - you may not feel the need to go back to do a PhD. If you do go back, real work experience in that sort of job will help you, work experience as an overqualified waitperson or temp will not.

Placeholder jobs are only acceptable if they are temporary, and do not impede your ability to keep looking for a good, interesting and challenging job. They exist.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
LukeVanc
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posted 16 March 2005 09:09 PM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

I'm hoping to get referred to a job search program where they teach people how to access the hidden job market.

...

Large employers tend to have human resource departments and keep resumes and application forms on hand when they do hiring, often done in "waves".

BC Liquor still pays pretty well and they will hire absolutely anyone.

Telus still hires in waves once in a while.

There are call centre jobs in Vancouver, Burnaby, and Surrey paying $15 plus an hour, Bell for example.

The Bay is always hiring and again, $15 an hour range and they will hire almost anyone.

Collections agencies are liberal in their hiring as well, with high turnover rates... and pay in the $12 an hour range.

The universities are HUGE employers and that is where many BA graduates end up - check out the HR websites and see what is available.

Suffice to say, get your resume out to the HR departments of every large company you can think of. They don't put ads in the newspapers... you just need to contact them and make sure they put you on file.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lonecat
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posted 16 March 2005 09:47 PM      Profile for lonecat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
swirrlygrrl, have you applied for any of the sessional lecturer positions at your University?
At the U of R, there are a pile of Masters and PhD students, and Masters graduates who teach at my University. From what I understand, the pay is not too bad.

From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Hegemo
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posted 16 March 2005 09:57 PM      Profile for The Hegemo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Oliver Cromwell:
I guess I've been spoiled, but what is the tradition in poli sci for supporting PhD students financially? In economics, it's almost always the case that students are assured funding for at least 4 years, and usually more.

When I was at Queen's, we were guaranteed an amount for three years (combination of TAship and fellowship), and guaranteed some funding for the fourth year, although not necessarily at the same level (although in practice it did wind up staying the same). In year five, you could typically teach a half-year course as a sessional. Beyond that, you're SOL, unless they get desperate enough for warm bodies that they will let you teach another course.


From: The Persistent Vegetative States of America | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 16 March 2005 10:11 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's good to know. I get the impression that there are too many disciplines that accept way more doctoral students than they could possibly fund, or who could reasonably expect to find employment in their field once they graduate.
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
jon lyles
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posted 17 March 2005 04:11 AM      Profile for jon lyles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As an aside, I hate "networking." Probably my most hated of all activities.

Isn't this networking? Although I didn't go on to do a masters I did go to school in Ottawa and found Ottawa to be an extremely inhospitable place for someone not speaking french or not having a close friend or relative in the public service. I strongly suggest you pack your bags and go to Toronto or Montreal and IMMEDIATELY increase your marketability.

Ironically you can get by much better in Montreal without French than you could in Ottawa, the difference being private companies aren't as obsessed with the French thing as much as the government. (I'm referring to English companies of course)


From: Montreal | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
catje
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posted 17 March 2005 04:17 AM      Profile for catje     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by arborman:

I know a lot of people with fantastic jobs who have MA degrees - you may not feel the need to go back to do a PhD.

Just out of curiousity, what sort of jobs are those? It often seems like MAs are just stepping stones to PhDs.


From: lotusland | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 17 March 2005 02:40 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Most research jobs outside academia don't require PhDs, in my experience. They certainly accept people with PhDs, but few of the people I work with are docs.

So, specifically, jobs in the non-profit research sector, foundations, insitutes and the like. Public Service is also reasonably open to MAs.

I am referring specifically to Masters degrees in disciplines like political science, sociology, economics, social work etc. I have no idea what happens to people with 'hard' science degrees.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 17 March 2005 03:43 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm about to graduate as well, and yesterday I had a sudden burst of despair when it occurred to me that I'm considerably older than most of my classmates, and my resume is filled with call centre jobs. My fear is that an employer looking at such a resume will say, "hmm, this guy's obviously an underachiever- sure he's trying to upgrade himself, but do I want to take a chance on him when there's all these promising young graduates? No way! Once a loser, always a loser."

Please tell me it's not going to be like this.

[ 11 May 2005: Message edited by: Agent 204 ]


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Granola Girl
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posted 17 March 2005 03:53 PM      Profile for Granola Girl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I weep with all of you.
I am graduating with my undergrad in at the end of this month -- and I owe over $40 000 in student loans. I want to do my MA at some point, but don't see how I'll manage to with all the debt I have racked up. Why, oh why caouldn't I have been born somewhere civilized like France, or Germany, or Cuba???

From: East Van | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 17 March 2005 04:08 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Keenan:

Please tell me it's not going to be like this.

It won't be like this.

If anything, employers will likely say to themselves, "Here's someone who has thought hard about what he wants, and did what had to be done to get it, and at a not-inconsiderable cost."


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Granola Girl
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posted 17 March 2005 04:11 PM      Profile for Granola Girl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe we could start some kind of online student-debt support group?
From: East Van | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 17 March 2005 04:22 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Having been in the job market for 14 months now, I have become pretty cynical. I admit I am a rather independent and socially reserved person, and as a result networking beyond family and friends is excruciating. I can't stave off the present by re-entering academia, either, because I am in semi-default of my undergrad student loans (from 10 years ago). All the best jobs are highly coveted, and near-impossible to even be considered for an interview.

My advice to anyone would be to avoid leaving the academic world, unless you are stepping directly into a good job that meets your particular needs. Momentum is key. If you lose momentum on the outside, you will never get it back.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
LaGitana
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posted 17 March 2005 04:36 PM      Profile for LaGitana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I always kind of lean towards finally doing the MA but I already feel like I am rather underemployed after even just a BA. I don't use even a quarter of what I took at school and I fear after an MA it would be even worse.
From: El capitolio | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 17 March 2005 04:45 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
My fear is that an employer looking at such a resume will say, "hmm, this guy's obviously an underachiever- sure he's trying to upgrade himself, but do I want to take a chance on him when there's all these promising young graduates? No way! Once a loser, always a loser."

Just for fun I ran this question by a colleauge of mine who does hiring at the university I work at. Her answer was "Nope. This shows he's not afraid to work at a crappy job and if I had to pick between interviewing a candidate with several previous low level jobs and a university degree, and someone with no experience and a degree, all things considered, I'd go with the one with work experience".


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 17 March 2005 04:50 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm. I hope you're right. Just to clarify, the sequence of events goes something like this:

Two undergrad degrees interspersed with crappy part time jobs,

An abortive attempt at grad school,

A series of crappy full time jobs,

Back to school for a one year post degree community college program.

I left the grad school stint off the latest edition of my resume, fearing that it would make me look like I can't finish what I start.

And like others here, I suck at networking.

[ 11 May 2005: Message edited by: Agent 204 ]


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 17 March 2005 05:11 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Mike Keenan: And like others here, I suck at networking.

I dunno if that's a bad thing or not. Networking sometimes seems like acting friendly while turning other people into a means to your own self-advancement. Just pretend you're a capitalist and you'll do fine. Can't do that? Pretend you don't give a shit. Just remember not to stay that way.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 17 March 2005 07:37 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is a difference between using people, while pretending to like them, and calling around to find out if there are jobs available. People are generally nice, and want to help.

It seems that many of us, myself included, want to be 'discovered' by a dream job. None of us likes putting ourselves out there to be rejected - I am a pretty quiet and reticent person by nature, and definitely not an outgoing people person. That being said, the harsh reality is that worthwhile jobs and employment don't come to us, we have to find it.

There is a lot of crappy work out there, and it is easy enough to get caught up in it. Don't accept it - keep looking, don't get into a rut. Nothing is more depressing than wasted years punching a clock somewhere.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 17 March 2005 08:35 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by arborman:

There is a lot of crappy work out there, and it is easy enough to get caught up in it. Don't accept it - keep looking, don't get into a rut. Nothing is more depressing than wasted years punching a clock somewhere.

I disagree. There is nothing wrong with low-level work, as long as you keep looking. I'd never consider making a career at my current job, but it's better than drowning in debt. And showing future career employers that I have experience in such positions can't hurt.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
sock puppet
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posted 17 March 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for sock puppet   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I disagree. There is nothing wrong with low-level work, as long as you keep looking.
I'd agree, with one proviso - never accept something lower than your target in your field. It demeans you, and allows your employer to significantly undervalue you.

From: toronto | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Digiteyes
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posted 17 March 2005 09:41 PM      Profile for Digiteyes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote: I disagree. There is nothing wrong with low-level work, as long as you keep looking.

I'd agree, with one proviso - never accept something lower than your target in your field. It demeans you, and allows your employer to significantly undervalue you.


Sorry. I strongly disagree.

I felt that nothing was as demeaning as having No Money At All. If you work a low-paying temp job while looking for a career position, chances are you're not going to be looking for employment with the same employer. i.e., Starbucks may help you pay the rent, but if you've got a Master's degree in an Arts program, that's probably not where you're looking for your career.

I've heard some kids these days say there is no way they'd accept doing a summer job at a loathesome place like a fast-food joint. they'd rather not work at all. It's an interesting perspective: everything for the principle. But how is it going to help pay for post-secondary education? No money is no money is no money.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 17 March 2005 09:43 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by arborman:

There is a lot of crappy work out there, and it is easy enough to get caught up in it. Don't accept it - keep looking, don't get into a rut. Nothing is more depressing than wasted years punching a clock somewhere.


Hell, I've wasted plenty of years doing that. That's the problem.

Maybe if I didn't have student loans (lower than many people's, mind you- I was relatively lucky in this regard) and if welfare paid enough that one could actually live on it, I'd consider it... but if the only applications that get responses are the ones to call centres, I have no choice but to go back on the phones.

Fortunately, I'm feeling a little better about my chances now. I think I was just having a little spell of negativity.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 17 March 2005 09:58 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have a resume that includes a 12 yr. career in construction including general labour. work in the construction trades, and then construction and project management and development consulting. All of that was following an Hon. Bus. Admin education. It goes on to list an LLB., the practice of law, and a lot of civic involvement. Just prior to the law school bit, there are stints as a commercial truck driver and as a factory worker in a "finger-eating" punch press environment.

I find that prospective employers are enthralled and amazed at the diversity of my background. They appreciate diversity and demonstrated flexibility.

[ 17 March 2005: Message edited by: James ]


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Granola Girl
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posted 17 March 2005 11:59 PM      Profile for Granola Girl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm more and more convinced that I should have gone into the trades. A girlfriend of mine just finished her electrician's certificate and she's making $25 hour to start...plus she's in high demand.
From: East Van | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bernard W
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posted 18 March 2005 01:11 AM      Profile for Bernard W        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I have no idea what happens to people with 'hard' science degrees.

It's usually a straighter road, because those degrees are often directly tailored to the job market. In general a M.Sc. or M.Eng. can be parlayed into a good industrial job in relatively short time; I recall in the 90s some guys I knew had jobs lined up, sometimes a full year before graduating.

In my case the road was a little more tortuous. I actually started a B.Sc. but dropped out and did a number of blue-collar job, like truck driver and construction. I must say I actually enjoyed it (liked being outside), but after a serious accident left me disabled, I returned to school and eventually landed a M.Sc. in Physics.

As I graduated in the early 80s, in the thick of a recession, the job search was somewhat difficult. I was offered some data entry jobs but held a bit longer by doing R.A. work for my former professors. I got a 'good' research job 9 months after graduating.

Probably like many others here, I did not stay in my exact field, and started a consulting business in computers and electrical engineering.

And now I'm back as a construction worker again.


From: Algonquin Park, Ontario | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 18 March 2005 01:06 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Currently, I'm feeling pretty positive, and have stopped looking around for a cardboard box to call home. The Political Science program at Carleton sucks for the "networking" thing, but Public Admin is job heaven apparently, and one of the benefits of my time at the Graduate Students' Association has been getting to know a few Public Admin students, who are offering me advice, and helping me get my resume out there.

It seems crazy to me that people are SO NICE about shopping someone elses resume around, and after a phone call with a former senior manager in government last night who now does consulting, I feel like I have a better idea of how to go about this process. She told me that that if I'm not looking for a permanent position, or are at least willing to start in a temp postiion, I should have an easier time at least getting in, even without great French (still signing up for spoken French classes, which is my major weakness above reading or writing).

On the other hand, I am dismayed about the fact that pretty much everyone is telling me that this meritocracy idea, where jobs are advertised and your resume counts, is a pipe dream. How disillussioning. It means that I may spend half of April phoning around to departments I have an interest in working in and chatting up the director, trying to convince them to hire me on a casual basis. I can handle cold calls, if necessary. The fact that people seem to want to help is making this feel less like my idea of cold blooded, self interested "networking" and more human, but it still doesn't feel fair.

On the point of getting sidetracked from doing a PhD, I want to do one, and I don't think this will stop me. I took 2 years off between undergrad and MA, and my time in paid employment just reinforced that I wanted to get back into academics, and I think has given me a new perspective for my research in some cases. Applications for externals and in many cases internal funding were due forever ago, so PhD for September 2005 isn't even an option at this point, and I'm okay with that. I put a tonne of thought into this, and I'm confident enough that I can keep my goals in perspective, even with a steady paycheque.

And I totally am in the boat of any work is more acceptable to me than voluntary unemployment. I just have a deep aversion to not having a paycheque of some kind - the idea of not having a job brings out a reptilian panic in me, particularly as I don't have savings to speak of to rely on at this point, and I do have bills and a cat to take care of (its all about keeping the cat in the lifestyle to which she has become accustomed). Seriously, I think it totally relates to periods of involunary unemployment faced my parents in the past, and an incredible aversion to debt that stems from having experienced poverty and seen what debt does to people, how it constrains you.

Okay, going back to feeling positive now. Tony Robbins frame of mind. Picturing my own success, yadda yadda.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 18 March 2005 08:22 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just to be clear - I wasn't saying to accept voluntary unemployment and penury over a crappy job. I've had dozens of placeholder jobs, the trick is not to stop looking for a good job once you start at the coffee shop.

Like James, my resume has a wide range of job types and industries in it. Aside from mining, I think I've spent time in almost every primary industry we have, including the oilpatch, fisheries and forestry. I liked them all, for different reasons, and I despised them all as well. (It gave me great pleasure to leave the oilpatch and the fishery, though I still sometimes consider ditching my desk and heading back to the woods).

Ironically, my current resume doesn't list them, because it is getting full with more relevant items (publications etc.) for my current career.

Swirrly - don't just focus on the Public service - have a look around at some of the research outfits, like the CCPA etc. Contract work is the nature of the non-profit research sector, and many of us are often looking for consultants/temporary research types to help out with a project. It can also lead to longer-term work.

I also didn't mean to suggest you should divert from the PhD path, if that's your goal. To each their own, and I wish you the best.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 23 April 2005 07:20 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I'm feeling a bit better about things than I was before. I have a job interview this coming Friday, with a municipal government. (First time any of the employers I sent a resume to actually called me back).

So we'll see.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
peppermint
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posted 23 April 2005 07:57 PM      Profile for peppermint     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To the students freaking out about their debt- There's always the option of coming over to Asia to teach for a year.


It seemed like a last resort when I was in uni, but it's worked out pretty well for me. Most people I know here save at least half their wages and still live comfortably. If nothing else it's a good way to put a dent in your loans.


From: Korea | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 23 April 2005 08:32 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by peppermint:
To the students freaking out about their debt- There's always the option of coming over to Asia to teach for a year.

I'd be interested in knowing, just in general, what the salary/benefit range and qualification requirements are.


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 23 April 2005 08:52 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And how many scams you have to wade through before you hit pay dirt.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 23 April 2005 08:59 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
13 social democracies have no university tuition fees. The Yanks are carting off our natural resources by the hour, and we've got kids from poor families in Canada stuck with what amount to student loan debt sentences. Jack Layton describes it as having a mortgage without a house.

[ 23 April 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 23 April 2005 09:13 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good luck Agent 204! On a related note, that is one of the things that does really tick me off - the lack of even a PFO letter from the vast majority of places one bothers to tailor a cover letter and resume for. I've applied for 20-30 jobs, and gotten 2 polite rejections; everyone else, well, maybe they just haven't made a decision?

To rant for a bit on a personal note, however, I did get good news...I think. I had applied for a very low paid ($18,500 for 10 months) internship programme, which had turned me down after my undergrad degree. Well, not only did I get an interview, I got offered a position.

While this is the type of thing I've always wanted to do, I'm torn. Wthout tuition fees, and the potential for a summer job before it starts, I'm actually looking at a jump up in living standards, in looking at the fact that there are jobs out there that pay actual money, some of them what appear to be ridiculous sums (mostly government), I'm also looking at my growing debt load, and thinking that if I take this, I'll likely want to move to a smaller apartment to save some cash (in part because I've been warned that the crazy busy lifestyle I currently have, which has at times made me wonder why i spend the money I do on my apartment, since I'm never there) to prevent any debt growth, even if I can't pay it off. While its very low paid, it does have a lot of perks, including a two week exchange to Europe, and several inter-Canada exchanges (including Iqualuit!!!)

And, I wonder, since I'm supposed to hear back from a policy recruitment programme in mid-May (they've extended the date to be informed by not once, but twice now - GRRRR!), how I would feel if I accepted the low paid but dreamy internship and then got an interview for this programme, which offers interesting, challenging work, incredible pay, benefits and security.

If I can't do this type of work now, when I'm 25, then I guess its never going to happen. But, if I can't get a job that enables me to pay off my debt, I also don't think I can go back for a PhD, and I don't want to wait too long to go back for one - I can't imagine being a student at 32 or 33, in part because being a student has meant a student lifestyle, crushing debt and continued dependance on my parents. But, if I turn down this internship, there's no guarantee on snobby policy program, and then there's be a gaping maw of unemployment looming before me, with no guaranteed relief. Yarg. I got some thinking to do.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
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posted 27 April 2005 01:04 AM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by swirrlygrrl:
On a related note, that is one of the things that does really tick me off - the lack of even a PFO letter from the vast majority of places one bothers to tailor a cover letter and resume for.
No kidding, that does suck. Reminds me of a job I interviewed for, and which was re-posted two months later, and it was only another month later that I heard through the grapevine that they had filled the position. In the meantime I heard not a peep

It does really suck that the one offer may expire before you hear back from the 2nd one. Is there any way for you to inquire as to whether there's any chance of an early choice being made?

My situation is that we have to decide fairly soon if we're staying in T-dot or not. I felt that getting either an acceptance or rejection letter from York's PhD program would make that decision a lot easier. Finally, I got a letter almost a month after they were supposed to be sent. The answer: I'm on the waiting list, I won't know until "mid-summer", whenever that is. And I was hoping they'd make the decision *easier*, not harder.


From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 11 May 2005 09:13 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, that first interview came to nothing. They told me they'd get back to me by the following Wednesday, i.e. a week ago today, regardless of their decision. When I hadn't heard from them by Thursday, I called one of the people who'd interviewed me (she'd given me her card) and all she said was that "A decision has been made, and HR will be getting back to you in the next couple of days." They haven't.

I had an interview today with a consulting firm, which went reasonably well except that they guy seemed to be saying, "we'll likely be hiring in a month or so, so we'll be calling people for follow-up interviews then". Oh well, I expect to hear back from others in the meantime, and there are things I can fall back on if I have to.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 12 May 2005 01:09 AM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For anyone who is having trouble finding employment, I strongly recommend one of the (formerly) HRDC funded job search programs. They are free, and provide a lot of good suggestions and approaches to job seeking that go way beyond just mailing in resumes to posted jobs.

I can actually say that it did work for me...


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 12 May 2005 02:07 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've joined the (unemployed) club. Week One.

Interestingly, EI (I mean HRDC of course) won't even accept an application for EI without the ROE . The good news is that employers are required to supply the ROE within 2 weeks. I think it used to be 30 days.

(ROE = Record of Employment)


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 04 June 2005 12:43 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, my status has changed from unemployed to underemployed. I'm working afternoons at the call centre I worked at before going back to school, keeping my mornings open to look for a job I don't have to be ashamed of. I've had a few more interviews, and lots of rejection letters full of insincere praise, but nothing yet.

I figure I'll continue to search for work in my field until I either find a job, or until next spring, when the next crop of graduates come out and further searching will likely be futile.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 07 June 2005 10:05 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Update- I just got offered a proper job. I start on the 22nd, and for the first time in years I'll have a job that I don't have to be ashamed of. Maybe I'm not a loser after all.
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 June 2005 10:08 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Congratulations, Agent!
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 07 June 2005 10:12 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, skdadl. I'd been freaking out about this a lot of late, so this came as great news.
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 June 2005 10:26 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, you can hold my hand, and maybe together we can hold N.Beltov's hand, while he and I go through the continuing uncertainties.

I'm in an anomalous situation, needing work and yet semi-unable to work because of recurring family health crises. It's a strange place to be.

But I'm genuinely glad to hear that wonderful sound, the voice of someone whose anxiety has just been lifted. Good on you. Enjoy it.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 07 June 2005 10:34 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ouch. Sorry to hear about the way things are for you. But I imagine it will work itself out. (This time yesterday I might not have said that; I was feeling rather down about the whole thing).

Good luck.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 June 2005 10:40 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Agent.

And it will. What doesn't kill us, y'know ...


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 07 June 2005 10:54 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
... makes us stranger?

(credit goes to Trevor Goodchild from Ĉon Flux)


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 June 2005 11:05 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You said it, Agent.

Moi, these days:


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 07 June 2005 11:09 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Allow me to add my congratulations, Agent 204. Sweet relief!

skdadl, I was angsting to a dear friend recently with regards to my own current uncertain employment/life situation and he said that "We never, ever, know what's around the corner". It's not always easy to bear this in mind when life looks mean and uncharitable, but it's quite true; the most unlikely opportunities present themselves at the most unlikely times and in the most unlikely way. As this wise friend also said, be ready and keep moving. To which I'd add that it helps to keep your eyes and ears open, too.

Good luck.


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
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posted 07 June 2005 03:49 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Maquila Solidarity Network is looking for a labour rights program officer in Toronto. (verbatim?)

The World Peace Forum in Vancouver is having trouble finding a communications coordinator:

quote:
PUBLICITY AND COMMUNICATIONS COORDINATOR
WORLD PEACE FORUM

This person will work as part of a team with Executive Director of Operations and the Executive Director of Outreach and Programming, a Publicity and Communications Subcommittee of the World Peace Forum Society and the Administration Coordinator to create and implement an international media and communications plan.

The World Peace Forum (WPF) is a major international undertaking. The Forum is planned to be broad in scope, providing an umbrella under which movements and organizations will work together on peace issues, including city representatives, indigenous peoples, women, youth and seniors to network and demonstrate to the world our hopes and our hopes and strategies for peace and justice. The World Peace Forum would allow for a major arts and cultural component, and maximize citizen involvement will be held in Vancouver B.C. June 23-28, 2006. The position is a 13-month contract position. An attractive salary and benefit package is being offered.

Responsibilities
Develop and implement an effective marketing and promotions strategy that reaches all levels of media, from local, community and city media in British Columbia, to national and international media, including print and electronic sources such as television, radio, email and satellite communication and maintenance of a web-site for a variety of events at the World Peace Forum and events leading up to the WPF 2006.

The Coordinator will work with a team to communicate with environmental, labour, social justice-non-profit organizations and educational organizations such as universities, colleges, and schools, local community and governmental bodies, First Nations organizations, women and youth groups, business and individuals to ensure the publicity necessary to the success of the WPF 2006.

- Undertake the writing of press releases, public service announcements, newsletters and brochures.
- Designs or supervises the design of brochures, posters, signs and banners.
- Develop and coordinate the volunteer committee that will expand and enhance the communications strategy.
- Work with an Editorial Committee to develop content for the website and radio station
- Develop a strategy to communicate with international non-governmental organizations or representatives via satellite
- Keep all records and data current with respect to the media strategy;
- Keep the Executive Directors and members of a volunteer team apprised of the progress of the communication plan.
- Establish a Media Centre at the World Peace Forum for the use of local, freelance or international media.

Qualifications:
The candidate for this position will have a proven track record doing publicity and media for events/conferences that involve significant international participation. Excellent English-language communication skills including writing and use of computer and internet are essential. Ability to work in a second language is a preferred asset.

The candidate will have excellent organizational skills with an ability to meet deadlines.

Experience working with graphic designers and printers and an ability to use a tendering process for design or printing contracts will be important.

The Communications Coordinator will share a vision and passion for global peace and justice and be able to motivate others with this vision. The successful applicant will be able to effectively supervise while motivating others, including volunteers. Good knowledge and connections with peace organizations at local, national and international levels are desirable.

The ability to work in a team context and to problem solve in a creative way will be essential.

Terms and Conditions
Term: Full time from June 2005 to July 2006 with a probation period of two months.

Salary: Negotiable. Competitive salary.

To apply: Send resume and three references to World Peace Forum Society as electronic attachments to [email protected] with additional hard copy (if required) to World Peace Society office to the address below:
#420 550 West 6th Avenue, Vancouver, BC V5Z 1A1

Questions can be dealt with at 604 687-3223
Closing date June 10, 2005 at 5:00 pm.



From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
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posted 20 June 2005 06:46 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
BEST in Vancouver is looking for a policy & communications manager.
quote:
Better Environmentally Sound Transportation (BEST) is Canada’s largest nongovernmental organization promoting sustainable transportation and livable communities. BEST is a membership-based, non-profit charity that works with individual citizens, governments, educators, youth, volunteers and special interest and community groups to create healthy and sustainable communities for everyone. We have a wide range of
creative programs and are independent, outspoken, pragmatic and results-oriented. See www.best.bc.ca.

Reporting to the Executive Director, the Manager of Policy and Communications is fully versed in current transportation policy issues, is familiar with the Vancouver political scene, and can lead critical communication campaigns for a forward thinking non-profit.



From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 30 June 2005 03:18 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
(Better late than never)

Congrats to Agent 204! skdadl, am so sorry to hear that you are having to go through the rough job search...not as though you don't have enough to occupy your time and thoughts.

I just got word today that my security clearance has gone through, and as of Monday I will be in the employ of the government (until my internship program begins in September). Funny enough, though its supposedly a clerical position, the salary is more than I've ever made in my life, even when I was working full time for a non-profit. Not going to complain to loudly, as 2 months without a paycheque has not improved the student debt sitch.

I guess that networking paid off for me - what a sad indictment of the system.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 30 June 2005 03:28 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by swirrlygrrl:
I just got word today that my security clearance has gone through...

Yet more evidence of the incompetance of our security services, I'm sure


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 30 June 2005 03:31 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oops (double post)

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 02 July 2005 01:25 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An insult so nice, you had to post it twice???
From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged

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