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Author Topic: CHINESE (not Taiwanese) Hate Rioters March Through Taipei
NDP Newbie
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posted 25 September 2004 06:39 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let the bastards drown in the heavy rain.

These right-wing ultra-nationalist vermin deserve it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3689110.stm


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 25 September 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Forgive me, NDP Newbie, but if you're referring to the demonstrators, I don't see what's right-wing or ultra-nationalist about them, let alone any indication in the BBC story that they were rioting.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 25 September 2004 10:21 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It must be their fondness for bubble tea a give away every time
From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 25 September 2004 10:26 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, there have been tea riots in the lead-up to revolutions before, but even so, I'm still puzzled...
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 26 September 2004 10:04 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They're KMT/PFP supporters.

The Pan-Blue parties rely on a toxic mix of social conservatism (their supporters tend to be culturally conservative Mainlanders who are extremely racist, homophobic, and misogynist), dirty politics, radical capitalism, and Pan-Chinese nationalism.

The Pan-Green parties have thought for free elections, social progress, and distinct Taiwanese identity.

Leftist ideals were central to the anti-KMT movement led by middle-class Hoklo intellectuals who want to build a liberal democracy independent of both the ROC and the PRC.

If you have any doubt as to how rotten the KMT is, read this excerpt:

"Our favorite moments, however, were when academic Hsu Yung-ming (徐永明 said that the KMT's problem in elections was that Hoklo speakers were not smart enough to understand the intellectual arguments put forward by the "highly educated" KMT candidates, and Legislator Apollo Chen (陳學聖 said they were so ignorant of history that they wouldn't understand the "significance" of the KMT's comparison of Chen Shui-bian (陳水扁 to Adolf Hitler in the runup to the Presidential election."

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/09/26/2003204425

Hoklo speakers are Hans of Fujianese origin who immigrated to Taiwan long before the Chinese Civil War. They form the majority and have been oppressed by the Mainlanders for decades.

Their language was suppressed in favour of Mandarin (as were the Hakka and Aboriginal languages), the language of the Beijingese fascists who ran the KMT.

I think its time the Hoklo, the Hakka, and the Aboriginals unite and form a pact banning all pro-unification Mainlanders from ever holding political office. Furthermore, Hakka, Hoklo, English, and the Aboriginal languages should be given precedence over the MAndarin of KMT imperialists.


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 September 2004 08:14 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But the protesters - who included politicians from opposition parties and retired generals - say the deal could spark an arms race.

They say the money would be better spent on public welfare projects.


That sounds like something the NDP might organize?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 27 September 2004 09:38 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

That sounds like something the NDP might organize?


It's all propaganda. The KMT/PFP know that the "Mainlander" elite, formerly planning to reconquer the "Mainland" but now want to give up so that the right-wing government in Beijing will reward them with patronage posts for delivering Taiwan to China (Both positions are wrong, in my view. Taiwan is not theirs. It belongs to the Taiwanese and to the Aboriginals), are on the verge of losing what little power they have left in Taiwan and they want to make the nation extremely vulnerable to Chinese attacks.

More proof that they're lying? They go on about how the DPP is funding and supporting the Bush administration by buying weapons from the US. Meanwhile, some of the most corrupt Kuomintang and People First Party members are seen schoomzing at the GOP convention. Is that the work of people who are honest and who care abou thteir country?

The Democratic Progressive Party (left-liberal) and the Taiwan Solidarity Union (progressive centrist, Taiwanese nationalist, made up mainly of Hakka and Hoklo former KMTers who failed to reform the party into a centrist, Taiwan-centred organisation) are well to the left of the Kuomintang (right-wing, formerly a fascist party, and a member of the rightist International Democratic Union, an organisation of such parties as the US' GOP, our Conservatives, Australia's Liberals, Spain's Partido Populaire (a party of "reformed" Falangists and Francoists that brainwashed the poor Spaniards into electing them twice), and France's Ralliement pour un Mouvement Populaire(Chirac's homophobic, anti-Islam, Taiwan-bashing machine)) and the People First Party (Ultra-right wing...Made up of extremely reactionary former Kuomintang members) and care far more about social programs (unless they're thinly-veiled patronage programs intended to win the support of Aboriginal chiefs, thereby having votes delivered to the KMT.)

As disgusting as war is, if any nation has weapons, it must be Taiwan, as they are threatened by a huge right-wing dictatorship with an extremely nationalistic (In the fascist sense as opposed to the empowering sense la Quiet Revolution) populace that sees Taiwan as their birthright thanks to the same sort of conditioning that fundamentalists go through.


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 27 September 2004 09:47 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Incidentally, the most popular English language pro-independence daily in Taiwan, the Taipei Times, tends towards the centre-left, publishing many editorials from The Guaradian and the Observer, being a member of Project Syndicate, and favouring editorials that condemn Bush's policies or promote social liberalism.

[ 27 September 2004: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 27 September 2004 11:27 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like the fact that is a Chinese character (Most of the Chinese shows up on my screen except that one.)
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 September 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's all propaganda. The KMT/PFP know that the "Mainlander" elite, formerly planning to reconquer the "Mainland" but now want to give up so that the right-wing government in Beijing will reward them with patronage posts for delivering Taiwan to China (Both positions are wrong, in my view. Taiwan is not theirs. It belongs to the Taiwanese and to the Aboriginals), are on the verge of losing what little power they have left in Taiwan and they want to make the nation extremely vulnerable to Chinese attacks.


It may be propoganda. Propoganda comes from the word to propogate. What is the matter with propogating the ideas that money spent on the US/China arms race would be better spent on affordable housing and social progrmas.

While there is a large amount of truth to your overall perspective, I take excepetion to the tone. You seem to be alluding to the idea that people decended from mainland Chinese whom move to Taiwan after the revolution have no right to define their own political destiny within Taiwan.

Are you saying that the Chinese should be driven into the sea?

In comparison to Israel for instance, your position is similar saying that Israelis have no right to define a political course in tandem with the indiginous Arabs. Well the fact is that the Israelis are there, and even if certain aspects of Israeli behaviour is repressive to indiginous elements, they can not be kicked out or disenfranchised simply because of the historical context.
In the same way mainland Chinese have rights to, and the exodus to Tawian can not be undone. Therefore all sides must accomodate. I have to agree with these protestors that detente, not military escalation, is the best route for Taiwan to take. I agree with the position, no matter what agenda you think lies underneath.

Are you saying that all protestors are congnizant of the sleight of hand you suggest being played here, or are many protesting out of heartflet belief in principal?

It is good to remember that even propoganda has political traction, even if it is being manipulated.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 27 September 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It's all propaganda. The KMT/PFP know that the "Mainlander" elite, formerly planning to reconquer the "Mainland" but now want to give up so that the right-wing government in Beijing will reward them with patronage posts for delivering Taiwan to China (Both positions are wrong, in my view. Taiwan is not theirs. It belongs to the Taiwanese and to the Aboriginals), are on the verge of losing what little power they have left in Taiwan and they want to make the nation extremely vulnerable to Chinese attacks.

I admit that most of what I know about Taiwan comes from this recent London Review of Books article. But if the author is right, an attack by China is highly unlikely.

quote:
As disgusting as war is, if any nation has weapons, it must be Taiwan, as they are threatened by a huge right-wing dictatorship with an extremely nationalistic (In the fascist sense as opposed to the empowering sense la Quiet Revolution) populace that sees Taiwan as their birthright thanks to the same sort of conditioning that fundamentalists go through.

I don't follow. By "huge right-wing dictatorship" do you mean China? But could it really be that the entire Chinese population sees Taiwan as their birthright? I find it hard to believe. For some reason I imagine most don't care one way or the other -- not that the Chinese Communist Party is known for taking that much notice of public opinion.

Or do you mean the KMT/PFP, who aren't even in power? But if you mean them, then are you suggesting the proposed arms build-up isn't even to defend against China, but to defend against any attempt at a coup?

[ 27 September 2004: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 September 2004 06:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
don't follow. By "huge right-wing dictatorship" do you mean China? But could it really be that the entire Chinese population sees Taiwan as their birthright? I find it hard to believe. For some reason I imagine most don't care one way or the other -- not that the Chinese Communist Party is known for taking that much notice of public opinion.

Oh I have to disagree. I am sure a huge majority of Chinese just assume that Taiwan is part of China. Survey's of Chinese on the issue of Tibet reveals the same attitude. They probably don't care, but their basic assumption (that Taiwan is part of China) probably as strong as the US assumption that California is part of the USA not Mexico.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 27 September 2004 06:22 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps you're right. But if Perry Anderson is also right, then the prospect of China actually taking military action to recapture its "rogue" province is small. The prospect of China accepting a Taiwanese declaration of independence, of course, is also small.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 28 September 2004 03:47 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

In the same way mainland Chinese have rights to, and the exodus to Tawian can not be undone. Therefore all sides must accomodate. I have to agree with these protestors that detente, not military escalation, is the best route for Taiwan to take. I agree with the position, no matter what agenda you think lies underneath.

A totalitarian and despotic right-wing government from the United States of America is overthrown by a totalitarian yet far more populist left-wing movement.

In response, members of this government and their political allies flee to Canada, hoping that they can make themselves our ruling class and use Canada as a base from which they will reconquer the "fatherland".

They succeed largely through the arms they brought in and by pitting English Canadians against French Canadians and Aboriginals, winning the support of the latter two groups. As a result, American (fictional language), the native langugae of the refugees which now form 15% of Canada's population is imposed as the language of government business and of educational instructon, while policies are enacted to suppress the development, use, and celebration of Anglo, Frnaco, and Aboriginal languages and cultures.

40 years pass, and a renegade Franco tricks the American National Party into believing that he's loyal to their movement, becoming President of Canada and Chairman of the party.

He enacts democratic reforms, and over the next 15 years, the balance of power shifts towards Anglo Canadians and Franco and Aboriginal community members who see Canadian identity, personal freedom, and social democracy as being more important than their past divisions.

Another much more conservative group, consisting of Americans, a minority Anglos, and a small majority of Francos and Aboriginals is nearly as powerful as the more progressive and freedom-minded group, but is witnessing its power rapidly erode and must take action to preserve it.

At the same time, America's government has remained as totalitarian as ever, but has become more capitalistic, more despotic, and generally far more right-wing.

In response, the group that is losing power, consisting predominantly of Americans, is pushing for "unification" of Canada and America and does not support the rise of a Canadian culture and consciousness.

Do the Americans have the right to do this?


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 September 2004 04:42 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I understand the emotive force of what you are saying, but can't agree. Imigrants who may be colonizers have rights, especially if they have spent time in a colony. On this basis the white domination of North America exists, and has a right to exist.

Certainly the political realities you have talked about are important, but all of these people are going to have to get along somehow. My information, based on the original article, even in consideration of the additional material you have presented, makes me conclude that there is nothing particularly offensive about the platform presented at the march.

I find your stressing of the racial differences between the demonstrators and those who oppose them a little disturbing, and also your description of the event as a "riot" unnecessarily hyperbolic and provocative.

I think your position, by stressing racial differences contributes to racial tension in liu of alleviating it.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 05 October 2004 09:58 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry if I'm too harsh: I just wish the Mainlanders would admit to their cultural imperialism and start gaining more respect for the cultures they suppressed for so long. I went too far in saying that English should be given a higher priority than Mandarin.

That being said, the protestors here are not calling for peace as we understand it: They're calling for the same "peace" with China that Philippe Petain and Maurice Duplessis, both Nazi sympathisers in the same way that most Pan-Blue politicians are loyal to China as opposed to Taiwan (in addition to the obvious ultra-conservatism of their politics), wanted with Hitler.


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 October 2004 02:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I see you are saying that, but not being on the inside of these things, so that I can see that, then I am really faced with some people who are making a public demostration to express a view which in generaly I support.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 October 2004 06:12 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As well, it seems that you are concerned about undue 'outside' influence from powerful nations in the internal affairs of Taiwan.

But then there is this: US warns of 'repercussions' if Taiwan fails to boost military spending

quote:
"If the budget failed to pass, or if a decision was made not to pass the budget, it will have repercussions for the United States, will have repercussions for Taiwan's friends," he said without elaborating.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 06 October 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
As well, it seems that you are concerned about undue 'outside' influence from powerful nations in the internal affairs of Taiwan.

But then there is this: US warns of 'repercussions' if Taiwan fails to boost military spending



The Bush family and the Jiang family have ties. The American right is just looking for an excuse to stab Taiwan in the back.

[ 07 October 2004: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 October 2004 05:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Bush family and the Jiang family have ties. The American right is just looking for an excuse to stab Taiwan in the back.



Whoa!


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 06 October 2004 05:53 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd have thought the idea of geopolitics being determined by personal or dynastic ties went out the window with the First World War.

(I'm aware of the Bush family's friendship with the House of Saud, but that's based on a great many tangible things, such as oil, oil, and oil).

Incidentally, NDP Newbie, your placement of the QUOTE tags makes it look as if Cueball said that about the Bush-Jiang link.

[ 06 October 2004: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 07 October 2004 02:42 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oops...I had better edit that.

But look though: Bush was pretty buddy-buddy with Hu Jintao down at the Ranch (more friendly than he's ever been to Chen), and his brother Neil received a $2,000,000 year job (with perks including Thai prostitutes) he was completely unqualified for (a consultant for a semi-conductor company with no background in or experience with either business or microcomputer electronics? Tell me that's not a load of shit.) c/o Jiang's son.

And then you have KMT and PFP members at the GOP convention.

Tell me that the Neocons and the radical right aren't waiting to hook up with China and stab Taiwan, whom they only supported during the era or right-wing nationalists vs. right-wingers msquerading as commies and the Taiwanese people had no say anyways.


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

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