" Integrity is the issue now, and Sid is a man I trust and respect, Oshawa and Ottawa will be better places with him around . "
Michael Coren

Mr. Coren make BevDesJarriles (sorry about spelling) look like the poster girl for gay rights.

Ah well it just proves what I have always known...it's power not principles (huh what that) that propels Ryan...

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
Let's hope this riding stays Tory or goes Grit

---

quote:

---

its that in this and other areas, Sid seems to lack very much in the prinicple department

---

You're not showing us any evidence. After your barely coherent scrawl, I went to do some research, where I found out that Sid Ryan was often a guest on Coren's radio show as a contrary point of view.

I don't know much about Coren's show, but even if he is some kind of distasteful arch-rightist, it doesn't stop him from giving props where they're due, and recognizing an opponent who does a very good job of upholding opposing principles.

For instance, I little difficulty in recognizing the courage of CHP candidates to stand up and be vocal in upholding the principles they believe in, especially when most of society is against them, never mind that I find most of what they have to say very objectionable.

Wonder what we would have to say if Howard Dean or Ted Kennedy included an endorsation from David Duke on his website...we would say Howard and Ted have always support civil right..doubt it...time the NDP in Canada parked its head somewhere other than its ass

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: nevermind ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RP.:

After your barely coherent scrawl,

---

sorry to hear about your inablity to read RP...always such a shame about people who reduce things to childish personal catcalls, rather than dealing with the issue...

quote:

---

sorry to hear about your inablity to read RP...

---

quote:

---

Mr. Coren make BevDesJarriles (sorry about spelling) look like the poster girl for gay rights.

---

quote:

---

Ah well it just proves what I have always known...it's power not principles (huh what that) that propels Ryan...

---

or

quote:

---

its that in this and other areas, Sid seems to lack very much in the prinicple department

---

I will promptly remove my head from my ass and respond in the only responsible, intelligent way:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
It was actually RP. who made the literacy aspersions here, Scott, and nevermind reacted defensively, understandably...

---

I think there is a world of difference between

quote:

---

After your barely coherent scrawl

---

and

quote:

---

sorry to hear about your inablity to read RP

---

And then there is Tory Sharon Young...his PR person on the CUPE payroll, whom he personally hire (who has a wonderful labor not friendly resume...ea to Tory mayor...ea to Mike Harris cabinet minister Jerry Oullette, well know lobbyist for gun nuts in Canada, etc...)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
I agree that spelling flames are generally lame, and I wouldn't have said anything if nevermind hadn't accused RP of being illiterate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
I do my research...instead of making silly attacks on the messenger, do your homework

---

No, it's not like that. When you make accusations you have to back them up. You're asking us to condemn a guy on your say-so. The onus is not on us to disprove what you're saying. People who make scurrilous accusations are trolls that don't deserve civil discourse.

FWIW I wasn't referring to spelling mistakes, typos, or grammar, but having true difficulty in discerning what you were saying.

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: RP. ]

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: CHCMD ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thrasymachus:
We have now entered a bizarre realm of the politically correct. Where you are no longer judged solely by your own actions and words but also by the actions and words of all of those who would possibly support you.

---

I would suspect he did it because Oshawa is a close race, it is a growing riding..and the new areas are upper middle class and likely to vote Tory and Liberal....I would suggest the Ryan spin doctors are hoping to get a few of the moral majoriry (anti abortion, anti gay) type votes...of which there a more than a few in Oshawa

quote:

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Originally posted by nevermind:
I welcome folks who can prove me wrong

---

Prove what wrong? Other than the fact that the endorsement exists, all you've given us is your own pure speculation and the suggestion that Sid Ryan should be considered guilty by association. I'll give it the attention it deserves.

quote:

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Originally posted by RP.:

No, it's not like that. When you make accusations you have to back them up. You're asking us to condemn a guy on your say-so. .

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: RP. ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
I win..

---

Now the NDP can go back...put it's head where its been since Ed Broadbent quit as leader, Bob Rae was elected Premier....

Martin can we a Liberal majority and rule like Tories or Harper can win a Tory minority and try not to govern Canada like its Texas....

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Um. Alarm bells. Somewhere up there, nevermind comes very close to equating Michael Coren with David Duke.

I think maybe something should be done about that.

---

Do whatever it takes to avoid the issue...as long as the issue involves one of the favored boys or girls...

Are you telling me you guys wouldn't be all over a Grit that had an endorsation from Coren

quote:

---

Originally posted by skdadl:
Um. Alarm bells. Somewhere up there, nevermind comes very close to equating Michael Coren with David Duke.

I think maybe something should be done about that.

---

Do whatever it takes to avoid the issue...as long as the issue involves one of the favored boys or girls...

Are you telling me you guys wouldn't be all over a Grit that had an endorsation from Coren

quote:

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Originally posted by nevermind:
With all due repsect it was the Ryan folks who put the Coren endorsation on the website...so in fact they gave you the proof...and I believe someone actually provide a link to the Ryan website..

---

Yes, I provided the link, you're welcome. Now, for those of us unfamiliar with Michael Coren, please enlighten us as to why he's so awful. The way you do this is to take excerpts from things you've read somewhere before, and provide links to the statements, if possible.

skdadl, a babbler whose judgment I trust, obviously thinks he's less nasty than you do, so maybe the endorsement isn't so outrageous.

You should also do this for all the other reasons you find Ryan to be so reprehensible, IF you really want this to be a serious conversation and not just a piss-poor attempt to smear a guy who has a better than even chance of winning a seat in Ottawa for the NDP.

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: RP. ]

to give the man his due I think he is a truly independent thinker, and towes no party line...

I admire his stand on how our greed is the biggest enemy of the third world..I also think that unlike some silver spoon socialists he actually remembers what it is like growing up in a working class family..and probably has more empathy for the working class than do many New Democrats...

However I find his social values scary...they are a type of Stockwell Day Geroge Bush, Focus on the Family mentality...I defend his rights to have those views..as I do any group that does not promote hate...

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
However I find his social values scary...they are a type of Stockwell Day Geroge Bush, Focus on the Family mentality...I defend his rights to have those views..as I do any group that does not promote hate...

But I find them backward and repugent and would never personally want his endorsation..and I would hope any NDP or Liberal would feel the same way

---

..OK now give us examples of what you mean (you know, quotes, sources, links), and a plausible explanation of how Coren's views should extend to our perception of Sid Ryan.

As for the rest, you pretty much admit that Coren's a decent guy, so why the smear attempt on Ryan?

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: RP. ]

quote:

---

..OK now give us examples of what you mean (you know, quotes, sources, links), and a plausible explanation of how Coren's views should extend to our perception of Sid Ryan.

---

quote:

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Found a very strange endorsation of Oshawa NDP Sid Ryan on his website
. . .

Let's hope this riding stays Tory or goes Grit

---

This is not an NDP site but there are a lot of NDP supporters here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:

I read Coren for years and his attitude towards gays is medieval at best.

---

Yup. I went to a "town hall" debate with andrean, where Coren was on the anti-ssm side, and he was pretty homophobic if you ask me.

quote:

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it just proves what I have always known

---

quote:

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Originally posted by BCastro:
This is not an NDP site but there are a lot of NDP supporters here.

This comment seems like an attempt at trolling/baiting?

---

People from other parties are allowed to post on babble. They're also allowed to post their desire to see someone from their party win a riding. And you are allowed to debate them and tell them why you disagree with them. As you correctly state, this is not an NDP web site.

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

He is a convert to Catholicism, a working-class autodidact who has become at one and the same time tremendously knowledgeable about some things and yet often over-the-top sentimental as both a populist and a Christian.

However, a claim was made above that people here were only giving him a pass because the endorsement was for someone we like.

I'd agree with Skdadl that Coren is no hypocrite. I have some sneaking doubts about his working class credentials, though, as well as his autodidactism.

That's because he seems to have begun writing and publishing biographies of British writers at a very early age; it's a difficult thing to be a high school dropout, or even graduate, and yet convince a publisher that you should write a bio of G.K. Chesterton, for example.

quote:

---

Integrity is the issue now, and Sid is a man I trust and respect, Oshawa and Ottawa will be better places with him around

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeff house:
Is there any actual information as to his working class roots, though?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeff house:
It's just fine that Ryan is endorsed by Coren; it certainly doesn't imply that Ryan is ALSO endorsing Coren.

---

Nobody claimed that Ryan was endorsing Coren. What I think is worth criticism is that Ryan has put Coren's endorsement on his web site. Of course no one can do anything about it if Coren endorses them. But you have full control over whether you brag about that endorsement.

I wouldn't brag about an endorsement from a homophobe who publicly advocates for the second-class status of gays and lesbians. I think it's okay to be critical of someone who does brag about such an endorsement.

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

And Skdadl says he is an autodidact.

So, I still don't understand exactly how he began writing biographies for publication in his late twenties.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TonyToo:
Schreyer made a nasty comment 20 years ago that he's disavowed

---

Yes indeed Coren is right-wing on any issue involving human sexuality and the role of the church in society...he's a practicing Catholic...and a conservative one at that.

However on "bread and butter" issues, he's moderately progressive. Alot of Catholics are like that.

But for whatever reasons, his personal friendship with Sid given that he's been a "regular" on his show, his views on "bread and butter" issues...who knows...he's decided to endorse Sid.

quote:

---

Originally posted by josh:
Assuming the comparison is valid, I wouldn't want his endorsement. But if he said something like, "although we disagree, he's a man of integrity," I'd could see using it to my advantage.

---

Come on. Really? If a segregationist said, "Hey, that josh - sure, we disagree about a few things, but he's a real man of integrity, and he's just the kind of guy New Jersey needs to have around," you'd put that up on your campaign web site? You think that would be to your advantage?

I don't know about anyone else, but I have a visceral reaction whenever I see anything by Coren, and it's coloured by his very public and militant homophobia. And I'm not even queer. I know that not everyone is as sensitive to homophobia as queer people, or some of the more lefty straights like me. But I'll tell you, I have the same reaction that you might have if you saw a candidate you were thinking about supporting being endorsed by a segregationist. And that's all the more reason for those of us who have that visceral reaction to speak up and criticize progressive candidates who might not realize just what kind of a reaction it might cause in their potential supporters. (Not that it matters what I think about Sid Ryan since I don't live in his riding anyhow. I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, I just think it's a mistake to put up endorsements by phobes.)

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

---

So, I still don't understand exactly how he began writing biographies for publication in his late twenties.

Usually, that requires schooling, and credentials.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
So, he's saying he's never liked the guy, and now that he sees a homophobe endorsing him, he considers that proof that he was right.

---

I think you proved my point. When you start the conversation with a sneer and a vague accusation with no substance, you get the kind of conversation that occurred at the top of the thread. This conversation has gotten more interesting because nevermind went away and you took over arguing his position. You stuck to the issue without the innuendo.

quote:

---

Come on. Really? If a segregationist said, "Hey, that josh - sure, we disagree about a few things, but he's a real man of integrity, and he's just the kind of guy New Jersey needs to have around," you'd put that up on your campaign web site? You think that would be to your advantage?

---

Some of the most progressive U.S. domestic social policy was implemented by LBJ...including the Voting Rights Act and the War on Poverty. To get elected president he needed the support of racist southern Dixiecrats.

Politics can be really weird.

Its a hard lesson I learned in the labour movement in "shop floor" politics. All kinds of folks with very right-wing views on things will respect you and support you simply because they think you're the best person to take on the boss.

It is also worth noting that Michael Coren endorsed Sid in the last election, so this is nothing new. That endorsement was both unsolicited and a surprise. I had occasion to ask Sid about Coren once, and without going into the details of a private conversation, I can say that Sid regarded Michael with a certain amused collegeal respect.

My own feelings obout Coren is that he is a social conservative, but all over the map on other issues. He's a total loose cannon. I think he's a terrible interviewer because he talkes all over people, but he can be fun to watch. Also he used to write for Frank magazine if that tells you anything.

quote:

---

Sharon is a common first name...

---

Common? I think it's quite aristocratic, myself.

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: Sharon ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by radiorahim:
Absolutely no one (other than maybe a Liberal troll) can question that.

But for whatever reasons, his personal friendship with Sid given that he's been a "regular" on his show, his views on "bread and butter" issues...who knows...he's decided to endorse Sid.

;.

---

How dare you call me a Liberal troll...I am 46 years old, was active in the NDP in my youth and have never voted anything but NDP...(that may change this time..

Oh and is Sid's friendship with Coren .. something like some of my best friends are black (or gay)

quote:

---

Originally posted by pogge:

I think you proved my point. When you start the conversation with a sneer and a vague accusation with no substance, you get the kind of conversation that occurred at the top of the thread. This conversation has gotten more interesting because nevermind went away and you took over arguing his position. You stuck to the issue without the innuendo.

I love it when a plan comes together.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldgoat:
This will be my third campaign working for Sid. I've spent time knocking on doors with him as well as chatting with him at a few party functions. I find him to be personable, sincere, and a natural fighter for the oppressed. He's combatative as hell when he needs to be, and doesn't mind stepping on toes that deserve a stepping, but that's a good thing. I have to admit I had originally found him a bit abrasive in the media, and was pleasantly surprised to find I quite liked him in person.

It is also worth noting that Michael Coren endorsed Sid in the last election, so this is nothing new. That endorsement was both unsolicited and a surprise. I had occasion to ask Sid about Coren once, and without going into the details of a private conversation, I can say that Sid regarded Michael with a certain amused collegeal respect.

My own feelings obout Coren is that he is a social conservative, but all over the map on other issues. He's a total loose cannon. I think he's a terrible interviewer because he talkes all over people, but he can be fun to watch. Also he used to write for Frank magazine if that tells you anything.

Nevermind, I don't know where you get your information. Even in the wacky world of Oshawa municipal politics I don't know how you could cast Nancy Diamond as a Tory. And as for Sharon, if were are thinking of the same person you're nuts. However, Sharon is a common first name, and I'll have to ask her if she's Sharon Young.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
and given the hullaboo in the past on this site of anyone even midly questioning SSM I would say factuallyh that many of you are stuck in a hypocritical...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pogge:

There it is again. That undeniable feeling that your purpose all along was to sneer at the whole community unless everyone immediately fell into lockstep behind you.

---

quote:

---

CUPE has probably the most active LGBT committee of any union in Canada...and Sid has been played a leadership role at the bargaining table for LGBT workers. Absolutely no one (other than maybe a Liberal troll) can question that.

---

That's the "whole" statement. Are you questioning Sid Ryan's committment to LGBT rights?

If so, maybe I'm wrong about the "Liberal troll" thing. Maybe I should have said Liberal trolls and left-sectarians.

You'll never build a movement if the only folks who can join are folks who are as "pure" as you are.

Sid, I'm sorry buddy, you may be one of the more progressive labour leaders in the country (Buzz Hargrove anyone) but we have to draw, quarter and discredit you for being endorsed by someone who the babbler-Trots club disagrees with.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:

sorry I left, I had to do my Xmas shopping...but go ahead...shoot the messenger...don't want to air any of the left's dirty laundry in an election do we...

---

Your earlier post has a similar inconsistency. Yes, some people have suggested elsewhere that Ed Schreyer's comments are sufficient for them to withhold their support of him. And some people here are saying Coren's support of Ryan isn't sufficient to justify not voting for him. But who's putting forward these two debatably contradictory arguments? Is it the same group of people? Or does this simply demonstrate that there's a range of opinions here, rather than the groupthink you seem to be suggesting?

quote:

---

Originally posted by TonyToo:
So in two ridings where the NDP has some hope, Selkirk-Interlake and Oshawa, we have
babblers rooting for the Liberals or Cons. Selkirk-Interlake because Schreyer made a nasty comment 20 years ago that he's disavowed, and now Sid Ryan because a bigot said he has integrity.

Priceless.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TonyToo:
There you have it then.

Sid, I'm sorry buddy, you may be one of the more progressive labour leaders in the country (Buzz Hargrove anyone) but we have to draw, quarter and discredit you for being endorsed by someone who the babbler-Trots club disagrees with.

What a fucking farce.

---

[Edited to add: I may have misunderstood what you were saying in your first post, although my point still stands about the second post. I understood you to be saying that people were "rooting for the Liberals and Conservatives" in S-I but also "rooting for" Sid Ryan in Oshawa. I'm guessing now that you probably meant "rooting for the Liberals and Conservatives" in both ridings. But even if that's what you're saying, I still don't see that there's any sort of consensus to this effect.]

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: obscurantist ]

Well, I found the exercise got boring reeeally quick, so I won't claim to have the definitive answers, but feel free to pick it up if you like.

I imagine Ryan (or some lackey, let's get real) sez to himself, put this right wing guy's endorsement on the campaign and we'll get some other right wing guys to vote for us. Solid electoral reasoning as far as it goes, to the extent that 'electoral reasoning' is not an oxymoron...

But yeah, it kind of reeks.

And the tenor of this conversation indicates that putting him on the web site DOES amount to 'Ryan endorsing Coren' - suddenly the whole Coren Discourse has morphed, you know? Cagily, true, but I don't see much soul searching about aligning with this weenie.

But Nevermind, Nevermind, Nevermind...as a professed NDP voter you could perhaps have snuffed the flame if you didn't lead with this:

quote:

---

Let's hope this riding stays Tory or goes Grit

---

And I really want to know how this eventuality would be worthy of one's hopes even if Ryan is One Of Them...

btw an unnamed colleague of mine used to do a weekly he-said she-said with 'im but quit after a year because he was 'an asshole' only you didn't hear it from me

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: natas ]

[ 22 December 2005: Message edited by: natas ]

quote:

---

we have
babblers rooting for the Liberals or Cons.

---

But anyone can register for rabble, it's not as if we can impose party discipline.

You are right that some babblers are too sectarian. They don't understand that getting elected is not such a snap, and may require compromises. Or, they may shoot at NDP candidates because they belong to the Communist Party, or the Green Party, or some other party.

And others are too conservative. They should be forced to pay big money to post on babble.

But many others are Just Right. They (we!) understand that some compromises are necessary, but others are rotten sell-outs of principle. They (we!) know precisely which are which.

quote:

---

What a fucking farce.

---

And while we know Coren is not exactly gay friendly (now that he is Sid's buddy we have all sorts of aplogists...wonder what hhey would say if Coren suddenly attacked Svend)...

Now we are being told by one poster that Colin Carrie, Sid's Tory opponent is racist...

(And I am accused of making broad unfounded statments...)

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
Now we are being told by one poster that Colin Carrie, Sid's Tory opponent is racist...

(And I am accused of making broad unfounded statments...)

Man I hope this site doesn't represent the typical lefty in Canada...

---

Here on babble there are many people who are currently slugging their guts out for their NDP candidate. A poster clicks on and calls for the defeat of one of them who has more chance than most.

And why does the poster do this? Not because the candidate has taken some untenable stand on SSM or Health care. The reason is that the person who wrote this candidate's pamphlet has included an endorsement from a semi-celebrity who is known for his views which oppose the NDP. Therefore his endorsement of Ryan's integrity may be more convincing to the uncommitted voter.

It's not like there is any evidence that the views of the Grit or Tory are as progressive as Ryan's, or even any better than Coren's.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
my final point...I got Mr. Ryan's dirty little secrets exposed.

---

quote:

---

you say Diamond's hasn't been a Tory...

---

quote:

---

But the JR caucus always needs another voice, so please join. No fees required.

---

quote:

---

Let's hope this riding stays Tory or goes Grit

---

I agree with nevermind on this one. Michael Coren is a sell out for endorsing Sid Ryan.

Some people keep ignoring a fact - as in fact - that radiorahim introduced some distance back in this thread: Coren's endorsement of Ryan dates back to the last election and has apparently been up on his website since then.

nevermind, you seem to be arguing that everyone - as in 100 per cent of the people - who supports particular policies or political ideals will argue them the same way or work for them the same way, and yet the evidence is all about you that that simply is not true. It's not true on babble, and it's not true in 3D life. Seriously, my eyes are crossed from trying to follow your logic, since it is so clearly fantastical.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dourque:
homosexuals sex marriage

---

[ 23 December 2005: Message edited by: dourque ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skdadl:
Odd for a babbler to misspell his own name, eh?

Some people keep ignoring a fact - as in fact - that radiorahim introduced some distance back in this thread: Coren's endorsement of Ryan dates back to the last election and has apparently been up on his website since then.

.

---

The factual mistake is yours...Ryan's website was down for construction for the longest time...in fact even for the first couple of weeks of the election...(even though the Grit and Tory in the riding had active websites)...I check the webiste often and Coren and Tory ex Mayor and all round Oshawa loser Nancy Diamonds endorsation only appeared recently...

There is a lot more to this story than has been explained in this thread....those in the know in the murky world of Oshawa politics understand...and I think I can safely say that Sid will keep his perfect record of never having won anything but a union election...

quote:

---

Originally posted by dourque:
I also want to point

---

that you're a bigoted piece of shit too stupid to keep your disgusting opinions to yourself after being clearly (and politely, for me) told they would lead to your banning.

How proud you must be of yourself. You managed to get two whole posts in to let us know the amazing news that there are some people in the world like you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
There is a lot more to this story than has been explained in this thread...

---

What's wrong with having my opinion? My candidate Mr. Jim Flarety is against all of these too and he is currently elected.

[ 23 December 2005: Message edited by: dourque ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dourque:
What's wrong with having my opinion?

---

You can have whatever ignorant, bigoted opinions you like.

But you can't express them here. As I said after your first post:

This board believes in equality, including the right to marry. If you believe that some people are not entitled to that right, you will find your stay here short and unpleasant.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dourque:
I was only saying that like the first person I want the Liberals of the PCs to get in because I don't agree with the NDPs who want to legalize abortion and dope and euthanasia and suicide and homosexual sex marriage!!

What's wrong with having my opinion? My candidate Mr. Jim Flarety is against all of these too and he is currently elected.

[ 23 December 2005: Message edited by: dourque ]

---

You have the right to your opinion...I stongly disagree with it...you might want to look at Mr. Flaherty's moral standard closely however, he advocated putting people in jail for the crime of homelessness...as a lawyer he got it right that homelessness is a crime,it's just that society is the perp and the homeless are the victims...

BTW he is not elected to anything now...he has resigned his seat in the legislature (probably much to the relief of the more or less sane John Tory) and hopefully the voters of Whitby-Oshawa let length his retirement indefinetely

[ 23 December 2005: Message edited by: nevermind ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skdadl:
Is dourque Rob Anders? And who is Rob Anders?

---

[ 23 December 2005: Message edited by: dourque ]

[ 23 December 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]

quote:

---

want the Liberals of the PCs

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldgoat:
Hey audra, aren't you supposed to be on vacation??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by nevermind:
However I find his social values scary...they are a type of Stockwell Day Geroge Bush, Focus on the Family mentality...I defend his rights to have those views..as I do any group that does not promote hate...

But I find them backward and repugent and would never personally want his endorsation..and I would hope any NDP or Liberal would feel the same way

---

[ 24 December 2005: Message edited by: TCD ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjo:
I thought Dourque was writting sarcastically, and really in favour of Ryan.

---

Maybe Dourque was a regular poster, erased her babble cookie, made up this temporary, fake nickname, and then posted in such a way as to bring most credit to Ryan.

A lot of us non-Christmas people don't have much to do this time of year.

In any event, what's gone is gone.
(edited because I initially referred to the poster as Bourque)

[ 24 December 2005: Message edited by: Banjo ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TCD:

When the Liberals stop signing the nomination forms for this anti-choice homophobe give me a call. In the meantime I know where Sid Ryan stands.

[ 24 December 2005: Message edited by: TCD ]

---