quote:

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According to documents obtained by Truthout, an investigation by the Army
Inspector General into Goldman's claims of anti-Semitism shows that in May
2001, Captain Robert Nay, a Christian chaplain at the Fort Stewart Army
base, hung Nazi uniforms and swastikas on the wall of the officers' club at
Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia, during a May 23, 2001 interfaith
prayer breakfast Goldman was ordered to attend.

In an interview, Goldman said seeing the Nazi uniforms did not entirely
surprise him. A month earlier, Nay had informed Goldman that he thought it
would be "funny" if he dressed up soldiers in the Nazi uniforms on Holocaust
Memorial Day, a time when the world memorializes the six million Jews who
were slaughtered by the Nazis during World War II.

---

Rabbi Jeffrey Goldman, 35, "a native of Toronto, said the Army listed him as a deserter in
retaliation for speaking out about other chaplains' anti- Semitic behavior
at Fort Stewart. Goldman contends that he legally resigned from his stint as
an Army chaplain in January 2002 when his transfer requests were rebuffed."

First of all, what is a Canadian Jew doing enlisting in the U.S. military?

My ancestors did everything, including chopping off their own fingers, to avoid being drafted by the Tsar's armies. What kind of Jew is this Goldman, who doesn't know the first thing about our anti-militarist traditions?

Second, why would he be surprised at racism, anti-Semitism, Nazi fetishism, South vs. North, and all the other poisonous shit that exists in that evil organization? Was he born yesterday?

Third, why didn't he stay and fight? A quitter!

I'm not impressed. Anyway, there is apparently more than one side to this story.

ETA: Link fixed, thanks Agent 204.

[ 19 August 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Weinstein said he expected the Army’s denials to Goldman’s claims, so he demanded that the rabbi take a lie detector test to measure the validity of his allegations of anti-Semitism. The administrator of the test, John McClinton, a forensic polygrapher and former Canadian military intelligence officer, said Goldman scored a “+21” in response to questions about claims of anti-Semitism at Fort Stewart, which McClinton says suggests Goldman is “being more than truthful.”

---

A lie detector test to prove that someone else was being "anti-Semitic"! And the scientific verdict is: "more than truthful"!

Sorry N.Beltov, I don't mean to detract from the point that the U.S. is a hornets' nest of racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, and all the rest - but I just can't find it within myself to sympathize with "Rabbi" Jeffrey Goldman of Toronto who decided he wanted to join the U.S. military!

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
You know, N.Beltov, with all due respect, I find this story fishy in the extreme.

First of all, what is a Canadian Jew doing enlisting in the U.S. military?

My ancestors did everything, including chopping off their own fingers, to avoid being drafted by the Tsar's armies. What kind of Jew is this Goldman, who doesn't know the first thing about our anti-militarist traditions?

Second, why would he be surprised at racism, anti-Semitism, Nazi fetishism, South vs. North, and all the other poisonous shit that exists in that evil organization? Was he born yesterday?

Third, why didn't he stay and fight? A quitter!

I'm not impressed. Anyway, there is apparently more than one side to this story.

ETA: Link fixed, thanks Agent 204.

[ 19 August 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

---

A lot of Canadians enlist in foreign armies. I know of at least three people who have gone to the Israeli army for example. One event went right after his Bachelor of Science in Psych. He wanted an adventure.

This article http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0352,mondo2,49755,6.html , has some information. Apparently there's active recruiting on Canadian native reserves. Some 37, 000 non-Americans are in the US armed forces. There's also the claim here http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/vietnam_war.htm that around 10, 000 Canadians enlisted to help in the Vietnam war. It's a well-known fact many Canadians went though I have a hard time finding reliable numbers. This webstie estimates 30, 000 to 40, 000 Canadians. Forty years before that, a great many Canadians went to volunteer in Spain. And eighty years before that one, a great many Canadians volunteered in the United States civil war.

I'm not condoning the act. I'm just surprised that you find Canadians enlisting in foreign armies to be some kooky exotic idea. It's in fact a widespread idea. I recall, around age 14, when I wanted to be an Astronaut, I thought I'd join the United States Air Force as I'd have a better chance both of survival (no seakings) and of making it into space. Some might enlist because they want a US citzenship, or they approve of the WOT, like Pat Tillman.

***

quote:

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
I'm just surprised that you find Canadians enlisting in foreign armies to be some kooky exotic idea.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

I never said anything of the sort. I was talking about the U.S. military. I grew up and went to school with people that gave up home and family to avoid fighting in their foreign wars. The notion that a Canadian Jew would go enlist there makes me ill.

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Well I grew up in a very different Canadian Jewish environment. Sometimes if Israel was attacked there would be an assembly and some Rabbi would give an angry spiel. A couple times we were encouraged to go to assemblies where brilliant and thoughtful luminaries like Liberal MP Irwin Cotler and "Rabbi" Reuben Poupko would give speeches. Israel was very glorified in this environment in a matter of facts way. Sometimes IDF soldiers were flown in and spoke to everyone. Favourability to the United States is very likely to follow from pro-Israel information in the current global climate. It was the type of parochial school for which you've been singing praises in the Ontario catholic schools thread (sarcasm). Both within Fortress Orthodox and in interactions with Jewish kids from other schools, I never got the sense pacificism was a very widespread idea.
I'm wondering what kind of Canadian Jewish environment you grew up in.

But most of all, in the environment you grew up in, if my estimate of your age is remotely correct, you must have heard of Canadians enlisting in Vietnam? And surely, some of them were Jewish?

[ 19 August 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

quote:

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:

Both within Fortress Orthodox and in interactions with Jewish kids from other schools, I never got the sense pacificism was a very widespread idea.
I'm wondering what kind of Canadian Jewish environment you grew up in.

---

I am not a pacifist - what gave you that impression? I grew up in an Orthodox household and a tradition that Jews do not participate in militarism, in unjust wars, in racism, in aggression. At the same time, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was worshipped in my home - as was the war by the Allies to destroy Nazism and fascism, in which both my parents participated in different ways.

But to join an army for the thrill? Not for Jews.

quote:

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But most of all, in the environment you grew up in, if my estimate of your age is remotely correct, you must have heard of Canadians enlisting in Vietnam? And surely, some of them were Jewish?

---

I was a teenager during the thick of the Vietnam war. I never met a single Canadian, of any religious background, nor even knew the name of one in the neighbourhood or community, who enlisted in the U.S. military. I did, however, meet significant numbers of draft evaders and even two deserters.

A Canadian Jew joining the U.S. army to go fight in Vietnam? What history books have you been smoking? And what kind of Jewish background do you come from?

ETA: Sorry, if you haven't gleaned from my other posts, I attended Jewish day school all through Pre-K - 12. And yes, it was Zionist and pro-Israeli, but (a) Israel was different then (pre-Occupation); and (b) the notion that the U.S. was a "friend of the Jews" had not yet risen from the cesspool!

[ 19 August 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

I am not a pacifist - what gave you that impression?

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The threads dealing with that UN-sanctioned mission in Afghanistan.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

But to join an army for the thrill? Not for Jews.

---

Now things can change in just a single generation.

quote:

---

Originally posted by unionist:

I was a teenager during the thick of the Vietnam war. I never met a single Canadian, of any religious background, nor even knew the name of one in the neighbourhood or community, who enlisted in the U.S. military. I did, however, meet significant numbers of draft evaders and even two deserters.

A Canadian Jew joining the U.S. army to go fight in Vietnam? What history books have you been smoking? And what kind of Jewish background do you come from?

ETA: Sorry, if you haven't gleaned from my other posts, I attended Jewish day school all through Pre-K - 12. And yes, it was Zionist and pro-Israeli, but (a) Israel was different then (pre-Occupation); and (b) the notion that the U.S. was a "friend of the Jews" had not yet risen from the cesspool!

[ 19 August 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]

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It seems there were many tens of thousands of Canadians who enlisted, which should statistically translate as a few hundred Canadian Jews.

[ 19 August 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

quote:

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:

It seems there were many tens of thousands of Canadians who enlisted, which should statistically translate as a few hundred Canadian Jews.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

How very clever you are. I will never be your kind of Jew.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
The kind that thinks Reuben Poupko is a "brilliant luminary".

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I was being sarcastic.

I actually can't stand the man. I've listened to his idiotic speeches twice and the inflammatory tone turned me off. I have not been to an Israel rally since one where he shouted his crap, from I think in 2002.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
The kind that makes no distinction between the slaughter of the Vietnamese people and the struggle of the Spanish Republic against Franco and fascism. That kind.

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I didn't feel the need to make the distinction. People already know.

***

As for Afghanistan, I guess you're 1 out of 3. I believe it to be a UN Sanctioned mission.

***

And the only one of those three things which is remotely related to my Jhewishness are my thoughts on Poupko.

[ 19 August 2007: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
And you really owe it to yourself to start questioning what is going on in Afghanistan. The saviours aren't coming from outside.

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We are off-topic, but whatever. Whenever someone first starts paying attention to the world in decent detail, they'll notice some injustices, and in better cases wonder how these might be removed.

You came of age in the era of nationalist liberation and civil rights struggles. Cuba, Algeria, African Americans, Iran, Vietnam, China, Quebec, India, women... all examples of minorities or people coming together under common cause to begin to undue the damage of a long history of oppression and exploitation. That is the model you saw work very well, people from within the socioeconomically oppressed community taking their future into their own hands, and rising up in a communal manner to make it better by means such as psychological pressure and only occasionally violence.