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» babble   » walking the talk   » aboriginal issues and culture   » Question: Can the FN case be advanced without a "Brant" (i.e.) going for PM?

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Author Topic: Question: Can the FN case be advanced without a "Brant" (i.e.) going for PM?
George Victor
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posted 06 November 2008 12:03 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The African American people have just won a new place in American society. It took someone who, years ago, bought into the idea that where there is not a helluva lot of equality of opportunity, you had better see what the old idea of meritocracy could be made to mean.

There is something Abe Lincolnish about his route. And, of course, he won't be asked to immediately defend the nation against dismemberment. But he has a very clear idea of what that nation means - for the vast majority.

Question. Can the FN case in Canada be advanced by political participation, even though the route to national leadership is an altogether different one. An FN politician, another Harper,as I recall, skewered a national attempt at accord with Quebec some moons ago, pointing to at least a powerful potential force - albeit negatively exercised, in that case.

It seems to me that a participatiory route could be helpful as hell in bringing about reforms - starting with new treaty provisions that provide a sound financial base for building new schools and medical facilities and infrastructure generally.

Isn't that route going to be necessary, in fact, to convince Canadians, as president-elect Barack Hussein Obama is continuing to convince more Americans, that change is possible?

I advance these questions in the continuing hope of developing a dialogue, something to overcome the quiet that sits over the FN case in Canada almost in contradiction to the litany of racist accounts against the European's 500-year assault continues to build.

The quiet is based on ignorance, as babblers have come to see, recently. And if the unread could be forced to read, for instance, Ronald Wright's What is America (he's the author of an earlier CBC Massey Lecture series, A short History of Progress), more progress could be made by the FN people.

And I believe that just as correspondence across cultural lines was necessary for building the African American's case, it will be critical to a people who are still trying just to get a hearing.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 November 2008 12:21 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By "Brant" you mean Sean Brant?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 06 November 2008 12:28 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He came immediately to mind, cue. I admire him. And there are lots others, of course.

Do you think I'm being silly in trying to develop some correspondence on this subject around here?

Your thoughts?


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 November 2008 12:33 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think Sean Brant is the guy you are looking for.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 06 November 2008 12:41 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, cue, he's not "the" guy. Look for the " i. e. " in my post. I don't want to hang up things on a name.

The late Jake Tootoosis, the FN lawyer who was responsible for publishing "Treaty Implementation: Fulfulling the Covenant (2007)(see the obit I posted the other day) is "the type"...but the Brants are getting a point across too.

Anyway, your thoughts on a general discussion - while hoping for lots of input from all over the map.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 November 2008 12:47 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am not much into electoral politics. Nor am I sure that posing these question in terms of getting the right POC into the right position is the best approach. Rather I would think of it more as looking at ways to developing organizational linkages that allow for emergenece of FN leaders generally, as opposed to "targetting".
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 06 November 2008 12:57 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And what do they do when they "emerge"?

Guess I'm arguing for a political role valid for the majority "out there" in the political world (and I don't understand any other approach). At least, for anyone who, as 2 ponies hinted in his post the other day, the endless unfocused talk gets a bit much.


quote:

I don’t think the piece has done much to encourage discussion about the issue she was probably trying to get at; that there’s probably too much time spent discussing our FN cultures & not enough time trying to figure out how we’re going to get out of the mess we’re currently in. It’s largely considered heinous & hateful to suggest that we allocate resources to teach science, math & grammar in our FN communities than we do to teach Cree, or about Sweat Lodges & religious practices & traditional medicinal treatments. I never learned a single kilobyte of information about Cree culture in 12 years of school, but learned plenty from my mother, grandparents, aunts & uncles, Elders – all in an informal setting. But now there’s a large cultural industry developing & a significant number of FN people (at least in my part of the country) believe without question that the solution to our problems is to force every FN kid to learn an FN language & culture in school. It’s basically not even open to debate. In my view, there is a significant “drift” towards the establishment of theocracies in several FN communities; at least 75% of the meetings I go to in FN communities start off with a prayer I take offense to this type of practice because I like to decide when & how I pray; with a braid of Sweetgrass in the privacy of my home – but sometimes I’m forced to hear a prayer to Jesus (from a FN person), other times a prayer to the Creator, the point is I’m basically forced. But is this open to discussion? No. And to suggest any other practice often results in being labelled with some pejorative term. There isn’t enough debate in our communities by & large; there isn’t enough discussion on how we’re going to allocate limited resources in an effort to ensure that youth have a chance at succeeding in this rapidly changing world, for instance. There’s a significant tendency for groupthink, and disagreements are largely solved by way of finger-pointing & allegations- at least in my experience as a 32 year old FN person with 14 years working in FN communities & organizations.




I was hoping to hear more from him ...and something from others in the FN community.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 November 2008 01:06 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I am not sure it is clear that the key demand of FN people is enfranchisement within the system, or that this idea is universally shared. It seems to me that there is also a quantity of flat out opposition to Canada per se, especially among activists. I think being enfranchised as Americans of equal standing had been primary to the struggle of black Americans in a way that it is not so for FN people.

African-American were enslaved and robbed of their entire historical legacy and made nationless, in a greater white paradigm. FN peoples relationship to the colonial construct is somewhat different, I think. Though there are obvious similarities too.

Can't say for sure. It's mostly a feeling.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 06 November 2008 01:11 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Well, I am not sure it is clear that the key demand of FN people is enfranchisement within the system. It seems to me that there is also a quantity of flat out opposition to Canada per se, especially among activists. I think being enfranchised as Americans of equal standing had been primary to the struggle of black Americans in a way that it is not so for FN people. Though there is definetly that too.
African-American were enslaved and robbed of their entire historical legacy and made nationless, in a greater white paradigm. FN peoples relationship to the colonial construct is somewhat different, I think.

Can't say for sure. It's mostly a feeling.



I'm also not sure. And from 2 ponies' post, perhaps there are marked divisions in the FN community itself on those very points.

Hence my "provocative" post inviting discussion.

-------------------------------------

Gotta hit the sack now. Just needed to divest the old head of the above thoughts to be able to sleep.

Will do this again.


Glad we could keep this an open question...

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 06 November 2008 01:20 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
The African American people have just won a new place in American society. It took someone who, years ago, bought into the idea that where there is not a helluva lot of equality of opportunity, you had better see what the old idea of meritocracy could be made to mean.

I think Obama might be a good man in the wrong party. Whether black or white or black and white cats, they're all cats. Obama won't be able to end their cravings for barbequed mice or Tom catting it around the world in general. Jesus Christ himself couldn't change the appetites of a rich and powerful cat-ocracy. The next four years will be more of the same catastrophe but perhaps a slightly more humane feeding frenzy.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 06 November 2008 03:19 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Try and keep it to the Canadian situation and the FN please.
From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
TVParkdale
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posted 06 November 2008 07:33 AM      Profile for TVParkdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well, I am not sure it is clear that the key demand of FN people is enfranchisement within the system, or that this idea is universally shared. It seems to me that there is also a quantity of flat out opposition to Canada per se, especially among activists. I think being enfranchised as Americans of equal standing had been primary to the struggle of black Americans in a way that it is not so for FN people.

African-American were enslaved and robbed of their entire historical legacy and made nationless, in a greater white paradigm. FN peoples relationship to the colonial construct is somewhat different, I think. Though there are obvious similarities too.

Can't say for sure. It's mostly a feeling.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


You're closer to the way I view it Cueball.

Our relationship to the "colonial construct" in some cases, is to view Canada as an imposed, foreign government.

The problem with lumping together the Black struggle and the Native struggle, starts right there.

The Black struggle is to be equal in a Euro-American/Canadian political arena.

The Native struggle is that we are many sovereign nations that bargained treaties as sovereign nations and those bargains were not honoured.

The brain struggle is to understand that Canada didn't "give us" *anything*. We had it all. Our ancestors treatied Canada/England/France places to provide for themselves. Europe/Canada didn't "give us" treaties because they didn't have any land to give. We gave THEM treaties that allowed them to live here.

Ask yourself--what is the cost of the real estate in Toronto? Caledonia? Vancouver?

My sister put it best, I think.

A woman meets a man. He courts her. She is happy to let him move in and share her house because it is her nature to think the best of people and he is being very charming, generous and accommodating.

Slowly starts a pattern of beatings. He rapes her. He intimidates her into letting him take over room after room in her house or he will kill her children. Now, he has so much of HER house, she is terrified of dying and for her children and she can't get him out.

Eventually, he locks her and the children in a closet. He occasionally opens the door and throws in some food and water--usually when the neighbours complain about hearing them cry. Meanwhile, since he does toss in just enough to keep her alive the neighbours are not willing to intervene because he's the neighbourhood bully.

Then he marches to the land registry office with her identification and forced signature, and has the house signed over to him.

Meanwhile, he complains about the cost of that little bit of food even though he has all her property.

He tells everyone the house is his because she let him beat her and that's just the way it is in this world. Her and the children will have to "get over it" and "move on" because he 'legally' obtained her house "a long time ago".

He tells her children that it's HER fault they have to live in a closet.

So I ask you, why would one of her children acknowledge this man's sovereignty over the house he stole and her property he benefits from?

If a child did this, that child would be admitting that this man had some RIGHT to be head of the household and to do what he did, rather than an abusive interloper.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: TVParkdale ]


From: DaHood | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 06 November 2008 08:44 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is my unexplored, purely intuitive take on what should be tried:

quote:

It seems to me that a participatory route could be helpful as hell in bringing about reforms - starting with new treaty provisions that provide a sound financial base for building new schools and medical facilities and infrastructure generally.

Isn't that route going to be necessary, in fact, to convince Canadians, as president-elect Barack Hussein Obama is continuing to convince more Americans, that change is possible?


Just took at look at the Maori situation in New Zealand where there is PR voting. The Maori Party was last polled at getting 2.7 per cent of the vote...not yet up to the 5 per cent threshold that bring representation in parliament.

I get two different sets of figures from a quick google...one says the Maori make up 10 per cent of the population and another says 15 per cent.

As 2 ponies seems to suggest (above) isn't it time to work for real change in living conditions, lifestyle, and graduate the people that would make up FN local government (the intention of the Inuit and Inuvialuit people who are looking to fill the top bureaucratic posts with their own). Maybe a lot more Jake Tootoosis's who are knowledgeable about the law. etc.

Surely the basic institutions of the invading culture are a necessary element for the advancement of the FN cause?


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 06 November 2008 09:40 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought of Joseph Brant, i.e. Thayendanegea. Thanks for the topic, moving to FN issues.
From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 06 November 2008 11:34 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that the difference in terms o population makes it a very different political game in Canada. If FN's and Metis were the same percentage of the population as Afro-American and Hispanics in the US then the idea of a FN PM would be almost a no brainer. The person I think of when I think of great Aboriginal parliamentarians is Frank Calder. His historic land claims case was a monumental achievement. The fact that 40 years later the Canadian governments still will not recognize the rights he fought for and instead are bankrupting FN's with decades upon decades of negotiation over inherent rights is one of our national disgraces.

Dr. Frank Calder

Of note today the Chief Negotiator for the Hul'qumi'num Treaty Group Robert Morales is taking Canada to the Internationsl Human Rights Commission. This is an interesting approach for advancing the land claims issues in BC.

quote:
Mr. Morales said the issue of privately held land has reached a deadlock in the B.C. treaty process. The Hul'qumi'num group is hoping first to get its case heard by the international tribunal. A favourable ruling, he said, could put pressure on Canada to rethink the notion of putting privately held land on the negotiating table.

The native group doesn't expect that the disputed land can ever be expropriated from private hands. But it does want an appropriate compensation package that recognizes the value of the land.

“We're not saying that we want to kick all the private landowners off their land. What we're saying is: ‘We want to be dealt with in a fair way,'” Mr. Morales said. “If a country or state confiscates land, they either have to return the land or give you replacement lands or they have to compensate you. I don't expect the government is going to expropriate all these lands and return them to the Hul'qumi'num. I just don't think that's in the cards. It's all developed. It's just not going to happen.”

However, the Hul'qumi'num group wants to reverse the mindset that privately held land won't ever be part of the negotiation equation.


New tactic to advance land claims in BC


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 06 November 2008 02:40 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
Try and keep it to the Canadian situation and the FN please.

Well I am truly sorry, but you did mention Obama paragraph one in the OP. I gave my opinion, and that also stands for Canada's Liberal Party and their illustrious record in governance wrt the long time abuse of indigenous people and neglecting FN issues. U.S. Liberal Democrats are not a good example for Canada, and I don't believe native people in Canada will make any real headway in our own Liberal Party. The historical record is there for all the world to examine. People like Tina Keeper should join the good fight, imo.

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


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Tommy_Paine
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posted 06 November 2008 05:50 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From what I can see on line, in the papers and talking to aboriginal friends, this is a time of flux both culturally and politically for First Nations people. I think what we are witnessing is the process of coming to a consensus over the relationship First Nations sees itself having with Canada.

I think it's a bit much to expect a First Nations leader to emerge who is not just going to put things to rights for his or her people, but for the rest of us too.

Tall order.

Maybe we should help out a bit, and clean our own long house first?


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 07 November 2008 02:29 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with your entire post, TP.


But my question IS, HOW ? In what form?

For instance, if FN people are divided on the importance of education, HOW does one help?

Or perhaps there is a challenge to the subject matter and the curricula? And perhaps this varies culturally and geographically.

All of these questions could be aired here. What in heck is the hangup? Bashful? Why can't this site be a place of learning as well as bitter exchanges driven by the apparent need for ego gratification (and worse)?

Don't just post something listing examples from around the world of why it's all so hopeless. That seems to be a favourite form of masochistic solace hereabouts.

Me old mum came out of London, England, nearly 90 years back, and hadn't really settled into life here when the Great Depression struck. Pictures of her show a very thin little woman - she almost achieved five feet - with my three skinny little brothers in tow (I came a bit late).

But hard as life was, growing up in Edwardian London without a pot to pee in, taught one not to complain. The "stiff upper lip" was a form of protection. If you were trying your best, it didn't help to wail and lament. And while I can say I never heard my mother utter an oath, if one whined in her presence, one heard "Don't be a misery ass."

Anyway, I think I need a break from the whine that's endemic, hereabouts.

Happy posting all!


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 07 November 2008 02:35 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

I thought of Joseph Brant, i.e. Thayendanegea. Thanks for the topic, moving to FN issues.


Unfortunately, I understand that he is not a favourite figure in history for some of the Six Nations people. Something about selling the valley of the Grand River to white settlers out of Pennsylvania, for not much more than the Paquot got for Manhattan.

-----------------------------------------

And just in from the Globe this A.M.


quote:

Oscar Lathlin, Manitoba minister of aboriginal affairs and former chief of Opaskwayak Cree Nation, died Nov. 1 in The Pas, which he had represented in the legislature for 18 years.

Hidden by his mother from Indian agents collecting children for residential school, Oscar was to graduate from Frontier Collegiate Institute in Cranberry Portage, a provincial boarding school, in 1969, at the age of 22.

He was a major force in the NDP government's effort to build the University College of the North. UCN now has 12 regional centres from Churchill to Flin Flon and Norway House.

The Globe and Mail's feature obituary today carried a quote from Chief Ovide Mercredi of the Misipawistik Cree Nation: "Oscar always believed in education," said Mr. Mercredi, who is chancellor of UCN. "He realized early that in order for us to advance politically, but also economically, we had to up our capacity in the community. People have to be able to do things for themselves, so he wanted to make sure that people had the opportunity to go beyond a high-school education."



[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 07 November 2008 05:43 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But my question IS, HOW ? In what form?

For instance, if FN people are divided on the importance of education, HOW does one help?


First Nations people have survived a lot. However, I'm not sure they can maintain survival if even more white people want to help.

First Nations attitudes to whatever example you want to draw, education if you like, is something for them to sort out, and they will.

The way we can "help" is to get our heads out of our asses, really, and understand that government injustice to First Nations people, or any people, are an injustice to all.

And, in as much as Canada is a democracy, those injustices are being carried out in your name. You should be taking such things personally.

That's what I mean by cleaning our own house first. We have to stop viewing injustices to First Nations people, or the Canadians who were tortured by proxy in Syria, or women who get shouted down in Parliament or our legislatures, or doctors that go unpunished for sending innocent people to jail as unrelated.

They are not unrelated. There is a pattern.

And, we are very much a part of it. We, George, are perhaps the evilest of them all. We are the good people who turn a blind eye.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
TVParkdale
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posted 07 November 2008 06:39 AM      Profile for TVParkdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
From what I can see on line, in the papers and talking to aboriginal friends, this is a time of flux both culturally and politically for First Nations people. I think what we are witnessing is the process of coming to a consensus over the relationship First Nations sees itself having with Canada.

I think it's a bit much to expect a First Nations leader to emerge who is not just going to put things to rights for his or her people, but for the rest of us too.

Tall order.

Maybe we should help out a bit, and clean our own long house first?


That's one of the very paramount problems right there, to me, anyway.

Everyone is waiting/hoping for ONE GREAT LEADER to emerge.

The "one great leader" theory is bogus. All "important" leaders do so only with the support and resources of many people/groups.

One of the reasons that the Native populace is considered low, is the the Metis, other than those who "qualify" aren't included. In New Zealand, mixed bloods ARE included in the population counts because there have been written genealogical records for a long time. Even many who might be considered "full bloods" in Canada are not counted because they are without government sanction through government deals made with certain nations.

We don't expect "Canadians" to all be on the same page, there are lefties, and righties, and middlers and libertarians and anarchists and communists and....

Yet, we are pointed at and told "Why can't YOU PEOPLE agree on anything?"

We come from all different sorts of backgrounds and experience.

Obvious problem is obvious. When people are continually hungry, sick, and/or traumatized it's very hard to get them on board, even for a simple task. Never mind something as complex as "fixing" the damage colonialist rule has caused.

As I said previously, I'm still trying to figure out the questions.


From: DaHood | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
TVParkdale
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posted 07 November 2008 07:04 AM      Profile for TVParkdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
I agree with your entire post, TP.


But my question IS, HOW ? In what form?

For instance, if FN people are divided on the importance of education, HOW does one help?[/QUOTE}

Personally, I think we need to stop looking at academia as the be-all-and-end-all of "education". In certain fields, in certain ways, it's useful.

I also think it's polarizing.

You mention your Mum below. I'm going to assume she wasn't well-educated. What ground-floor wisdom did she have? Was it useful? Should her voice have been stifled in a room full of people talking about politics or social reform?

[QUOTE]Don't just post something listing examples from around the world of why it's all so hopeless. That seems to be a favourite form of masochistic solace hereabouts.


I don't think it's hopeless at all. I just think at present, it's overwhelming. To make a group of problems LESS overwhelming, one usually breaks that down into simple tasks that can be accomplished. Eventually, the whole job gets done.

quote:
Me old mum came out of London, England, nearly 90 years back, and hadn't really settled into life here when the Great Depression struck. Pictures of her show a very thin little woman - she almost achieved five feet - with my three skinny little brothers in tow (I came a bit late).

But hard as life was, growing up in Edwardian London without a pot to pee in, taught one not to complain. The "stiff upper lip" was a form of protection. If you were trying your best, it didn't help to wail and lament. And while I can say I never heard my mother utter an oath, if one whined in her presence, one heard "Don't be a misery ass."


Where the problem differs here, is that for first Nations, the Great Depression has been going on for hundreds of years and it's still occurring.

Does one expect those whose families starved in Siberia, or who were killed by the Nazis to "suck it up"?

First and foremost, until the governmental/economic abuse stops, there can't be much in the way of reconciliation.

I think where it all bogs down is trying to take on far too much instead of just tackling one major struggle at a time.

Instead of worrying about education, poverty, healthcare, etc--although some effort must be taken there, without focusing on economic concerns [land claims, restitution] those situations will continue to grow. Once the resources are available *WITHOUT GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE* then we can look at ways to use those resources to tackle the other targets, one at a time.


Without resources, while that abuse continues, we are endlessly caught in "The Circle Game".

As it stands, the government sees itself as Big Daddy handing out the weekly allowance and telling us how to spend it. Any agency that uses a portion of that money for legal representation or for political purposes is immediately cut off. If it's supposed to be NATIVE money for NATIVE services, how do they get away with that?

Or worse, when it's OUR restitution money, [shoveled in to make us shut up, go away and "heal"] how come they're allowed to tell us how to spend it?

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: TVParkdale ]


From: DaHood | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 07 November 2008 07:28 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As it stands, the government sees itself as Big Daddy handing out the weekly allowance and telling us how to spend it. Any agency that uses a portion of that money for legal representation or for political purposes is immediately cut off. If it's supposed to be NATIVE money for NATIVE services, how do they get away with that?


In the same way they got away with stealing from the E.I. fund.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
TVParkdale
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posted 07 November 2008 08:16 AM      Profile for TVParkdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

In the same way they got away with stealing from the E.I. fund.


*waving arms madly*

POINT!!!

Uh I've always seen it as "employment tax". If it was "insurance" I could refuse to pay it and get a lawyer if they don't pay out my claim and sue them...


From: DaHood | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 07 November 2008 08:36 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
TVPs post:

quote:

I don't think it's hopeless at all. I just think at present, it's overwhelming. To make a group of problems LESS overwhelming, one usually breaks that down into simple tasks that can be accomplished. Eventually, the whole job gets done.


That is exactly what I have been trying to do for a week now - break the task into simple tasks, and FIRST find out FN position(s) on education, etc. That's why I posted those obits.


DO YOU AGREE with what those fellows were doing before they died at far too young an age?


--------------------------------------


quote:

And, we are very much a part of it. We, George, are perhaps the evilest of them all. We are the good people who turn a blind eye.



"We" TP? What I'm trying to do is "turn a blind eye?" It just comes from lack of concern? All those white New Democrats in Manitoba involved in building an educational system that works in the north. They too are evil?

Or is there a cutoff point to your recrimination? Some not quite arbitrary description of the white European descendant who is ok, passed some level of involvement to acceptance?

Platitudinous and gratuitous nonsense, TP. And quite racist, to boot.

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 07 November 2008 08:38 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
TVPs post:

quote:

I don't think it's hopeless at all. I just think at present, it's overwhelming. To make a group of problems LESS overwhelming, one usually breaks that down into simple tasks that can be accomplished. Eventually, the whole job gets done.


That is exactly what I have been trying to do for a week now - break the task into simple tasks, and FIRST find out FN position(s) on education, etc. That's why I posted those obits.


DO YOU AGREE with what those fellows were doing before they died at far too young an age?


--------------------------------------


quote:

And, we are very much a part of it. We, George, are perhaps the evilest of them all. We are the good people who turn a blind eye.



"We" TP? What I'm trying to do is "turn a blind eye?" It just comes from lack of concern?

Platitudinous nonsense, TP.


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
TVParkdale
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15681

posted 07 November 2008 08:38 AM      Profile for TVParkdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
TVPs post:


"We" TP? What I'm trying to do is "turn a blind eye?" It just comes from lack of concern?

Platitudinous nonsense, TP.


I didn't say "turn a blind eye"--so please direct your comment at the original poster, preferentially without the insult.

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: TVParkdale ]


From: DaHood | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 07 November 2008 08:46 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You are TVP.

TP is Tommy Paine.

Hope this does it by way of corrective:

quote:


"We" TP? What I'm trying to do is "turn a blind eye?" It just comes from lack of concern? All those white New Democrats in Manitoba involved in building an educational system that works in the north. They too are evil?

Or is there a cutoff point to your recrimination? Some not quite arbitrary description of the white European descendant who is ok, passed some level of involvement to acceptance?

Platitudinous and gratuitous nonsense, TP. And quite racist, to boot.

end quote

--------------------------------------------

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor

You'll see I've added two more observations regarding that quote.

(And this is why I'm going to take a little break. Getting a little gun shy by posting here.
Had quite a bellyful for a bit.

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
TVParkdale
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15681

posted 07 November 2008 08:52 AM      Profile for TVParkdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
That is exactly what I have been trying to do for a week now - break the task into simple tasks, and FIRST find out FN position(s) on education, etc. That's why I posted those obits.

I think I was more than clear above where I stated that we need to appreciate MORE than just academic credentials because that simply becomes one more division.

I also think I was pretty clear in stating that until the abuses STOP and the economic realities are faced nothing is going to move forward in a cohesive manner.

I also stated that once that has happened, I believe we are quite capable of working out the use of educational resources quite well, without the the colonial interference of the government playing the Big Daddy money game.

Do I believe these men were on the right track? If we were looking at assimilation such as the Black community desires, yes.

If we're looking at Native sovereignty and economic prosperity for all--that's a whole different view of the situation.


From: DaHood | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
TVParkdale
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15681

posted 07 November 2008 08:54 AM      Profile for TVParkdale     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
You are TVP.

TP is Tommy Paine.

Hope that does it by way of corrective.

(And this is why I'm going to take a little break. Getting a little gun shy by posting here).

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


OOOOPS! Sorry, I thought you just forget the "V"--I'll try to look more carefully next time


From: DaHood | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10724

posted 07 November 2008 09:03 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
[QBOr is there a cutoff point to your recrimination? Some not quite arbitrary description of the white European descendant who is ok, passed some level of involvement to acceptance?

Platitudinous and gratuitous nonsense, TP. And quite racist, to boot.[/QB]


I am glad you are taking a little break, GV, and when you do return, please dial back the rhetoric, thanks. First Nations peoples are under no obligation to make any declaration of their personal acceptance of newcomers to Turtle Island, although they may acknowledge their awareness and understanding of existing treaties.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 08 November 2008 07:47 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canadians not ready to elect aboriginal as PM
by Doug Cuthand (an aboriginal)
Friday, November 07, 2008
[excerpt]
quote:
It's said that when something is useless and worn out, it's given to the coloured folks. In Canada, we have received the white man's castoffs for years. The same thing is happening now south of the border.

My old friend, the late Everett Soop, once drew a cartoon that showed the minister of Indian Affairs with an Indian passenger on a power toboggan. The caption read, "We're out of gas, now you can drive." That's how things look south of the border.

Whenever the Department of Indian Affairs wanted to unload its problems, it gave them to the Indians. The first problem to be transferred to First Nations' control was the welfare program, way back in the 1960s. Over the years, the department steadily unloaded programs and problems, along with limited funds, to the band councils. This was followed with rundown army bases, boarding schools and other surplus junk.

George Bush has left the United States in such a mess that no white man will want to be president. The country is involved in two wars, it is mired in debt, its reputation is tattered internationally and its economy is headed into a recession. It looks like a good time to hand the reins of power to a minority....

Aboriginal people in Canada are the equivalent of the blacks in the U.S. Would Canadians elect an aboriginal person as prime minister?

We have Native people in both the House of Commons and the Senate, as well as in several provincial legislatures. But these aboriginal politicians have been elected in constituencies where we form the majority of voters. Getting elected elsewhere is another matter.

In spite of all the hype and good feelings south of the border, the polls showed that 16 percent of American voters stated that they could not vote for a black person as president, no matter what.

I feel that an aboriginal candidate in Canada would be up against the same prejudice, especially here in the West. Given the level of racism in Western Canada,

I don't think it's likely that we will elect an aboriginal prime minister in the foreseeable future. The public has a lot of maturing to do before that.

In any event, the election of Obama to the highest office in the United States has given hope to minorities. We will have to see if his election changes America and, by extension, what impact it has on Canada.



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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