Author
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Topic: Air Canada Unions Kamikaze Carrier
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BDT
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5434
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posted 10 April 2004 07:55 PM
It is with great glee and expectations of a huge fireball that I watch Air Canada's unions pilot the carrier into the ground.The ships carrying the grumpiest workers with the worst service and attitude are plunging to earth in a self inflicted death spiral. !!!! Roll on WestJet.!!!! [ 10 April 2004: Message edited by: BDT ]
From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2004
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BDT
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5434
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posted 10 April 2004 08:49 PM
Robbie:Yes , this is the ultimate "let the market decide" along with supply and demand economics. You will find the supply of arrogant, overpaid, crass people who are giving poor and untimely service is much greater than the demand in the marketplace. I myself prefer the less paid, happier workers at WestJet who take me where I want to go, on time and for less money than AirCanada. Their supply is constantly being used up by an increased demand, thus their growth. Buzz Hargrove should just start signing up West Jet workers I guess, just to even the playing field. Where is Air Canada's next white knight coming from. Will one of the unions pull another "take your money back to China" remark to the next person foolish enough to try to save that crappy airline.???? So in closing, if they are doing such a good job at Air Canada, they will be fine. All the jobs will be saved , because of course they are all in a union and doing the best job possible. Right?? [ 10 April 2004: Message edited by: BDT ]
From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2004
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robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195
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posted 10 April 2004 09:03 PM
Well I don't know much about WestJet, but I do know that here in the USA, Southwest Airlines is a popular discount carrier that combines good customer service, cheap flights AND an almost entirely unionized workforce.Link: The Southwest Model (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette) quote: Southwest is the only top-10 airline that hasn't had a major labor disruption or strike in the past 20 years, an impressive feat given that more than 80 percent of its workers belong to a union. It's the only major airline to earn a profit last year, when the entire industry lost more than $7 billion. It was the only major carrier that did not have to reduce operations and lay off thousands of employees after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Last week, it was the only major carrier to report a profit in its first quarter.What does all that have to do with corporate culture? Listen to Salomon Smith Barney airline analyst Brian Harris: "When I think of strategic assets for an airline, I'm always thinking of its hubs. In the case of Southwest, I have to say it's their labor relations."
I tend to think the problems at Air Canada have more to do with it's dysfunctional corporate culture and crappy management than they do with the mere fact that its employees belong to unions. If anything, the problems at Air Canada are a strong argument for why those workers need unions. If only Air Canada could learn to better value its employees and their union representatives, maybe they could get themselves out of the mess they're in now. [ 10 April 2004: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]
From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001
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radiorahim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2777
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posted 11 April 2004 03:56 AM
True.You'd be grumpy too if you'd taken cut after cut to keep the airline afloat while the CEO is paying himself bonuses. Air Canada workers are sick of everyone wanting to make them pay for everyone else's mistakes. Westjet is a regional airline. It's not a national or international carrier, never has been, never will be and quite frankly doesn't want to be. Most of the "talking heads" appearing on the tube quite frankly don't know what they're talking about. I think the unions are probably glad that Victor Lee is out of the way and now they can get talking to some serious players. Air Canada has cash in the bank to carry them through to the fall, and still holds the majority of the domestic and international traffic with Canada. The potential is there for someone to make a whole pile of money. The unions are simply looking for someone who has a solution other than simply to take it out of their hides.
From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002
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robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195
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posted 12 April 2004 06:32 PM
I get the funny feeling we won't be hearing much more from BDT on this topic. A quick browse of his other "contributions" on this site suggests he's pretty much all bluster and no substance. I don't mind if he wants to prove me wrong; but I won't hold my breath while I'm waiting, either.Regardless, though, Jim Stanford had a good article on this in today's Globe and Mail that I thought I would pass along. When in doubt, just blame the unions (G&M 04/12/04) quote: Given the motley cast of characters populating Canada's perpetually crisis-ridden airline industry, it is especially incredible that unions get all the brickbats. Victor Li considered investing, then backed away — though no fundamental aspect of the business before him (labour costs, competition, unpredictable fuel costs) changed. Meanwhile, the credibility of Air Canada's bosses to negotiate a rescue was destroyed when they took $20-million in personal payouts from Mr. Li; they became front-men for his growing demands.The federal government is another sorry actor, architect of the 1987 deregulation that has produced 14 money-losing years in 17 for the whole industry, not just particular companies. Its completely inconsistent policy on Air Canada (first blessing its merger with Canadian Airlines, then sabotaging it) contributed hugely to the current fiasco. Indeed, with Ottawa's politically convenient inaction, labour concessions can make no conceivable difference to the industry's never-ending crisis. Even if unions (and pension plans) were eliminated from the industry tomorrow, airlines would still be pushed to the financial brink by cut-throat competition and an inescapable tendency to concentration. The only difference is that airline workers would be a little poorer and a little more desperate as the sorry saga continued to unroll. And how about WestJet, the "model" we should all now follow? Its executives preach free and fair competition, but expend considerable energy in Ottawa to win increasingly bizarre forms of protection against competition from Air Canada — that is, when they're not defending themselves against allegations that they hacked into confidential data from competitors' computers.
[ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]
From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001
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robbie_dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 195
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posted 12 April 2004 07:23 PM
quote: Maybe because they could see the benefit in actually providing customer service to the people giving them business?
And what benefits exactly did those employees get for being "cheerful?" Canadian Airlines still went away. The only protection those Canadian workers had was their seniority, provided by those big-bad unions, which helped ensure the longest serving workers would keep their jobs in the new merged Air Canada. I am truly sorry it sounds like some of you have had bad experiences flying Air Canada. But I'd really like to think you're capable of more sophisticated analysis than: "Some employees of Air Canada were grumpy the day I flew with them, therefor: (1) all employees of Air Canada are grumpy and deserve what they get, (2) the fact that employees are grumpy is the sole source of all the various problems in the airline industry. If they'd just smiled when they processed my ticket then their airline would be profitable." [ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]
From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ranger03
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5302
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posted 12 April 2004 09:01 PM
Okay Oatmeal here it is quote: Neat game to play while travelling, anytime you talk to an Air Canada employee and they are smiling and cheerful and helpful, ask them how long they worked for Canadian Airlines. Let me know if you ever find one that says they have only worked for Air Canada.
You have found a happy Air Canada employee of thirty years while the most disgruntled were Canadian and still are. I had a daughter that worked for wj.. they paid single moms min wage for part time then work them full time hours while social assistance subsidizies them...Oh ya she worked answering complaints (probably from such loyal fans as yourself)What is your occupation mister customer service and how many miles do you and your globe trotting friend from regina travel?? I sure would like to see you travel as a disabled person on wj of course you knowledgable travelers don't give a rats ass about that (neither does wj) BDt..that would be a typical red neck comment but I see you are from Regina... Move to Alberta You will fit in nice.. dont forget to bring your sheets and hood. Wow.. it feels so good to just spout off and generalize like you two.. I can see why you do it. [ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: Ranger03 ]
From: bed | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jingles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3322
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posted 12 April 2004 09:45 PM
Ah yes, the beauty and glory of the free market airlines. See, all you really need is service with a smile to please the I-Am-The-Most-Important-Business-Man-On-Earth traveller, and the profits roll in.As for WJ being profitable, continue to ignore the welfare, subsidies, and favorable government intervention and keep the fantasy alive. If they think fuel is expensive now, how would they like to pay the real, unsubsidized price? The entire airline industry not an example of the success of the free market, but an perfect example of its utter failure to work in what is really a natural monopoly. No private airline would fly without governments providing lift. Like after 911, when the drown-government-in-a-bathtub Republicans bailed out the airlines in an example of socialist intervention that made Soviet Five Year Plans look like a Wall Street Journal editorial. Re-Nationalize AC. Throw the executives in jail for criminal negligence, and seize their assets.
From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002
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BDT
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5434
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posted 13 April 2004 12:21 PM
Wow:I really didn't expect this topic to garner this much attention. I would like to contribute more but as many of you have correctly guessed , I am a rather simple man and am not quite sharp enough to provide details or contribute to this discussion. To put it in Red Neck terms, Air Canada sucks and West Jet rules. Bye Bye Air Canada
From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2004
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