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Author Topic: Air Canada Unions Kamikaze Carrier
BDT
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Babbler # 5434

posted 10 April 2004 07:55 PM      Profile for BDT        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is with great glee and expectations of a huge fireball that I watch Air Canada's unions pilot the carrier into the ground.

The ships carrying the grumpiest workers with the worst service and attitude are plunging to earth in a self inflicted death spiral. !!!!

Roll on WestJet.!!!!

[ 10 April 2004: Message edited by: BDT ]


From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 10 April 2004 08:04 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All those people out of work, and the relying on American carriers for overseas travel (stopping over in the USA where you can be tortured at the whim of some underpaid power tripping security guard.)

I'm not exactly gleeful myself!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 10 April 2004 08:13 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
lovely.

If you can stop drooling on yourself long enough to use the keyboard again, would you care to substantiate your opinion that "unions are piloting Air Canada into the ground," and moreso, that that is supposed to be a good thing?

[ 10 April 2004: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
BDT
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posted 10 April 2004 08:49 PM      Profile for BDT        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Robbie:

Yes , this is the ultimate "let the market decide" along with supply and demand economics.

You will find the supply of arrogant, overpaid, crass people who are giving poor and untimely service is much greater than the demand in the marketplace.

I myself prefer the less paid, happier workers at WestJet who take me where I want to go, on time and for less money than AirCanada. Their supply is constantly being used up by an increased demand, thus their growth.

Buzz Hargrove should just start signing up West Jet workers I guess, just to even the playing field.

Where is Air Canada's next white knight coming from. Will one of the unions pull another "take your money back to China" remark to the next person foolish enough to try to save that crappy airline.????

So in closing, if they are doing such a good job at Air Canada, they will be fine. All the jobs will be saved , because of course they are all in a union and doing the best job possible. Right??

[ 10 April 2004: Message edited by: BDT ]


From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 10 April 2004 09:03 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well I don't know much about WestJet, but I do know that here in the USA, Southwest Airlines is a popular discount carrier that combines good customer service, cheap flights AND an almost entirely unionized workforce.

Link: The Southwest Model (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette)

quote:
Southwest is the only top-10 airline that hasn't had a major labor disruption or strike in the past 20 years, an impressive feat given that more than 80 percent of its workers belong to a union. It's the only major airline to earn a profit last year, when the entire industry lost more than $7 billion. It was the only major carrier that did not have to reduce operations and lay off thousands of employees after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Last week, it was the only major carrier to report a profit in its first quarter.

What does all that have to do with corporate culture? Listen to Salomon Smith Barney airline analyst Brian Harris: "When I think of strategic assets for an airline, I'm always thinking of its hubs. In the case of Southwest, I have to say it's their labor relations."


I tend to think the problems at Air Canada have more to do with it's dysfunctional corporate culture and crappy management than they do with the mere fact that its employees belong to unions. If anything, the problems at Air Canada are a strong argument for why those workers need unions. If only Air Canada could learn to better value its employees and their union representatives, maybe they could get themselves out of the mess they're in now.

[ 10 April 2004: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 11 April 2004 03:56 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
True.

You'd be grumpy too if you'd taken cut after cut to keep the airline afloat while the CEO is paying himself bonuses.

Air Canada workers are sick of everyone wanting to make them pay for everyone else's mistakes.

Westjet is a regional airline. It's not a national or international carrier, never has been, never will be and quite frankly doesn't want to be.

Most of the "talking heads" appearing on the tube quite frankly don't know what they're talking about. I think the unions are probably glad that Victor Lee is out of the way and now they can get talking to some serious players.

Air Canada has cash in the bank to carry them through to the fall, and still holds the majority of the domestic and international traffic with Canada.

The potential is there for someone to make a whole pile of money. The unions are simply looking for someone who has a solution other than simply to take it out of their hides.


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 11 April 2004 04:10 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So far, BDT, I haven't seen you write anything that didn't make you look like an idiot. But hey, hope springs eternal.
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 12 April 2004 05:20 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Air Canada management decided to try to play "my pockets are deeper than yours" with the competition, in hopes of getting a monopoly and being able to hike prices after the competition was bankrupted. They partially succeeded, but new competition arose, and by that time they'd run themselves into the ground.
What unions have to do with any of this idiocy is beyond me.

From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 12 April 2004 06:32 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I get the funny feeling we won't be hearing much more from BDT on this topic. A quick browse of his other "contributions" on this site suggests he's pretty much all bluster and no substance. I don't mind if he wants to prove me wrong; but I won't hold my breath while I'm waiting, either.

Regardless, though, Jim Stanford had a good article on this in today's Globe and Mail that I thought I would pass along.

When in doubt, just blame the unions (G&M 04/12/04)

quote:
Given the motley cast of characters populating Canada's perpetually crisis-ridden airline industry, it is especially incredible that unions get all the brickbats. Victor Li considered investing, then backed away — though no fundamental aspect of the business before him (labour costs, competition, unpredictable fuel costs) changed. Meanwhile, the credibility of Air Canada's bosses to negotiate a rescue was destroyed when they took $20-million in personal payouts from Mr. Li; they became front-men for his growing demands.

The federal government is another sorry actor, architect of the 1987 deregulation that has produced 14 money-losing years in 17 for the whole industry, not just particular companies. Its completely inconsistent policy on Air Canada (first blessing its merger with Canadian Airlines, then sabotaging it) contributed hugely to the current fiasco. Indeed, with Ottawa's politically convenient inaction, labour concessions can make no conceivable difference to the industry's never-ending crisis. Even if unions (and pension plans) were eliminated from the industry tomorrow, airlines would still be pushed to the financial brink by cut-throat competition and an inescapable tendency to concentration. The only difference is that airline workers would be a little poorer and a little more desperate as the sorry saga continued to unroll.

And how about WestJet, the "model" we should all now follow? Its executives preach free and fair competition, but expend considerable energy in Ottawa to win increasingly bizarre forms of protection against competition from Air Canada — that is, when they're not defending themselves against allegations that they hacked into confidential data from competitors' computers.


[ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 12 April 2004 06:40 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sounds like the employees should buy Air Canada and run it themselves, sounds like there are just shitloads of money to be made and with no risk.
From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 April 2004 06:48 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Or the government could unprivatize it, slap the CEOs, and stop this ridiculous merry-go-round of "Blame the Unions".
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 12 April 2004 06:56 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why the hell should the goverment own an airline? Let Air Canada go tits-up, WestJet and other private airlines will provide the service for less cost to the consumer.
From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 12 April 2004 06:58 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here Here!
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 12 April 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You'd be grumpy too if you'd taken cut after cut to keep the airline afloat while the CEO is paying himself bonuses.

Then how come Canadian Airlines employees were so pleasant to deal with, throughout their prolonged demise? Maybe because they could see the benefit in actually providing customer service to the people giving them business? Shame Air Canada's employees can't seem to grasp that basic fact.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 12 April 2004 07:16 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Neat game to play while travelling, anytime you talk to an Air Canada employee and they are smiling and cheerful and helpful, ask them how long they worked for Canadian Airlines. Let me know if you ever find one that says they have only worked for Air Canada.
From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 12 April 2004 07:19 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
LOL Oatmeal...too true.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sports Guy
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posted 12 April 2004 07:20 PM      Profile for Sports Guy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I never had good service on Canadian, my bad experiences with Air Canada have mostly been post-merger. That being said, WestJet rules.
From: where the streets have no name | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 12 April 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, WD, some of them are sure sour, and it isn't helping their cause. If it does come to a goverment bail-out they won't get much sympathy from their customers.

[ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: The Oatmeal Savage ]


From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 12 April 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Maybe because they could see the benefit in actually providing customer service to the people giving them business?

And what benefits exactly did those employees get for being "cheerful?" Canadian Airlines still went away. The only protection those Canadian workers had was their seniority, provided by those big-bad unions, which helped ensure the longest serving workers would keep their jobs in the new merged Air Canada.

I am truly sorry it sounds like some of you have had bad experiences flying Air Canada. But I'd really like to think you're capable of more sophisticated analysis than:

"Some employees of Air Canada were grumpy the day I flew with them, therefor: (1) all employees of Air Canada are grumpy and deserve what they get, (2) the fact that employees are grumpy is the sole source of all the various problems in the airline industry. If they'd just smiled when they processed my ticket then their airline would be profitable."

[ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 12 April 2004 07:24 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Air Canada has consistently given me terrible service, unlike Canadian Airlines or their awesome predecessors, CP Air (the best ever) and Wardair. Pacific Western was always dodgy at best.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ranger03
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posted 12 April 2004 09:01 PM      Profile for Ranger03        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay Oatmeal here it is

quote:
Neat game to play while travelling, anytime you talk to an Air Canada employee and they are smiling and cheerful and helpful, ask them how long they worked for Canadian Airlines. Let me know if you ever find one that says they have only worked for Air Canada.

You have found a happy Air Canada employee of thirty years while the most disgruntled were Canadian and still are. I had a daughter that worked for wj.. they paid single moms min wage for part time then work them full time hours while social assistance subsidizies them...Oh ya she worked answering complaints (probably from such loyal fans as yourself)What is your occupation mister customer service and how many miles do you and your globe trotting friend from regina travel?? I sure would like to see you travel as a disabled person on wj of course you knowledgable travelers don't give a rats ass about that (neither does wj)
BDt..that would be a typical red neck comment but I see you are from Regina... Move to Alberta You will fit in nice.. dont forget to bring your sheets and hood. Wow.. it feels so good to just spout off and generalize like you two.. I can see why you do it.

[ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: Ranger03 ]


From: bed | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 12 April 2004 09:12 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How much travel? 12 time zones, once a month. I've had and heard many more horror stories with Air Canada than with Canadian Airlines or BA. EasyJet, WestJet, Bangkok Airlines, Lufthansa, Turkish Airlines, they all have better service than AC.
From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ranger03
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posted 12 April 2004 09:21 PM      Profile for Ranger03        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
How much travel? 12 time zones, once a month

Wow 12 time zones once a month.. how ever do you get to spend so much time here? guess big stories don't only come from Texas. Almost sound like a flight attendant.


From: bed | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 12 April 2004 09:45 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah yes, the beauty and glory of the free market airlines. See, all you really need is service with a smile to please the I-Am-The-Most-Important-Business-Man-On-Earth traveller, and the profits roll in.

As for WJ being profitable, continue to ignore the welfare, subsidies, and favorable government intervention and keep the fantasy alive. If they think fuel is expensive now, how would they like to pay the real, unsubsidized price?

The entire airline industry not an example of the success of the free market, but an perfect example of its utter failure to work in what is really a natural monopoly. No private airline would fly without governments providing lift. Like after 911, when the drown-government-in-a-bathtub Republicans bailed out the airlines in an example of socialist intervention that made Soviet Five Year Plans look like a Wall Street Journal editorial.

Re-Nationalize AC. Throw the executives in jail for criminal negligence, and seize their assets.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 12 April 2004 10:22 PM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah isn't it wonderful how CEO's are ardent "free marketeers" when things are going well for them and then go screaming for bailouts when things are going bad ??

David Lewis said it right when he talked about the "corporate welfare bums" back in the '72 election campaign... its still the same...no actually its worse!


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 12 April 2004 11:01 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

As for WJ being profitable, continue to ignore the welfare, subsidies, and favorable government intervention and keep the fantasy alive.


Details, please.

From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 12 April 2004 11:06 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by radiorahim:

David Lewis said it right when he talked about the "corporate welfare bums" back in the '72 election campaign... its still the same...no actually its worse!

Gee, if you don't like corporate welfare bums, you might like these sites.

http://www.taxpayer.com/ACOA.pdf
http://www.taxpayer.com/studies/federal/TPC_Audit_2002.pdf
http://www.taxpayer.com/studies/federal/CorporateWelfare-Quebec.pdf
http://www.taxpayer.com/studies/federal/WED-Study.pdf
Or the link site;
http://www.taxpayer.com/studies/federal.htm


From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 13 April 2004 11:02 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As for WJ being profitable, continue to ignore the welfare, subsidies, and favorable government intervention and keep the fantasy alive. If they think fuel is expensive now, how would they like to pay the real, unsubsidized price?

You mean like how the customers of all other airlines in Canada have to pay an increased Navcan fee to subsidize Air Canada's inability to pay up their share?


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
BDT
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posted 13 April 2004 12:21 PM      Profile for BDT        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow:

I really didn't expect this topic to garner this much attention. I would like to contribute more but as many of you have correctly guessed , I am a rather simple man and am not quite sharp enough to provide details or contribute to this discussion.

To put it in Red Neck terms, Air Canada sucks and West Jet rules.

Bye Bye Air Canada


From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 13 April 2004 01:43 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BDT:
I really didn't expect this topic to garner this much attention. I would like to contribute more but as many of you have correctly guessed , I am a rather simple man and am not quite sharp enough to provide details or contribute to this discussion....

So long. There's room for all sorts in this world. May I suggest yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre for some more attention-getting behaviour?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 13 April 2004 01:53 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I give BDT credit. Most trolls refuse to admit that they don't know what they're talking about.
From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 13 April 2004 02:28 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good point. But I felt a parting shot was in order, given BDT's opening remark,
quote:

It is with great glee and expectations of a huge fireball that I watch Air Canada's unions pilot the carrier into the ground.

Aircraft that are deliberately exploded into a fireball killing all aboard aren't a fantasy anymore. They're a grim reality.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ranger03
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posted 13 April 2004 02:36 PM      Profile for Ranger03        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My Work History
Let me apologize for my out burst last night. I lost some control when faced with the unfounded sensasionalism printed here. Check out my work history. Not only have I worked with many Airlines but I have flown all major carriers and kept a log. I have had fantastic flights, mediocer flights and poor flights.
Having said that, only one of my discussion items was spoken to leaving me to believe there is not an answer.
bdt
quote:
The majority of those you love so much are the ones serving you now, they have just changed uniforms again

quote:
CTV news said last night "the majority of dissenters to the new restructuring are former Canadian employees as they know from experience how it works".

But you did hook me with your vituprative inflammatory bullshit which I will try and avoid in the future
quote:
It is with great glee and expectations of a huge fireball that I watch Air Canada's unions pilot the carrier into the ground.
The ships carrying the grumpiest workers with the worst service and attitude are plunging to earth in a self inflicted death spiral. !!!!
I can confirm your suspicions though, you are in fact an idiot however as you recognize that you are on the road to recovery

From: bed | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 14 April 2004 03:47 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An article from someone who does know what he's talking about.

The skies are not falling at Air Canada - Unions are not to blame for latest crisis at Air Canada

quote:
Despite what you're reading in the papers these days the skies are not falling at Air Canada. There is still a fair amount of turbulence but most of it is being generated by Air Canada management who blame the unions for Victor Li's threatened walkaway from the airline under bankruptcy protection. You didn't read it here first, but let me tell you again. Air Canada will not fold and sell off all its assets because the unions at Air Canada would not give up their pension plan.

From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged

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