P.S. I see they felt the need to identify his ethnic background in the first sentence of the article. Have they completely abandoned all journalistic standards in the US?

[ 29 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I saw that on the news last night. Really horrible. At least they caught the guy, and I'm sure they'll throw the book at him.

P.S. I see they felt the need to identify his ethnic background in the first sentence of the article. Have they completely abandoned all journalistic standards in the US?

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Originally posted by Michelle:
They (CNN, that is) have no idea whether what this guy did has anything to do with the current ME conflict, and even if it turns out that this was his motivation, certainly his being of Pakistani background does not make him predisposed to react that way.

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Amy Wasser-Simpson, vice president for planning and community services at the Jewish Federation told The Seattle Times that a man got through security at the building and told staff members: "I'm Muslim American. I'm angry at Israel," then began shooting.

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First I'm not making generalizations. I know most Muslims are really nice people. And it’s sad that the issue was not clear in CNN and I apologize for not making clear in my previous thread. But apparently people are making it an issue, not me I was just expressing what I know of some people in the environment it is not my intent to make generalizations.

Second if it was some Christian fundamentalist from the Deep South it would also be important. This is not some random shooting, a specific community was specifically targeted making it a hate crime. All communities have there extremists some more than others, it’s a big issue and it needs to be addressed. I’d like to see a society where everyone is free to express themselves how they see fit but how can we tolerate those who will not tolerate us.

Three this is not just the problems of Guns in the United States although that is a major problem, I don’t think any person should own a gun. Police officers should only be allowed to use them on duty and there should be a system of checks and balances on the police force. Which there are in democratic societies, although they probably are not perfect and you can argue that they don’t go far enough?

The bottom line is that there is racism and hate everywhere, certain acts may perpetuate that hate. It doesn’t make the hate anymore rational or justified. The world needs to go on a global campaign to teach tolerance. It is much easier to do in an open democratic society where you can be critical of the government or certain religious sects and practices. It is more difficult to do in a country where the government vehemently incites the people to hate. These governments don’t necessarily need to be dictatorships but it does show I believe a lack of education in those governments communities.

[ 29 July 2006: Message edited by: Free duh? ]

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Originally posted by Free duh?:

First I'm not making generalizations. I know most Muslims are really nice people.

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You can't even make it to the third sentence without contradicting yourself.

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funny how you spend more time talking about the one crazed killer

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It is not just one crazed killer or one isolated incident. There are imams out there like Elmasry and Rabbis like Kahne and Rev like Jerry Falwell and they don’t just preach hate in cones of silence; and sometimes far off some takes there crazed preaching and turn them into actions. Although I do believe that most people don’t take their preaching too seriously there is still enough that do.

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Originally posted by unionist:
But it's funny how you spend more time talking about the one crazed killer (if that's what he is) than the several hundred million "nice" people.

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Lay off a bit. This thread is about this particular person and his motivations for committing this crime, so of course people are going to talk about him rather than every other Muslim in the world. And he's right - if this were some whacked out fundamentalist Christian and reports were that he told a 911 operator that he hates Jews, people would talk about what kind of extreme religious beliefs might have led him to do it. That doesn't mean anyone's saying that all Christians think like that. Let's not search for reasons to be offended, okay? He went out of his way not to make generalizations and I appreciate his effort.

[ 29 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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But it's funny how you spend more time talking about the one crazed killer (if that's what he is)

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If you don't know if he is a "crazed Killer" why label the suspect as such?

Are you attempting to sway opinion away from the possible religious connection without any facts either way?

Perhaps the suspect "went postal" in the American tradition because he was not shortlisted for the janitor's position with this organisation.

Perhaps he is following orders.

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P.S. I see they felt the need to identify his ethnic background in the first sentence of the article. Have they completely abandoned all journalistic standards in the US?

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Considering that the guy yelled "I am a Muslim and I want to kill Jews" - or words to that effect it seems to me that to try to cover up the ethnic/religious background of the killer would be a true abandonment of journalistic standards.

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When they mention Rockefeller or Roosevelt, don't they always hasten to add "of Dutch descent"?

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

Considering that the guy yelled "I am a Muslim and I want to kill Jews" - or words to that effect it seems to me that to try to cover up the ethnic/religious background of the killer would be a true abandonment of journalistic standards.

Is it also wrong to label the name of the nation that dropping is bombs on Beirut? Maybe the the bombs are just spontaenously falling from heaven? Maybe Iran is actually doing it in order to create sympathy for Hezbollah???

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Nationality and ethnicity are not the same thing Stockholm. (It was actually "I am a Muslem and I am angry at Israel) But I do agree with naming the nationality (or ethnicity) of the killer. Hopefully, there won't be any backlash *crosses fingers*

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Considering that the guy yelled "I am a Muslim and I want to kill Jews" - or words to that effect it seems to me that to try to cover up the ethnic/religious background of the killer would be a true abandonment of journalistic standards.

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A german diplomat in France was killed in 1938 by a pissed off Jew, and this was the event which was used as an excuse by the Nazi's pogrom, Kristallnacht.

People like this come up with all kinds of reasons why, some religous, some political, there is no way anyone can draw generalized conclusions about the persons religous or cultural or ethnic background. Usually, there are deep psychological factors involved and deep frustrations that then manifest them in extreme biases and political positions.

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People like this come up with all kinds of reasons why, some religous, some political, there is no way anyone can draw generalized conclusions about the persons religous or cultural or ethnic background. Usually, there are deep psychological factors involved and deep frustrations that then manifest them in extreme biases and political positions.

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So in othere words you're saying that when a Muslim goes on a rampage killing Jews we should think twice before expressing any outrage since we need to consider "the deep psychological factors and deep frustration...".

Do you suppose that anyone in the Muslim world ever says "Before you get angry at Israelis for bombing Lebanon, let's stop and consider the "the deep psychological factors and deep frustration" that Israelis and Jews everywhere must feel as a result of hgaving been persecuted for thousands of years.

Lapine is in fact a perfect example of the phenomena I am talking about. There a combination of life frustrations (not being able to get into school) was manifested in violence as justified within a highly misogynist world view.

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However, the world-wide attack upon Muslim people by the US, and its ally Israel, are doing nothing to allieviate basic tensions among Muslim people, and for that to manifest like this is not at all suprising.

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No one knows what set the perpetrator off.Maybe his girl left him for a Jewish guy.Maybe he didn't get a full two scoops in his raisin bran.Maybe he is an untreated schizophrenic.

I simply thought it apropos to make my point, as someone above was drawing rather wide conclusion about Muslim people, based on this event.

I can't really see any other significant political point to be made here. This is really just one more wacko murder, or so it seems, at least partly triggered by the massive and continous slaughter of Muslim people by the US and Israel over the last decade.

[ 29 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Witnesses said the man announced he was an Muslim American as he forced his way into the federation offices just after 4 p.m. and fired randomly at employees with a semiautomatic 9-mm handgun. Seattle Police Assistant Chief Nick Metz said there were at least 18 people in the offices when the shooting started.

Witnesses say the gunman shot one receptionist, then ordered her to dial 911. He then took the phone from her.

"He told the police that it was a hostage situation and he wanted us to get our weapons out of Israel," said one woman who heard the account from the wounded co-worker.

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[ 29 July 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

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Originally posted by ohara:
Seems to me it is more than "opinions ventured by various law enforcement officials.":

[ 29 July 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]

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Yeah,the article is updated and contains much more info.

Haq was to go to court for his wienie wagging charge on Thursday and got a traffic ticket half an hour before the shooting.There is also evidence to suggest premeditation.

Haq was not religious,although his parents were.

Based on the evidence so far,another loner with issues going postal.Not unusual in the land of the free.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Of course it also goes without saying that if you have an issue with Israeli foreign policy, the place to voice that is at an Israeli consulate or embassy - not a community centre for American Jews who may or may not have any ties to Israel or give a damn about what is going on there.

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Originally posted by jester:
No one knows what set the perpetrator off.Maybe his girl left him for a Jewish guy.Maybe he didn't get a full two scoops in his raisin bran.Maybe he is an untreated schizophrenic.

It may not have anything to do with Muslim tensions.I doubt that anyone,Muslim or otherwise is exempt from all the other tensions and frustrations in life.

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Originally posted by josh:

I certainly agree with you. But one of the successes of political Zionism is placing Jews in danger, wherever they may be.

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Exactly. As Norman Finkelstein once pointed out, the ADL did some study of "anti-Semitism" in the general population and considered those who agreed that Jews are more loyal to Israel than to their home country are "anti-Semitic". But of course if you're a Zionist you're SUPPOSED to think they're loyal to Israel above all else, so that makes most Zionists, by ADL criteria, anti-Semitic!

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

The Zionist organizations make a huge effort trying to conflate Jews with Israel - every mainstream Jewish organization uncritically supports Israel - it's wrong, but not surprising that people will begin to do the same thing. In fact by doing so they're fomenting anti-Semitism.

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According to this article, it was about Israel:

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However, the law-enforcement source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said there is no evidence Haq was involved with any group.

"He said he hates Israel," said the source, who is part of the Seattle Joint Terrorism Task Force, which was called in to help investigate the shootings.

David Gomez, the assistant special agent-in-charge of the Seattle FBI office, said there is "nothing to indicate he is part of a larger organization."

"We believe he is a lone individual with antagonism toward this organization," said Gomez.

Witnesses say the gunman shot one receptionist, then ordered her to dial 911. He then took the phone from her.

"He told the police that it was a hostage situation and he wanted us to get our weapons out of Israel," said one woman who heard the account from the wounded co-worker.

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[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by josh:

I certainly agree with you. But one of the successes of political Zionism is placing Jews in danger, wherever they may be.

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But one of the successes of political Zionism is placing Jews in danger, wherever they may be.

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If that is the case you must be scratching your head in wonderment over the fact that so many pogroms and massacres of Jews happened in the world long before Israel existed or was even an idea.

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Originally posted by ohara:
Nice Josh, blame the victim for the outrages of those who would target Jews for violence. Its the fault of the Jews (or their organizations), that's real good Josh.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

If that is the case you must be scratching your head in wonderment over the fact that so many pogroms and massacres of Jews happened in the world long before Israel existed or was even an idea.

What could possibly explain the fact that it is actually possible for anti-semitism to exist in the absence of Israel???

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Originally posted by ohara:
Hey Stockholm lets not forget that Jews yearned to return to their ancient homeland, the land of Israel, for over 2000 years. Much of this yearning occurred in the synagogues of Eastern Europoe. Ipso facto Jews gathering anywhere at any time cause violence to themselves.

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I've never approved of "Islamic republics" and officially "Christian" states give me the screaming meemies.

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Hey Stockholm lets not forget that Jews yearned to return to their ancient homeland, the land of Israel, for over 2000 years

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[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Opposition to the existence of a Jewish state in Palestine or to Israeli behavior is not ispo facto anti-Semitism.

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The fact is that the PLO and Hamas, have both pledged to keep attacks inside the "internal area" since the early 1980's and as such have maintained that position until this date.

Your assertion is just more hyperbole, hysteria and fearmongering, and aside from a few exceptions completely false. The reality is that the Arab resitance to Israel have been on the whole very disciplined in its commitment to keep the conflict localized.

The only clear exceptions are a few radicals roughly assembeled around OBL, and he has been roundly condemned by the leadership of the PLO, Hamas, and Hezbollah.

[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by otter:

Can someone enlighten me on why the jewish people left their homeland in the first place? Or did they ever actually have one?

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Uh, basically the Romans kicked them out.

And, while it is true that Jews did yearn to return to the land of Israel, for many, it was an idealized wish or dream, and not really at the top of the agenda.

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Actually not. There has been one unproven example of Hezbollah attacking a site in Argentina, and in the seventies some attacks by factions within the PLO such a Munich. To make such a claim, as somehow unique to Arabs and Muslims in the light of several Israeli attacks against Arabs in Jordan, and Lebanon and Syria, including assassination by car bomb is obviously a paranoic distortion of the facts.

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Meanwhile, whatever happened to the expected backlash against Muslims in Toronto??? I haven't read about anymore incidents at all. I guess to many people's great disappointment, the vast, vast majority of Canadians do not practice guilt by association and do not become vigilantes.

It must be soooooo disappointing to all you people who have now placed Muslims at the top of the "heirarchy of the oppressed" in Canada that none of these race riots against them have come to pass. It would have been so much easier to deify all those women in burqas as being the emblematic "victims" of our time - if only Canadians would cooperate and start attacking them. How frustrating that it just isn't happening!

[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

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To this day we wear white ribbons as a result of Marc Lepine murdering 14 girls in Montreal after writing his anti-feminist rant and we have not hesitated to view that in the context of male violence against women. i don't remember every many people saying, "let's stop and consider how frustrating it must be to be a man who is a total loser and seeing all these women being successful, therefore let's not be too hard on him".

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The Media also ignored his Muslim hertitage and never mentioned that he was," born Gamil Gharbi, the son of an Algerian Muslim immigrant Liess Gharbi and Québécoise Monique Lépine."

Wikipedia

Stockholm, I must say that I can't believe you are apparently joining dackle, who is clearly daring Michelle to ban him, in dredging up Marc Lapine's ethnicity and religion, when you know perfectly well they were irrelevant to the killings he did and when you also know that the references to those origins have mainly been brought into play by right-wing anti-Muslim types
like dackle who want to use them to help build the rapidly cooling war fever against Islam.

At least, it appears you are joining with dackle. I hope I'm wrong about that and apologize if I am.

And fine, Mr Haq. did say that he was angry at the Jews. What exactly do you want us to do with that that would prove to you that the rest of us are suffeciently concerned?

I appreciate your rage at what happened in Seattle and I share it. There was no excuse for what Mr. Haq did. But I don't really understand what you want from us here. And I'd like to.
Honestly.

[ 30 July 2006: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

You forgot various hijackings where the terrorists went through peoples passports to see who was Jewish so they would know who to kill first. Remember Leon Klinghoffer?

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Oh no I did not. You just didn't read after the first paragraph. I pointed out that all Palestinian militant groups made a commitment to only attack targets in Israel, or in the occupied territories. When was the last time Palestinian militants attacked a target on foreign soil?

If Marc Lapine, aka whatever, was targetting women because he was a sexist pig, mentioning his sex is relevant. If the Seattle idiot was targetting Jews because he's Muslim, his religion is relevant, since he according to police he declared "I am Muslim-American". He decided it was relevant and declared this. It would be irresponsible for the media not to mention it, in this case. If some commentators think the police have an agenda and fabricated this statement, media should mention this in an editorial. This does not imply that the media think all men are murderous sexist pigs or that all Muslims want to kills Jews. But, some men attempt to justify murder due to sex/gender and some religions attempt to do the same with religion.

If Marc Lapine had misogynist beliefs which he justified due to fundamentalist Christian or Muslim or whatever views, his religion becomes noteworthy.

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: EmmaG ]

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: EmmaG ]

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If Marc Lapine, aka whatever, was targetting women because he was a sexist pig, mentioning his sex is relevant. If the Seattle idiot was targetting Jews because he's Muslim, his religion is relevant.

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I must say that I can't believe you are apparently joining dackle, who is clearly daring Michelle to ban him, in dredging up Marc Lapine's ethnicity and religion, when you know perfectly well they were irrelevant to the killings he did and when you also know that the references to those origins have mainly been brought into play by right-wing anti-Muslim types like dackle who want to use them to help build the rapidly cooling war fever against Islam.

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And here I thought I was pointing out that if Lepine committed his murders today, the media would be all over the fact that he had a Muslim father regardless of relevance.

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If Marc Lapine had misogynist beliefs which he justified due to fundamentalist Christian or Muslim or whatever views, his religion becomes noteworthy.

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Emma,if you read his suicide letter rather than engaging in idle speculation,you would discover that M.Lepine made no mention of religious views and blamed the failures of his life on"radical feminists".

Some of his remarks were delusional.He blamed "radical feminists" for the fact that he was refused admittance to the university when in fact,he did not have the prerequisite courses for entry.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I understand what they were doing. They figure that since there's a huge conflict happening in the Middle East, and this guy's ethnic background is as a Muslim from the region, they're tying it together. But it's a false tie-in. They (CNN, that is) have no idea whether what this guy did has anything to do with the current ME conflict, and even if it turns out that this was his motivation, certainly his being of Pakistani background does not make him predisposed to react that way.

Typical example of racist media.

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Your point is good, about the false tie-in, but it's not racism. It's just the way the media are. They present all sorts of implied links where they can find them, knowing they don't have to substantiate causation because they didn't actually say it.

It's no different than:
"Peter Jennings, a long time smoker, died of lung cancer..."

There is no proof that the smoking caused the lung cancer, although there is a good chance it did (not all lung cancer is caused by smoking). So they throw the link in there.

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No Stockholm, the real point you were trying to make, and failing miserably at, is that Arabs get what they deserve,

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Originally posted by jester:

Emma,if you read his suicide letter rather than engaging in idle speculation,you would discover that M.Lepine made no mention of religious views and blamed the failures of his life on"radical feminists".

Some of his remarks were delusional.He blamed "radical feminists" for the fact that he was refused admittance to the university when in fact,he did not have the prerequisite courses for entry.

He was the product of an alcoholic,brutal, misogynist father,not the product of a religious indoctrination.

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Some of his remarks were delusional.He blamed "radical feminists" for the fact that he was refused admittance to the university when in fact,he did not have the prerequisite courses for entry.

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There are some theories that the root of Adolf Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was the fact that several Jewish art gallery owners in Vienna refused to exhibit his art.

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Originally posted by dackle:

And here I thought I was pointing out that if Lepine committed his murders today, the media would be all over the fact that he had a Muslim father regardless of relevance.

I hope you've emailed Michelle about my fever against Islam, Ken.

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I don't agree that Lapine's ethnicity and religion would automatically be brought up today. And from what I've seen, the people who have mentioned it in various forae were right wingers who thought that the media covered up Lapine's origins in the name of some unfair fixation with "PC" and out of unwarranted deference to feminism.

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I don't agree that Lapine's ethnicity and religion would automatically be brought up today.

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You're right. The Toronto 17 didn't even do anything and their ethnicity and backgrounds were brought up endelessly.

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And from what I've seen, the people who have mentioned it in various forae were right wingers who thought that the media covered up Lapine's origins in the name of some unfair fixation with "PC" and out of unwarranted deference to feminism.

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Why? Because a hypothetical misogynist Muslim who killed 14 women because he, perhaps due to his religious upbrining, felt he was better than they were? That wouldn't interest feminism?

It's not a media cover up, or PC. The Muslim angle either wasn't that relevant to the media at the time, or in terms of journalistic sensationalism, not that juicy.

But in today's political climate, can you honestly tell me no media would mention the fact that [irresponsible invocaton] Lepine [\irresponsible invocation] had a Muslim father.

They'd be all over it like stink on a hippy.

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Lapine killed because he hated women. His ethnic background and religous roots were and are irrelevant. And you know it. It was irresponsible for you to invoke them.

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I think it is relevant in Huq's case, Taheri-azar's case and come to think of it when writing about Bush's directions from God regarding war (Christian).

[ 31 July 2006: Message edited by: EmmaG ]

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Originally posted by dackle:

How's that email coming? Just put "right-wing anti-Muslim types like dackle" in the header and be sure to include samples of my many anti-Muslim ravings.

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I don't actuall support banning. I was just pointing out that, the way things usually work here, you are basically cruising for it. I'm not obliged to participate in the banning process to make that observation.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Meanwhile, whatever happened to the expected backlash against Muslims in Toronto??? I haven't read about anymore incidents at all. I guess to many people's great disappointment, the vast, vast majority of Canadians do not practice guilt by association and do not become vigilantes.

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Originally posted by EmmaG:
Cueball, so what if their "targets" are limited to the "internal zone" only? They are still targetting civilians. It's wrong for Israel to target civilians and it's wrong for Palestinians to target civilians and it's wrong for Hezbollah to target civilians. It's wrong for all of these groups to go against the Geneva conventions, even though, to my knowledge, none of them are signatories.

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I was not making a moral judgement I was simply correcting Stockholms fabulation that Palestinian militants have been active internationally. They have not for quite some time.

I think it unfairly prejudices the way this story is being "read" as if opens up a potential reading on this event, as possibly having something to do with organized Palestinian militants. Palestinians have assidiously avoided international attacks for almost 20 years.

I believe that Stockholm was unfairly prejudicing the facts, and implying the activity of direct intervention of forces that are unlikely to have anything to do with this event. In essence it was a broad swipe against all muslim people.

The principle important political aspect of this case is wether or not this is a "lone gunman" situation or an acto of organized militancy, as the latter has far greater implications over-all, while the former just puts this into the category of localized crime.

As for the moral issue. Yes. I think there is a moral difference between attacking civilians who are directly involved in the conflict, and those that are not.

[ 02 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]