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Author Topic: Human Chain Protests in Gaza
Snowy Plover
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14984

posted 25 February 2008 01:33 AM      Profile for Snowy Plover        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
JERUSALEM — The Israeli Army bolstered its forces on the Israeli side of the border fence with the Gaza Strip on Sunday after Palestinian advocates there called on residents to form a human chain on Monday along the Gaza side, from Rafah in the south to Beit Hanun in the north.

The advocates are protesting the embargo imposed by Israel since the Islamic militant group Hamas took over Gaza last June. Israel recently tightened the blockade in response to intensified rocket fire from the strip.



Full Article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/world/middleeast/25mideast.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

This is an impressive event with exceptional symbolism, though the undertones seem precarious as it seems quite similar to the violent demonstrations on the Gaza-Egypt border that ended with Hamas's border breach. Israel is heeding a very clear warning, though she would do better to emphasize Hamas's cynical use of Gazans as cover for a potentially provocative and dangerous situation. As previously witnessed, the proof is in the pudding.


From: international | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 25 February 2008 06:31 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This was actually covered by the Ceeb, which is surprising.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Snowy Plover
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14984

posted 25 February 2008 07:08 AM      Profile for Snowy Plover        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Although the event, promoted by Hamas Islamists and allied activists, was peaceful, militants in the Gaza Strip fired rockets at southern Israel while the protest was under way, wounding a child.

After the human chain broke up, Palestinian youngsters hurled rocks at Israeli soldiers at Gaza's Erez border crossing. The Israeli army said it detained 50 stone-throwers.



Full Article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080225/wl_nm/palestinians_israel_dc;_ylt=Ak_BFIGvjA5cU4N8rtR1gXNm.3QA

Hard to believe that the organizers intentions were truly peaceful, seeing as the demonstrations were complemented by rocket salvos that severely injured a 10 year-old boy in Israel. Rock throwing might be an expression of justified frustration, yet rocket launching that target civilian centers is clearly deplorable. This puts into question the credibility of the protests today in Gaza.

How legitimate is an organization that targets civilians in order to achieve their political goals?


From: international | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 25 February 2008 08:51 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
How legitimate is an organization that targets civilians in order to achieve their political goals?

A fine question to be posed both to Hamas and to the thugs in the Knesset.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 25 February 2008 09:19 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Hamas is shunned by Israel and the West for refusing to give up its stated goal of seeing the Jewish state eliminated. It has, however, offered a skeptical Israel a conditional, long-term ceasefire.

"Peace and dialogue are not an option for them (Hamas)," Mekel said, calling for the group's continued international isolation.


Quite the imbedded bias in this article. No peace until the Palestinians elect a government the Israelis and US think they can control. That is real democracy.

And really who knowes who is firing the rockets. Is it Hamas or is it another group?


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 25 February 2008 04:48 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who cares?

Here is an interesting part of the story not quoted:

quote:
Israel strengthened its border security forces, with an extra 5,000 police drafted in to back up regular armed guards, and local media reports said that snipers and even an artillery battery had been sent to make sure that the crowds did not attempt to scale the high concrete walls and razor wire fences that mark the boundary.

British rag

The initiator of this thread tells us it is a dangerous situation and indeed it is for the Palestinian protesters. By virtue of being born Palestinian in a racist state, their lives have no value and thus the apartheid state of Israel would have no qualms about turning snipers and artillery against men, women, and children attempting to flee the ghetto prison.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Snowy Plover
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14984

posted 27 February 2008 01:34 AM      Profile for Snowy Plover        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Quite the imbedded bias in this article. No peace until the Palestinians elect a government the Israelis and US think they can control. That is real democracy.
And really who knowes who is firing the rockets. Is it Hamas or is it another group?

Quite challenging to decipher where the imbedded bias actually exists. The Reuters article does not state nor imply that the US and Israel want to ‘control’ the Palestinian government, that’s quite the editorial. Mekels statement was possibly misinterpreted, as what he indicated was that Hamas’s position negates peace and dialogue as a potential solution.

If a Quebecian terrorist organization (whether religious or nationalist) was launching rockets at rural towns in Ontario, condemning Canadian sovereignty and determined to destroy Canada, it would be understandable if the Canadian government refused to hold peace talks with them.

True, who cares who’s firing the rockets? Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda? Gaza is still wrought with lawlessness and the primary victims are the Palestinian people, a majority of which who—according to recent polls—oppose Hamas’s regime. I’m not going to respond to allegations on racism and apartheid, as it’s clear that the origin itself contains a racist connotation. In reading the London Times article, one might notice that a Hamas official states they were willing to sacrifice “hundreds of lives.” It’s ironic that Hamas stands behind the protests. Hamas should in fact be the subject of protests, as it bars the path for the Palestinian people to finally achieve their deserved statehood.


From: international | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 27 February 2008 05:29 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
f a Quebecian terrorist organization (whether religious or nationalist) was launching rockets at rural towns in Ontario, condemning Canadian sovereignty and determined to destroy Canada, it would be understandable if the Canadian government refused to hold peace talks with them.

And if it was the legally, transparently elected Quebec government launching the shells?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Snowy Plover
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Babbler # 14984

posted 27 February 2008 06:55 AM      Profile for Snowy Plover        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The legally and transparently elected Hitler launched shells, was that ok? No government, however democratic, has the right to deliberately target civilians.

That elections are free and fair does not necessarily indicate that governance is legitimate and accountable, especially in the case of Hamas. A funcitioning democracy is not so simple. Hamas was elected, yet to suggest that the organizations political wing at all represents the will of the Palestinian people would be dubious. Just look at the polls. If Hamas held frequent elections, then it might fair better, yet it's still doubtful how accountable it would be seeing their horrible track record to date. Other than cracking down on corruption, they've failed in nearly every other facet of governance. Possibly because, Islamist terror organizations havent proven the capacity to deliver basic governance.


From: international | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 27 February 2008 07:17 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Snowy Plover:
Hamas was elected, yet to suggest that the organizations political wing at all represents the will of the Palestinian people would be dubious.

Israel - a long-time condemned violator of international law, human rights, and the Geneva Conventions - calls itself "the Jewish state" and purports to speak in the name of Jews.

Yet I never got a vote.

Were there some Palestinians not allowed to vote in the elections that Hamas won?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 27 February 2008 11:54 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Snowy Plover:
The legally and transparently elected Hitler launched shells, was that ok? No government, however democratic, has the right to deliberately target civilians.


What do you call air strikes on buildings in the occupied territories? Israel is in the same category then?

How about Ground Zero? Obviously the 100's of thousands murdered in the only two ground zeros has to be the most outrageous case, correct?

Shock and Awe remember that one? You would agree that was a deliberate targeting of civilians?

How about destroying villages in Afghanistan? Does that fall under your proscription?

If you are going to attack democratically elected governments for targeting civilians I presume you will include the above noted instances.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 27 February 2008 06:43 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The more vulgar apologists for U.S. and Israeli crimes solemnly explain that, while Arabs purposely kill people, the U.S. and Israel, being democratic societies, do not intend to do so. Their killings are just accidental ones, hence not at the level of moral depravity of their adversaries. That was, for example, the stand of Israel's High Court when it recently authorized severe collective punishment of the people of Gaza by depriving them of electricity (hence water, sewage disposal, and other such basics of civilized life).

The same line of defense is common with regard to some of Washington's past peccadilloes, like the destruction in 1998 of the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Sudan. The attack apparently led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, but without intent to kill them, hence not a crime on the order of intentional killing -- so we are instructed by moralists who consistently suppress the response that had already been given to these vulgar efforts at self-justification.

To repeat once again, we can distinguish three categories of crimes: murder with intent, accidental killing, and murder with foreknowledge but without specific intent. Israeli and U.S. atrocities typically fall into the third category. Thus, when Israel destroys Gaza's power supply or sets up barriers to travel in the West Bank, it does not specifically intend to murder the particular people who will die from polluted water or in ambulances that cannot reach hospitals. And when Bill Clinton ordered the bombing of the al-Shifa plant, it was obvious that it would lead to a humanitarian catastrophe. Human Rights Watch immediately informed him of this, providing details; nevertheless, he and his advisers did not intend to kill specific people among those who would inevitably die when half the pharmaceutical supplies were destroyed in a poor African country that could not replenish them.

Rather, they and their apologists regarded Africans much as we do the ants we crush while walking down a street. We are aware that it is likely to happen (if we bother to think about it), but we do not intend to kill them because they are not worthy of such consideration. Needless to say, comparable attacks by Araboushim in areas inhabited by human beings would be regarded rather differently.



Chomsky deconstructs racist logic.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Snowy Plover
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14984

posted 27 February 2008 11:41 PM      Profile for Snowy Plover        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What do you call air strikes on buildings in the occupied territories? Israel is in the same category then?

A misinterpretation, no government however democratic, including Israel, has the right to deliberately target civilians.

Air strikes on so called 'buildings' in the Gaza are legitimate objectives because they serve as weapons manufacturing and storage facilities, Hamas training camps, terrorist headquarters, etc. Just as IDF military bases might be legitimate targets in warfare. The Qassam that landed in the Zikim base and injured 39 soldiers, was not a terrorist attack. (Although its doubtful whether Hamas actually intended to hit the base, seeing the unreliable accuracy of the Qassam rocket)

There is no legitimacy for accidental civilian deaths caused by IDF airstrikes. Still, the onus of responsibility lies in the hands of Hamas, that intentionally fires Qassams and mortar shells from populated areas, thereby putting the civilian population in harms way. (Not to mention, that some the shells actually fall in Palestinian territory, that's something you don't hear on the news) The classic example is the launching from an elemtary boys school in Beit Hanun that was caught on camera. This is, par excellance, indicative of the cynical use of the Palestinian population as cover and camouflage. Would you agree to terrorists or militants launching rockets in your backyard?

By the way, Gaza is not occupied.


From: international | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged

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