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Author Topic: UN commits more massacres in Haiti
a lonely worker
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posted 22 January 2007 11:19 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
According to residents of Cite Soleil, UN forces attacked their neighborhood in the early morning hours of Dec. 22, 2006 and killed more than 30 people including women and children.

The military operation was said to have been personally sanctioned by President Rene Preval, who was elected last year with support from Aristide's Lavalas movement.

The irony is that the attack on Dec. 22 seems to have been triggered, not by a surge in kidnappings as claimed by the UN, but by another massive demonstration of Lavalas supporters that began in Cite Soleil.

Footage taken by HIP videographers shows unarmed civilians dying as a result of indiscriminate gunfire from UN forces on December 22, 2006. Although the UN denied firing from helicopter gunships, an unidentified 28 year-old man dies on camera stating that he was shot in the abdomen from a circling UN helicopter raining death upon those below. This is not the first time the UN has denied murdering unarmed civilians in Cite Soleil.

The scene December 22, 2006 was not all that different with the UN feeding the corporate media a story of military intervention against kidnappers and denying once again the disproportionate use of force resulting in the heavy loss of life among unarmed civilians. Another similarity was the UN's utter disregard in planning for civilian causualties. As in July 2005, not a single medical unit accompanied the UN forces as residents hit by indiscriminate and sustained gunfire bled to death in the middle of the street or managed to crawl back to their homes to die in the arms of their families.

"I couldn't count all the victims," states one survivor who asked to remain anonymous due to fears for her safety. "They came in shooting. Look at that pregnant woman they just shot. Look at that young man. Are we all bandits? Are we all kidnappers?" Annette Auguste, who was a political prisoner in Haiti for more than two years added, "We saw young men and women gunned down by UN forces in Cite Soleil. Young people shot dead . Were they all kidnappers too?"

More than three hours of video footage and a large selection of digital photos, illustrate more than words ever could what the UN is doing in Haiti. The wounded and dying on the video tape all express horror and confusion at the reasons UN forces shot at them. A 16 year-old young man asks why UN forces shot him as he clearly realizes he is going to die. Less than an hour later we see his lifeless corpse replace what once was an animated and articulate young man. HIP Founding Editor Kevin Pina commented, "It is clear that this represents an act of terror against the community. This video evidence shows clearly that the UN stands accused, once again, of targeting unarmed civilians in Cite Soleil. There can be no justification for using this level of force in the close quarters of those neighborhoods. It is clear that the UN views the killing of these innocents as somehow acceptable to their goal of pacifying this community. Every demonstration, no matter how peaceful, is seen as a threat to their control if it includes demands for the return of Aristide to Haiti. In that context it is difficult to continue to view the UN mission as an independent and neutral force in Haiti. They apparently decided sometime ago it was acceptable to use military force to alter Haiti's political landscape to match their strategic goals for the Haitian people."


Here's the link but be warned the pictures are incredibly graphic and conclusive proof of these war crimes:
UN in Haiti accused of second massacre

Where's our media? This is fucking disgusting. There are times I'm ashamed to be Canadian when our greed and ignorance allow us to blindly destroy another nation's people for the sake of a few extra profits for the uber rich neo-libs.

No one can read this first hand account and not be moved to act against this disgusting slaughter by our own imperial stormtroopers (or those commissioned to preserve our economic order).

[ 22 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]

[ 27 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


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quelar
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posted 23 January 2007 10:20 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm so proud of our peacekeeping.

*gag*


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unionist
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posted 23 January 2007 10:47 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hope this isn't seen as thread drift. But can someone explain to me, in simple terms:

1. Why Aristide left; and

2. Why he doesn't come back?


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Painet Cirques
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posted 23 January 2007 12:49 PM      Profile for Painet Cirques     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, he was forced out so I assume he will die if he tries to run again.
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a lonely worker
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posted 23 January 2007 05:51 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unionist Aristide didn't leave by his free will. He was forced out by the governments of Canada, the US and France. As Painet Cirques points out, returning to a neo-lib colony would be a life shortening experience considering the "free" Haitian government has banned his party and are slaughtering his supporters.

Here's a great article by Naomi Klein to provide some context:

quote:
When United Nations troops kill residents of the Haitian slum Cité Soleil, friends and family often place photographs of exiled President Jean-Bertrand Aristide on their bodies. The photographs silently insist that there is a method to the madness raging in Port-au-Prince. Poor Haitians are being slaughtered not for being "violent," as we so often hear, but for being militant; for daring to demand the return of their elected president.

Aristide is certainly no saint. But even if the worst of the allegations are true, they pale next to the rap sheets of the convicted killers, drug smugglers and arms traders who ousted Aristide and continue to enjoy free rein, with full support from the Bush Administration and the UN. Turning Haiti over to this underworld gang out of concern for Aristide's lack of "good governance" is like escaping an annoying date by accepting a lift home from Charles Manson.

A few weeks ago I visited Aristide in Pretoria, South Africa, where he lives in forced exile. I asked him what was really behind his dramatic falling-out with Washington. He offered an explanation rarely heard in discussions of Haitian politics--actually, he offered three: "privatization, privatization and privatization."

The dispute dates back to a series of meetings in early 1994, a pivotal moment in Haiti's history that Aristide has rarely discussed. Haitians were living under the barbaric rule of Raoul Cédras, who overthrew Aristide in a 1991 US-backed coup. Aristide was in Washington and despite popular calls for his return, there was no way he could face down the junta without military back-up. Increasingly embarrassed by Cédras's abuses, the Clinton Administration offered Aristide a deal: US troops would take him back to Haiti--but only after he agreed to a sweeping economic program with the stated goal to "substantially transform the nature of the Haitian state."

Aristide agreed to pay the debts accumulated under the kleptocratic Duvalier dictatorships, slash the civil service, open up Haiti to "free trade" and cut import tariffs on rice and corn in half. It was a lousy deal but, Aristide says, he had little choice. "I was out of my country and my country was the poorest in the Western hemisphere, so what kind of power did I have at that time?"

But Washington's negotiators made one demand that Aristide could not accept: the immediate sell-off of Haiti's state-owned enterprises, including phones and electricity. Aristide argued that unregulated privatization would transform state monopolies into private oligarchies, increasing the riches of Haiti's elite and stripping the poor of their national wealth. He says the proposal simply didn't add up: "Being honest means saying two plus two equals four. They wanted us to sing two plus two equals five."

Aristide proposed a compromise: Rather than sell off the firms outright, he would "democratize" them. He defined this as writing antitrust legislation, insuring that proceeds from the sales were redistributed to the poor and allowing workers to become shareholders.

When Aristide announced that no sales could take place until Parliament had approved the new laws, Washington cried foul. Aristide says he realized then that what was being attempted was an "economic coup." "The hidden agenda was to tie my hands once I was back and make me give for nothing all the state public enterprises.

Aristide's relationship with Washington has been deteriorating ever since: While more than $500 million in promised loans and aid were cut off, starving his government, USAID poured millions into the coffers of opposition groups, culminating ultimately in the February 2004 armed coup.

And the war continues. On June 23 Roger Noriega, assistant secretary of state for Western Hemisphere affairs, called on UN troops to take a more "proactive role" in going after armed pro-Aristide gangs. In practice, this has meant a wave of Falluja-like collective punishment inflicted on neighborhoods known for supporting Aristide. On July 6, for instance, 300 UN troops stormed Cité Soleil, blocking off exits and firing from armored vehicles. The UN admits that five were killed, but residents put the number of dead at no fewer than twenty.

Yet despite these attacks, Haitians are still on the streets--rejecting the planned sham elections, opposing privatization and holding up photographs of their president. And just as Washington's experts could not fathom the possibility that Aristide would reject their advice a decade ago, today they cannot accept that his poor supporters could be acting of their own accord--surely Aristide must be controlling them through some mysterious voodoo arts. "We believe that his people are receiving instructions directly from his voice and indirectly through his acolytes that communicate with him personally in South Africa," Noriega said.

Aristide claims no such powers. "The people are bright, the people are intelligent, the people are courageous," he says. They know that two plus two does not equal five.


Aristide in Exile


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 23 January 2007 06:37 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by a lonely worker:
As Painet Cirques points out, returning to a neo-lib colony would be a life shortening experience considering the "free" Haitian government has banned his party and are slaughtering his supporters.

Thanks. But I'm genuinely confused. The article by Naomi Klein is 18 months old, and there has been a change in government (hasn't there?) since then. Do your comments (and Painet Cirques's) apply to the new government as well?

Other question: Has anyone heard from Aristide in the past year?

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is who's who in this tragic situation, and why the U.N. would be slaughtering people there.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 23 January 2007 10:21 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Aristide is currently "temporarily" in South Africa and is forbidden from returning to Haiti.

As the original article mentions it was predominately Aristide's supporters from the banned Lavolas Party that propelled the current President Rene Preval to power. Preval promised he would allow Aristide to return. Once in power he decided he liked it and has since gone back on his word. When people realised they had been taken, they took to the streets and Preval unleashed our hired butchers in the blue helmets.

The Naomi Klein article gives a good history as to the reasons why Aristide was perceived to be a threat to the New Feudal Order propelling Canada, France and the US to work through the International Republican Institute to remove him from power. In the anarchy that followed it has been conservatively estimated over 8,000 Aristide supporters have been massacred and over 35,000 rapes have occurred of Lavolas supporters.

Meanwhile our media played up this mission as humanitarian and compassionate a la "the white man's burden" sort of spin.

Preval has turned into a massive disappointment and these recent actions demonstrate he is as well controlled as all before him.

Our actions in Haiti have everything to do with preserving the neo-lib economy. With close to 100 years of colonial domination (the US directly occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934 in one instance alone) there is no way they will allow these descendants of rebellious slaves even a hint of independence. They used to call their policy against Haiti the "cordon sanitaire" (literally meaning quarantine zone).

Our actions and greed have directly led to Haiti being the basket case of our hemisphere. No other country has been invaded, occupied or economically attacked (the US and most white powers had an embargo against them for over 60 years) as much in our hemisphere (Cuba still has a way to go). Yet as good imperialists we always blame them for the problems we did to them.

ETA: To show how long we can carry a grudge against any nation of former slaves who rebelled (Haiti is the only country to have successfully done this), when the US first invaded in 1915 a young US Naval administrator named Franklin D Roosevelt wrote their US subservient constitution and institued something called "corvee labor" which placed the entire population into forced free labour to build US sponsored projects. Forced free labour sounds a lot to me like slavery and obviously FDR's role in creating the last formalised slavery system in our hemisphere has been well and truly buried.

Here's some links on their history:

Very comprehensive

Snapshot of Corvee Labour and our interference

Here's another article with some perspective on the US actions as occupiers in 1915:

quote:
The U.S. Marines’ first action was to blast into the Haitian national treasury, take all the gold (stolen for a second time if any of it was Arawak gold), and ship it to the First National City Bank in New York. They tore up the Haitian Constitution, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, then Secretary of the U.S. Navy, wrote a new one. His allowed foreigners to own land. U.S. companies then grabbed the most fertile valleys and set up agribusinesses growing sugar, rubber, sisal, and other crops. Haitians were again enslaved under a system of forced labor called the "corvée." At bayonet point, Haitian peasants were forced to build roads, railroads, buildings, and other infrastructure to service U.S. companies and their neo-colonial administration.

But the Haitian people resisted. A guerilla army known as the "Cacos" under the leadership of Charlemagne Péralte and Benoit Batraville was formed. They put up heroic resistance to the Yankees, with horses, machetes, and ancient guns.

Just as this year in Yugoslavia, in the Haitian war, the U.S. tested its new weapons, many for the first time, such as aerial bombing and strafing, rudimentary tanks, and machine guns.

The Marines killed thousands of Caco fighters, including Péralte and Batraville. Peasants in guerilla zones or who resisted the "corvée" were herded into concentration camps, precursors to the infamous "strategic hamlets" of Vietnam.

The U.S. occupied Haiti for 19 years until 1934, and there were many atrocities. The most famous was on a day in 1929 when the Marines gunned down 264 protesting peasants in the town of Les Cayes.

In the decades following the first occupation, U.S. war crimes against Haiti were generally carried out by a proxy army. First the U.S. trained the Guard of Haiti, which later became the Armed Forces of Haiti. After the rise of the dictator Francois Papa Doc Duvalier in 1957, the U.S. collaborated with the infamous Tonton Macoutes to terrorize and kill the Haitian people.


Haiti is no stranger to the war crimes of the former colonial powers

Not pretty reading but Haiti should be exhibit A in any discussions about what depths we will stoop to (including re-instituting slavery) to maintain our imperial order.

BTW, corvee labour still exists. Now the Haitians are forcibly taken to the DR and forced to work the sugar cane fields til they drop for the large US muti-nationals. It is estimated there are over 300,000 Haitians in corvee labour bondage in the DR. But that's another post.

[ 23 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]

[ 23 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
quelar
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posted 24 January 2007 12:38 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is who's who in this tragic situation, and why the U.N. would be slaughtering people there.


All good questions, and hopefully we'll get some answers to these questions. I had a long discussion with a Haitian refugee about a year ago, and he said that Arastide was a corrupt jackass, and was the reason he left, but word he was getting back from home was that the "peacekeepers" were doing nothing but allowing the gangs to consolidate their power.

My normal conspiracy reasons don't work here, there isn't some vast oil/diamond/uranium field or anything like that in Haiti, and the trouble doesn't seem worth taking a country by force like this. But then, maybe its a test ground for something.


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Fidel
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posted 24 January 2007 07:26 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
I hope this isn't seen as thread drift. But can someone explain to me, in simple terms:

1. Why Aristide left; and

2. Why he doesn't come back?


Another troublemaker.

And so,why can't approximately 80 percent of the Haitian electorate vote for Jean Bertrand Aristide if they want to?

And only 50 miles from Cuba, too. tsk tsk


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 24 January 2007 07:43 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Judging by the lack of neo-lib posters who endlessly post Miami Herald articles on any Cuban or Venezuelan thread it might as well be on another planet.

According to their silence, they see nothing wrong with UN "peacekeepers" acting on our orders massacring innocent civillians.

It also important to note that bastion of fiefdom, sorry "freedom": Human Rights Watch, is still working itself into a lather over things like Venezuela removing the amount of times the same candidate can run for office (which is the same law we have in Canada). Yet when one looks at their recent comments on Haiti the crickets are in full force. Typical neo-lib hypocrites.

At least Amnesty tries but they too are blinded with a false belief the UN is somehow neutral and not a US proxy army.

[ 24 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


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M. Spector
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posted 24 January 2007 08:19 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by a lonely worker:
At least Amnesty tries but they too are blinded with a false belief the UN is somehow neutral and not a US proxy army.
Amnesty International's track record in Haiti since 2004

Excerpt:

quote:
Amnesty's report of June, 2004 denounced the brutality of US marines who arrested Annette Auguste ("So Ann"), a popular folk singer and Lavalas activist. Her family members, including her 5 year old grandson, were handcuffed by the marines. However, Amnesty suggested that arresting her was justified by hastening to add "those suspected of responsibility for human rights abuses must be brought before a court of law." Kevin Pina, a US filmmaker who worked with Haitian journalists to capture images of the post coup terror, pressed Amnesty to recognize So Ann as a political prisoner. Amnesty's responded that it had "reliable information" that So Ann was guilty of crimes. Amnesty would not tell Pina who their sources were, but NCHR had publicly "saluted" So Ann's arrest. She would remain imprisoned for 20 months without being charged before Amnesty would finally concede that she was arrested "solely for her political views." She finally had her day in court in August, 2006 and was acquitted because no evidence was presented against her.

Amnesty also continued to use the word "Chimere" as if it were a term accepted by all Haitians to refer to armed Lavalas partisans. In fact, it was a term used by elites and the de facto government to stigmatize Lavalas supporters as criminals.

Kevin Pina explained: "This word was a highly partisan term used by those who supported Aristide's ouster, especially NCHR, to create a climate of terror and fear after Feb. 2004. Anyone accused of being a 'chimere' was marked for death or imprisonment without trial. Yet here was AI, a purportedly independent human rights organization, using the same politically charged language. I found it disgraceful."

The partisan language Amnesty used was indicative of other failings that would mar this report and their future work.



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a lonely worker
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posted 24 January 2007 08:27 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're right MS. The reason I mentioned Ai is because their site is at least somewhat critical of Haiti (in a very embarassed sort of way). If I wouldn't have mentioned it the usual suspects would have posted those comments as proof these human rights organisations aren't biased.

Your excellent quote absolutely ends that myth.

With the same old excuses removed hopefully people will get their heads out of the Miami Herald and actually see what real horrors south of Miami look like.

[ 24 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


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laine lowe
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posted 24 January 2007 08:32 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
a lonely worker wrote:

quote:
It also important to note that bastion of fiefdom, sorry "freedom": Human Rights Watch, is still working itself into a lather over things like Venezuela removing the amount of times the same candidate can run for office (which is the same law we have in Canada). Yet when one looks at their recent comments on Haiti the crickets are in full force. Typical neo-lib hypocrites.

I couldn't agree more. Human Rights Watch is just a US tool. They have little to say about Somalia as well.

I am disgusted with what is going on in Haiti and that Canada's hands are so bloodied. The MSM has ignored the horrors committed by UN "peace keeping" forces and western interests. I'm also dismayed that Preval has proven to be a US sponsored stooge.


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Stockholm
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posted 24 January 2007 08:46 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess you all agree with Bush and the Republican Right that the UN should be disbanded!
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laine lowe
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posted 24 January 2007 08:51 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's a stretch Stockholm. The UN should definitely be restructured so that it actually is more democratic and not ruled by the western-centric Security Council. Not to mention the fact that the US still exerts way more influence than any other nation in ALL international organizations including NATO and the World Bank.
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Fidel
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posted 24 January 2007 08:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I guess you all agree with Bush and the Republican Right that the UN should be disbanded!

The UN needs democratizing, like our two old line party system needs giving the heave-ho. And before you mention Cuba, the Liberals have been in power in Ottawa longer. Conservatives in Ontario and Alberta must come close in terms of consecutive decades with strangleholds on power.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 25 January 2007 05:57 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So your solution to the "stranglehold" of two parties is...a one party state where all other parties are illegal?

I guess apllied to the UN the equivalent would be to do away with the general assembly and the security council and just make the Secretary-General the dictator?

BTW: Have any countries in the UN actually come out against the UN interventionj in Haiti? In other words could the General Assembly have voted it down or was the intervention the product of a global consensus?


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Fidel
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posted 25 January 2007 08:39 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 25 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 25 January 2007 08:48 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
So your solution to the "stranglehold" of two parties is...a one party state where all other parties are illegal?

Dictatorship of the workers, yes. It would be a radical change after more than 100 years of plutocracy in Canada. Of course, the workers dictatorship should last for a definite period of time such that the very large concentration of wealth can be confiscated from a tiny minority of people who own political power today. One or two generations should be long enough to allow them to re-integrate with society and-or, breed themselves out of existence. Essentially, we'd like a society where one person equals one vote, not a handful of corporations and banks equalling an all encompassing political influence. It would be like when Hong Kong was passed back to China, and the white appointed ruler from Britain decided that democratic elections should be put in place leading up to the handover. It could be fun.

quote:
I guess apllied to the UN the equivalent would be to do away with the general assembly and the security council and just make the Secretary-General the dictator?

Start by removing veto power of a tiny handful of hawkish nations dominating the UNSC and apply straightforward democratic principles. Like our two old line party system where six million voters had no say in the matter, and several million more just stayed home last election for a lack of enthusiasm for more of the lies and deception, the UN could renew/legitimize itself as a democratic institution in world affairs through proportional democracy.

quote:
BTW: Have any countries in the UN actually come out against the UN interventionj in Haiti? In other words could the General Assembly have voted it down or was the intervention the product of a global consensus?

I'm not sure how the UNSC has voted on covert CIA actions in Haiti/DR. We do know our colonial administratorships in Ottawa have sent troops and police there to aid in the removal of at least one democratically-elected leader in this decade. That's the trouble with two party FPTP systems - they tend to create a permanent shadow government bureaucracy. Add vast concentration of wealth to the fold, and we end up with rule by a handful of special interest groups, kind of like the situation in Haiti only bigger.

[ 25 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 25 January 2007 09:41 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Dictatorship of the workers, yes. It would be a radical change after more than 100 years of plutocracy in Canada. Of course, the workers dictatorship should last for a definite period of time such that the very large concentration of wealth can be confiscated from a tiny minority of people who own political power today. One or two generations should be long enough to allow them to re-integrate with society and-or, breed themselves out of existence.

So why not form a political party and run on this platform in the next election? Heck, if you got 2% of the national vote you'd even get public financing to further promote your views.


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Fidel
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posted 25 January 2007 09:50 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by John K:

So why not form a political party and run on this platform in the next election? Heck, if you got 2% of the national vote you'd even get public financing to further promote your views.


Here's a poster who has volunteered to answer the question:

Why can't approximately 80 percent of Haitian electorate vote for Jean Bertrand Aristide if they want to? Good luck, John K.

final Jeopardy tune plays on


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 25 January 2007 10:09 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rene Preval got 90% of the vote in the subsequent election in Haiti and he is supposedly an ally of Aristide and is in power now.

But I find it hard to get all that excited about Haiti, its not as if they have ever had a government that accomplished a single solitary thing there. Aristides government did zilch and the country was evry bit as much of a poverty ridden basket case under his leader as it was under his predecessors and his successors.

maybe, they should ask France to re-colonize the place. They could do worse than to have the standard of living of Martinique or Guadeloupe where the per capita income is about the same as it is in Burgundy and the Cote d'Azur!!


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John K
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posted 25 January 2007 11:10 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd don't know which is more insulting or unhelpful. Posters like 'a lonely worker' that paint Haitians as hapless pawns of Western imperialism, or posters like Stockholm that paint Haitians as just plain hapless and suggest - perhaps tongue in cheek - re-colonization.
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jeff house
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posted 25 January 2007 11:42 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Here's the link but be warned the pictures are incredibly graphic and conclusive proof of these war crimes:

I looked at the pictures, which prove that someone was shot by someone.

Then, you have the testimony of the shot person, who denied that "the UN troops were shooting at gangs" bearing weapons.

So, if you believe her account, it was a war crime. If you don't, or if you suspect there may be two sides to the story, then it isn't.

Just showing pictures of wounds doesn't prove anything, much less "conclusively prove" it.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 25 January 2007 01:58 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Rene Preval got 90% of the vote in the subsequent election in Haiti and he is supposedly an ally of Aristide and is in power now.

So you're not going to answer the question?. It's a simple question really. I didn't think it was that difficult. What happened to your belief in multi-party democracy ?. Why should Haiti be an exception?. Haiti and the DR are both shitholes, and they're only 60 miles from Cuba.

[ 25 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


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mimeguy
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posted 25 January 2007 03:55 PM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A lonely worker
quote:
Aristide is currently "temporarily" in South Africa and is forbidden from returning to Haiti. As the original article mentions it was predominately Aristide's supporters from the banned Lavolas Party that propelled the current President Rene Preval to power. Preval promised he would allow Aristide to return. Once in power he decided he liked it and has since gone back on his word. When people realised they had been taken, they took to the streets and Preval unleashed our hired butchers in the blue helmets.

Aristide was not and is not ‘forbidden’ to return to Haiti. Preval has said that Aristide has the right, in accordance with the Haitian Constitution to return as a private citizen. He never once promised to reinstate Aristide as President and never ran on that assumption. There is no point to returning Aristide to the Presidency to finish the one and a half years left on his Presidency. Aristide had to have elections by November 2005 anyway and is barred by the Haitian constitution from running a second time. Aristide could not have run in these past elections no matter what.

laine lowe

quote:
I am disgusted with what is going on in Haiti and that Canada's hands are so bloodied. The MSM has ignored the horrors committed by UN "peace keeping" forces and western interests. I'm also dismayed that Preval has proven to be a US sponsored stooge.

- Preval is not a US sponsored stooge. He is trying to work with a horrendous situation. Haiti cannot recover without cooperation and International aid. It is disgusting what happened and Canada and Canadians should feel ashamed for our participation. Latortue is a war criminal and the Interim Government set up deals with the UN forces that actively prevent Preval from accomplishing many things, including a deal surrendering security authority to the approval of the UN security force. Aristide created much of the problems he experienced by not continuing with reforms set up by Preval.
quote:
quelar - All good questions, and hopefully we'll get some answers to these questions. I had a long discussion with a Haitian refugee about a year ago, and he said that Arastide was a corrupt jackass, and was the reason he left, but word he was getting back from home was that the "peacekeepers" were doing nothing but allowing the gangs to consolidate their power.

This is true. Aristide is a self-styled demigod more enamored with power than the hopes of Haitians. Aristide signed deals with the Dominican Republic in secret to create more ‘free zone’ style sweat shops and expropriated good farm land to do it. Aristide was already being confronted for lying and corruption before the coup took place. Aristide did very little to solve the corruption in the HNP (Haitian National Police) because they were of use to him. There are honest police officers in the force who are powerless because the hierarchy of corruption. It is also important to keep in mind that there is not one Lavalas Party. Lavalas split with Aristide forming Famni Lavalas. I have been traveling once a year to work in Cite Soleil since the coup happened and you can read one of our post project reports from last year if you like. http://www.twawareness.org/Post%20Project%20Report%202006.htm#In
The MINISTAH has bases on the edge of Cite Soleil but rarely goes in. The streets are blocked off to both UN and HNP forces. Except for the large operations recently described they rarely venture into Cite Soleil as this provokes immediate reaction from the gangs there. When I was there in May 2004 we walked around unmolested in Cite Soleil. The US marines were on regular patrols throughout. Gangs were on the run and in hiding and most of the people I spoke with were glad about that and the presence of soldiers. After the stabilization force of France/Canada/US gave way to the Brazilians and MINISTAH this all changed. MINISTAH forces withdrew and allowed the gangs to reform. Some of whom have protection under Andy Apaid. In order to crush Lavalas the Interim Government had to create chaos and did just that. We weren’t allowed to walk around by ourselves in May 2005 because it was too dangerous and we had to be escorted in by the school officials after obtaining gang permission. Gangs run Soleil and other places. These are mixed allegiances, some of whom are fighting the UN legitimately but others are frankly fighting for Aristide’s return so that they can be in charge again under his protection. Political gangs are used in Haiti much the same as they are in Kingston Jamaica. Others are fighting as a false front to look like patriots when in fact they steal, kill and extort from the local people on a regular basis. Haiti is a great source of slave labour and the elite have long standing relationships with US and Canadian corporations which developed under Duvalier. The history quoted in the above posts is true except that it has to be remembered and understood that most of the destruction in Haiti was invoked and caused by the Duvalier dictatorship that hated the elite as much as anyone else. But they were a means to an end and allowed to flourish. Duvalier wasn’t controlled by Washington. He quickly assessed that if he took a position against Cuba, Castro, and Communism, Washington would leave him alone to his own devices.

From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 25 January 2007 03:57 PM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A Lonely worker - In the anarchy that followed it has been conservatively estimated over 8,000 Aristide supporters have been massacred and over 35,000 rapes have occurred of Lavolas supporters.

This is a complete distortion of the facts from the Lancet report and others. These are crimes committed by gangs, criminals, and general bastards as well as UN soldiers and the HNP. They were not perpetrated on Lavalas supporters only. Crime is and was rampant in Haiti before and after the coup.

From - http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/haiti/2006/0307prospects.htm
Demoting Democracy, Selling Sovereignty

quote:
Preval’s authority with the police was severely limited by a controversial and far-reaching agreement reached between Prime Minister Latortue and Juan Gabriel Valdes, the head of the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH). The agreement grants MINUSTAH extensive authority over the police and government, including a) a right of consultation before any police operation; b) veto power over police promotions; c) access to all files of any government official or entity relating to the police; and d) veto power over international agreements relating to the police.
The deal has been controversial because it was reached quietly- it was signed in New York and not even the police chief or Justice Minister even knew about it until a week after the signing- and because it hands an immense amount of national sovereignty to MINUSTAH. But it should be equally controversial because it demonstrates a deep disrespect for Haiti’s voters, its Constitution and its democracy. The deal was signed on February 22, a week after the announcement of Preval’s victory, and five weeks before his (then) scheduled inauguration. If the agreement was appropriate to negotiate at all, it would have been appropriate to negotiate it with the President who would have to abide by it, and who also had the electoral and constitutional legitimacy to bind his country.
There was no reason why the deal could not have been negotiated with the elected President, other than a fear that the voters’ choice would not agree to it. It is not hard to understand why Prime Minister Latortue, who was never elected and is on his way out after two disastrous and unconstitutional years in office, would be willing to pull a fast one on his country and his Constitution. But the UN should be above such underhanded stunts.
MINUSTAH’s bad faith is magnified by the fact that the agreement grants it extraordinary control over a police force under an elected President, when the Mission refused to exercise even ordinary oversight over the force under the unelected dictatorship. Time and again MINUSTAH forces stood by while the police massacred prisoners, invaded neighborhoods and made illegal political arrests, insisting that their mandate prevented them from interfering in the police force’s internal affairs. The Mission that did not issue a single investigative report in almost two years of Mr. Latortue’s reign will now have access to President Preval’s personal diary if he writes in it about the police.
The agreement is unconstitutional and illegal, as Mr. Latortue was forced to concede once it became public, so President Preval is not legally required to recognize it. But he may be politically required to do so- MINUSTAH currently intends to stay for at least half of Preval’s term, and there is not much he can effectively do about it. With little money, a police force loyal to his unelected predecessor and the example of his predecessor flown to exile by the International Community, Mr. Preval’s bargaining position is weak.

http://www.gnn.tv/threads/13107/Two_Views_on_Aristide_Pr_val
From an L.A. Times article written by Carol J. Williams (I couldn’t find it in the archives so this is where I read it.)

quote:
“Preval has “always given fishy answers when asked about Aristide, but up to a certain moment he couldn’t say publicly what he told us,” said the ambassador of a South American country, who spoke on condition of anonymity. “He was pointing out to us that most of his projects and initiatives were abandoned by Aristide” when Aristide succeeded him.
That was among the reasons Preval withdrew from political life after his term ended.
“Preval was humiliated by Aristide. He fired all of his advisors and stopped his reforms,” a United Nations official observed, speculating that the president-elect has no real interest in bringing back a fiery populist who clamors for the spotlight.”

From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Abdul_Maria
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posted 25 January 2007 07:11 PM      Profile for Abdul_Maria     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But Washington's negotiators made one demand that Aristide could not accept: the immediate sell-off of Haiti's state-owned enterprises, including phones and electricity.

the American form of capitalism is killing us.

it's time to practice self-defense.


From: San Fran | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 25 January 2007 07:38 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But Washington's negotiators made one demand that Aristide could not accept: the immediate sell-off of Haiti's state-owned enterprises, including phones and electricity.

Abdul_Maria, that sounds like a demand not even Americans would accept. At least not in regard to electricity markets. After the deregulation disaster unfolded in California, 22 U.S. states put the kibosh to deregulated electricity markets. And Ontarian's turned their noses up at deregulated electricity markets once they realized light bills would go through the roof. Public Power is cheapest and bestest. Always will be.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 25 January 2007 10:06 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stockholm:

quote:
Rene Preval got 90% of the vote in the subsequent election in Haiti

Preval got 48.7% which was then retabulated to 51.5%. Do you believe everything you read in the Miami Herald?

quote:
maybe, they should ask France to re-colonize the place.

Maybe they should re-institute slavery too because Haiti seemed pretty well off (at least for the slave owners) when France last controlled the place. They all looked so happy in those old paintings!

mimeguy:

quote:
Aristide was not and is not ‘forbidden’ to return to Haiti. Preval has said that Aristide has the right, in accordance with the Haitian Constitution to return as a private citizen. He never once promised to reinstate Aristide as President and never ran on that assumption.

No one ever said Preval guaranteed Aristide the presidency upon his return.

Here's some quotes. One from your source:

quote:
Diplomats say they have been clear that Aristide’s return would be regarded as a destabilizing influence that would discourage aid donors as well as foreign investors.

Delatour said that Preval isn’t obligated to allow Aristide to return, even if many Haitians voted for him with that expectation.

“A politician’s first job is to get elected,” he said


Aristide received the same friendly advice about how a Haitian leader should behave from Washington too. Aristide balked, Preval asked where to sign.

Here's another article discussing how specious this claim of "right to return" really is:

'The Return': Aristide, Law and Democracy in Haiti

quote:

Haiti’s new President, René Preval, is asked about the return incessantly by the foreign press, and he gives a simple answer: no one besides President Aristide has the right to determine when and if he returns to Haiti.

Articles 41 and 41-1 should dispose of the discussion of the return, but once again Haiti’s Constitution is not allowed the last word. The countries that used their financial and military clout to remove President Aristide back in 2004 - the U.S., Canada and France - are now using their diplomatic clout to keep him out. The U.S., once again, is taking the lead, with its trademark faithfulness to a consistent sound bite. (then follows a series of quotes from Washington's elites warning Preval to not let Aristide back).

France’s Minister for Cooperation and Development, Brigitte Girardin, visited South Africa in April, and opposing Aristide’s return was high on her agenda for discussions with Foreign Minister Foreign Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma. Canada, France, and even some South American countries buttonholed South African President Thabo Mbeki when he went to Chile for President Michelle Bachelet’s March inauguration, to tell him not to allow Aristide’s return.

The fact that such a broad spectrum of non-Haitian officials and commentators feel they can pressure Haiti’s government to deprive a citizen of his Constitutional right to live in his homeland raises the second question: how much has democracy actually returned to Haiti, and how much democracy will the international community allow?

There are few, if any, precedents of the world’s powerful countries keeping a former elected President out of his own country, but that level of interference is routine for Haiti.


So yes he is techically "free" to return just as Mahar Arar is technically "free" to return to Syria.

quote:
Preval is not a US sponsored stooge

Of course not and neither is Stephen Harper or Paul Martin.

Again using your sources:

quote:
Preval surrounded himself during his low-key campaign with foreign-educated advisors, many with ties to other political factions and the private sector.

I suppose these "foreign advisors" are Cuban?


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 25 January 2007 10:35 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It wasn't a trick question by any means.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 26 January 2007 07:16 AM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why can't approximately 80 percent of Haitian electorate vote for Jean Bertrand Aristide if they want to?

I'll take "democracy only matters in countries we don't like" for 3 reichmarks.

[ 26 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 27 January 2007 08:15 AM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The UN has just done it again:

'Four dead' in Haiti UN operation

quote:
The UN mission in Haiti says four people were killed when its peacekeepers expanded their presence in the Cite Soleil slum of Port-au-Prince.

A spokesman said six other people were injured in what he described as exchanges of fire with criminals.

On Wednesday, when the operation took place, another UN spokesman had said there had been no reports of casualties or much of a reaction to the operation.

A local aid worker for the charity Medecins Sans Frontieres, Fabio Pompetti, told AFP news agency that three women had been wounded in Wednesday's clash and that one of them later died from her wounds.



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Stockholm
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posted 27 January 2007 09:14 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How do you know that they weren't all common criminals who fired the first shots?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 27 January 2007 10:03 AM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who just happen to be predominately women? Funny how so many bullets seemed to find them.

Just like in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[ 27 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


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BetterRed
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posted 27 January 2007 10:37 AM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That stuff is pretty tragic.
Its also quite confusing, with media either ignoring it or muddling the issue further.

I gotta say, this thread didnt clear much for me about the intricacies of Haitian politics.
So Aristide cannot run again, but supposedly free to return. Which gangs are supporing Preval?
Are there any that support theLavalas party?

And did the US explictly tell Preval to privatize electricity?
Also someone asked the question of why would the West care about Haiti so much, since it has no resources?
It would be nice if more links were posted. Thanks.


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 27 January 2007 10:41 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
How do you know that they weren't all common criminals who fired the first shots?

How do you know they weren't former members of Duvalier's secret police, the dreaded tonton macoutes, trained in the art of torture and murder by the infamous U.S.-based Skool of the Americas ?. Imagine being buried alive or your frigging hands chopped off for nothing, Stockholmer. There are some wicked sons-o-bitches on that island protecting the elite still.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 27 January 2007 06:07 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
BetterRed. We all share your frustration because our media and the main human rights organisations seem to have given a free pass on Haiti.

The only way to look at this is by objectively looking at the facts as we know them such as UN forces go in and civillians die. The few NGO's still there claim these are massacres. The victims by and large appear to be unnarmed women and children.

Anytime a Haitian leader (no matter how flawed) tries to speak out on behalf of an independant Haiti they either join the casualty list, end up in prison or forced to "temporarily" take a vacation in South Africa.

There is much we don't know about haiti and it appears those pulling the strings prefer it that way.


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Abdul_Maria
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posted 27 January 2007 06:58 PM      Profile for Abdul_Maria     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
just out of curiosity, how many civilian casualties has the United States created in Haiti, since World War 2.

i'm trying to get an idea of 2 different numbers - the number of Haitians that have died as a direct result of American aggression, and the number of Haitians that have died as a result of America, working through proxies.

i suppose in terms of coup d'etat's, the US has unseated Aristide, it seems, more than once in the last 12 years. my best remembrance is he got a very high percentage of votes, like 70% or 90%.

sad & paradoxical that this nation which teaches schoolchildren about democracy, has had 2 coup d'etat's itself (i'm referring to the USA, and the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections).

it's almost like Star Wars, with Bush & Cheney instead of Darth Sirius and Darth Vadar. Sirius is the brains so, in the metaphor, he's Cheney.


From: San Fran | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 27 January 2007 07:29 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some estimates put the number killed by the secret police(tonton macoutes) in Haiti at over 100, 000. Some background on the repression and terror in Haiti from the last century:

The CIAs Greatest Hits

quote:
US troops invaded Haiti five times, once staying for almost twenty years (1915-35). At the end of that prolonged visit, during which we killed thousands of Haitians for daring to rebel, we left the country in the hands of the local National Guard, confident that they'd carry on our good work.

From this arrangement emerged the Duvalier family dynasty and their private terrorist force, the machete-wielding Tontons Macoutes. "Papa Doc" Duvalier (he was a medical doctor) also relied on voodoo incantations and, during a 1959 uprising, the timely assistance of the US military. When Papa Doc died in 1971, his 19-year-old son, called Baby Doc, became "president-for-life." ...



From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
laine lowe
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posted 27 January 2007 10:37 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
More background reading (dated September 11, 2006):

HAITI - THE TRADITIONAL PREDATORS

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060911_haiti_the_traditional.php


From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 27 January 2007 11:03 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excellent article laine. It clearly lays out the hypocrisy.

In another US colony, similar tragedies are also going largely unnoticed:

Militias grab Colombia's best land

quote:
Much of the world has seen Colombia's heartbreaking civil conflict as a clash between illegal armies of the left and right, or a battle for control of the global cocaine industry. Tens of thousands have died.

But the real prize is land. Since the early 1990s, right-wing paramilitary militias have seized from peasant farmers an estimated 26,000 square miles — an area larger than West Virginia that comprises about a quarter of the country's arable land, much of it sitting atop oil or valuable minerals.

The government of President Alvaro Uribe is now dismantling the paramilitaries and says it will force former militia bosses to surrender ill-gotten holdings. But promises aside, it is backing policies that mean most farmers will never get their property back.

The winners are Colombia's elite — landowners, politicians and corporations who bankrolled the militias and used them to expand their holdings. The losers are people of humble means killed or forced at gunpoint to give up their land and join the hundreds of thousands displaced by the conflict.

Then, in 2002, Uribe was elected, and became a firm U.S. ally on a continent where several countries have turned left in recent years. Uribe cracked down hard on the left-wing guerrillas, while negotiating a peace pact with the paramilitaries in 2003.

More than 31,000 paramilitary fighters have demobilized under that pact, which provides the former fighters with $200 monthly stipends and job-search help, as well as reduced sentences for the leaders in exchange for full confessions.

But much of the country's political elite remains indebted to the paramilitary bosses, according to Sen. Gustavo Petro, a key critic of the terms of the demobilization. He says the private armies remain tools of the same power brokers who benefited from the land grab.

A Senate human rights commission hearing in late November drew nearly 1,000 people — but just two members of Congress — to a dusty stadium in San Onofre, the town where most of Sucre's mass graves have been uncovered. Witnesses testified that paramilitaries ran the seaside cattle town like a concentration camp as recently as 2005.

Paramilitary gunmen killed on a whim and took San Onofre's women as sex slaves, according to the witnesses, while a nighttime curfew let the "paras" transfer tons of cocaine to speedboats in the Gulf of Morrosquillo.


I understand there are close to 4 million refugees living within the country. Next to Darfur its the largest refugee crisis in the world.

But, as in Haiti, as long as our puppets do our bidding; what's a few attrocities between friends?

[ 27 January 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Abdul_Maria
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posted 28 January 2007 08:54 AM      Profile for Abdul_Maria     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Some estimates put the number killed by the secret police(tonton macoutes) in Haiti at over 100, 000.

thank you for the information.


From: San Fran | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 28 January 2007 09:21 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I find it hard to believe that the "powers that be" could care less about Haiti. It has to be just about the most worthless piece of real estate in the western hemisphere. No natural resources, no wealth, just a lot of incredibly poor and violent people. I suppose sometimes when your neighbour's house is burning down you have to help put out the fire, but really if the American are willing to squander one penny on a worthless failed state like Haiti then they are even dumber than I though.

Please note:

quote:
The military operation was said to have been personally sanctioned by President Rene Preval, who was elected last year with support from Aristide's Lavalas movement.
sanctioned with support from Aristide's Lavalas movement.

[ 28 January 2007: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 January 2007 09:23 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You are such a enlightened thinker.
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Fidel
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posted 28 January 2007 10:36 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He's a dumb ass-deluxe, for sure.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 January 2007 10:47 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I find it hard to believe that the "powers that be" could care less about Haiti.

That's because they DO care, Stockholmer. The Yanqui imperialists have sent troops to Haiti five times. With Canada's help, the imperialists REMOVED a democratically-elected leader with an estimated 80 percent support of the electorate. In this decade!

Why can't approximately 80 percent of Haitian electorate vote for Jean Bertrand Aristide if they want to? Because his presidential term wasn't up yet before the CIA sent him away. As in, this isn't the first time something like this has happened in Latin America. They have an oppressive plutocracy in Haiti, Stockholmer. Very rich people living within sight of the poorest people in this hemisphere. How do you think those people became wealthy in the first place ?. Do you think they did it by saving up to be rich, fcs ?. Of course the land is stripped bare and depleted from over-use?.

Warshington wants to maintain Haiti as the "freest trading nation in the Caribbean." Washington has more interest in Haiti than you do, apparently. Cuba's 60 miles away, Stockholmer. Do you think CIA action in Haiti is to ensure Cuba isn't so isolated anymore?. Use your head for something more than a hatrack,ffs.

[ 28 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 28 January 2007 12:14 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
...if the American are willing to squander one penny on a worthless failed state like Haiti then they are even dumber than I though.
What's missing, the comma or a 't'?
Should it read "dumber than I thought" or "even dumber than I, though"?

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 28 January 2007 12:26 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Everyone knows Aristide was a totally corrupt flop as President. Nothing improved one iota when he was in power. The only thing that increased was the level of violence.

But now the current President is from Aristide's own party and he seems to be supportive of the UN's role.

Haiti has to be just about the most UNinteresting flashpoint in the world. There are no good guys, no broader principles or ideologies, just a lot of rival warlords fighting it out.


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Coyote
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posted 28 January 2007 12:29 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Every once in a while, Stockholm, you come up with something so inane I think you have to be putting on an act. This is one of those times.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 28 January 2007 12:32 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What's the matter, Stockholm, not black-and-white enough for you to be interested in?

Maybe if you actually read something more than the neo-liberal line touted by the MSM you wouldn't make such ridiculous statements as "Everyone knows Aristide was a totally corrupt flop as President."


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 January 2007 12:37 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Everyone knows Aristide was a totally corrupt flop as President. Nothing improved one iota when he was in power. The only thing that increased was the level of violence.

Never mind that you have no proof Aristide was corrupt, or the mountains of evidence to the contrary, Haitian's CHOSE Aristide because he wasn't a lackey of the rich like the string of U.S.-backed, brutal right-wing dictators before Aristide was democratically-elected.... by the people!

Democracy is ALL ABOUT choices, Stockholmer. Ya friggin hypocrite.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 28 January 2007 12:44 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You don't favour free elections in Cuba, so why do you care about whether or not elections are respected in Haiti?

At least haiti had an election last year and the winner Rene Preval is now President. What more do you want?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 28 January 2007 12:48 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They also had democratic elections in which the people of Haiti decided something other than what the power-brokers in the IMF wanted. So the West moved in and removed that option.

I wonder if part of the reason why the West is there is because of our history there. For whatever reason, places like Afghanistan and Domingue have been flash-points of Western imperialism for as long as they have been on our maps.

And every time, we will civilize them.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 January 2007 12:53 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
You don't favour free elections in Cuba, so why do you care about whether or not elections are respected in Haiti?

And is there any wonder why ?. Do you think Haiti should be held up as an example for Cuba just 60 miles away ?. They should say to Cubans, yes, you too may have right-wing death squads and oppressive rule by a wealthy but tiny minority?. No thanks, they'd say, Stockholmer. They got rid of a U.S.-backed mafia regime that just wouldn't cede democratic power under multi-party demockracy until 1959.

quote:
At least haiti had an election last year and the winner Rene Preval is now President. What more do you want?

It's not what "I" want, it's what approximately 80 percent of the Haitian electorate wants And they want to vote for Jean Bertrand Aristide! Why is that not possible if free and fair elections are happening in Haiti, Stockholmer?. I think you're the biggest hypocritical babbler around if you don't mind my saying so.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 28 January 2007 02:22 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, it's obviously ridiculous to favour free elections as a matter of principle in Haiti, and not favour free elections in Cuba.

You say: "Is there any wonder why" but don't provide an actual reason, other than the apparent fact that Cuba is better off than Haiti.

But, of course, the US or Canada are far better off than Cuba, except to the blind. So, that's not an argument.

Those of us who favour democracy favour elections in Haiti, and support those who are disgusted by the coup against Aristide.

But we're honest, too, and so we support those same elections everywhere.

We don't modify our principles when our favourite happens to be in power, "Fidel".

[ 28 January 2007: Message edited by: jeff house ]


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 January 2007 02:46 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Well, it's obviously ridiculous to favour free elections as a matter of principle in Haiti, and not favour free elections in Cuba.

And I'm glad you seem to be disagreeing with Stockholmer here, because try as they might in Haiti, free and fair elections just don't seem to be happening since well before U.S.-backed Papa Doc demanded that children in Port Au Prince recite the Lord's prayer, and with "Papa Doc" in place of "our Father." The DON'T need any more unfair and unfree elections in Haiti. What they need is a bloody revolution, and to cut the elite and their henchmen adrift for Miami. It worked wonders for Cubans in 1959.


quote:
You say: "Is there any wonder why" but don't provide an actual reason, other than the apparent fact that Cuba is better off than Haiti.

What's the infant mortality rate in Haiti, Jeff? What's the per capita GDP, as if it would make a difference to mothers in the slums of Port Au Prince boiling up a pot of grass soup today for them and theirs.

quote:
But, of course, the US or Canada are far better off than Cuba, except to the blind. So, that's not an argument.

You're damn right it's not an argument. Try comparing apples with apples. Cuba is an island nation. They don't have the shitload of oil and gas and electric power and timber being carted off to the States everyday at firesale prices, like here. Try comparing Cuba with an island nation of similar area, population, and proximity o an oppressive nuclear-powered fascist uberpower. You'd have more credibility if you compared Cuba with freely trading Vancouver Island, or Newfoundland, or how about Haiti?. It's only 60 miles from Cuban shores, Jeff.

quote:
Those of us who favour democracy favour elections in Haiti, and support those who are disgusted by the coup against Aristide.

And we can be sure Cubans would agree with our total disgust of the unfair, unfree, U.S-influenced elections in Haiti.

quote:
We don't modify our principles when our favourite happens to be in power, "Fidel".

[ 28 January 2007: Message edited by: jeff house ]


It's just that the U.S-favourites always seem to win in close-by nations like: El Salvador, Guatemala, DR, Mexico, Honduras, Belize, Puerto Rico, and Haiti. Ever notice that?. Have you ever noticed the grinding poverty in those countries , Jeff, while an elite few control vast tracts of land handed about 13 families during Spanish colonial times?.

Principles are good. Just don't point to Haiti, just 60 miles from Cuba, and suggest that U.S.-intervention in multi-party elections there is a case for allowing CIA spooks to run all over Cuba in setting up another oppressive hellhole ruled by an elite few.

[ 28 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 28 January 2007 03:18 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
IF the US or anyone interferes with free elections, they should be denounced and opposed.

Haitians have the right to a government they choose, and that is a fundamental principle.

Similarly, it is a fundamental principle that Cubans have the same right.

The fact that the US opposes elections in Haiti is no reason to oppose them in Cuba. People who honestly believe in elections favour them everywhere.

Others do not believe in elections when THEY are in power.

That's what the US does in Haiti. That's what you do when opposing elections in Cuba.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 January 2007 03:35 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Cubans decided against multi-party elections in 1959 when they threw out the U.S-backed mafia regime, Jeff. In case you hadn't noticed, the ultra right-rightists still have a Jones on for Cuba. And Haiti, too, apparently.

It's like the U.S. bullshitting the rest of the world that they are under constant threat by terrorists for no reasons whatsoever. "They hate us for our freedoms." There's no mention of hating innocent Iraqi men, women, and children for their oil though. Only, the Cuban's have proof of U.S.-based terrorist attacks against their island nation. The situation is a state of medieval siege on Cuba, like North Korea, Libya, Iraq, Soviet Union etc. It's time the hawks dropped the cold war bullshit and simply allowed democracy to happen. And they should start by going gently into that goodnight themselves. Helms-Burton and the extra-territorial trade embargo is totally psychotic.

And so is ignoring anti-Cuban terrorists in their midst entirely undemocratic and at odds with what they claim to be trying to achieve with the so-called war on terror. Luis Posada Carriles is a murderer, and the Miami-based terrorists are a menace to Cuban rights to exist in peace and with security.

The Yanks should begin to foment an air of democracy and extending a courtesy to Cubans by closing down the torture gulags at Gitmo, and getting the hell off the island. And then we'll still tell the Yanks to piss off with their U.S.S.A-managed elections. They need democracy in their own country first, and here in Canada, too.

Viva la revolucion!

[ 28 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 28 January 2007 06:10 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Cubans decided against multi-party elections in 1959 when they threw out the U.S-backed mafia regime,

"The Cubans" didn't decide anything in 1959. castro and the Communists took power using guns. Its not as if there waws ever an election to show that the Cuban people wanted a one party totalitarian state.

You know perfectly well that if there was a free fair multi-party election in Cuba now, people would reject the Communist party in a split second because after almost 50 years of autocratic rule, they will want some change.

Admit it. You're against elections in Cuba because you know that Castro would probably lose and to you elections are only allowed to happen when the people you like win.

I've been to Cuba and its nothing to write home about. You can't walk five steps without being proportioned by prostitutes desperate to get money to supplement their pathetic wages. There are plenty of doctors, but there are no antibiotics or decent medical equipment. Everyone you talk to there just goes on and on about how badly they want to escape because life there is so sullen and grim.

Battista weas overthrown almost 50 years ago. Don't you think its about time you stopped defending every human rights abuse in Cuba by saying "well Battista was even worse".


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 January 2007 07:13 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You'll get more business propositions in Miami by far, Stockholmer, including the kind where your goods are retrieved from the trunk of a car. And prostitutes in Havana all have family physicians and guaranteed access to preventative maintenance. Don't try to bullshit them though, because most of them have B.A.'s. I'm not sure I'd want to trust the girls being looked after by private health insurance in Miami, but I'd keep your piece in your pants either way.

[Lt. Columbo on]Ooh! And there's one more thing that's been botherin me, sir. You never did answer la question.

cio chica


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 29 January 2007 11:06 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel, perhaps 'la question' isn't being answered because you can't give an intelligent answer to a stupid question.

On what basis do you presume that 80% of Haitians would vote to return Aristide to the presidency?

Haiti voted in a presidential election less than one year ago.

Aristide's political party largely backed Rene Preval in that election. Preval won the election with over 51% of the votes on the first ballot in a crowded field of several dozen candidates. Guy Phillipe (the leader of the coup against Aristide) got less than 2% of the vote.

Preval's margin of victory would likely have been bigger had the election being completely free and fair. But regardless Preval is now the elected President of Haiti.

So on what grounds do you question Preval's legitimacy as President?


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 29 January 2007 11:52 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well it's obvious you don't have a clue as to what's been happening in Haiti. If you were any more stupid, there'd have to be TWO of you.

And it's a simple question, really. Perhaps you can help US understand what part of it you're having trouble with. In the mean time, if you can't answer la question, then step away from the podium, you moron.

[ 29 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 29 January 2007 03:38 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel, if you expect an answer to 'la question', it is reasonable to ask for evidence to support the assertion it contains. You have provided none.

Those of us who live in the relative safety and comfort of Canada do the residents of Cite Soleil no favours when we try to reduce their daily struggle for survival into a fight between good guys and bad guys.

A blog by a medical doctor working in Cite Soleil paints a much more complex picture:
http://www.dyinginhaiti.blogspot.com/

This is an excerpt from his post last Saturday:

quote:
Today I went back into Cite Soleil to work. I work with an order of Catholic Sisters who have a large pediatric clinic, a school with 600 kids, a malnutrition program, and a sewing class for hundreds of women from the slum. Only six sisters are present and live across the street from the clinic. Two Haitian pediatricians work in the clinic.

The front of the Sisters’ home is pock marked with bullet holes. Yesterday, Soleil, with 300,000 people was “closed” due to shooting between the UN (MINUSTAH) troops and the gangs.

The Haitian gangs are locally referred to as chimere which means dragon. These gangs have spearheaded the massive number of kidnappings during the past year in Haiti and many believe are part of the narcotic industry as well. They are extremely violent and carry automatic weapons that keep the Haitian police out of the slum.



Read the rest

From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 29 January 2007 03:58 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
John, Aristide still enjoys a higher percentage of support in Haiti than President Dubya does in the U.S., or Hamid Karzai, and even our current colonial administratorship in Ottawa elected with just 24 percent of the eligible vote. The election results for Aristide's victory are all over the web, so don't be lazy, do a google search and get with it. Most of us in this thread already KNOW the tragic history of U.S. military influence in and CIA's covert actions to maintain a string of oppressive right-wing dictatorships in Haiti. So no, we're not as confused as you seem to be about the source of oppression and interventions to deny democratic choice in Haiti. You should read Jeffrey Sachs' criticisms of the Bush regime's policies for Haiti leading up to the CIA kidnapping of a democratically-elected leader on the island.

Aristide is more legit than all of those cosmetic leaders listed above. So back to the question, or the thread topic, whichever you prefer ...

Next batter!

[ 29 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 30 January 2007 07:40 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A Lonely Worker
quote:

quote:
________________________________________
Preval is not a US sponsored stooge
________________________________________
Of course not and neither is Stephen Harper or Paul Martin.
Again using your sources:
quote:
________________________________________
Preval surrounded himself during his low-key campaign with foreign-educated advisors, many with ties to other political factions and the private sector.
________________________________________
I suppose these "foreign advisors" are Cuban?


Rene Preval has made efforts to go beyond the occupying forces especially the U.S. I have recently heard on the haitixchange forum which I am a member that Venezuela has given Preval 100m dollars recently. I am still looking for a source but here below will answer your last question above as to whether his foreign advisors are Cuban. The source below also talks about the possibility that Bush’s administration would like to get Haiti off its agenda and might not retaliate against any of Preval’s ‘new’ alliances.

http://www.coha.org/2006/05/13/rene-preval-haiti-may-get-one-last-chance-in-spite-of-washington%E2%80%99s-best-efforts/

quote:
Not only has the president-elect initiated his efforts on the domestic front, but he has already made various strategic foreign visits, and has attempted to build a consensus with the international forces that have had a historic presence in Haiti, such as the U.S. and Canada. However, he is also attempting to form new alliances elsewhere, with Cuba and Venezuela for example, breaking away from a traditionally Washington-controlled Haiti.
SNIP
Préval has also moved his diplomacy into new international arenas, somewhat to the dismay of Washington, which already warily associates him with Aristide—who the State Department abominated. In April, Préval visited Cuba and Venezuela, where he discussed aid in health care, education, and electricity. The Préval-Castro meetings were particularly significant since the country is in dire need of the doctors Cuba could provide, as well as medical training for Haitian students in Cuba’s universities. Following the Havana visit, Préval had a 24-hour stay in Venezuela on April 24, where he discussed with Chávez possible Venezuelan aid in health and education, as well as Haiti’s entry into Venezuela’s Petrocaribe program, which provides poor Central American and Caribbean nations with discounted or bartered oil. Assistance from Cuba and Venezuela could play a key role in Préval’s attempt to rebuild Haiti.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Free_Radical
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posted 30 January 2007 07:55 AM      Profile for Free_Radical     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
And prostitutes in Havana all have family physicians and guaranteed access to preventative maintenance.

Women aren't trucks or machinery that need "maintenance", Fidel. They're human beings.

You sound about as enlightened as Japan's minister of health.


From: In between . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
mimeguy
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posted 30 January 2007 08:00 AM      Profile for mimeguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rene Preval won a decisive victory as President but his party, Front for Hope does not have decisive victories in the Senate nor the Chamber of Deputies. He did not win enough seats to even choose the Prime Minister and must form some form of coalition government according to the constitutional make up of the Haitian government. The President can win decisively as President but he doesn’t have ‘carte blanche’ to rule. We are often blinded by the Presidential elections and forget the government as a whole.
I don’t like wikipedia in general but could not find other sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_elections,_2006#Legislative_elections

Summary of the 7 February 2006 Haiti Senate election results

Parties Votes % Seats

Front for Hope 68,487 18.95 13
Rally of Progressive National Democrats 433,438 10.69 1
Fusion Haitian Social Democrats 400,852 9.89 4
Fanmi Lavalas 330,413 8.15 2
Struggling People's Organization 243,047 5.99 3
Christian National Union for the Reconstruction of Haiti 174,757 4.31 2
L'Artibonite in Action 110,775 2.73 2
Democratic Alliance Party 247,361 6.10 1

CMNH 199,711 4.93 0
MHP- 149,282 3.68 0
JP&D 134,437 3.32 0
Tčt Ansanm 97,050 2.39 0
NRF - 94,600 2.33 0
BCRF - 84,327 2.08 0
IMNR - 74,895 1.85 1
Bridge (Pont) 45,407 1.12 1
other parties 465,493 11.48 0
Total 100.0 30

Summary of the 7 February and 21 April 2006 Haiti Chamber of Deputies election results

Parties Seats
Front for Hope 23
Fusion of Haitian Social Democrats 17
Christian National Union Reconstruction 12
Struggling People's Organization 10
Democratic Alliance Party 10
L'Artibonite in Action 5
Mobilization for Haitian Progress 3
Christian Movement for a New Haiti 3
Rally of Progressive National Democrats 1
Fanmi Lavalas 1
National Reconstruction Front 1
MRN 1
Independent Movement Nat.Reconciliation 1
KONBA 1
Justice for Peace and Development -
Tčt Ansanm -
Broad Centre Right Front Bridge -
other parties -
Total 99


From: Ontario | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 January 2007 11:57 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Free_Radical:

Women aren't trucks or machinery that need "maintenance", Fidel. They're human beings.

People are human beings, whether they live in Cuba or Miami or New Orleans. And human beings do require health maintenance! The kind of maintenance which tens of millions of human beings are denied everyday in the United States for lack of health insurance and-or inadequate coverage. And that would include the tens of thousands of prostitutes in the United States who don't see a family physician as is true of prostitutes living in nations with socialized medicine and are encouraged to participate in their own preventative medicine.

And I don't appreciate your snide remarks or your feeble attempt to derail us from the thread topic. Keep it up and I'll complain to the moderators.

[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Free_Radical
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posted 30 January 2007 12:46 PM      Profile for Free_Radical     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
And I don't appreciate your snide remarks or your feeble attempt to derail us from the thread topic. Keep it up and I'll complain to the moderators.

Needless to say, I don't appreciate your sexist, de-humanising language. Feel free to complain to the mederators about that.

quote:
Originally posted by mimeguy:
Rene Preval won a decisive victory as President but his party, Front for Hope does not have decisive victories in the Senate nor the Chamber of Deputies. He did not win enough seats to even choose the Prime Minister and must form some form of coalition government according to the constitutional make up of the Haitian government.

That's probably the best that can happen to Haiti at the moment - a broad coalition government. The "winner take all" attitude has been a major cause of the country's problems for a long time now.

[ 30 January 2007: Message edited by: Free_Radical ]


From: In between . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 30 January 2007 01:41 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Free_Radical:
Needless to say, I don't appreciate your sexist, de-humanising language. Feel free to complain to the mederators about that.

The word "maintenance" is used by health care workers around the world. In fact, USian "HMO" stands for Health Maintenance Organization. So educate yourself on the many uses of that term, and I did use it in reference to preventative medicine, the very cornerstone of universal health care in Canada and 29 other developed countries, including Cuba but not U.S.A.

It's not sexist, I never meant it to be sexist, and it's clear you're instigating a fight here. You can either apologize to me or cease with the baseless accusations, one or the other. I've sent a link to your first personal attack to the moderator. Nice going.

quote:
"The armed insurrection which contributed to unseating President Aristide on February 29, 2004, was the result of a carefully staged military-intelligence operation. The rebel paramilitary army crossed the border from the Dominican Republic in early February. It constitutes a well armed, trained, and equipped paramilitary unit integrated by former members of FRAPH, the "plain clothes" death squadrons, involved in mass killings of civilians and political assassinations during the CIA-sponsored 1991 military coup, which led to the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Aristide. During the military government (1991-1994), FRAPH was (unofficially) under the jurisdiction of the Armed Forces. According to a 1996 U.N. Human Rights Commission report, FRAPH had been supported by the CIA." -- Michael Chossudovsky, University of Ottawa

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 February 2007 04:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel is right. I think this is a smear, Free_Radical, and the thread shouldn't be derailed by it.

Hopefully the discussion can continue now.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
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posted 02 February 2007 07:43 AM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Finally there is starting to be some attention to these ongoing massacres:
Civilians caught in crossfire during Port-au-Prince raids

quote:
The head of the UN mission to Haiti has publicly acknowledged international peacekeepers carrying out anti-kidnapping raids into the poorest parts of the city have to do more to avoid civilian casualties. His comments come after a series of raids in the capital, Port-au-Prince, in which witnesses said a number of innocent bystanders were either killed or wounded by peacekeepers.

"We have to improve, we have to be all the time learning from this," said Ambassador Edmond Mulet, head of the United Nations Stabilisation Mission in Haiti (Minustah). "We have learned lessons every time we have [had] these actions."

The envoy denied reports that UN peacekeepers had fired from helicopters, hindered Red Cross volunteers or used "heavy munitions" in the raids on December 22, December 28 and January 5. But during his presentation this week at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) he admitted: "There has been collateral damage. Definitely."

It is unclear how many people were killed in the December 22 raid in the densely-populated slum areas of Cite Soleil when several hundred Brazilian UN soldiers launched a pre-dawn raid aimed at capturing known gang leaders.

John Carroll, an Illinois-based doctor who runs a charity that provides medical aid to Haitian children, said he travelled to Cite Soleil after the raid and spoke with people who had been injured. He also visited St CatherineŐs Hospital, one of the few clinics in Cite Soleil.

"I spoke with the family with holes in their roof. They said the helicopter fired down on Cite Soleil for 3 hours. I saw the holes in the roof and the holes in the people," he said.

Following the December raid, Johnny Claircidor, a resident of Bwa Nef, told the Reuters newsagency, "The foreigners came shooting for hours without interruption and killed 10 people. Then Belony's gang members started to exchange fire with them. I personally counted 10 bodies."

In July 2005 a UN raid, again in Cite Soleil, resulted in the death of up to 23 people. The raid was carried out to target a gang leader, Dread Wilme, but later Minustah admitted that civilians may have been killed "given the length of the operation and the violence of the clashes". It emerged UN troops had fired more than 22,000 bullets.

Since the beginning of January UN forces have set up round-blocks around Cite Soleil in an effort to dampen violence. But some activists say such arrangements, along with disruption to the areaŐs fragile water supply, has only made life more miserable for the residents. Brian Concannon, who heads the US-based Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti, said: "This is beginning to resemble collective punishment against the residents of Cite Soleil. There is more to this than just the issue of gangs and alleged kidnappers."


Of course Jeff House will dispute all of this by saying "I see 22,000 spent bullets, UN gunships in the sky, holes in the roofs of shanties, people shot up, photos and eyewitness reports but let's not be hasty and jump to any conclusions." (or some such nonsense).


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 02 February 2007 10:09 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Of course Jeff House will dispute all of this by saying

Of course you will try to put words in my mouth in a most dishonest manner.

If you want to have threads which scream of proof of "war crimes", based on almost nothing, go ahead.

And, if you want to restrict the allegations of "war crimes" only to the activities of those countries on your enemies list, again, go ahead.

And if you then demand proof to the most exacting standards when it comes to YOUR favourite countries and politicians, again, go right ahead.

But don't ask anyone to take your arguments seriously, because it's impossible.

Other babblers will keep on trying to apply the SAME standards to all countries and leaders. We don't like hypocrisy.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 February 2007 11:01 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, a lonely worker, how about letting jeff house speak for jeff house, okay?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 February 2007 12:25 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here is a piece by Kevin Skerrett that we published a couple of days ago.

quote:
In a January 15 interview with Haiti's Radio Solidarité, Canada's ambassador to Haiti, Claude Boucher, offered unrestrained praise for the UN military forces currently occupying Haiti and urged them to “increase their operations as they did last December.” The reference is unmistakably to an attack on the neighbourhood of Cité Soleil, marketed by its architects as an action against “armed gangs” but which left many innocent people dead and injured.

From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 February 2007 01:16 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From Kevin Skerrett's article, re:Christmas massacre:

quote:
Even the acknowledged facts of this episode are deeply disturbing. This was a military assault carried out against a residential neighbourhood by the very military force — UN “peacekeepers” — that is charged with protecting that same population.

This is all happening because Haiti's aristocracy and Washington refuse to allow democratic choice in Haiti. It might as well be Henry Kissinger whining that Haitian's can't be trusted with democracy. Democracy in Haiti is as much a sham now as it has been since the first U.S. military intervention several decades ago.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 February 2007 01:16 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle, my post was in direct response to jeff's earlier post on this thread:

quote:
I looked at the pictures, which prove that someone was shot by someone.

Then, you have the testimony of the shot person, who denied that "the UN troops were shooting at gangs" bearing weapons.

So, if you believe her account, it was a war crime. If you don't, or if you suspect there may be two sides to the story, then it isn't.

Just showing pictures of wounds doesn't prove anything, much less "conclusively prove" it.


But to not upset anyone else I will withold from quoting (or paraphrasing) Jeff again while he waits for "conclusive" proof there just might be something wrong in Haiti.


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 February 2007 01:28 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ask the democratizers what's wrong with an island nation just 60 miles away, and they don't ponder all angles and suggest that anything is unclear or obscured in that situation. Democracy doesn't exist in Haiti, but by gum, what's happening in Haiti is exactly what they're advocating for Cuba whether they want to admit it or not. Democracy in Uncle Sam's backyard is a lie. No country in Latin America holds free or fair elections without U.S. coercion, including those countries where leftists have won election, and in Venezuela where the people managed to reverse a CIA-instigated military coup.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 02 February 2007 01:29 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
And, if you want to restrict the allegations of "war crimes" only to the activities of those countries on your enemies list, again, go ahead.
Isn't that exactly what your favourite "international" criminal "court", ICTY did?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
John K
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3407

posted 02 February 2007 04:41 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But to not upset anyone else I will withold from quoting (or paraphrasing) Jeff again while he waits for "conclusive" proof there just might be something wrong in Haiti.

Of course there are things wrong in Haiti. In my view there are also things wrong with the UN mission.

MINUSTAH is supposed to be a peacekeeping mission. Peacekeepers wearing the blue helmets of the UN risk its reputation by involving themselves in something approaching counter-insurgency or seeking revenge against armed groups.

All of the MINUSTAH peacekeepers are from developing countries, mostly from Latin America. I wonder whether they have sufficient training and discipline to de-escalate rather than escalate things when provoked by armed thugs.

And it's all well and good to use Dr. John Carroll as a source when he criticizes the heavy-handedness of the UN peacekeepers. But funny how some babblers chose to ignore his even more scathing criticism of the armed criminal gangs who terrorize the citizens of Cite Soleil while masquering as their liberators.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 02 February 2007 05:17 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I sometimes think you just type for the sake of typing. Can you substantiate anything whatsoever in your post ?. Because we happen to believe you're full of it... again!. And make sure to quote a U.S.-friendly source when you do get back to us. We'll be right here where you left us hanging in suspenders.

[ 02 February 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
John K
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3407

posted 02 February 2007 05:51 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I sometimes think you just type for the sake of typing.

Funny thing, I've often thought the same about you Fidel.

To verify what I said about the composition of the Haiti peacekeeping force, read Appendix I of the December 19, 2006 report of the UN Secretary General.
HAITI MINUSTAH report

Dr. John Carroll's Haiti blog is available here:
http://www.dyinginhaiti.blogspot.com/

His recent post 'Saint Anthony and the Dragons' is particularly relevant to what I said in my previous post.

And not a U.S. friendly media source in the bunch. Imagine that.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 February 2007 06:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
When MINUSTAH is not shooting into the slum from their tanks they are taking pictures of everybody on the street that looks like gang members. MINUSTAH tries to kill or capture them and then turn them over to the Haitian National Police. The chimere were afraid I had their pictures and would turn their pictures over to MINUSTAH. I also knew that a free lance photographer was shot and killed by gang members yesterday for taking photos of them.

Sounds like minustah are a treacherous bunch of bastards to me, John. Apparently they shot up a maternity ward in a hospital a year ago too. Does Nuremberg Code allow for such actions by a "peace-keeping" force ?. And it sounds to me like Haitians in Montreal didn't think very highly of Pierre Pettigrew or his Liberal government pals for being complicit to serious U.S.-orchestrated crimes that have taken place in their country since the CIA-kidnapping and removal of the people's democratic choice in Haiti.

What do you make of former PM PM's advisor to Haiti, Denis Coderre and his denunciation of University of Miami Law School's documentation of the violence and repression by Haiti's National Police as "propaganda".

[ 02 February 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9893

posted 02 February 2007 11:09 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
John K:

quote:
All of the MINUSTAH peacekeepers are from developing countries, mostly from Latin America. I wonder whether they have sufficient training and discipline to de-escalate rather than escalate things when provoked by armed thugs.

Yes that must be it, damn those colonial armies they're not disciplined enough! Where's a good lash when you need it?

Seems their "disciplined" Canadian overseer's think they're doing a bang up job at killing the "thugs" and want them shooting up even more "thugs" and the neighbourhoods they live in according to the article posted by Sharon:

quote:
In a January 15 interview with Haiti's Radio Solidarité, Boucher offered unrestrained praise for the UN military forces currently occupying Haiti (identified by the French acronym MINUSTAH), and urged them to “increase their operations as they did last December.” These forces have operated in Haiti with Canadian backing since shortly after Haiti's elected government was overthrown in a coup d'état in February 2004.

Speaking of "thugs" seems this term is catching
on in neo-lib circles:

quote:
In the lexicon of political insults it will take some beating. Already known for his somewhat colourful use of language Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez has probably written himself into the history books for a new sidewipe at his US counterpart George Bush.

In the latest salvo in the war of words between the two countries Mr Chávez described Mr Bush as "evil," a "criminal" but then added that he was "more dangerous than a monkey with a razor blade".

Nancy Pelosi, the new speaker of the house and a Democrat, said of Mr Chávez's earlier remarks at the UN that "he fancies himself as a modern day Simón Bolívar, but all he is an everyday thug."


Chávez makes a monkey of Bush

More dangerous than a monkey with a razor blade. Classic!

[ 02 February 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
John K
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3407

posted 03 February 2007 10:29 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dismissing MINUSTAH peacekeepers as 'a treasonous bunch of bastards' or 'colonial armies' closes the door to any kind of intelligent discussion about what is actually taking place in Haiti. There really is no point in trying to provide a substantive response to such mindless rhetoric and name calling.
From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 03 February 2007 11:13 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well lucky day! Here's your chance to defend Bush's and permanent shadow government's policies for removing a democratically-elected leader in Haiti. I think that Lavalas and its former supporters are a bit jaded with the democratic experience in Haiti.

If 70 percent of the island nation is denied their democratic choice for leadership, wouldn't you feel like there was something wrong in your country while foreign troops maraud and shoot up those same neighborhoods that are Aristide's support base?. Explain away, JK.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
laine lowe
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posted 03 February 2007 10:21 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wonderful work we are doing in Haiti [sarcasm]:

quote:

Civilians caught in crossfire during
Port-au-Prince raids

By: Andrew Buncombe, The Independent Feb-03-2007

...John Carroll, an Illinois-based doctor who runs a charity that provides medical aid to Haitian children, said he travelled to Cite Soleil after the raid and spoke with people who had been injured. He also visited St CatherineŐs Hospital, one of the few clinics in Cite Soleil.

"I spoke with the family with holes in their roof. They said the helicopter fired down on Cite Soleil for 3 hours. I saw the holes in the roof and the holes in the people," he said. "I went to St. Catherine's Hospital in Cite Soleil. I did not interview any doctors. I examined the patients myself and their stories seemed to correspond with their injuries."

Mr Carroll said that in the slum he spoke with a woman who gave her name as Immacula. She said that three of her daughters - aged 13, 15 and 17 - received bullet and shrapnel injuries as a result of the raid. Mr Carroll wrote on his blog: "Immacula said the bullets from the helicopter came blasting in through their ceiling. Looking up, I could see a 12 inch hole above my head letting in the sunlight, and multiple other smaller holes peppered the roof above me to the left."

Minustah say they have been tasked by the Haitian government, headed by President Rene Preval, to carry out the raids against gang members believed to be responsible for the kidnappings that in recent months have again soared in Port-au-Prince. In one notorious incident last month a group of schoolchildren were taken from the bus and held hostage. It is predominantly the poor who suffer as a result of the ongoing insecurity.

The December 22 raid in the Bwa Nef district of Cite Soleil targeted a gang led by a man called Belony. Officials said a subsequent raid on January 5 led to the arrest of two members of BelonyŐs gang, including a man called Zachari, who were sought over the their alleged involvement in the killing of two UN peacekeepers from Jordan last November.

But local people and campaigners point out that given the densely populated nature of the slums and the fact that the shanties in which people live offer no protection against gunfire, such raids routinely result in innocent people being killed. The UN and the Haitian National Police also claim that gang members in the slums have shot residents and then blamed the authorities for these deaths - a claim for which no evidence has been offered.

Following the December raid, Johnny Claircidor, a resident of Bwa Nef, told the Reuters newsagency, "The foreigners came shooting for hours without interruption and killed 10 people. Then Belony's gang members started to exchange fire with them. I personally counted 10 bodies."

The series of raids over Christmas and the New Year were not the first time the 7,000-strong UN peacekeeping force in Haiti has been at the centre of controversy. In July 2005 a UN raid, again in Cite Soleil, resulted in the death of up to 23 people. The raid was carried out to target a gang leader, Dread Wilme, but later Minustah admitted that civilians may have been killed "given the length of the operation and the violence of the clashes". It emerged UN troops had fired more than 22,000 bullets...


http://www.canadahaitiaction.ca/article.php?id=240


From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
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posted 04 February 2007 10:20 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And what a swell country it is now that the wealthy elite and UN are forcing democracy on the majority. It's the same-old same-old in Haiti.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
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posted 31 March 2007 09:16 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In early January, Brazilian Major General Carlos Alberto Dos Santos became the fourth commander of the UN force in Haiti (consisting of 8,360 total uniformed personnel, as of 30 November 2006). Dos Santos said, "We are going to work in the same way as we have worked before. Nothing has changed about our mission or our obligations."

Since Dos Santos made that commitment, UN military operations have killed seven-year-old Stephanie Lubin, four-year-old Alexandra Lubin, and nine-year-old Boadley Bewence Germain, all guilty of living in the crossroads of George W. Bush's foreign policy.

More and more Brazilians are appalled at their country's role in MINUSTAH. On February 7 of this year, 6,000 protestors, mostly youth, marched through Rio de Janeiro's city center to demand the immediate withdrawal of Brazil's troops from Haiti. By continuing to do Bush's dirty work in Haiti, Lula has tied his country's destiny to a sinking ship. Before it is too late, he needs to join the rest of the world in recognizing that the Bush Administration's policies of global dominance are both morally wrong and unlikely to bring positive results. - Source


When is the last time 6,000 Canadians marched in the streets to demand that Canada withdraw its troops from Haiti?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
John K
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 April 2007 10:28 AM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canada doesn't have any troops in Haiti as part of the current UN Mission.
From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 April 2007 11:21 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When did they leave? Because apparently there were Canadian troops in Haiti last September. And some of them were accused of making rape and death threats to the locals.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 01 April 2007 12:02 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canada sent a team of JTF2 commandos to Haiti four days before the coup against Aristide. They took control of the Port-au-Prince airport on February 29, 2004. About 30 Canadian special forces soldiers secured the airport and two sharpshooters were positioned on top of the control tower overlooking the tarmac. The canadian Defence Ministry says "More than 100 CF personnel and four CC-130 Hercules aircraft...[were deployed] to assist with emergency contingency plans and security measures."

Within a couple of days after the February 29, 2004 coup more Canadian troops arrived. Canada sent about 500 troops and six CH-146 Griffon helicopters in March 2004 as part of the UN-sanctioned Multinational Interim Force (MIF). The Canadian mission was called Operation HALO.

After MINUSTAH took over from MIF in June 2004, Operation HALO continued and Canadian forces returned to Canada in August.

At present Canada contributes both military and police personnel to MINUSTAH. Canada is contributing up to 100 civilian police in MINUSTAH and a Canadian served for two successive terms until August 2006, as Police Commissioner for MINUSTAH. The police personnel are mainly from Canada's now disgraced RCMP. They have been "training" the Haitian national police, who have committed hundreds of murders in Haiti since 2004. There are also Canadian civilian "advisors" in practically every ministry of the Haitian government.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9443

posted 01 April 2007 01:03 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Operation Hamlet

Currently, there are four Canadian Military Officers serving in Haiti with the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH).


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 April 2007 04:24 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That link (vintage August 2006) mentions "four staff officers" serving in senior positions at MINUSTAH Headquarters. It does not mention police, regular military troops or special forces.

But those four highly-placed Canadians in MINUSTAH are guilty of complicity in MINUSTAH's campaign of repression and killings.

As recently as last September, Canada had "66 police officers in Haiti leading the UN's police force" (UNPOL).

quote:
Two RCMP officers have been in charge of the UN Police Mission (UNPOL): David Beer, who came to Haiti directly from Iraq in May 2004, where he was teaching counter-insurgency tactics, and Graham Muir, who replaced Beer as Commissioner in mid-2005.

Muir commands a 1,600-strong, UNPOL contingent that includes 100 [later increased to 125] RCMP and Quebec Provincial Police officers, under the mandate of the Brazilian-led UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH). It is responsible for training and overseeing the Haitian National Police (HNP). Muir takes part in all high-level, planning and strategy meetings, both military or policing. - Source (.pdf)



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 April 2007 05:10 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why can't 70 percent of the Haitian electorate vote for Jean Bertrand Aristide if they want to ?.

Does Ottawa slash our two old line parties not believe in democracy ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

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