quote:

---

I am a Canadian who is very disappointed with your recent articles regarding the upcoming American ELection. Please do not ever pretend that I need the likes of you to determine what I can and can not look at, AVERT YOUR EYES ARTICLE, and never, think that you speak for me.

---

Ktown, you're 0 for 2. Not so good. If you don't like rabble, babble or Heather M, then you don't have to read them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:
Could someone define when it is acceptable to call a large group of people "white trash" or babble and when it is not?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
Touching to see such a display of solidarity here. Funny how most white people can't even figure out when they are offensive toward FN people or POC but as soon as the "white trash" label is posted, you all seem to be deeply offended.

Funny how that works.

---

It is too crude a construct to be acceptable in sociological analysis, since it is too broad, takes in too many assorted bits of humanity who have wound up in dire straits for too many reasons.

I once came close to living in a trailer myself. Problem around here is, local governments want to get their pound of flesh (taxes) out of all residents, so you don't get the large congregations of easily labelled people in trailer parks of U.S.infamy. The poor are more spread out. The kids from impoverished homes are smaller groupings in the classrooms; still hungry and still needing that lunchtime help, but in smaller numbers.

I still hope that Heather takes up Deer Hunting With Jesus and refines her analysis. But that is the only criticism I have of her piece - for which she has paid dearly, even with a vicious piece of work from the bowels of babble itself.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
Touching to see such a display of solidarity here. Funny how most white people can't even figure out when they are offensive toward FN people or POC but as soon as the "white trash" label is posted, you all seem to be deeply offended.

Funny how that works.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
Heather is a provocative, enetertaining columnist who often uses hyperbole as it is meant to be used. I was provoked to think and entertained by this column. And yeah, many Republican supporters are white trash...

---

White folks who are proud to be ignorant and intolerant are white trash and it's all over the US - truckers hats and Kid Rock baby. White trash is in today's society a culture of willful prideful ignorance and they are laughing at the lefties "weeping and gnashing of teeth" over the "insult" white trash. Suckers.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
You may have a point regarding class but as far as racism goes you can forget it. White folks are the dominant race in the US and here, racism my ass.

White folks who are proud to be ignorant and intolerant are white trash and it's all over the US - truckers hats and Kid Rock baby. White trash is in today's society a culture of willful prideful ignorance and they are laughing at the lefties "weeping and gnashing of teeth" over the "insult" white trash. Suckers.

Forest for the trees lefites, forest for the trees.

---

Mallick is well-off, obviously, and denigrating people who are poor as dumb and trash.

Here is what
wiki says:

quote:

---

The term white trash originated in the Baltimore and Washington, DC area during the 1820s post-revolutionary war reconstruction boom. During that period, many poor people migrated to the area, and white and black semi-skilled workers were competing for the same jobs, resources and marriage partners.[1] The term white trash first came into common use in the 1830s as a pejorative used by upper-class United States southerners of all races against poor whites.[citation needed] It was synonymous with the slurs sand hiller and clay eater. White trash were hyperbolically assumed to farm ineptly on poor land, and therefore resort to eating clay in order to survive.[citation needed]

In 1854 Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote the chapter "Poor White Trash" in her book A Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin. Stowe tells the reader that slavery not only produces "degraded, miserable slaves", but also poor whites who are even more degraded and miserable. The plantation system forced those whites to struggle for subsistence. Beyond economic factors, Stowe traces this class to the shortage of schools and churches in their community, and says that both blacks and whites in the area look down on these "poor white trash".[1] Sociologist Max Weber described white trash as "[those] not owning slaves

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghislaine:
Mallick is well-off, obviously, and denigrating people who are poor as dumb and trash.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
You may have a point regarding class but as far as racism goes you can forget it. White folks are the dominant race in the US and here, racism my ass.

---

As Michelle pointed out, the phrase is racist
because "white" is there as a qualifier. The underlying assumption being that all other races are trash, so a term is needed to describe white trash. It is not racist towards whites - but towards other groups. As well, the South, bible belt and religious fundamentalism, poverty and ignorance are not a whites-only domain. What would Mallick call those of other races that are "trash" by her definition?

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: Ghislaine ]

By the same token, i think she went way too far in attacking Sarah Palin's family. Totally classless. Calling Bristol a pramface? This is totally classless garbage. This has nothing to do with conservativism or republicanism or any issue at all. Some people say that Heather Mallick makes them think. Think about what? There is not one identifiable political or liberal issue in her article.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sven:

Whoops! Ghislaine said "denigrating"!

---

I cling to such U.S. and Canadian ideals, and to hell with descending to redneck or white trash levels in my daily life.

But to see reactions emerging like this at a time when, in fact, that brief interval of time when "liberal" meant acceptable tolerance and not the position of a "sucker"...it's hard.

Joe Bageant's whole purpose of writing Deer Hunting was to contrast the social decency of his youth (mind you, with many battles to be won for racial equality) and the current viciousness across cultures and class ("Dispatches from America's Class War") . He despairs, and frankly, so do I. But I know, also, how easy it is to sneer - and worse - from the shadows. And I put it down to the venting of frustration by a few. Hopefully, nothing worse than that.

And, then, maybe we're looking at another 1920s Germany, not long before der Fuhrer took up the reins?

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Victor:
And, then, maybe we're looking at another 1920s Germany, not long before der Fuhrer took up the reins?

---

The more things change....

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Victor:
Joe Bageant's whole purpose of writing Deer Hunting was to contrast the social decency of his youth (mind you, with many battles to be won for racial equality) and the current viciousness across cultures and class ("Dispatches from America's Class War") . He despairs, and frankly, so do I. But I know, also, how easy it is to sneer - and worse - from the shadows. And I put it down to the venting of frustration by a few. Hopefully, nothing worse than that.

---

I flipped over to Amazon.com to check out "Deer Hunting for Jesus". One reader’s review included the following:

quote:

---

The authors of most books on working class America are like scientists looking at some bizarre pathogen through a microscope; Bageant doesn't approach working class people as specimens to be studied, he actually sits down and talks (a lot) and drinks (a whole lot) with them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
You may have a point regarding class but as far as racism goes you can forget it. White folks are the dominant race in the US and here, racism my ass.

White folks who are proud to be ignorant and intolerant are white trash and it's all over the US - truckers hats and Kid Rock baby. White trash is in today's society a culture of willful prideful ignorance and they are laughing at the lefties "weeping and gnashing of teeth" over the "insult" white trash. Suckers.

Forest for the trees lefites, forest for the trees.

---

That's part of what I was trying to get at in the previous thread but couldn't quite get my tired brain to work. Regardless of the terms origins or use, racist, classist or other wise, if in using it in a way that's meant to expose people for who they are true or not, it doesn't. Except to those that already know or are on board. So it might be cathartic or entertaining and 'true' to say it like it is, but a way to get people to 'see the light' um no.
I know people who wear that moniker with pride, same with 'redneck.' and various other incarnations. In the US instance, the repub strategy is to enforce that pride. Has been for years. So broadly imo that people who we on the left would never consider as white trash do associate with that group. So the guy writing from New York, considers that part of his 'group' and reacts accordingly.

Someone calls them 'white trash' and it's not an insult in the sense that it's exposing some enlightened truth about who they are and they get all upset. The reaction, "Yep I am. Suck it up. That's just another typical, liberal, leftie *insert various incarnations of elitist description* yapping and whining from people who just don't get it or get how awesome we are. fuck em and *insert tirade and threats here*

So yeah it is an insult but in the political climate today it doesn't mean what it seems people think it means and I somewhat agree with Scout.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

quote:

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That's how a lot of working class people think of progressive politicians’ and activists’ views about working class people—as pointed-headed intellectuals staring at “some bizarre pathogen through a microscope”. Many who claim to be champions of the working class don’t know bumpkiss about working class culture (not so much the economic matters but the social views). Barack Obama is a good example of such a progressive. He’s totally out of his element with Palin—doesn’t understand her or the millions of working class people who identify with her. It’s also the reason he may lose this race.

---

You certainly buy into the media discourse pretty easily.

Barack Obama actually worked as a community organizer in working class neighbourhoods in Chicago work that has attracted derision from the likes of McCain and Palin.

What does Palin know of the working class she is not working class her background is middle class, just because she appeals to a virulently reactionary element within the working class does not mean she understands the working class, with all likelihood she holds them in contempt.

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
You certainly buy into the media discourse pretty easily.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:

You certainly buy into the media discourse pretty easily.

Barack Obama actually worked as a community organizer in working class neighbourhoods in Chicago work that has attracted derision from the likes of McCain and Palin.

What does Palin know of the working class she is not working class her background is middle class, just because she appeals to a virulently reactionary element within the working class does not mean she understands the working class, with all likelihood she holds them in contempt.

You also make the mistake that all members of the working class are virulently reactionary, you also seem to be speaking only of the white working class.

---

I agree with the comments about Obama, he likely does more then any of them.

Palin doesn't need to understand the working class. She only has to understand how to work the narrative or the grouping that the Repubs have created around it.

quote:

---

Mallick is well-off, obviously, and denigrating people who are poor as dumb and trash.

---

Palin isn’t poor and neither are most “hockey mom” she’s been hired to draw. White trash isn’t about being poor anymore. Most “white trash” are comfortable middleclass. They just are ignorant and intolerant on purpose and made trucker hats high fashion.

quote:

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Hell has indeed frozen over when Scout and I are in agreement.

---

Then we must be right then.

quote:

---

As Michelle pointed out, the phrase is racist because "white" is there as a qualifier. The underlying assumption being that all other races are trash, so a term is needed to describe white trash. It is not racist towards whites - but towards other groups. As well, the South, bible belt and religious fundamentalism, poverty and ignorance are not a whites-only domain. What would Mallick call those of other races that are "trash" by her definition?

---

Well I disagree with Michelle. I don’t hold her as an expert on the subject or an authority and I disagree. It’s allowed. Ghislaine you remind me of someone with your constant tsking but I can’t put my finger on it.

quote:

---

For a classy dressdown of the candidate by a well-known feminist progressive, look no further than Maureen Dowd. She's a woman who knows how to write, and make people think.

---

As soon as someone says “classy” alarm bells go off for me. In this scenario it’s suggesting women who say things with a snarl and aren’t offended by the word cunt aren’t doing it right. We aren’t “classy” and that’s as sexist as it gets. It dictates a code of acceptable behaviour we have follow to communicate to be taken seriously, that’s also classist.

This notion that we must some how rise up and speak with dignity and class is so elitist that it makes me howl with laughter that people are upset about the use of the words “white trash” but then seem to have no problem suggesting that people debate on classier level. “Don’t swear it’s not classy” type shit. Hello hypocrites. You’ll talk down to them gently because you’re better and smarter – but you won’t call them white trash but you’ll treat them that way anyway.

quote:

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Funny, I've always associated the name "Scout" with the little girl opposite Gregory Peck in "To Kill a Mockingbird".

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"Classy"? I use it as definition C, "admirably skillful and graceful".

quote:

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Originally posted by Scout:
Most “white trash” are comfortable middleclass. They just are ignorant and intolerant on purpose and made trucker hats high fashion.

---

quote:

---

there's a reason why Maureen Dowd makes a difference

---

Does she now? And Heather doesn't? I disagree.

Sorry, your spin isn't convincing me. No matter if I have to go to Merriam-Webster and pick c, that definition still stinks of classism, and the word "grace" still smacks of sexism associate with being "classy and graceful".

quote:

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lso, i don't know why you called me sexist because i used the word classy. that's reaching a bit, i'd say.

---

Well then re-read my post as I explained it.

quote:

---

As soon as someone says “classy” alarm bells go off for me. In this scenario it’s suggesting women who say things with a snarl and aren’t offended by the word cunt aren’t doing it right. We aren’t “classy” and that’s as sexist as it gets. It dictates a code of acceptable behaviour we have follow to communicate to be taken seriously, that’s also classist.

---

Her quote: "White trash ... is rural, loud, proudly unlettered, suspicious of the urban, frankly disbelieving of the foreign, and a fan of the American cliché of authenticity."

Yep, chuck 'em out. The whole lot. No use using reason or arguments on 'em, like a good writer, just dismiss them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fischerville:
my main thesis is that the progressive movement could use a better mascot.

---

I don't think Mallick pretends to be or that anyone here takes her as the progressive movement's "mascot".

quote:

---

I just thought that rabble.ca and cbc.ca editors had higher standards.

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quote:

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You see sexism where it's not. I read Antonia Zerbisias, Maureen Dowd, Gail Collins, Chantal Hebert, Christie Blatchford, Diane Francis, Barbara Kay and Caroline Glick religiously. All of them make me think.
Heather Mallick makes me shake my head.

---

Mallick is a first-class journalist and Canada is lucky to have her. But she does occasionally lapse into elitist and classist vocabulary and I think her usage of white trash is one of those times. But I got over it pretty quick. It turns out people don't always agree with me.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: Catchfire ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:

Well you keep pretending that your smugness about being above the muck and PC isn't classism at it's worst. You're too good to be crass.

---

quote:

---

If she squints, I think Heather Mallick can probably see the the tips of Christie Blatchford's and Barbara Kay's heads when they peep their heads out from under the sludge in which they trade.

---

I read all stripes of columnists because it's generally well-considered to think about stuff instead of just playing in a little ideological pond. How can you disagree with an argument unless you know what the argument is? Is the best thing you can say about Heather's article is that it was "crass"? In my experience, the quality of logical argument is directly inverse to the number of personal attacks in that attack. Am i alone?

a) "Bristol has what is known in Britain as the look of the teen mum, the 'pramface.'"
b) "Todd looks like a roughneck"
c) "Levi 'I'm a fuckin' redneck' Johnson"

Still wondering if anyone has a counter-argument that doesn't devolve into calling me a sexist, classist, elitist, crappist, englishist, argumentist on the second sentence.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: fischerville ]

quote:

---

Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?
While you are all debating small delicate things about whether I am a nasty piece of work and should I receive your guarded approval or limited hatred, here's what I'm up against, out of hundreds of racist, women-hating, sick emails I received today on my website, admittedly almost entirely from Americans.

--------------------------------------

And I hope this is adequately "on topic" bcg...I do hope that we can get off the "small delicate things" like ego, etc.

And thanks for the wiki history, Ghislaine. These things help mightily.

---

---------------

Heather is appealing for help here. And I think she wrote the column in a mood of fear, wanting to jar her reader into an awareness of just how bad it looks for us all, "while you are all
debating small, delicate things..."

I've been hoping to see someone say something like "Gosh, I've never seen her like this. Her writing goes beyond her usual push at the pale of mainstream literary acceptability.

"Maybe she's running scared. Maybe I should be."

Does anyone out there feel more than a little upset about Republican fortunes in the U.S., a surprise at the degree of social penetration by the far right? A wonderment at their fixation on the task of creating a theocratic state?

I think more than one or two, perhaps? I certainly am, and Bageant does not provide balm.

I just wish Heather had been up to revealing her own fears without resorting to the language of the folks she's trying to describe.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fischerville:
Can you tell me, Scout, what good was served by Heather's vicious attack on Sarah Palin's family?

a) "Bristol has what is known in Britain as the look of the teen mum, the 'pramface.'"
b) "Todd looks like a roughneck"
c) "Levi 'I'm a fuckin' redneck' Johnson"

Totally useless. I thought maybe if the redneck quote was from his Facebook page or something, that would have made a point. Not sure if it is or not.

---

It IS from his facebook page, taken down as soon as it caught media attention.

ETA: There seems to be an assumption on the purpose and intent of the column, on this thread and others. Several posters have articulated that the kind of language and vitriol will not win over Palin supporters -- But is that really the intent here?

I would argue that it isn't, and that this is neither a fair nor relevant criticism.

I also think sometimes you need to call things what they are. Isn't that what columnists are supposed to do? Mallick is not a social worker, for pity's sake.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: Timebandit ]

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: Timebandit ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Victor:
Does anyone out there feel more than a little upset about Republican fortunes in the U.S., a surprise at the degree of social penetration by the far right? A wonderment at their fixation on the task of creating a theocratic state?

---

quote:

---

The term white trash originated in the Baltimore and Washington, DC area during the 1820s post-revolutionary war reconstruction boom. During that period, many poor people migrated to the area, and white and black semi-skilled workers were competing for the same jobs, resources and marriage partners.[1] The term white trash first came into common use in the 1830s as a pejorative used by upper-class United States southerners of all races against poor whites. It was synonymous with the slurs sand hiller and clay eater. White trash were hyperbolically assumed to farm ineptly on poor land, and therefore resort to eating clay in order to survive.

In 1854 Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote the chapter "Poor White Trash" in her book A Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin. Stowe tells the reader that slavery not only produces "degraded, miserable slaves", but also poor whites who are even more degraded and miserable. The plantation system forced those whites to struggle for subsistence. Beyond economic factors, Stowe traces this class to the shortage of schools and churches in their community, and says that both blacks and whites in the area look down on these "poor white trash".[1] Sociologist Max Weber described white trash as "[those] not owning slaves

---

It was not started as a racial juxtaposition, for comparative synopsis to those who were "black, yellow or brown trash". Indeed, it was a stand alone classist pejorative used against poor whites, by both blacks and whites. Which is a fact that some know/knew, and as Mallick quite obviously does.

She adroitly, in my view, turned the historically classist term around to apply to those, who in other times would have used such a classist term againt poor whites whom were marginalized. As such, she indicates exactly who the "white trash" are in our society today, and really indicates who they were in history too, and thus her use of it is indeed not "classist" in this sense.

Moreover, her use of it most definitely is not racist in construct, nor latent intent.

Now, beyond that, I agree with scout in respect to her comments to fisherville regarding his use of classy as a sexist weapon against women. And I feel that it is a truly classist and sexist construct, that is more destructive and heinous, than anything Mallick said, or rather did not say...

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timebandit:
[QB]

ETA: There seems to be an assumption on the purpose and intent of the column, on this thread and others. Several posters have articulated that the kind of language and vitriol will not win over Palin supporters -- But is that really the intent here?

I would argue that it isn't, and that this is neither a fair nor relevant criticism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
I think that columnists should be using their position to win over fence-sitters in these scary divisive times, and I believe that throwing insults at our cultural opposites is counterproductive to this. Others disagree. That's fine.

---

If "fence sitters" took offense to what Mallick was saying, and the mirror that Mallick was holding, then I would argue that they indeed are not fence sitters.

In fact, I suggest the opposite should/would/could be true. That if some looked in the mirror that Mallick held up, and saw themselves in it, and were disquieted by what they saw. It would motivate them to not be that which they saw.

Moreover, your use of "cultural opposities" could well be even more of an insult than what you perceive Mallick as doing, as it could denote a self-perception of superiority to them. As it could be construed as meaning "less cultured".

I do not think it is a columnist's job to try and win over anyone. I believe it is their job to expose and then let people decide where to go with what they see. "Trying to win over" smacks of condescending propaganda, to me.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: remind ]

"I called Palin "white trash" (why? because she is white and she is trash...)"

Ok, so we can safely dispense with the "white", because we can all agree Sara Palin is trash right. Can we safely assume that all white trash are just a sub-group of the people we call trash? And that these trash people are defined by their conservative views?

I live in a neighbourhood that is populated by a quite a number of eastern european canadians. many of whom hold conservative views. they're white. they're working hard, they're raising young families, they're proud of where they came from, but glad for a change. they're saving up dimes to buy a big house in a cookie-cutter subdivision in York Region (i can't really figure out why, but... moving on), or sending money home to bring their grandmothers over. Oh, and they routinely pick up furniture they see discarded on the side of the road. These are all generalizations, but i've lived here long enough to see my stuff disappear off the curb in two minutes or less.

quote:

---

Are conservative-minded people trash

---

I know there are a lot of people who were writing her such incredibly nasty things (up to 374 posts on the CBC website). They're not civil, not reasonable, and not worth talking to.

But not trash.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: fischerville ]

quote:

---

If Heather Mallick had written a scathing article about fascists, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But there is a vast gulf between the murderous ideology that killed so many people, and ordinary "hillbillies" who shun knowledge of things foreign.

---

Palin is in our field of reference because she is a elected official, other than that we would not know, or even care about who she was or what she did. And she is someone who is being put into a potential placement of the 2nd highest office, of the most abusive use of military power in the world. As such, those who are judging her, as trash, do so in the context of her political actions historically, and what her stated position is on things that would/could impact upon all of us in the future.

Indicating that she is trash that should be chucked, is a political context, not a personal individual one. Please do not conflate the 2.

My older boy routinely tries to tell his younger brother he is a "turd", an offense for which he loses computer/video game privileges for 24 hours. Why? Because i learned growing up to treat people as if they have personal value. No one is a turd, and no one is trash, no one can be just thrown out.

Why is the death penalty wrong? Why were the gas chambers wrong?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scout:
You may have a point regarding class but as far as racism goes you can forget it. White folks are the dominant race in the US and here, racism my ass.

White folks who are proud to be ignorant and intolerant are white trash and it's all over the US - truckers hats and Kid Rock baby. White trash is in today's society a culture of willful prideful ignorance and they are laughing at the lefties "weeping and gnashing of teeth" over the "insult" white trash. Suckers.

Forest for the trees lefites, forest for the trees.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scunt:

Still a toxic cunt, I see. I would have thought that you would have wound up in the hospital by now at the hands of your significant other, which is where most loudmouth, hate filled shrews wind up sooner or later.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bigcitygal:
Done, the troll is gone.

---

quote:

---

Go see a pyschiatrist before your hurt yourself

---

And thanks for being you, Scout, and not that guy. Even though I completely disagree with you on whether "white trash" is sexist and racist or not.

[ 11 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]