quote:

---

"I want to go and talk to the Dalai Lama," Mr. Anders said Thursday.

"Partly, by doing so, I think we're highlighting the issue, but, as well, I want to ask him about the cultural genocide that is going on there."

Mr. Anders compared this year's Beijing Olympics to the 1936 Games held in Berlin when Germany was under Nazi rule, arguing that China is the wrong choice to host the Games.

"I absolutely 100% think it compares to the Berlin Olympics in 1936," he said.

"You've got Falun Gong practitioners, which are not allowed to participate in the Olympics. Adolf Hitler had issues with Jews being able to participate in the Olympics in 1936."
...
Mr. Anders called China "the worst human rights violator in the world, right now."

"And, I think their record in terms of deaths and atrocities far overshadows those in the Second World War. If you look at the people who were killed during the Great Leap Forward and the cultural revolution under Mao, it makes the deaths on the Russian front in the Second World War look small in comparison," he said.
...
"If people could see the forced labour camps [in China], they would understand. . . . There's goods that are being purchased in Canada today that are made in forced slave labour, in Chinese labour camps."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
Funny how Anders's remarks didn't make the news until Bob Rae decided to grandstand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
http://tinyurl.com/4em8wx

I'm sure Anders will be rebuked by Bernie Farber and the CJC just as surely as Elizabeth May was.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:
Do we know he hasn't?

---

Has Bnai Brith been contacted? ACJC? Independant voices, Friends of Simon Wiesenthal or anyone else?

I ask because it seems to me that their are many more groups that issue many more public statements than just the cjc.

I think that the focus must begin to be expanded to include all Jewish groups

especially because in talking with my local green party candidate I was told that May got calls from Jewish groups, federations, synagogues and even Hadassah Chapters after her remarks.

Maybe the CJC was not the only ones who cared.

[ 23 April 2008: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

Robert Fulford: By attending the Beijing Olympics, Canada is helping keep China's violent and oppressive government in power

(why does the NP use these insanely long urls?)

[ 23 April 2008: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
The organized and rational extermination of Native people in Canada is pretty much out of the Nazi play book, or I should say the Nazi regime is pretty much out of the Indian Act play book.

---

Here is a short essay about that.

[ 23 April 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

The only email response so far was from Mr. Farber.

he indicated that a letter was sent to Anders yesterday and he explained that the office had been closed for Pesah from friday noon until yesterday.

He sent me a portion of the letter and I am satisfied that they tore anders a new bum hole.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Farber told me that "personal communication works best" and the CJC only goes public if approached directly by the media.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Farber told me that "personal communication works best" and

---

Yes, of course. No point in embarrassing our Tory friends if it can be avoided or mention them in any op/ed pieces or editorials - not when there are plenty of liberals and leftists who could be held to task.

quote:

---

the CJC only goes public if approached directly by the media.

---

So who wants to test this by writing an article for rabble or their local weekly on Anders and calling Farber for comment?

[ 23 April 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by johnpauljones:
I emailed cjc, bnai brith and friends of Simon Wiesenthal because I was and am disgusted by Anders. He is a twit and an embarassment.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:
So I have read the articles regarding May and her comments. Its pretty clear that the media went to farber not the other way around. Though here on Babble it doesn't surprise me one little bit that you would insinuate otherwise with absolutely no proof. I say that one of you oh so brave souls should write an article for Rabble and get that quote. Seems at the very least that farber is not hiding from these questions he has responded to Lord Palmerston, JPJ, and petsy. Not exactly trying to hide his view despite attempts here to suggest otherwise.

---

Ohara says the May articles show that the press went to the cjc. That is exactly consistant with what Farber has told anyone who asks.

And what about Miles question to jpj? Where are all the other voices. Did anyone call them here?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
Funny, ohara does the exact same thing. I don't even see anywhere in this thread (unlike another one recently) in which ohara is upset by the use of the Nazi analogy. Are you upset by this ohara??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
AkaMycroft and Lord palmerston are in my view acting like hypocrites. How do you know Farber won't write an op-ed mentioning Anders?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Because Farber's past habit of mentioning liberals and left wingers who make such analogies while overlooking right wingers as seen in his op/ed piece in which he only mentioned liberals, suggests a bias. I'm waiting for an example of Farber taking a conservative to task and it looks like I'll be waiting for a long time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Because Farber's past habit of mentioning liberals and left wingers who make such analogies while overlooking right wingers as seen in his op/ed piece in which he only mentioned liberals, suggests a bias. I'm waiting for an example of Farber taking a conservative to task and it looks like I'll be waiting for a long time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:
Actually I just finished reading this infamous editorial that Farber has written. Have you read it akaMycroft? If so you would have noticed that he did take to task a right wing institution in Toronto-the Toronto Sun itself for running an editorial cartoon that portrayed David Miller as a Nazi.

akaMycroft I ambeginning to believe you will look for anything that paints your favourite villain as the evil one. Thing is petsy is right , you are so caught up with this you now stretch credulity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:
Actually I just finished reading this infamous editorial that Farber has written. Have you read it akaMycroft? If so you would have noticed that he did take to task a right wing institution in Toronto-the Toronto Sun itself for running an editorial cartoon that portrayed David Miller as a Nazi.

---

True, I was thinking politicians rather than editorial cartoonists - but lets' make up a scorecard of Farber's targets in his op-ed

Of liberals Farber mentioned:
Al Gore
Elizabeth May
Irene Atkinson
Andrew Telegdi
Jean Lapierre

and on the right he mentioned:
Andy Donato

Farber overlooked several conservative prominent politicians but did mention the Sun's editorial cartoonist adding that "to his credit, then editorial page editor Lorrie Goldstein apologized for his decision to run it."

Yeah, I guess 5 to 1 is a "fair and balanced" ratio.

Too bad he didn't mention anyone of consequence such as Bush, Stockwell Day or the countless right wing politicians, including a number of prominent Zionists and Israelis, who compared Saddam Hussein to Hitler in the run-up to the Iraq war or those who now compare Iran to Nazi Germany. But I guess use of the "n word" needn't be criticized if it's being used to promote one own's political agenda.

[ 23 April 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

Farber it seems writes one editorial that the "Detectives of lunacy" here try to hang him with. Never mind the fact that when 3 people are in touch with him from this community alone he tells them exactly what cjc did about anders. Never mind the fact that Telegdi, defender of nazi killing unit member helmut oberlander, is a Liberal in name only, never mind the fact that only on Babble can the use of Nazi analogies be turned into a politicalgame to attack a leader in the mainstream jewish community.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Petsy:
[QUOTE] Never mind the fact that Telegdi, defender of nazi killing unit member helmut oberlander, is a Liberal in name only

---

A fair point. There are lots of rightwing Libs and I'm sure there are many small-"l" liberals in K-W who prefer Red Tory Elizabeth Witmer to rightwing Lib Telegdi. That being said, Farber's piece disproportionately goes after those on the left-liberal end of the spectrum.

quote:

---

Did you even perhaps start a thread about Stockwell Day's comments on Babble when he uttered them?

---

Farber wrote one editorial. The issue was about the misuse of Nazi analogies not about keeping a list of what political affiliations these people had.

Secondly, in his own words Lord Palmerston tells us he spoke (or wrote ) to Farber about Anders. Farber told him that a letter had gone to Anders immediatley as possible. Lord Palmerston was an average member of the public . Farber had no obligation to tell him a thing. It also seems that others here had a similar experience. Doesn't sound to me like a man trying in any way to hide or even be resistant to letting people know of how his group manages these things.

He also explained to Lord Palmerston:

quote:

---

Farber told me that "personal communication works best" and the CJC only goes public if approached directly by the media.

---

As for the Bush, Stockwell Day nazi analogies, truthfully the first I ever heard of these was when they were exposed on this Board in the last few weeks. They were never brought up at the time of uttering. In fact not even political rivals who would use anything to batter Day made any note of it. Is it possible that not only Babblers missed it, but also NDP and Liberals who are ELECTED to actually watch for things they can hammer their political foes with seemed to have also missed it? If that's possible could Farber have missed it too? What do you think that he sits around all day and reads Hansard in order to catch nazi analogies.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
I don't need to call the cjc ohara. You're here, and you're obviously it's mouthpiece. Why else would all of your posts be dedicated to the CJC. It's rather limiting don't you think?

That was a rhetorical question. I really don't care what you think.

---

Still have only heard from CJC.

Right now I find it more interesting in who has not responded than who has.

fsw was all over the cjn about campus stuff and bb just released their anti-semetic incident report.

weird that neither have commented on anders.

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stargazer:
The facts are exactly as I stated them, although again it is yet another fact that you will be right behind ohara in most everything. And here you are. Surprise!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by johnpauljones:
fsw was all over the cjn about campus stuff and bb just released their anti-semetic incident report.

weird that neither have commented on anders.

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]

---

As a person who put himself at risk for causes during both the US civil rights movement and the campaign against the war in Vietnam, I fail to see how China is any different from the US or any other imperialistic power. How many Tibetans serve in the executive of the Chinese government. How many Tibetans have even been governor of Tibet since the Chinese take over. Fact is China is an imperial presence and native Tibetans are a repressed minority.

And Canadian Liberals care as much about that as they do about reserve conditions in Canada. The tribe that my native blood comes from lost 80% of it's population in 40 years, yet no one talks about "American genocide". I see people as those who do everything possible to protect the rights of minorities, or those who sell out. You co-operate with oppression, or you don't. Americans have a long history of co-operating with oppressors. 50% of US companies during world war two traded with the Nazis. So how American have we become?

In getting all indignant about what this man Anders has said, all you're doing is showing how little you know or care about stopping oppression in the world. For most of us, as long as the computer we just bought cost half what the same computer would have cost 10 years ago before they started being manufactured in China, we could give a crap about civil rights in China. The sad thing is, it has been shown time and time again, people who don't respect the minorities within their own country don't respect any one. They tolerate others only for as long as it serves their purpose. The US supplied Saddam Husein with arms when he was fighting a war with Iran. There are no "values" here, just political expediency. The attacks above are just smokescreens to try and help everyone feel better about themselves. Personally, I go and see the Dalai Lama whenever I can. I I don't give a crap about what China thinks of that. He's a good man. That's all that should matter. To paraphrase MLK, who I saw speak once " I dream of a day when all countries will be judged by their treatment of all the people within their borders and the value of their presence in the world, not by their economic or military power and their ability to threaten and oppress others." China and the US are at the bottom of my list right now. There are worse governments in poor countries who can't inflict as much damage because they are poor, not because they are good, but the US and China are able to create situations like Iraq and Dafur. Canada, even under Harper is saintly compared to those two, if only because we don't have the military to mess up as bad as those two.

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by johnpauljones:
As part of my updates. Still nothing from BB, FSW or ACJC

---

Hey JPJ anything from ACJC or Simon Wiesenthal or BB?

It is weird that no other group has done anything.

I would have thought with Yom Hashoa next week that either ACJC or FSW or BB would have issued a statement.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Well ohara and Petsy don't you think it's an outrage, or at the very least a tad hypocritical, that the media called the CJC for comment in the case of May but won't for Anders?

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

---

quote:

---

Many found the Heil Hitler salute with its outstretched arm ridiculous. A circus director in the western city of Paderborn, a confirmed Social Democrat opponent of the Nazis, trained his chimpanzees to raise their right arm whenever they saw a uniform, and they even took to saluting the postman.

He was denounced and a received an official notice forbidding the chimpanzees from making the salute and threatening “slaughter”.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:
Are you now holding the cjc responsible for the media in canada?

---

Bob Rae, a Liberal, and Babblers trying to whitewash China's atrocious human rights record.

Rob Anders, a Conservative speaking out against the occupation of Tibet and offenses against the Falung Gong.

Did I miss something?

Now, one poster is asking Jack Layton to speak out on this issue.

What do you want Mr. Layton to do? Stand up in the House of Commons and say:

Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding the 60-70 million people who died under Mao Tsung's reign (many by atrocious torture), and the current Chinese government that regularly throws political opponents in jail, suppresses a free press, hunts down and regularly imprisons religious groups such as the falung gong and harvests their organs, and directly supports genocide by regularly shipping weapons to the Sudan and Zimbamwe, the NDP wants to join with Bob Rae in condemning a backbench MP for making comparisons between China and Nazi Germany??

http://cipfg.org/en/index.php?news=408

However, when you are talking about a genocide such as Darfur or as alleged in the case of the Falung Gong, the lines become much more blurred. Can two cases of mass, religious or culturally motivated be compared? Do we risk undermine one absolute evil by comparing it to another? However, on the other hand, do we risk devaluing the past if we do not actively learn from the mistakes of yesteryear.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daniel Grice:
Wow.

Bob Rae, a Liberal, and Babblers trying to whitewash China's atrocious human rights record.

Rob Anders, a Conservative speaking out against the occupation of Tibet and offenses against the Falung Gong.

Did I miss something?

Now, one poster is asking Jack Layton to speak out on this issue.

What do you want Mr. Layton to do? Stand up in the House of Commons and say:

Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding the 60-70 million people who died under Mao Tsung's reign (many by atrocious torture), and the current Chinese government that regularly throws political opponents in jail, suppresses a free press, hunts down and regularly imprisons religious groups such as the falung gong and harvests their organs, and directly supports genocide by regularly shipping weapons to the Sudan and Zimbamwe, the NDP wants to join with Bob Rae in condemning a backbench MP for making comparisons between China and Nazi Germany??

I'm confused. Once upon a time things used to be black and white. I thought Progressives spoke out out against human rights abuses and Conservatives sided with big businesses in putting the dollar first....

---

Funny observations on this thread:

- Bob Rae compared Harper to Chamberlain not too long ago - for signing the softwood lumber deal (as noted here) so now in addition to being a Liberal he's a hypocrite. Wait. That's redundant.

- Dan Grice is defending the widespread use of Hitler/Chamberlain analogies. At least he's consistent. The Tories who slammed May for using the same analogy aren't.

However, I think there is a difference between using them to bring attention to genuine human rights abuses and using them to smear a political opponent. As does the Rabbi as listed above.

[ 24 April 2008: Message edited by: Daniel Grice ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
http://tinyurl.com/4em8wx

I'm sure Anders will be rebuked by Bernie Farber and the CJC just as surely as Elizabeth May was.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the aptly-named wanker:
No Canadian politician should go anywhere near the Bejeing Olympics.

---

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by miles:

I mean BB issues statements left right and centre.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ohara:
Interesting indeed though the Rabbi seems to have made these comments in 2006 which pre-dates his leadership with CJC.

People can certainly have individual positions but organizations make their policy and I have to assume that the Rabbi has now accepted the CJC position.

---

What is the CJC's position? (I didn't realize it had one).

As for the 1936 Olympics - numerous western leaders were using that exact analogy when justifying the boycott of the 1980 Olympics in Moscow.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

As for the 1936 Olympics - numerous western leaders were using that exact analogy when justifying the boycott of the 1980 Olympics in Moscow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
Andrew Telegdi is not a rightwing Lib or Nazi apologist. He is probably the most decent person in the Liberal Party. I never understood why NDPers never mention Telegdi when they talk about Liberals they'd like to see defect.

[ 25 April 2008: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]

---

Babble

This is the only copy of a copy of the Kitchener Record I could find of the ditty where Telegdi writes an op-ed defending Helmut Oberlander.

Telegdi on Oberlancer

You remember Oberlander Max he was the member of the Nazi Einzatsgruppen killing squad that murdered about 90,000 of our fellow Jews (but hey don't let that stop your support for telegdi...uh uh).

Wait it gets better; along with utuilizing racist language in his early days (see babble thread earlier) he then goes on to suggest that Canada acts like a nazi state and then Andy gets full support from the neo-Nazi Heritage Front.

Blog on Telegdi

This will also be helpful

CBC on telegdi Nazi reference

Yes Max this is your hero Andy telegdi. I think you should volunteer as his campaign advisor. Your perceptiveness would, I am sure, be welcome by him. Just shut the door quietly.

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: ohara ]

[ 26 April 2008: Message edited by: ohara ]

Take the analogy of a psychologist and prosecutor building a case against a rapist. The psychologist and prosecutor would not only rely on the testimony of victims or the relatives of victims, but on many, many other forms of evidence to create a picture of the rapist and their activities. Likewise, we shouldn't be afraid to look past the recollections of recollections of Nazism proffered by their victims (and their progeny) and seek to understand Nazism as part and parcel of our own historical legacy and come to grips with it as such.

One of the mechanisms for understanding our role in Nazism (and against Nazism) is to look at how behaviour at that time is repeated, imitated and even revered under a new name. How our minds allow us to play the same games of denial and ignorance in spite of the evidence to the contrary in front of our faces. Nazism was defeated, but carries a poweful legacy in the form of various splinters which have embedded themselves in the political culture of all (post) modern states. In contrast, the regime of Mao, which killed 10's of millions continues uninterrupted by massive ideological schism or destruction by war. In spite of its crimes, it holds a place of esteem in our minds far out of proportion with it's behavioural record. I think Anders' point is a good one, forcing us to think about our relationship to Chinese human rights abuses - our complicity, our participation, and our lack of resistance. Why does it hold an esteemed place in our minds, in spite of countless millions dead and suffering?

If using a strong word like Nazi is what it takes to rouse us from our "dogmatic slumber", so be it. Quibbling about whose memories of Nazism are "more correcter" at this point is like arguing over angels on pinheads while China continues to destroy people's lives and culture while we gladly play along.

As usual, the CJC is out to lunch on this one. Worrying about protecting it's intellectual real estate (the right to pronounce on Nazism's legacy) while a far more important ongoing issue is on the table.

[ 28 April 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

Unfortunately, when doing an autopsy/investigation of a body like Nazism - and I'd say our society is still mulling over the remains - some things will be stirred up that may upset victims and collaborators alike. But, it is of too much importance to us historically and culturally to have the terms of the investigation dictated only by the feelings of the victims. If "Never Again" is to mean anything at all, the autopsy must be thorough and uncompromising. We all had/have our part to play.

Anders' intent isn't to downplay the horrors of Nazism, but to use that horror to call attention to another set of horrors of similar kind and scope. The uses of memory are many, and if there is the possibility that the memory of Nazism could be used to stop an ongoing crime, what is the problem? Isn't that what "Never Again" means?

[ 28 April 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

Let's assume that it's 1936 and China exists then as it does now.

Both states regularly persecute religious minorities.

Both states use concentration and forced labour camps to deal with ethnic, political and other undesirables.

Both states are single-party states with all forms of dissent ruthlessly quashed using violence, coercion, manipulation of media.

Both states have deep ties with the world economy as manufacturers of cheap goods sold in "1st world" economies, receiving huge amounts of investment and technological aid from capitalists in those same economies.

Both states engage in the suppression of trade unions and workers rights.

One state has engaged in aggressive expansion, occupying a neighbouring state and threatening the autonomy and independence of another it considers part of it's historic territory. The other has visions of similar behaviour, but has not acted on them yet.

One state's policies have resulted in the genocide of millions of people. One has not.

Now you seem to be very familiar with this CCD quoting some obscure posts about your "obsession", Farber. You must have had to comb that site to find it. Wow you must really enjoy it.

[ 28 April 2008: Message edited by: ohara ]

[ 28 April 2008: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fidel:
But British and U.S.-backed Kuomintang did persecute just about everyone in 1930's China. Anyone suspected of Maoist support, like red dye or threads on their necks from red scarves, were executed on the spot. Chiang Kai-shek and his gangsters murdered over ten million people in China before Maoists chased them to Taiwan and Burma in 1949. So it's not difficult to imagine that there was brutal fascist reression and mass murder occuring in pre-communist China and with the aid of western democracies at the same time.

---

Sorry was that directed at my post, Fidel?

[ 29 April 2008: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]