I'm talking 7 & 8 yr-olds...I noticed today from a distance that my son was swarmed by 3-4 girls from his class; they started tugging on his back pack and jacket as he desperately tried to get away.

He wound up and pushed one of the girls (to which I intervened as I approached). They giggled, looking back as they walked away. "BUT, MOM! They always do that!" was his reasoning for pushing her.

I think the best thing for him to do in this situation is run! It would be better than just collapsing or hitting the girls...

Guys start to catch up relative to the girls, or girls come down to the level of the guys, by about my age.

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I'm convinced that girls mature faster than boys.

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[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: R. J. Dunnill ]

I can just imagine this poor fellow (who was actually quite mature for his age) trying to concentrate on a lecture and drown out this background chatter.

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I think the best thing for him to do in this situation is run! It would be better than just collapsing or hitting the girls...

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He is oblivious to their <snip> overtures or attempts to gain his attention.

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RD

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: R. J. Dunnill ]

He told me the girls made up sign language and one of them said in this sign language that she was going to marry him.

I considered the toy escape Mr. Magoo offered...but I don't know.

Maybe if he can't get away from their grip and run, he can use SamL's technique! "Help...I'm being swarmed by giiirrrlllsss..." kind of thing?

...I like that. It doesn't sound too dorky to me.

[ 23 April 2003: Message edited by: Anuri ]

ie: the spouting of BS in legalese: "Battery! Assault! Impeding pedestrian traffic! Someone write them a ticket, or something!"

Yeah, I'm not sure if it was my nerd-factor, or the yelling (which only occurred at the early stages, since it worked so well), but I never had that problem after about Grade 3. Of course, after I returned from New Jersey it sort of started up again, but I'm just too much of a nerd for that to last long.

It's kind of weird, because we feminists really focus on sexual harassment that happens to girls from boys at school, but I think boys are often the victims of it too. And not only that, but it's hard because boys are supposed to "like it" and it's hard for them to be able to have their parents intervene for them - that might ruin their rep!

I've seen it happen even with my little guy. A girl who is a year older than him has a huge crush on him, and always wants to hold his hand, lie down with him, wrap her arms around him for long periods of time, etc. It's not stuff he ever does with any of the other girls he's friends with, and it's never initiated by him, although he goes along with it. It makes me uncomfortable and I generally step in because it gets to the point where she's all over him all the time.

Kuba Walda- you're scaring me! How has your son coped with all the attention?

All in all I think he's turned out to be pretty normal. He gets good grades, plans to attend university, and is currently studying to take the Ministry of Transport test to get his private pilot's license. And he's paying for his classes himself. He also routinely gets the humanitarian/leadership (or, in his school the Rich Hansen award) which means more to me than if he got 100 awards for his marks.

Not surprizing, though, Kuba. I seem to remember having a mad crush on an "older" boy. Karl. He was in the SECOND GRADE, don't you know? Fire-red hair and piercing blue eyes... mmmmmm... boys..... The girls used to trap boys and put them in "kissing jail". There was never any tears or clothes tearing though, I'm sure it could escalate to that once hormones kicked in at 14 or so.

[ 25 April 2003: Message edited by: kuba walda ]

[ 27 April 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

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You save your trivial chat-room small talk? For two years?

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It's kind of weird, because we feminists really focus on sexual harassment that happens to girls from boys

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I am thinking this might have more to do with society somehow more successfully getting it into girls heads that they need a man. For definition, friendship, intimacy, I don't know?

But this sounds the reverse of what is natural to me.

I finally told him to hit her back. My philiosophy is whether you are male or female if you throw a punch at someone you better be prepared to get one back. So he hit her back, I was called to the school because "horrors" he "hit a girl". After a rather long discussion about how IMO girls didnt have any more rights than boys to harass and bully someone the pack of girls was given a good talking to and given detention. Turns out my son wasnt the only boy being terrified by them; and that was pretty much the end of it.

This has nothing to do with maturity: mature people don't bully or intimidate other people.

It has everything to do with sexualizing our children far too much and too early (look at television advertising), and with teaching them that violence solves all problems and grants all wishes (look at all entertainment).

The little girls in question want attention, want to show off: harassing boys (for whom they wouldn't have any use, if they caught them) is just the currently fashionable way of going about it. Give them an alternative. Soccer? Wrestling? Hikes? Kite-flying contests? Some way to invest their energy and engage in competition and gratify their emerging ego.

[ 05 May 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

I also have son & daughter. I was a boy at a time when boys did not hit girls, No Matter What. On reflection though, that was premised on the (then extant) notion that girls would neither initiate nor sustain physical violence. In that environment, such a proscription makes sense.

On the other hand, the right to self-defense is primary. On that reflection, I instruct/advise my kids to avoid confrontation by soft speech or leaving the scene. If avoidance is not possible, the correct action is to strike first, hard, and cause a lot of damage. They will, of course sustain wounds--broken hands, at least--but attacks are less likely in the future. Ya, you'll get in trouble with the school: personal safety and pride are more important than school rules. K's advice to resist the attackers was correct...Otherwise, to attract the sustained interest of wolves, keep acting like a sheep.

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the correct action is to strike first, hard, and cause a lot of damage

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Teach your kids to kick box, feet carry a helluva lot harder "punch" then your fist and when you have the technique. This is IMO the best way for women to defend themselves -

However I told also told my kids IF it is going to come down to a run of the mill everyday fight, make sure the other guy throws the first punch - but dont ever let down your guard so you get sucker punched. Once he or she throws that first punch you are defending yourself and not the attacker - and cant be charged.

Another thing I taught my son is if you cant talk your way out of it softly and reasonably and you know you are going to take a real beating then convince the other guy you are so deranged you will stop at nothing, including ripping his arms off and beating him to death with them. Most people are terrified of truly crazy people. He has used this tactic twice now and both times the aggressor changed his mind and ran like hell when faced with such insanity - Instead of backing down he became the aggressor, getting right into the guys face, screaming - acting like a psycho --

Disclaimer: none of the above refers to children, or to being harassed by little girls as in the original post. Nor is it a put down on mental illness - think psycho movie -

I made my son fight his first fight when he was in about grade 2, he was always coming home crying because this other boy was picking on him so one day I marched him back to the school - said which kid is it? he said that one - and I said you go over there and you punch him as hard as you can - the kid went down, my son was so scared his knees gave out and he went down too. The bullys nose was bleeding and the few kids in the school yard were standing around with their mouths open - and the bully never went near my son or any other kid again.

On the other hand my daughter took out a grade 5 boy while she was still in kindergarten, he was always harassing her, even tied her up once on the school ground. One well aimed kick and he never bothered her again and had to live with "shame" of being beaten by a kindergarten girl. I never knew she was going to do it until after the fact - and I heard about it from another kid who was also being bullied by this "big kid" in grade 5.

Bullies rule by fear. There was no way with of these kids could have been talked to by the principal, in fact they were, several times and it just increased their image of themselves as "scary thugs".

But we do have to teach our kids how to defend themselves even when we ourselves abhor violence. And we need to talk to them about their own behavior and what is acceptable and what isnt.

Edited for typo

[ 06 May 2003: Message edited by: Kindred ]

It's awful that we have to go to these measures to ensure our children's safety.

I have my son attending Baha'i classes that's teaching him Baha'i principles and virtues, such as kindness, justice, his connection with the environment, his responsibilities in life, etc.

Though he's aware of how to treat peers and adults with respect, we often come across unruly children whose parents don't seem to give a damn or make excuses for them.

Just the other day we were at the school park where I have to pick up one of my daycare kids and we usually play there.

Some kids were playing a game and excluded Chris from the game. I asked them why they don't let him join and the child, about 8 yrs-old, said, "Because it's my ball and you are NOT my boss!"

Well, to me that's injustice so I asked my son to go and tell the mom if he really wanted to play. So he did and the mom struggled with the boy for about 15 minutes before they agreed to let Chris join.

After that another boy came up and swore at him and Chris got upset and the children started to laugh at him.

So now I'm doing exercises with him to "toughen" his skin. I'm calling him names so that he won't get so upset when people call him names.

It's a crazy world! Crazy!

[ 06 May 2003: Message edited by: Anuri ]

I worry more about my older kid than my younger. Ms T has a strong physical sense of herself, but Ms B is one of those kids who just doesn't comprehend physical violence. We had a situation at daycare last year, a boy younger than her was hitting her (the sitter's son), and I actually witnessed him going after her one day. The look of disbelief on her face... We wound up removing her from the situation after the sitter (whom I had spoken to in an attempt to work the conflict out) told her it was her fault the boy hit her... Just the sort of lesson I want my daughter to be taught in her formative years...

However, I don't want to teach her to hit back. I was bullied heavily for many years, and I only ever hit somebody once. In a way, it was impressive, as he was quite literally twice my size and I left him bleeding and weeping on the floor - no injury to me - but it remains one of the memories I am most ashamed of. In that moment, I reduced myself to no better than he was.

Even though I tried to raise my kids with the thought "From you mouth to Gods ears" - and if you make fun of some other person you are making fun of Gods work because he or she made that person -- There still comes a time when you have to teach them to stand up for themselves and how to defend themselves. My son was timid, and sensitive much like yours sounds. I made him jump off the dock at the lake when all the kids were laughing at him because he was scared - jump or I will push you off, you wont get hurt - and he did it and spent the rest of the day jumping off with the other kids and had a great time.

The mother in me felt "oh my poor baby" but the person in me said "make him toughen up or he will spend his while life being called names and laughed at" .. some of the other mothers told me I was "mean" but I prefer to think of it as being a realist. My son has often said "thanks mom" now that he is an adult - Thanks for sitting against the fridge all evening so I couldnt get in to it and eat and become even "fatter". He wasnt obese just a little overweight and the kids teased him, until I started spending my evenings in the kitchen, reading, with my back against the fridge.

We used to play a game thinking of all the stupid names people could call someone and giggling about how silly they really were ..

BUT its also important to teach them that all the kids wont like them, all the kids wont want to play with them, and thats okay. No one is liked by everyone. If someone doesnt like you for some dumb reason then so what? They lose a good friend by being silly and you have lost nothing, because you dont want to be friends with someone who doesnt like you -- walk away.

In grade school there was a girl that no one liked, she has neurofibromytosis (did I spell that right David40?) and no one would play with her, she had cafe au lait splotches here and there, I told my daughter I wanted her to be friends with her, invite her to parties. Her mother phoned me crying and saying thank you, she has never had a friend before - and now that the girls are 21 they are still BEST friends and always will be.

Parents have to look at what is going on at school, in the playground, and take the time to ask "why dont you like that little girl or boy?" Often its because the ring leader decided they didnt like them - This is often where the bullies come from too - some of them CAN be charmed if they are just included -

I taught my kids to be tough but to be decent human beings too. When I heard through the grape vine that they had been mean to someone I invited their "victims" over to our house to play.

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Yikes. I'm afraid to have kids now!

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My mate and I had this discussion a few times and I really like his reasoning for having children- to use as an example, "If blacks didn't have children and gave up, there would not have been Sister Rosa Parks, Martin L. King, who have helped shaped society to become better".

Zoot, I started off teaching my son not to hit back but there's a problem with that. At his age, I believe it teaches him that he's not important and it's an awful lot for him to carry when children he's surrounded by are not taught the concept. If children were just taught to have respect then I would certainly put more emphasis on not hitting back. But the fact is they are not- at least not here.

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I was bullied heavily for many years, and I only ever hit somebody once. In a way, it was impressive, as he was quite literally twice my size and I left him bleeding and weeping on the floor - no injury to me - but it remains one of the memories I am most ashamed of. In that moment, I reduced myself to no better than he was.

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I wouldn't say that you reduced yourself to his level, especially if the bullying was physical. There is a big difference between self-defence and picking on someone because they are "different".

A few months ago, I witnessed a friend of mine play a prank on another friend of mine. The prank was not thought out, and the latter ended up hurting his knee (possibly tore some cartilage). Nothing life-threatening, but something that still shouldn't have happened. Five minutes later I find the friend with the torn knee in the process of beating the stuffing out of my friend the prankster. He looked as if he were about to kill him. The look in his eyes is one that I've had to try hard to forget. I pull the knee-friend off of the prank-friend. Prank-friend runs away (smart idea). Knee-friend catches his breath for a few seconds, and then, as if he had transferred his rage to me, cam charging at me from 6 feet away, with his arm drawn back about to strike. Needless to say, I was scared, especially since my strength in likely in the bottom quintile nation-wide.

So I dodged him, and then I half-threw half-body checked him into the wall, face first, and made sure that he wasn't physically able to strike again.

I was called names a lot in school, and it hurt a lot. Home was my one "haven" from name-calling, and I don't know what I would have done if my parents had started calling me names too. Home was the place where I was "sweetie" and "beautiful" instead of the names other kids called me.

Zoot, I agree with Anuri about the "hitting back" thing. I don't agree with telling kids to hit first, but there are some kids on the playground who will just not learn until you stand up to them and clock them.

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I made my son fight his first fight when he was in about grade 2, he was always coming home crying because this other boy was picking on him so one day I marched him back to the school - said which kid is it? he said that one - and I said you go over there and you punch him as hard as you can - the kid went down, my son was so scared his knees gave out and he went down too. The bullys nose was bleeding and the few kids in the school yard were standing around with their mouths open - and the bully never went near my son or any other kid again.

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Kindred, that's funny. Sounds similar to me, except my parents didn't accompany me to the bullies. I got into my first "fight" in grade 3. I was always a very gentle child, probably because I had no siblings and so didn't ever have any kind of physical fighting - my parents never used corporal punishment either. When kids would hit or call names, I would stare in amazement and hurt, not understanding how people could do such a thing. To hear my parents tell it, I was a total Pollyanna that way.

I ended up at a school that was pretty "rough" when I was in grades 2-4, and kids were always fighting on the playground. I didn't know the first thing about fighting, and I was terrified to "hit back", even though my father would occasionally tell me to do so.

Anyhow, my best friend at the time (whom I'm still in touch with occasionally) took me home one day and "taught" me how to fight (not much strategy, it was just hit-hit-back). The next day, I went to school loaded for bear, just WAITING for someone to punch me. I got into a big fight with this one kid who was known as a bit of a "tough", and we both went to the principal's office. The principal called our parents, and my father says he was thrilled to hear that I finally pounded some kid who was picking on me. After that I was never afraid of fighting or of bullies at that school, and while I still got into fights (because that's the kind of school it was), nobody thought I was an easy mark anymore.

I grew up in the country, and went off to Junior High school in "town" totally unprepared for the girl/boy divisions in society. I had spent my whole time playing with my brother and male cousins. I was also unprepared for things like name calling, and bullies and the dreaded cheer leaders with their nastiness. They were the nastiest people I had ever met --

My own ignorance of the world and naivity was appalling ! I decided then and there that my own kids when I had them would never flounder like I did, or be thrown in over their depth. They do say knowledge is power ....

I am surprised at how many people here are teaching their kids to fight, and at the same time greatly saddened that this is necessary in our world. Kids ARE so innocent and accepting and non-judgemental until they hear stuff from adults, from the media that corrupts their little hearts and minds.

The kids mine had the most problem with were all from one family, four boys, and I phoned numerous times to speak to their parents, the mother would just yell and scream and call me names if I tried to talk to her.

She always answered the phone and refused to let me talk to her husband. Then one day while attending an event at the school I saw this guy I had been good friends with years ago and went over to talk to him -- and found out it was HIS kids mine had been having such a hard time with !!

Also, we gave him a list of things to arm himself with: Leave me alone! Get lost! and of course he has his usual, "I'm rubber you're glue..." etc.

I believe it prepares not to get so upset when it does happen. The kids were laughing at him and taunting it more. Right in front of ME! I couldn't believe it.

Needless to say, I stepped in. I would have used my scary voice but (pretty scary- I scare adults with it) instead I explained to the children why it wasn't right for them to laugh at someone who was upset. And did a reverse scenario which seemed to work.