EU ignores Amnesty warning on China

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

So certainly there is no criticism that can be applied against the EU on this matter that doesn't apply in spades against us in North America also.

And then, of course, there is this:

web pageChina warns 'other countries' against meddling in Israel arms trade

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]

Never mind what it would take in the way of raw materials or energy in order to actually make all the stuff they went to unload on a billion-person market; they just want the money on their balance sheets.

So they hope against hope that the Chinese will buy all their crap, when it is clear on the bald face of it, that the Chinese government has no intention of letting the standard of living rise for the majority of Chinese, because they've seen what happens to other countries whose workers get paid "too much" - the companies pack up and move somewhere else.

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by WingNut:
Absolutely correct slim. In fact, the US championed China's entry into the WTO. Canada has sold China a number of CANDU reactors and currently has a huge trade imbalance as a result of all the stuff imported from China.

So certainly there is no criticism that can be applied against the EU on this matter that doesn't apply in spades against us in North America also.

And then, of course, there is this:

web pageChina warns 'other countries' against meddling in Israel arms trade

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: WingNut ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WingNut:
Was your initial post anti-EU Mishie? I guess it was. Was Slim's post anti-North America? I thought it was just matter-of-fact. You are clearly suffering paranoid delusions as my post was simply to show that all states in all parts of the world are overlooking China's human rights records in favour of trade.

Really, take a pill.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Why the smear job on Europe all of a sudden?

Amnesty has quite a bit to say about you know where too.

---

I doubt that the US and it's local attack dog are finished with with Syria yet, though.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DrConway:
Wouldn't that be ironic. Bulldozer battles Prima Donna. Lagatta can organize us ringside seats as we watch Sharon order IDF troops to invade Italy, and Berlusconi's comical attempts to pull a "Musso" should be good for some yuks.

After all, hasn't Berlusconi associated with far-right pro-fascist parties in Italy, and gone on record as defending the statements made by the leaders of such parties, which some people have interpreted as close to Holocaust denial?

---

Yes and it would simply add to the absurdities of the Berlusconi/Israel confluence, because as you well know, our dear old fascist friend recently was commended by the ADL...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mishei:
And here you have that wonderful European Union (EU) cozing up to China despite warnings by Amnesty International of China's horrendous and ongoing Human rights abuses. Can it be any wonder that it is so difficult to take the EU or anything it does with any seriousness?

EU ignores Amnesty warning on China

[ 02 November 2003: Message edited by: Mishei ]

---

It's true, they shouldn't be doing this. But, then again, they are simply following in the footsteps of that great moral Empire; the U.S.. Remember, a placid, disenfranchised working class is a capitalist dream and the EU is simply looking to protect it's investments/investors against the competition of the U.S. for Chinese labour. The U.S. have granted MFN status to China (not to speak of Canada's cozy relationship with Beijing), and billions of American dollars pour into Chinese manufacturing each year. Our 'disappearing working class' (supposedly a sign of our wonderful just society) is simply reappearing over there, under far more controlled, stable conditions than any investor here could ever dream of.

So, if you rightly start questioning the moral judgements of the EU on this matter but then pretend as though this automatically makes them incapable of right moral judgements on other policy matters you better be prepared to have the knife cut both ways. Not only is it clear that your favorite state, Israel is involved in substantial trade with China (perhaps Israel should not be taken seriously, would you agree?) but so is Israel's chief benefactor.

And, as your cause celebre is Israel, and you are frequently going on about how the EU is just antisemitic and of no moral worth, the connection to Israel was already implied when you posted this. Acting indignant now that someone else draws a negative connection is just dishonest. Though, these kinds of tactics have become almost daily faire with you.

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Courage:

And, as your cause celebre is Israel, and you are frequently going on about how the EU is just antisemitic and of no moral worth, the connection to Israel was already implied when you posted this. Acting indignant now that someone else draws a negative connection is just dishonest. Though, these kinds of tactics have become almost daily faire with you.

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

---

quote:

---

Here I begin a thread dealing with the EU and CHINA so now you claim I have some hidden Israel propaganda agenda.

---

So you've become interested in CHINA eh...?

I know, the Chinese are cutting into Israel's share of the arms sales market!

Bad, bad China.

quote:

---

Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Go to a store and try to find any household appliance that isn't made in China. It's hard for any of us NOT to be complicit in what's happening in China.

So you've become interested in CHINA eh...?

I know, the Chinese are cutting into Israel's share of the arms sales market!

Bad, bad China.

Next!

---

Is it?

This thread is pretty funny.

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

You assume that anyone who argues with you about the rape of Palestine knows nothing about horrors in the rest of the world. You do assume that, don't you, you condescending person Mishei you?

The murdering bastards who still run China pointed their guns at my little brother in Tienanmen Square, Mishei, and I will never forget.

They are still in power, Mishei, because the same people who keep your heroes in power daren't challenge them.

It is you, Mishei, you, who still defend the utter creeps who defile humanity all over this globe in the interests of bourgeois comfort and propriety.

Look in a mirror, Mishei. You are not only defending Israel, but Saudi Arabia and China too. You are fighting for the old order, the killing order, the order of power.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mishei:
You are of course acting in a hypocritical manner. It was you who admonished me to widen my horizons. While my record here will show that I have engaged in many issues on Babble taking on this matter seemed important. You, on the other hand, have such a fetish with bad bad Isarel it is as though you can think of nothing else. No other state in your mind is as bad...you need help understanding that there are many regimes that are evil and treat their people shamefully. Israel is a democracy with an independant judiciary, free press, and free expression...China and other dictatorships should be your focus not Israel especially in a thread that has noting to do with the Middle east.

---

Oh, for Pete's sake, Mishei.

Even when you try to not be patronizing as all hell, you still go ahead and do it.

"You need help understanding that many regimes that are evil..." - I mean, christ. Why don't you just wag your finger in his face to top it all off?

And I find it interesting that you initially denied that this thread was started to deflect attention off Israel, when you even stated in your first post thus:

quote:

---

Can it be any wonder that it is so difficult to take the EU or anything it does with any seriousness?

---

Maybe if you didn't always have a geedee ulterior motive when participating in threads that don't involve Israel, people like myself wouldn't be so quick to read between the lines of all your posts.

(After all, countries in the EU have gone on record as being not too happy with the actions of the Israeli government, and here you are, ready with your good old standby of a drive-by smear job, which you magically think will somehow boost your credibility to unheard-of heights. Puh-LEEZE, Mishei. The more I analyze your posts the more I see the patronizing nature of your posts ooze through. I'd better stop here or you're gonna look like a garden-variety politician by the time I'm done.)

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]

However the EU has taken progressive stands on many issues, including global warming, and many of its member nations have refused to support the adventure in Iraq.

quote:

---

These would be the same Europeans whose history of antisemitism is abominable? Just asking.

---

And anyone is supposed to believe that two days later, this:

quote:

---

And here you have that wonderful European Union (EU) cozing up to China despite warnings by Amnesty International...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mishei:
You guys are a hoot. You and others claim that I concentrate solely on Israel threads. Here I begin a thread dealing with the EU and CHINA so now you claim I have some hidden Israel propaganda agenda. Cant win with you guys.

---

Already won with you. Don't need a bomb-dog to sniff out what you're packing...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mishei:

Israel is a democracy with an independant judiciary, free press, and free expression...

---

quote:

---

A swine will do, they're experts on your kind of cargo.

---

Des truffes?

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

Pigs rootin' around for meaning, coming up with fungus!

Didja ever notice how the English words "pork," "beef" and "mutton" usually refer to food, not animals? It's William the Bastard's fault. The Norman lords who conquered England got to eat the swine, cattle and sheep grown by the Saxons, who had to exist on lentils and gruel, I suppose.

quote:

---

Originally posted by skdadl:
Mishei, pill you. Seriously.

You assume that anyone who argues with you about the rape of Palestine knows nothing about horrors in the rest of the world. You do assume that, don't you, you condescending person Mishei you?

---

Is that you, Kettle?

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mishei:
...so now you claim I have some hidden Israel propaganda agenda.

---

It's not hidden...

Or you are suffering from a hopeless lack of self-consciouness.

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

Nothing that I wrote in my previous post is non-factual, except, of course, for my general convictions about the global power-structure and bourgeois psycho-social illness. I mean, I think that way, it is true. I watched Bunuel, The Discreet Charms of the Bourgeoisie, a film many seem to have found surreal, and I just thought, well, they're like that, are they not?

Has anyone on babble EVER defended the bleeding current Chinese regime?

This thread is surreal, I must say. I'm all in favour of fighting the current regime in China, although I think the much much more moral thing to do would be to examine the membership of our own Team Canada, the group that last went to China with Jean Chretien.

Who was on Team Canada? What were they doing in China?

Who remembers the assault on two Canadian citizens made by a number of Team Canada members while those two Canadian citizens were very publicly arrested by the notorious Beijing police?

And who here remembers the beautiful valley of the Three Gorges, wilfully betrayed by many, but unfortunately by many Canadian politicians, among them, eg, Bob Rae when he was Ontario premier?

There are threads on all these topics on babble. Mishei has paid attention to none before now, as far as I know.

Weep for China. Fight every government you know in their nefarious dealings with that government.

But why the hell is Mishei starting such a stupid thread?

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]

Why is it ever a mistake to speak the truth?

This ain't a game, not for me, anyway.

If I know something, I will write to it. I really hope that everyone else who reads babble will do the same.

This ain't a game, and no one will bite you for saying what you know or what you think.

Nobody "wins" here by dragging anyone else into a "game." That's what trolls think.

babble works because people keep talking, and they overcome all the game-players by providing more and more and more real information.

Please, everyone: don't get sucked into the idea that you have to play games here. Please just talk.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
You know why. And a whole bunch of people fell for it.

---

I ask the same question as Al - if you know you are falling, is it really falling?

For me, I'm just messing around on the internet this afternoon, and a little sparring with The Apologist is good for laughs. You can't take him any more seriously than that, I think...

I agree with you skdadl, it shouldn't all be a game, and there are very serious issues at stake here. Maybe we should just move on and start discussing them.

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skdadl:
Could someone please tell me what I am supposed to respond to in Mishei's last post?

Nothing that I wrote in my previous post is non-factual, except, of course, for my general convictions about the global power-structure and bourgeois psycho-social illness. I mean, I think that way, it is true. I watched Bunuel, The Discreet Charms of the Bourgeoisie, a film many seem to have found surreal, and I just thought, well, they're like that, are they not?

Has anyone on babble EVER defended the bleeding current Chinese regime?

This thread is surreal, I must say. I'm all in favour of fighting the current regime in China, although I think the much much more moral thing to do would be to examine the membership of our own Team Canada, the group that last went to China with Jean Chretien.

Who was on Team Canada? What were they doing in China?

Who remembers the assault on two Canadian citizens made by a number of Team Canada members while those two Canadian citizens were very publicly arrested by the notorious Beijing police?

And who here remembers the beautiful valley of the Three Gorges, wilfully betrayed by many, but unfortunately by many Canadian politicians, among them, eg, Bob Rae when he was Ontario premier?

There are threads on all these topics on babble. Mishei has paid attention to none before now, as far as I know.

Weep for China. Fight every government you know in their nefarious dealings with that government.

But why the hell is Mishei starting such a stupid thread?

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: skdadl ]

---

And why am I starting such a thread...gee this is a discussion board and I thought we could discuss the EU and its position on China. Hell why does anyone start a thread....

quote:

---

For a decade, [Chretien] has followed a deliberate strategy of zeroing in on business opportunities and wooing the Chinese market, to the exclusion of almost anything else. In the aftermath of the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989, he helped to restore normal relations with the country and devised a new strategy that put business and trade at the heart of the relationship between the two countries.

He has visited China six times in the past 10 years. He spearheaded two "Team Canada" trade missions that included hundreds of Canadian investors who were eager to do business in the new China. He toasted Chinese leaders and supervised the signing of dozens of business deals.

---

The author goes on to review the financial rewards that have accrued from this. He seems disappointed.

[ 03 November 2003: Message edited by: Slim ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Courage:

Yes and it would simply add to the absurdities of the Berlusconi/Israel confluence, because as you well know, our dear old fascist friend recently was commended by the ADL...

Nothing suprises me anymore.

---

Then this, of course, comes as no surprise:

quote:

---

But the EU's Italian presidency tried to play down the results, insisting they did not reflect the official EU position.

"The result of the survey, based on an ambiguous question, does not reflect the position of the European Union, which has been voiced on numerous occasions," Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said.

---

And some of the stats that earlier reports didn't mention:

quote:

---

According to the Eurobarometer poll, based on interviews with 500 people in each of the 15 EU states, some 59% of Europeans replied "yes" when asked whether or not Israel presents a threat to peace in the world.

A total of 53% said Iran, North Korea and the United States pose a threat, followed by 52% for Iraq, 50% for Afghanistan and 48% for Pakistan.

Countries lower down the list included Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia, China, India, Russia and Somalia. The EU itself was described as a threat by eight percent of respondents.

---

Trust al-Jazeera to give us a balanced report

There are few instances where restricting trade is a positive force for change. One can look at the example of South Africa. There there was an organized movement that was asking for boycotts as a critical part of an overall strategy. A counter example is the chocolate slaves where the organizations involved plead that people not boycott chocolate as this would only mean that the destitute plantation owners would be even more deperate.

No one can ignore the transgressions of the Chinese government. They are real and they are going unpunished. Reducing trade will not translate into leaders being punished, and could likely work in the opposite manner. Years of American sanctions only strengthen Saddam's hand in Iraq.

I work with people who are from China and Hong Kong. They have family and friends back in China. Two people in our office went on a sales mission last year. The non-Chinese member of the mission commented on the rampant poverty and begging. Yes many of the workers are being offered subsistence wages. The alternative is absolute destitution. The days of the iron ricebowl are long gone. Yes the trickle down economics is a horrible way to distribute the wealth of a nation, but if we cut off the trickle people starve, people die. They are starving and dying now. Perhaps some can pour another latte and say the end justifies the means.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pogo:
There seems to be a truism that trading with poor human rights countries validates these atrocities. That if we are to be moral and proper we should withhold mutually beneficial contact (trade, etc...) until changes occur. I think this is a self-indulgent 1st world view.

---

Oh, come on. If you took all the reports about China and substituted "Soviet Union", all the red-hating commie-baiters would be screaming their fool heads off for a nuclear attack the next day. I don't see you saying we should have just opened the floodgates to the USSR.

I've always found it funny that the Soviet Union got far more vitriol from the political conservatives who hated Commies than China has ever gotten.

I think it's because the Soviet Union was perceived as a "white" nation, and of course white people just don't abuse human rights. So the vitriol aimed that way was probably a reflection of a guilty conscience; the recognition that gosh, maybe we lily-white folks really need to look in the mirror once in a while and make an honest assessment.

But for China, I suppose the perspective among some political conservatives is that as long as it isn't white people, they don't really care.

[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DrConway:

Oh, come on. If you took all the reports about China and substituted "Soviet Union", all the red-hating commie-baiters would be screaming their fool heads off for a nuclear attack the next day. I don't see you saying we should have just opened the floodgates to the USSR.[ 04 November 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]

---

The Soviet Union was Canada's biggest customer for wheat sales. The floodgates never closed. This is just a deflection from the real argument anyway. The question is whether trade is always wrong with countries with governments whose actions are despicable.

Since both are allegedly evil nasty Communist regimes, it begs the question of why there has been differential treatment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DrConway:
Pogo, your embracement of international trade as anything more than the exchange of goods and services and binding up with it some sort of ideological justification causes me some concern, since political conservatives often use the trade issue as a wedge to paint anti-globalization activists as well as people like me who believe in balanced, not "free" trade, as stuck-in-the-muds who want to "just hurt poor people".

---

Again not to divert from the issue I am looking for an answer on. I want to know why trade is an absolute wrong, not the motherhood issue that balanced trade is the method not free trade as dictated by the rich nations.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pogo:

Again not to divert from the issue I am looking for an answer on. I want to know why trade is an absolute wrong, not the motherhood issue that balanced trade is the method not free trade as dictated by the rich nations.

Why were so many people on the left willing to shine the light on the unintended consequences of US sanctions on Iraq, but are not willing to admit that similiar result will occur elsewhere. My point is that trade restrictions are a tool for change that should be used only if other conditions are in place. One of the key issues is support of the people in the country.

---

But, trade with a state that has a set-up like China's tends to benefit the state more than the people in it. It strengthens their position, and gives them the cash to continue paying for large security apparatuses, internal spying, policing, general repression. I admit, there is not a black and white answer to this, because there is *some* evidence (it is by no means convincing) that trade can lead to the loosening of certain political restrictions.

I don't believe the free-traders' hype when they say "trade with China will engender a bourgeoisie who will then foment a bourgeois nationalist revolution" because the ability to control capital movement and 'profit' within China is far greater than in, say, Feudal pre-revolutionary France. This is where the problem of trade slides in - if trade ends up profitting the state in the ways I mentioned above, it actually leads to the supression of a bourgeois class, or can lead to open war against them by the state that, predicting their rise, decides to nip the problem in the bud. This may lead to increased suffering in society at large, all bought and paid for with our capital investments. Moreover, the investors aren't particularly concerned with political outcomes except as it protects their current investments and makes way for new ones. As such, they are likely to continue lobbying for trade with a state that is undoubtedly using the proceeds of said trade to suppress any kind of popular unrest or open dissent against the ruling regime. Saudi Arabia is a perfect example of this problem.

[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Courage:
But, trade with a state that has a set-up like China's tends to benefit the state more than the people in it. It strengthens their position, and gives them the cash to continue paying for large security apparatuses, internal spying, policing, general repression. I admit, there is not a black and white answer to this, because there is *some* evidence (it is by no means convincing) that trade can lead to the loosening of certain political restrictions.
[ 05 November 2003: Message edited by: Courage ]

---

As it is not a given that restrictions will result in a change in government action what is the purpose of restrictions other than making us feel good over depriving others. The question is actually the reverse of what is posed by Courage: Not 'What are positives of adding trade', but 'What are the positives of restricting trade'.

Restricting trade deprives people. That is the intention, with this deprivation leading to changes in the government. If the deprivation doesn't lead to changes in government, and there is no reasonable plan to make it do so, then it is just plain deprivation. This is wrong.

This is not surprising, however. The EU has recently allowed in the first of many poor countries and more are to be let into the new European empire. Many of these countries have a dubious view on human rights. Not least the right to decent living conditions. These countries hope for wealth and prosperity inside the EU - but they are going to get quite the opposite. The scene is set for large scale exploitation of these countries, not least the working class. The EU corporates don't need human rights to be taken seriously, on the contrary. They seek the holy profit where it can be obtained, human rights or no human rights. Whether in China or Poland.

Reducing/restricting growth on economic activity will create a state of affairs "X".

State of affairs "X" entails political climate "Y".

Political climate "Y" forces political change "Z".

This strategy is endorsed by a significant and representative opposition group within the country.

But for me, it really comes down to the nature of solidarity. What are human rights activists in China calling for? Sanctions against South Africa were right because South Africans seemed to want them and were willing to accept an economic cost, because they judged the political pressure to be worth it.