Author
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Topic: Italian politics are NOT an arguement against PR
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Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8346
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posted 07 May 2007 11:02 PM
Some babblers have argued that the long post-war dominance of the centre-right in Italian politics is a case against adopting PR. This is a straw man.Italian politics in the postwar era were NOT shaped primarily by Italy's electoral system. They were driven by two particular forces: 1)The Cold War 2)The repeated intervention of both the US intelligence services and the Catholic Church(neither of which is technically headquartered in Italy, but both of which felt free to throw their weight around, usually in tandem, to prevent social change and the victory of left parties(other than the watered-down-to-nothing Socialist and Social Democratic rump parties that repeatedly propped up the Christian Democratic Party and got nothing whatsoever in exchange for their support). These influences would have guaranteed centre-right dominance in Italian politics no matter WHAT system Italy used to allocate seats in its parliament.
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pepper-Pot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13391
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posted 08 May 2007 01:52 AM
It's an interesting point Mr. Burch makes, and I shall ask others to comment with more certainty.But saying "Some Babblers" needs clarification. Is that the annoying mosquito minority, or is it the majority concensus 'round here ? ------------------------------------------------ But if I may detour slightly (a frequent stylistic indulgence of mine)...
It seems to me, that taking just 1 country, in isolation, without considering it's historical characteristics/nuances, is not a reliable or objective way to evaluate the PR model (or "pizza parliament" as sneering Neo-Cons like to refer to it as).
The way I look at it, is that the PR Pizza (talkin' Italy here, eh ? lol...) is preferable PRECISELY BECAUSE there is less unilateralism, concensus, and political monopolization of ideas. I make this statement considering ALL of the PR Pizzas throught Europe and Nordic-Scandinavia.After all, the exception can often prove the rule. --------------------------------------------- (Some crazy Dutch restaraunt folks put egg on the pizza I ordered there, but I was so hungry, I gobbled it up.I felt mildly capitalistic, so I only left a 5% gratuity.)
From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2006
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Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076
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posted 08 May 2007 02:15 AM
quote: Some babblers have argued that the long post-war dominance of the centre-right in Italian politics is a case against adopting PR. This is a straw man.
It's also historically inaccurate. The "center-right," which until recently was the old Christian Democratic Party, formed coalition governments with the old Communist Party on several occasions--and a couple of those went well as they actually got a whole bunch of stuff done. The most successful coalition was right after WWII, shortly after the general strike and the forced vote to abolish the monarchy (which the US military wanted to re-instate as part of the Marshall Plan). That CDP-CP coalition government lasted three years, and in that brief time wrote a new constitution, re-organized the entire public infrastructure and social safety grid, began a massive public reconstruction project and led a broad and successful social contract agreement on investment and development between the labour unions and cooperatives and the US government and US corporations. By Canadian standards the old CDP might even be considered moderate NDP. The only real center-right coalitions in Italy were the two Berlusconi-led ones in the mid-1990s and the last one in 2001-2006.
From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006
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Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276
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posted 16 May 2007 05:52 AM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm: There is a danger that you end up with no chance whatsoever of a government being formed without that big centre party.
As Labour thought in Scotland, both for the Scottish Parliament and local councils.But not so: quote: "After a generation, Labour's one-party states are history."There has been a seismic shift in Scottish public life, and councils will benefit from full democratic accountability." Decades of Labour domination is crumbling in places where the "monkey in a red rosette" joke was still credible until Thursday, May 3. "Over the past eight years, Labour has been a minority party but has been accepted as the biggest party in terms of seats. Others have been irritated by a perceived arrogance from Labour. "It is now minority politics which requires a different style of working, in a consensual manner. Labour can no longer control Scotland. It has to come back as a different kind of party, as local government changes will be as significant as the parliament."
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002
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Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076
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posted 16 May 2007 11:10 AM
quote: The Christian Democrats NEVER EVER formed any coalition with the Communists. The vatican forbade it. They did work with the much smaller socialist party though.
The Christian Democrats had a working relationships with the Communist Party, as well as the socialists, even including a couple of them as cabinet ministers until 1948, when the Truman dictatorship threatened to withhold development and reconstruction grants unless both were excluded. Forced to comply, Prime Minister Alcide De Gasperi dismissed them from the Cabinet, but kept them and a whole slew of others on the working and advisory committees of the economic and constitutional and infrastructure development ministries.
From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006
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Will S
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13367
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posted 16 May 2007 12:45 PM
Stockholm wrote: quote: I suspect that from now until the end of time, we would alternate between Liberal-Conservative coalition governments and Liberal-NDP coalition governments - but for all intents and purposes no government will ever be able to formed in Ontario that doesn't include the Liberals since it is highly unlikely (though not impossible) that we will ever see an NDP-Conservative coalition with the Liberals in opposition.
This presumes these three parties will be the only ones represented and capable of governing on a two-part basis. Three per cent of the popular vote is not a high threshold. If voters have a chance to vote for parties that could never hope of winning a FPTP constituency, we could see numerous other parties riding hobby horse issues. The Greens would likely have little trouble electing at least a couple of members. But we may also have to deal with religious parties or regional groups (something like the Northern Ontario Heritage Party could potentially elect MPPs). Would we have long-term coalitions? Would we have issue-by-issue minority agreements? It's hard to say.
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2006
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