A similar incident by skinheads in the former Soviet Union targeted a man of Afghan origin, who died as the result of a beating by a gang of skinhead youth. In general these hate groups target Jews and Muslims, as well as Roma (Gypsies), immigrants and people of colour more generally. Some of them also target gays and left activists.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: lagatta ]

Some comrades seem to overtly ignore information that directly contradicts their position, rather than take the evidence first and formulate their position. First they have their position, look for things that conform and then ignore what doesn't fit it.

But what is more disturbing is that much of this characterization of anti-Jewish tendencies among Muslims, seems to play exactly on those same fears of people of colour and other foreigners that the skinheads and the far right do.

Magoo, the proportinality statistic would be interesting.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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The headline findings contradict the body of the report. This says most of the 193 violent attacks on synagogues, Jewish schools, kosher shops, cemeteries and rabbis in France in 2002 - up from 32 in 2001 - were "ascribed to youth from neighbourhoods sensitive to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, principally of North African descent.

"The percentage attributable to the extreme Right was only nine per cent in 2002," it said.

The report on Belgium said most of the fire-bomb and machine-gun attacks on Jewish targets were the result of a spillover from the Palestinian intifada.

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This demonises Israel and subtly leaks into prejudice against all Jews. The study describes Belgium as a country where anti-Semitism has become almost fashionable among the Left-leaning intelligentsia.

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If you look at the hiostory from the turn of the century you will discover zionists, right up to present day, routinely target and kill civilians and kill children for sport.

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Is this statement from:

But really! Hunting children for sport, eh? I think this goes far, far beyond any meaningful academic criticism of a country or its politics, and is exactly what the article above refers to as demonization.

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Originally posted by lagatta:
A similar incident by skinheads in the former Soviet Union targeted a man of Afghan origin, who died as the result of a beating by a gang of skinhead youth.

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Skinhead vs. skinhead in the anti-racist fight

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Police in St. Petersburg say they suspect an extremist youth group of involvement in the Feb. 9 murder of a 9-year-old Tajik girl, while last Friday the Voronezh regional prosecutor's office brought charges of racially motivated murder against three young men suspected of murdering a medical student from Guinea-Bissau in Voronezh on Feb. 21

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"If the government isn't going to do anything about fascists, then civilians will have to take care of it."

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[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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Originally posted by lagatta:
It does seem strange that any Russians or Poles, even if they are racists and anti-semites, should look towards the Nazis, Mein Kampf and swastikas, but I guess historical knowledge is not exactly their strong suit.

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[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Andy Social ]

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
On the topic of the demonization of Israel by the left:

Is this statement from:

a) StormFront
b) Ernst Zundel's website
c) Mein Kampf
d) rabble.ca
e) none of the above

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Oh dear. There are so many misconceptions about Zionism. Many people don't seem to realize that the Zionist movement is extremely complex. There are many different factions in it, and while psychotic hatchet job fuckpumps seem to be the order of the day in Israel right now, there are Zionist peacenicks.
The problem is that the fundie idiots have all the cash. Ariel Sharon is the richest man in Isreal and he does things that get media attention, like blowing things up.

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If you look at the hiostory from the turn of the century you will discover zionists, right up to present day, routinely target and kill civilians and kill children for sport.

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I have seen corroborated reports of the IDF acting in ways that could be construed as killing children for sport. This kind of event happens when Palestinian children and IDF soldiers get involved in games of chicken at IDF roadblocks and guard posts. Children do shit like this. Please remember that many IDF soldiers are no more than children themselves.

The Palestinian children throw rocks, the IDF guys fire warning shots, the children come back throw more stones, another warning shot, and back and forth like that. Like a game. Sooner or later one of the kids gets shot. Now did the IDF guy aim or miss?

I think this is what Wingnut is refering too.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Now did the IDF guy aim or miss?

I think this is what Wingnut is refering too.

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Should thye be using live rounds for the game, or rubber bullets?

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by lagatta:
[QB]Perhaps education about the Holocaust and Nazism should be extended to make sure kids learn that the Nazis killed millions of "white", "Christian" Slavs, and were planning to enslave the rest of those "inferior races". They also stole Polish kids considered to contain "valuable genetic material" (due to the Viking invasions of Poland and Russia). Those who did not measure up to the head-shape calculations were exterminated.

[QB]

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I think we can safely say that the NAZI's killed everyone who wasn't like them, who could be easily targeted as a scapegoat or who opposed them. They definitely treated different regions of occupation differently depending on how 'similar' to the inhabitants were.
Perhaps, this 'new' anti-semitic tendency is rooted in history. Many people in the occupied countries willingly fought in SS units, even formed their own (think SS-Charlemagne division), and perhaps felt that the 'ideals' suited them as well. Hence today there are remnants, rather snipets of experiences being passed down to younger generations, by those people in Eastern Europe who willingly benefitted from the NAZI occupation.

[ 02 April 2004: Message edited by: HalfAnHourLater ]

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Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
On the topic of the demonization of Israel by the left:

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I believe the (sub)topic was *anti-Semitism* on the left. And you know perfectly well that by this point, just assuming "demonization of Israel" and "anti-Semitism" are identical is basically trolling.

It's rather interesting, though--we have a dispute about whether a report attributes violence against Jews in Europe to young white males, mainly on the extreme right, or to Islamic immigrants, presumably mainly apolitical in left/right terms but who feel a grievance against Israel on grounds of their co-religionists (or in some cases their families) being persecuted or killed. This is believable--for instance, many people from the Lebanese diaspora have a serious hate on for Israel, due to the brutality of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

Then there's a quote from the report that attributes an *attitude* to the left, with no evidence cited, although it's clear that *none* of the violence itself can be attributed to the left (which in turn makes me wonder about the author of that specific bit of the report). And suddenly the discussion is about the big bad leftists being anti-Semitic.

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Insofar as it specifies 'Zionists', I wouldn't try to characterize it as anti-Semitic.

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That was from my post following the "baby-killers" quote. That help?

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And suddenly the discussion is about the big bad leftists being anti-Semitic.

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Personally, I don't think that 'the Left' has many genuine anti-Semites, ie: people who hate Jews for their Jewishness, but I do believe that for many on 'the Left', scholarly criticism of Israel has given way to demonization — which is why I posted the "baby-killers" quote — and what with the overlap between Jews, Israelis and Zionists, I'm not sure this is a good thing. In fact, I'm not sure it's a good thing even without.

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It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied [Israeli] voice crackles over a loudspeaker.

"Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!"

I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's cunt!"

The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.

A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.

Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered--death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo--but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.

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Political correct apologies for racist murder at its finest.

At the core of the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict is land. The Zionists and Palestinian extremists decided to turn it into a war about race and Sharon just turned it into a religious war. The reason being that normal people, Israeli or Arab, will not so easily kill or subjugate another over land. But race and religion? Well, 500 years of war in N. Ireland, the inhumanity of Apartheid and the beastiality of the holocaust demonstrate that race and religion provide the perfect rationale for any deed no matter how evil.

But I do appreciate Magoo's listing, however ignorant and stupid it was, of the white supremacists groups above.

Because who else calls for separate, yet, laughably, equal, race based states?