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Author Topic: BC Pipeline Bombings
It's Me D
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posted 17 October 2008 06:05 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I looked for a thread on this but didn't see one. I'll admit I have limited knowledge of the story, just what the MSM is reporting but I think this should be discussed here and would especially like to hear comment from BC-based-babblers. Okay here goes:

More sabotage feared after 2nd pipeline bombed in northern B.C.

quote:
Canada's pipeline industry was on high alert Thursday after two acts of sabotage in less than a week targeted EnCana sour-gas pipelines about 50 kilometres southeast of Dawson Creek, B.C., near the Alberta border.

quote:
"We believe someone or a group of people have set two deliberate explosions that were intended to rupture and blow up a natural-gas pipeline," RCMP spokesman Sgt. Tim Shields said Thursday.

quote:
Last week, a handwritten letter arrived at a newspaper in Dawson Creek calling EnCana and other energy companies "terrorists" for expanding "deadly" gas wells. The letter gave the firms a deadline to shut down operations.

quote:
"What has been disturbing for us in the area is the growing level of protest. Rather than just having a couple of people standing up at the consultation process, the groups are getting bigger, and as well, the groups tend to be following the consultation process around the province."

And from the comments to the article at CBC.ca:

quote:
While I don't think this is the right thing to do, I think it shows the frustration the public has with not being heard and truely listened to. Big oil asks, big oil gets....no matter. Let's not forget WE own this land. The people......not government, not big oil!

quote:
The political motive shouldn't be hard to figure out. Start respecting the rights of the citizens of BC and these things probably wouldn't happen. The multinationals are calling all the shots in BC and the citizens of BC that are affected by their decisions are treated like a problem to be minimized and not as a stakeholder with legitimate issues of grievance.

quote:
Good for the individuals or groups doing these explosions. too bad the explosions are not doing more damage. we need to shut these gas companies down. The real criminals are not the people bombing the sites but the gas companies who are getting away with polluting the land and air with thier burn off. EnCana can pack up and leave. we want more investment in green energy just like the rest of the world is getting!!!

quote:
So, when do we get to start calling this an Eco-fada?

From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 17 October 2008 06:40 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by It's Me D:

quote:
So, when do we get to start calling this an Eco-fada?

Neat term - I've never heard it before.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 17 October 2008 07:01 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah I included that comment just because I also liked the term. I think the comments have tended to exaggerate the political nature of these bombings though. I'm hoping some BC-based-babblers can shed some light on this "eco-fada" because honestly to me it seems about time for such a thing.
From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 17 October 2008 07:35 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm curious about one thing: can BC and Alta property owners (esp farmers) say "no" to the pipeline going through their property, or do they have no choice in the matter?
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 17 October 2008 08:56 AM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm curious about one thing: can BC and Alta property owners (esp farmers) say "no" to the pipeline going through their property, or do they have no choice in the matter?

You have no choice. Like with wells, if a company owns the sub-surface rights, they can do pretty much what they please. Read Andrew Nikiforuk's "Saboteurs: Weibo Ludwig's War Against Big Oil", and you'll get a good idea of what a landowner has to go through when the big oil plunderers set their sights on you.

The EUB, or whatever smokescreen acronym they go by now, is a typical "regulator" totally in the pocket of the multinationals.

quote:
"What has been disturbing for us in the area is the growing level of protest. Rather than just having a couple of people standing up at the consultation process, the groups are getting bigger, and as well, the groups tend to be following the consultation process around the province."

Goddamn peasants are gittin' uppity. Maybe they should start holding those "consultation processes" in secret, in another jurisdiction, so the locals don't get any funny ideas in their heads about having a say.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 17 October 2008 09:12 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Goddamn peasants are gittin' uppity. Maybe they should start holding those "consultation processes" in secret, in another jurisdiction, so the locals don't get any funny ideas in their heads about having a say.

It is an outrageous statement eh? The problem with consultations is that people show up to them expecting to be consulted.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 October 2008 09:40 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually am surprised people are not going apeshit and demanding the bombers be strung up, etc.

I still don't like the idea of blowing stuff up as a way to make your point, but this does make me ask if people in northern BC have been complaining about pipelines going through their properties.

I know if I owned some land up there and all of a sudden a bunch of trucks and excavators showed up to tear up the soil and put a pipeline underground I'd be mighty displeased.

Specially since the BC government recently changed the law to let people purchase subsurface rights under ANY land for about $25.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Toby Fourre
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posted 17 October 2008 10:00 AM      Profile for Toby Fourre        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
. . . but this does make me ask if people in northern BC have been complaining about pipelines going through their properties.

Of course. That's the problem, the complaints are falling on deaf ears.

Understand, those who choose to live off the land in Northern BC are rugged individualists. They have to be. Mother Nature insists. When these people confront the suits from big companies you can be sure that the fur flies.


From: Death Valley, BC | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 17 October 2008 10:48 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Understand, those who choose to live off the land in Northern BC are rugged individualists. They have to be. Mother Nature insists.

Not to quibble but I strongly disagree that Mother Nature insists on anything of the kind.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 17 October 2008 12:06 PM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:

Goddamn peasants are gittin' uppity. Maybe they should start holding those "consultation processes" in secret, in another jurisdiction, so the locals don't get any funny ideas in their heads about having a say.


The situation is a great example of why constitutional property rights are needed.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 17 October 2008 12:16 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ghislaine:

The situation is a great example of why constitutional property rights are needed.



Why to formalize the theft from the common treasury? We need to stop giving corporations constitutional rights and only give them to humans.

This situation is exacerbated by the fact that corporations are recognized as entities under our constitution and thus have equal rights with citizens. The last thing we need is to entrench the rights of the rich and powerful even further.

Lets imagine a corporation owns a piece of land and it is forested and they want to log right down to the salmon bearing streams banks and run their equipment through the gravel beds used for spawning. Sure give them the constitutional right to tell the rest of us to fuck off it is their land and we have no say as to their logging practices. I'll fight that!!!


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 October 2008 12:31 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Why to formalize the theft from the common treasury? We need to stop giving corporations constitutional rights and only give them to humans.
Exactly, and I do not understand why the proponents of constitutional property rights do not get this?

Nor why they don't get what you say below.

quote:
This situation is exacerbated by the fact that corporations are recognized as entities under our constitution and thus have equal rights with citizens. The last thing we need is to entrench the rights of the rich and powerful even further.

Lets imagine a corporation owns a piece of land and it is forested and they want to log right down to the salmon bearing streams banks and run their equipment through the gravel beds used for spawning. Sure give them the constitutional right to tell the rest of us to fuck off it is their land and we have no say as to their logging practices. I'll fight that!!!


Me too! Constitutional property rights do not protect anyone or anything but the rich and greedy.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Toby Fourre
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posted 17 October 2008 01:00 PM      Profile for Toby Fourre        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Exactly, and I do not understand why the proponents of constitutional property rights do not get this?

They do. That's the point. They're trying to pull a fast one on us.


From: Death Valley, BC | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 October 2008 01:09 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Toby Fourre:
They do. That's the point. They're trying to pull a fast one on us.

Well, I know that the corporations that are proposing this, which Harper is backing, know this, which is why they are pushing it. I was speaking about people such as ghislaine and others who are on the CPC bandwagon about it.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 17 October 2008 03:47 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm tempted to dig up the long-dormant thread on "property rights" I started a few years ago.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Toby Fourre
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posted 17 October 2008 03:53 PM      Profile for Toby Fourre        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's a scam. It's definitely not property rights for you and me.
From: Death Valley, BC | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 06:17 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Actually am surprised people are not going apeshit and demanding the bombers be strung up, etc.

I still don't like the idea of blowing stuff up as a way to make your point, but this does make me ask if people in northern BC have been complaining about pipelines going through their properties.

I know if I owned some land up there and all of a sudden a bunch of trucks and excavators showed up to tear up the soil and put a pipeline underground I'd be mighty displeased.

Specially since the BC government recently changed the law to let people purchase subsurface rights under ANY land for about $25.


The trouble with bombs is that they have a bad habit of blowing up people you don't intend to blow up. While I think breaking the law is sometimes called for, it's not something I'd ever resort to under any circumstances. And I have little sympathy for people who get caught using such tactics.

On many scores, we have a right to be angry. And we shouldn't be so philisophically constrained by laws that are formuated by this kleptocracy. But anger is a rather stupid and useless emotion at best, destructive most commonly, unless it is directed with surgical precision.

That having been said, I think the only times I know of where bombs have been used without them being supplied or encouraged by the RCMP was the abortion clinic terror bombings, and the bombings of B.C. Hydro towers years ago.

So, I think the RCMP is, logically, the place to start this investigation.

If I was a resident up there, I'd be pretty upset. Natural gas can be dangerous, of course, but hydrogen sulfide is quite another thing.

Wikipedia, Hydrogen Sulfide

Hydrogen Sulfide is heavier than air. When you hear about people dying in ceptic tanks or old wells, it's the usual culprit.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 18 October 2008 06:56 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By the sound of it, the bombers were amateurs, who had no idea of the strength of the pipeline. If they'd attached a thermite charge to the top of the pipeline, the molten iron produced by the reaction (around 2000 °C) might well have melted its way through the pipe and ignited the gas inside.

But as Tommy_Paine points out, it's probably a good thing that they didn't do it.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 07:05 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm old fashioned, I guess. I can't see bombs as anything but the most cowardly form of protest.

If you think you are right, then stand up.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 18 October 2008 08:51 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I know. I'd never advocate doing this. Years ago I had thoughts of blowing up the gas station I worked at, because I hated my boss so much, but that was never more than an idle revenge fantasy.
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 October 2008 08:57 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Tommy_Paine: I'm old fashioned, I guess. I can't see bombs as anything but the most cowardly form of protest.

Violent means of protest are typically the last resort in circumstances where all other forms of protest are MET with violence or silenced in some other way. That is how, for example, Umkonto we Sizwe, the armed wing of the ANC, was formed. In those circumstances it was the evil Apartheid regime that was cowardly, not those who opposed it.

I don't know the details in this case ... but I would guess that peaceful means of protest haven't been exhausted. That's the key question in my humble view.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 09:06 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's hard to argue the dangers of such a pipeline, either to the environment at large, or individual property owners and then blow up such a pipeline spewing burning or, even worse, not burning gas into the atmosphere. Into low lying areas where animals and humans might wander into.

And die rather quickly. Which would lead to others going to the rescue and dying just as quickly.

If it's local property owners who are upset by this, I deeply sympathise with their cause. Not only is this stuff dangerous, we have governments with a proven track record of poor safety enforcement, and a criminal justice system that lets corporations do as they wish with no consequence.

So there is little incentive for them to be responsible.

That's why I'd say that normal legal boundries shouldn't confine the thinking of those protesting these pipelines. The laws are hardly valid when they are founded in cronyism, and not the public good.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 04:04 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:

Violent means of protest are typically the last resort in circumstances where all other forms of protest are MET with violence or silenced in some other way.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


I quite agree. I think one has to exhaust all the peacefull avenues, and in doing so, whatever violence one does have to resort to in the end, would surely not be initiated by anyone but those in power, first.

And a violent response to tyranny is the debt owed to our forebearers-- and our children.

Bombs though, are the weapons of cowards-- and the coward's coward, the agent provocatuer.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 18 October 2008 04:34 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

Bombs though, are the weapons of cowards-- and the coward's coward, the agent provocatuer.

This is an interesting comment however I disagree.

The bomb is only a tool.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 04:50 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An indescriminate one, at that. And one that allows the user to run away and hide from what he or she has done.
From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 18 October 2008 06:12 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm old fashioned, I guess. I can't see bombs as anything but the most cowardly form of protest.

Actually, non-violence is a modern invention. It's violent protest and sabotage that is has a long heritage -- it was the only way for peasants to fight back. And Thomas Paine advocated violent revolution!

Non-destruction of property is an even newer perversion of Gandhian non-violence.

Interesting though, violence only usually comes from the right or some random place in Canada. The left is usually too chickenshit.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 October 2008 06:21 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
An indescriminate one, at that. And one that allows the user to run away and hide from what he or she has done.

Unless they had a electronic or timed dentonator, I am not so sure they could have run away if successful.

All the communties and residents who live near that pipeline, have emergency protocals to invoke if the the line breaks, for whatever reason. Which are really too funny, when you read them, as most would be dead from the toxic gas, or on the receiving end of a fire ball engulfing everything in the area. And if it should happen in the summer when it is dry, it could literally destroy the whole central interior region and north to almost Ft St John.

Moreover, it is not a question of "if" that pipeline breaks, it is a question of "when" that pipeline breaks. The whole area in that region is geographically unstable and there has already been an oil pipeline break in the same area.

When one of the fellows from what is now called Encana brought the emergency protocols into my office to go over them with me, as a community leader, I told him that they would be utterly useless to the community, as everyone would be trapped and ded within minutes. Got a shrug, and he basically said they would deal with their effectiveness, or lack of, if and when something happened.

As such, the fact is there are "acceptable" loss numbers factored in because of the isolation. And you are correct tommy when you say:

quote:
The laws are hardly valid when they are founded in cronyism, and not the public good.

In the area where the pipeline is, there is nothing but cronyism controlling everything, and I mean everything. The same asshats sit on every board, district, regional, provincial and national available, and I have seen first hand kickbacks received. And I mean really first hand, as close as you can get without being the one who provided the actual money.

Moreover, the same ones have been doing so since the days of WAC Bennett, and waiting for them to die does no damn good, I found, because they make sure they are mentor to another and put them into position, before they retire or die. There is never a shortage of greedy power hugry people willing to exploit others, it seems. The best one could do was to cut off some of their revenue streams and power base. But that too comes/came with huge personal rammifications.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 06:32 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Interesting though, violence only usually comes from the right or some random place in Canada. The left is usually too chickenshit."


Wasn't always so. It was the left in Canada that first faught fascism.

Today, it's almost as if pacifism is a prerequisite for admission to left wing politics.

Ironically, if we on the left wanted gun control, and an immediate end to the Afghan mission, we should all take out FAC's.

The Harper government would bring in gun prohibition, and bring the soldiers back to go house to house to enforce it.

Seriously though, on the issue of violence the matter is not in our hands. If we are serious about democratizing the system, or even "fighting the patriarchy" as some are wont to say, it is naive to expect Canada's establishment to be different from all the others current and past, and share power without first shedding blood. Mostly ours.

It is the way of things.


Thomas Paine, like Ben Franklin, believed in exhausting all peacefull avenues first, which I believe they did. Interestingly, when Paine left America to take part in the French Revolution, it was on the condition that the French Royal Family not be harmed. A rather naive sentiment, really. It came close--perhaps minutes or hours-- to costing Paine his own head durring the latter stages of the "terror".

... wonder if de Sade and Paine ever met...? I think they were both scheduled for a meeting with the guilotine on the same day.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 18 October 2008 06:42 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm... I think the Sam Adams was the rabble rousing militant. Thomas Paine was the pamphleteer?
From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 06:42 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On what I see as a related matter, we had a corporation blow up an entire neighborhood and cover it with asbestos dust this summer.

Where's that investigation at the moment?

And why do people who live in this neighborhood lay down for such things?


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 18 October 2008 06:50 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ceti:

Interesting though, violence only usually comes from the right or some random place in Canada. The left is usually too chickenshit.


Possibly, the left in North America scores lower than Right Wing Authoritarians on the zealotry scale (See Altemeyer)

However I have to think that the left here has looked at where political violence gets you and has decided that it's worse than where we are now.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 06:53 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ceti:
Hmm... I think the Sam Adams was the rabble rousing militant. Thomas Paine was the pamphleteer?

Paine was an auto didact who began life as a corset maker. Already two areas of interest he and I share. I admire his rhetorical style. I'm not sure if it was his writing abilities, or the weakness of the position of his opponents that made him seem so brilliant. Anyway, his slice and dice of Edmund Burke in "The Rights of Man" is something to behold.

And of course, even if many who quote it do not know who wrote it, "These are the times that try men's souls" has entered the English language as an icon.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 October 2008 07:08 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
And why do people who live in this neighborhood lay down for such things?
No leaders willing to get involved, or external support for their plight as the outside population is easily distracted and trying to survive themselves to give support. I keep wondering how many more straws it will take to get the masses involved in a huge protest to change the system.

In the case of the sour gas pipeline here, most community members have no idea of the situation they are in. Community leaders do not share that information with them, as they are not allowed.

Have been thinking about the protocals, I believe they stated there would be an immediate 12km, impact site if something happened and how far it went beyond that, fire wise, would depend on the season, and how far the toxic gas carried would be dependant upon the wind velocity and direction. And of course upon how soon someone could get in a message to shut down the flow.

That it was ever allowed to be put where it is boggles the mind, and in part, I blame quite frankly the lower mainland and VIsland environmentalists, amongst other things I blame them for, who won't bestir themselves out of the golden triangle to any great extent. But for Encana and the BC liberals it comes down to acceptable numbers of population loss, when something happens.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 October 2008 07:09 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
However I have to think that the left here has looked at where political violence gets you and has decided that it's worse than where we are now.

I remember the Fleck Strike, and I was just at an age when I might have been old enough to skip school and go on the bus with the guys from Ford, but my brother-- perhaps wisely-- forbid me from attending.

I remember how "tough" the OPP were when it came to kicking around pregnant women, but got all reasonable when the guys showed up with two by fours and baseball bats.

Even years later, when police were getting out of hand in Toronto protests under the Harris regime, things got more orderly when Buz said it was time for the CAW to get involved.

Have you ever seen an umpire in baseball change a call because a manager came out of the dugout and argued with him? Never. Why does the manager argue, then?

Because he's arguing over the next call.

The trouble with violence is, as Sun Tzu pointed out, it's like fire. Easy to start, but hard to put out. Political violence is more often than not poorly directed, and the people who should be bearing the brunt of it, rarely do.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 18 October 2008 07:32 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When you ethical souls discuss "political violence", I take it you naturally include what we are doing in Afghanistan and First Nations territories... Seems to work for some folks.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 18 October 2008 07:43 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was being a bit terse, but I don't think we disagree much, clearly self defense is a good option. I was thinking about larger scale offensive violence, up to an including revolution. I can't think of an example where that turned out well immediately. Possibly better than the prior situation, and possibly a basis for future improvement, but the immediate aftermath? Not so good.

As a smaller point, I was trying to think of successful political assassinations, where success is defined as achieving the political ends, not getting the killing done. Rabin is the only unequivocal example I can think of. Anybody know any others?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 October 2008 07:50 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What are you trying say martin, come and say it bluntly!
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Politics101
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posted 18 October 2008 09:00 PM      Profile for Politics101   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Encana and the BC liberals

When was this pipeline built?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 18 October 2008 09:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
What are you trying say martin, come and say it bluntly!

He is saying less pipelines might not be a bad thing.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 18 October 2008 09:26 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
An indescriminate one, at that. And one that allows the user to run away and hide from what he or she has done.

I believe this is acceptable in these cases.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
NorthReport
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posted 18 October 2008 09:42 PM      Profile for NorthReport     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's Me D

Just a little appreciation to you for not using the term "terrorist" in thread title.

Thanks.


From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 18 October 2008 10:07 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's pretty shocking, that the companies who have run these pipelines have basically admitted that they have no good protections in place to prevent whole communities from dying if an accident happens.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 18 October 2008 11:26 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
That's pretty shocking, that the companies who have run these pipelines have basically admitted that they have no good protections in place to prevent whole communities from dying if an accident happens.

ya, I was pretty shocked too, but as the fellow remined me, how can they possibly cover the whole area of the pipeline.

We had a number to call so they could turn the flow off.
------------------------------

This was in 2001/2002 Politics101


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 19 October 2008 01:44 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I originally posted this on another forum but it never made the page. I'll post it here because it's helpful info , so if it seems out of context that's why.Something that seems to get lost in the mix is what sour gas is. Hydrogen sulphide and methane..hence (sour)..pure methane is sweet gas..hence (sweet). Natural gas is methane mixed with mercaptan (scent) and other minute chemicals, but at least 70% methane.

The sweet gas is what runs thru most pipelines before the conversion to so called natural gas.

Sure there is the poisonous aspect of hydrogen sulphide but they all have the potentially explosive aspect of methane. Which when combusted produces carbon monoxide....so even if a fireball occurs ( burns paper from kilometeres away)...there is the potential of permenent brain damage from enhaling CO. The blast wave is pretty big also.Go ask the military...they have what they call fuel/air explosives(fae's) missiles that operate the same way a pipeline leak does. Methane is dispersed..mixs with air..then a charge lights it...then BOOM. What is really funny...if you can find any humor in this , are the excuses gas companies use when a detonation occurs....ignition from passing car...a cigarette....friction of the earth. The fact is in most cases they don't know, so it is always safe to assume that if there is a leak, when it reaches the right air gas mixture...BOOM.

So the sour gas would be actually worse...hydrogen sulphide...fuel/air explosive nature of methane ...then carbon monoxide poisoning. Remember the mine accident in the states a few years back. Gas explosion many dead but a sole survivor with brain damage. Serious stuff and to think it's virtually everywhere. From pencil thin ,low pressure gas in everyones home too high pressure huge pipelines in the country.
--------------------------------------------------
Safety…gimmee a break! Just today on a cbc interview with a spokesperson from encana it was mentioned 1) the leak was detected by electricians that just happened to be working there hearing the hissing sound of gas escaping. 2) The spokes person then said they have a computerized system that detects changes in pressure and shuts a line down when the change occurs.

So little leaks, that can leak forever will go undetected ..very little short term profit loss? Big leaks that cause major pressure loss…short term extreme profit loss. Safety NO - Profit YES.

No gas company can guarantee safety and there are cases mainly in the USA where undetected leaks have travelled many miles underground to eventually erupt in towns. Mainly causing fires. A pipeline leaked in Saskatchewan once that had the computerized system . http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/pipe/1994/p94h0003/p94h0003.asp After reading this there should be no doubt, that it’s just a matter of time before pipelines start falling apart everywhere.

While the csa has guidelines they are not for you but for the gas site only, but they do recommend plans for evacs etc. God help you if the gas company partners with a crown outfit, that way the company can circumvent regulations like they don’t even exist. The problem is the government.. .they are the regulator…they allow dangerous operations to exist…they allow for toothless standards, and as witnessed in Ontario recently allow for unsafe operations till they litterly blow up in your face.

What you can do is make your own safety plan in case of accidents.
http://www.getprepared.gc.ca/index_e.asp

If you are worried or don’t know if you are in a risk zone there is software that will calculate it for you that is available from the epa.
http://www.epa.gov/emergencies/content/cameo/aloha.htm

Gas companies have the same or better software, now you will have the knowledge they keep from you as you can now calculate the danger they put you in.

The software covers all kinds of chemicals , gas and every Canadian should have it , especially if they are near gas lines or storage facility’s ,Chlorine plants or any other facility.

One thing to keep in mind about modelling software..because we humans don't know it all and software is only as good as our knowledge...things are usually way worse than the models predict.

Just look at global warming and how as computer power increased, global warming models predicted times pointing too 500 years (10 years ago) and then went too 50 (5 years ago).


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
admin
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posted 19 October 2008 02:40 PM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting enough, while getting our breakfast at Ma's Place in Dawson, and it being around six in the morning Saturday, about five of the investigators, three of them in their RCMP coveralls happened to sit down for breakfast as well, right next to us.

We were visiting our grandchildren and taking a few things up for our daughters.

Now what was interesting is that having seen the lay of the land in 2030( can't recall the website) I was somewhat dismayed about the pipeline and how it shall look, also included a directional flow one way.

I wonder if most of you know which way that was? Wilson would have a better perspective in regards to Keystone

Ya so, while there I am being snoopy and thinking I should ask some questions. I listened to how they were actually measuring the depth of the hole(6ft) and use dogs to smell for the shrapnel. The hole was a procedure that was typical of how they measure something( my son in law mentioned something about this that lead me to believe that it had to be somebody familiar with the system.)

WE drove through Tomslake B.C.( area that was the location of the blasts) to go to our grandson's hockey game in Grande Prairie. I can't remember to much more after having a few drinks in the local bar with my son and son in laws, later that night while discussing the matter.

I just thought the better of it and continued to talk to my wife about the legal aspects of cons being perpetrated on the elderly in our country.

Yes, land rights underneath what people own can be bought and are, by oil companies. There is some issue with this and I can relate because of the attempt to drill quite close, 250 meters( correction made here on double checking distance) from my daughter and son-in law's place, with three of my grandchildren. My son in law's father has four wells on his cattle farm and they have an agreement in terms of a flat rate for the year, and restoration back to farmland.

Since my son-in-law was gassed, and almost died by the H2s, he understands the problem with this.

Why he was able to persuade them to go to the backside of of the eighty acres( highway access).

Directional drilling is a way to get to deposits on land that it's owners refuse(?), so the idea of directional drilling leaves open how some resistance can be put up to thwart these desires by oil companies? I am not sure here. So if one takes a stand it is hoped that the neighbours do not undercut this refusal and allows them to drill from that location

Anyway a heavy police presence for sure. Good thing we had booked our hotel before hand.

Best,

Correction made from "Thompson lake" to "Tomslake"

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: admin ]


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
ThePB
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posted 20 October 2008 04:39 PM      Profile for ThePB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What keeps bothering me is the 2 British 'insurgents' - special forces, in fact - who were captured by Iraqi police with bomb making equipent in their car. They had shot another Iraqi policeman, had been captured and were 'busted out' by British forces. Remeber that?

Harper has signed the SPP, finalizing the militarized NAFTA 'partnership' that allows US troops on our soil - if there's a terrorist attack, such as these bombings, which have only started in earnest since after the February signing.


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 21 October 2008 04:14 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lack of info about industry upsets residents near B.C. pipeline explosions

quote:

DAWSON CREEK, B.C. - Among the rolling hills and farmland of B.C. oil country, rumours abound about the safety of the burgeoning oil and gas industry.

In the aftermath of two recent attacks on gas pipelines, answers are still few and far between.

RCMP said Monday they've ruled out one possible lead in the two attacks - a suspicious truck spotted near the scene hours after the second explosion along a pipeline in the middle of last week.


[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
admin
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posted 21 October 2008 06:22 AM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tomslake, B.C-ah yes. Memory not so good. Sorry there.

To add to my state of confusion, I thought I was actually "travelling north" from Pouce Coupe. Yikes!

Some of this resentment from what I understand extends to the methodology of corporate citizenship "to brand their names" on public institutions by donation? I think this may be a interesting topic itself? Maybe a "social policy and exemption" with regard to municipal and governmental institutions?

A furthering of the idea that there is no "safe place" that capitalism does not control some aspect of society and it's thinking as a "free and democratic one."

Best,

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: admin ]

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: admin ]


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
admin
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posted 21 October 2008 06:53 AM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ThePB:
Harper has signed the SPP, finalizing the militarized NAFTA 'partnership' that allows US troops on our soil - if there's a terrorist attack, such as these bombings, which have only started in earnest since after the February signing.

I don't think one should be to naive to think that there was not exchanges taking place between countries in terms of training of troops within our borders from other countries. I had British Officers at the time of my training, and worked with Americans to guards nukes on our soil.

I would suspect investigation procedures would be of concern and expertise, but the rights under a plan like Nafta has gone way beyond what should be acceptable, as too degrading "sovereignty of our Canadian Institution." "No borders" is a capitalist agenda with regard to profit and market control? "No border" should mean a common recognition of the values of democracy on all levels, and the recognition of a degradation thereof?

Best,


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
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posted 21 October 2008 07:06 AM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Farmers, ranchers and landowners / property owners in Alberta are at the mercy of their own government and the oil companies.

The E.U.B. hired private investigators to spy on landowners during hearings. The landowners feel that the E.U.B.'s purpose is to rubber stamp all oil and powerline projects.

Alberta's lakes, rivers, forests, wild life such as the endangered grizzly bear, and First Nations communities are also forfeit.

quote:
Alberta Environment is not doing its duty in monitoring and addressing what the impacts are. They tend to minimize [the impacts of the tar sands development], and their position seems to be primarily to run interference for the [companies]. They would never close the taps on tar sands projects, even if the water levels became very, very low.

Essentially, Scott proclaims, a number of people in Alberta are now finding themselves living in what he calls the government’s “sacrifice zone.”

KAWS co-chair Harvey Scott

From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 21 October 2008 09:13 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TemporalHominid:
Farmers, ranchers and landowners / property owners in Alberta are at the mercy of their own government and the oil companies.

The E.U.B. hired private investigators to spy on landowners during hearings. The landowners feel that the E.U.B.'s purpose is to rubber stamp all oil and powerline projects.

Alberta's lakes, rivers, forests, wild life such as the endangered grizzly bear, and First Nations communities are also forfeit.

KAWS co-chair Harvey Scott


This is the terror aspect of oil and gas....they are above the law in many respects as they are allowed to poison water and create cancer and hence kill people and get away with it. For some reason government allows them too and police protect them from the victim(s).

It's terror because if any body poisoned a water supply they would be considered a terrorist. Never mind all the dangerous aspects of gas and oil...just the simple contaminating of peoples water suppy is enough.

Remember the russians when they poisoned water holes with yellow rain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-2_mycotoxin

But unlike these acts of terror that just destroy your neurological system..oil and gas company's will poison you to death and as been shown now , have poisoned people to death. Should it matter if they are indians?

Oh I almost forgot..when you develop a safety plan you must keep in mind that if you are using a internal combustion engine as your escape vehicle from a toxic gas leak that the fuel air mixture might not allow for the vehicle to start. Remember your car needs a fuel/oxygen mixture to work. As sweet gas is odorless that's something to keep in mind asthe parts per million count rises, at least the sour gas(scent) you know and you can probably out race it.

There have been cases where chlorine leaks have rendered vehicles usless also.Now I bet they don't tell the public all this crap when they have there meetings do they? Regarding meetings I would encourage people to study up on delphi techiques.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi_method

Oil and gas have been around for quite a while and they have developed and honed there throat ramming agenda for years. So you have to be extra cautious especially at meetings. They can turn entire community's against you or a group.

How to disrupt delphi techniques:

http://www.nogw.com/documents/_07_defeating_delphi.pdf

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: Buddy Kat ]

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: Buddy Kat ]


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 October 2008 01:30 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
someone named Catherine posted on tree of liberty blog

quote:
Planned attack from outsiders or even ones in our own government to promote a false flag event/attack for more bs laws, agendas and perhaps martial law down the road.

Catherine
Armed and Female
Montana


The "strategy of tension" is ongoing. Canadians just aren't fearful enough perhaps since the days of phony FLQ crisis


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HUAC
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posted 21 October 2008 02:21 PM      Profile for HUAC   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Buddy Kat:


Remember the russians when they poisoned water holes with yellow rain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-2_mycotoxin


Bedunked 25 years ago. Turned out to bee friends of Billy Bee, the honey bee. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9F05E5DC1139F93BA15752C1A965948260


From: Ottawa | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
admin
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posted 22 October 2008 01:25 AM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
These were emailed to me sometime back.

Pictures from the Oil Patch
Click on photo


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
admin
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posted 22 October 2008 01:58 AM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ThePB:
Harper has signed the SPP, finalizing the militarized NAFTA 'partnership' that allows US troops on our soil - if there's a terrorist attack, such as these bombings, which have only started in earnest since after the February signing.

Just doing a little research behind statement of ThePB's

quote:
At this point some might say that I have gone off the deep end on these topics, but I ask your indulgence as much of this has already come to pass and so that cannot be disputed. But there is much more to come and most of us haven’t a clue, since much is being accomplished behind closed doors and with few if any outsiders in attendance. NAFTA and the SPP are here and that is not in dispute, but other new interlocking agreements that are in the making and we will only hear of them only after they are a fait accompli, such as the recent agreement to use armed Canadian troops on U.S. soil during emergencies and vice versa for the Canadians. You might keep in mind that this agreement was signed by two rather unknown General Officers and was not approved of by our Congress or by our President, at least not on the agreement.
Major Frank C. Stolz (USMC Ret.,)

I do draw attention to bold and ask if anyone knows what he is talking about? Maybe under a new thread heading?

[ 22 October 2008: Message edited by: admin ]


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 22 October 2008 08:39 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HUAC:

Bedunked 25 years ago. Turned out to bee friends of Billy Bee, the honey bee. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9F05E5DC1139F93BA15752C1 A965948260


Boy did that one miss me or what....They sure didn't spend any time pointing out there disinformation campaign...You should of seen the reports back then..just like the WMD campaign.To think they were all lies from the highest places.

This makes what is happening in Alberta/BC all that more worse ...as sinster as the US disinformation campaigns was...Russians painted as the worst demons of the planet because they would stoop so low as too poison peoples water.What is happening in Alberta /BC is actually happening...no sinister lies required.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
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posted 22 October 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by admin:
[/URL]Major Frank C. Stolz (USMC Ret.,)

I do draw attention to bold and ask if anyone knows what he is talking about? Maybe under a new thread heading?

[ 22 October 2008: Message edited by: admin ]


I actually have a hard time believing an agreement like that was signed for the type of emergency's people think. Canada has always been somewhat prepared for emergency's ..look at the ice storms in Quebec..Canada handled it.

I think this agreement is meant for biological attacks. As it would be easy for americans to herd and kill Canadians to contain the virus. The same with americans...it would be easy for Canadians to herd and kill americans knowing they are doing the same in Canada.....it would be TOUGH for soldiers from there respective countries to kill there own family, countrymen!

I wouldn't be surprised if the generals in question that signed the agreements are under the umbrella of chemical warfare. It doesn't have to be a biolgical attack either it could be a bird flu or any other thing that scares the dickens out of neocons.

Remember a virus doesn't give a crap about how much money you have or if your good little tory..it's indiscriminate and can't be controlled.I believe the whole agreement is based on Liberal /Conservative paranoia.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
scott
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posted 02 November 2008 06:51 PM      Profile for scott   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A third pipeline explosion occurred on Friday:

quote:
Another explosion hit an EnCana Corp. sour-gas pipeline in B.C. Friday afternoon, this time near the small community of Tomslake, south of Dawson Creek near the Alberta border, the RCMP said.

... "The site is about 12 kilometres northwest of the community of Tomslake … The explosion appears to have been deliberately detonated and is located in a rural isolated area," he said.

The explosion caused a small gas leak that was quickly contained by EnCana engineers.

The leak did not pose any danger to the public, and there is no report of any injuries, Shields said.

... A threatening letter was sent to Dawson Creek media prior to the first explosion. The letter called Encana, which is based in Calgary, and other energy companies "terrorists" for expanding deadly gas wells and gave the companies a deadline to shut down their operations.


from:
CBC: 3rd pipeline explosion in northeastern B.C. in October


From: Kootenays BC | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trexx
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posted 02 November 2008 07:40 PM      Profile for Trexx     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by admin:
Interesting enough, while getting our breakfast at Ma's Place in Dawson, and it being around six in the morning Saturday, about five of the investigators, three of them in their RCMP coveralls happened to sit down for breakfast as well, right next to us.

We were visiting our grandchildren and taking a few things up for our daughters.

Now what was interesting is that having seen the lay of the land in 2030( can't recall the website) I was somewhat dismayed about the pipeline and how it shall look, also included a directional flow one way.

I wonder if most of you know which way that was? Wilson would have a better perspective in regards to Keystone

Ya so, while there I am being snoopy and thinking I should ask some questions. I listened to how they were actually measuring the depth of the hole(6ft) and use dogs to smell for the shrapnel. The hole was a procedure that was typical of how they measure something( my son in law mentioned something about this that lead me to believe that it had to be somebody familiar with the system.)

WE drove through Tomslake B.C.( area that was the location of the blasts) to go to our grandson's hockey game in Grande Prairie. I can't remember to much more after having a few drinks in the local bar with my son and son in laws, later that night while discussing the matter.

I just thought the better of it and continued to talk to my wife about the legal aspects of cons being perpetrated on the elderly in our country.

Yes, land rights underneath what people own can be bought and are, by oil companies. There is some issue with this and I can relate because of the attempt to drill quite close, 250 meters( correction made here on double checking distance) from my daughter and son-in law's place, with three of my grandchildren. My son in law's father has four wells on his cattle farm and they have an agreement in terms of a flat rate for the year, and restoration back to farmland.

Since my son-in-law was gassed, and almost died by the H2s, he understands the problem with this.

Why he was able to persuade them to go to the backside of of the eighty acres( highway access).

Directional drilling is a way to get to deposits on land that it's owners refuse(?), so the idea of directional drilling leaves open how some resistance can be put up to thwart these desires by oil companies? I am not sure here. So if one takes a stand it is hoped that the neighbours do not undercut this refusal and allows them to drill from that location

Anyway a heavy police presence for sure. Good thing we had booked our hotel before hand.

Best,

Correction made from "Thompson lake" to "Tomslake"

[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: admin ]


Hi newbie here.

Thought I would chip in with a bit of info.
Hydrogen sulphide is extremely toxic.
In the presence of water vapour it rapidly becomes Sulphuric acid:H2S...H2SO4
Extremely nasty stuff.

I am not sure about well spacings as it changes from place to place.

The subsurface rights are somewhat like the surface rights, anyone can bid on them and buy them. Some land holders own both the surface and subsurface rights.
If an oil company owns the subsurface rights to your land they have every legal right to exploit any subsurface resources.
They must compensate the landowner for,time, trouble, inconvenience and damages.
They make a cash proposal.
If the landowner is unsatisfied it goes to review.
If the landowner is still unsatisfied it goes to arbitration.
In the end the oil companies WILL exploit the resource, all that is in question is compensation.
Usually they will pay moderately well just to make the landowner shut up and go away
Directional drilling is very common these days however it adds considerably to drilling costs.
Directional drilling can easily move the well surface location 100s or maybe even 1000 meters away from its original location.
Considering how toxic H2S gas is I would always pressure an oil company to move its wells away from any residences. They will directional drill it if they have to.
Trex

[ 02 November 2008: Message edited by: Trexx ]


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 03 November 2008 01:07 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Regardless of what I think of the bombings. Here is a slogan i think we all remember.

We are fighting the terrorists over there so we don't have to fight them here.

Because unless they find out that all these bombing are islamic terror cells that aren't targeting people for some reason. Then it would be internal white people(I presume) to worry about not brown people from external threats. The T.O. 17 aside, what terrorism has been in canada since 2001(no cheating, you can't count state terrorism, like the spp infiltrators) umm this is it. I view them as eco-freedom fighters. Esp because it isn't near populated(human) places.


From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
admin
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posted 03 November 2008 01:23 AM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Trexx:

Hi newbie here.

Thought I would chip in with a bit of info.
Hydrogen sulphide is extremely toxic.
In the presence of water vapour it rapidly becomes Sulphuric acid:H2S...H2SO4
Extremely nasty stuff.
Trex


Thanks for the update of info. Are you from the area and working in the business?

Best,


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
admin
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posted 03 November 2008 01:30 AM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When the Oilpatch Comes to Your Backyard: A Citizens' Guide, 2nd Edition
Published: Nov 1, 2004

By: Mary Griffiths, Chris Severson-Baker, Thomas Marr-Laing

quote:
"When the Oilpatch Comes to Your Backyard: A Citizens' Guide" informs landowners and the public about each stage in oil and gas development (from seismic exploration to reclamation) and how potential impacts on air, land and water can be minimized. It tells landowners about their surface rights and suggests questions to ask before signing a lease or right-of-entry agreement. The guide outlines requirements for wells, pipelines and facilities and explains the role of various government boards, as well as the appropriate dispute resolution process. This completely revised edition includes new sections on coalbed methane and updated information on legislation and regulations.

The 172-page guide can be purchased in hard copy format only from the Pembina Institute.


The Pembina Institute


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
admin
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posted 03 November 2008 06:53 AM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When the Landman Comes Knocking
A Toolkit for BC Landowners Living with Oil and Gas, October, 2004

Karen Campbell, West Coast Environmental Law
Tim Howard, Sierra Legal Defence Fund

quote:
Introduction

Oil and gas development in British Columbia is increasing. The number of wells being
drilled in BC has doubled in the past 2 years. In 2002, 643 wells were drilled in BC. This
number jumped to 1,041 in 2003 and in 2004, is expected to be in the range of 1,350.
And as the industry grows, more and more landowners face the prospect of exploration
and production activities on their homes, ranches, farms and recreation properties.
Most of this activity is occurring in northeast BC, which holds the western tip of the
Western Canadian Sedimentary Basin, the most productive source of gas in Canada for the
past century. Increased development in the northeast means that new wells will be drilled
closer to homes and communities than in the past. However, as this basin matures, governments are looking for new sources of gas, such as coalbed methane.

Coalbed methane development is key to the BC government’s plans to expand the oil and gas industry throughout the province. A number of experimental or exploratory coalbed methane projects are already underway in BC, although commercial production has not yet commenced. Most of the gas potential in the province is found in the northeast and the southeast. Other coalfields
exist on Vancouver Island, the south-central Interior (Hat Creek, Merritt, Princeton), Bowron River, Telkwa, and the Queen Charlotte Islands. The 11 experimental projects have resulted in approximately 40 wells being drilled in BC to date, primarily in the northeast, but also in the Elk Valley, and on Vancouver Island. Exploratory activity is also underway in Princeton and in northwest BC near Iskut


When the Landman Comes Knocking

[ 03 November 2008: Message edited by: admin ]


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Trexx
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posted 03 November 2008 04:34 PM      Profile for Trexx     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by admin:

Thanks for the update of info. Are you from the area and working in the business?

Best,


Born in Vancouver Island.
Live in Alberta.

Working in a oil&gas associated business in Europe.

I am fairly familiar with the area and know the business well.

On another note.
The guides you listed appear to be excellent.
Absolute required reading if an O&G outfit is moving into the area where you reside.

As the guide states going to arbitration is nothing to fear. It can help to insure you get a fair shake.

If you accept that they are going to drill on your land your new mission should be: a) to minimize any and all impacts from drilling.
And b) extracting every last nickel and benefit from the O&G company that you can.

Examples:
Once they start drilling tell them the noise and smell and traffic is destroying your life. Demand compensation.

Same as above its happening to your livestock.
Demand compensation.

Claim your entire farming operation has become or is becoming both bio-sustainable and organic.
Demand remediation, equipment, monitoring services and compensation.

Claim litter from the site is blowing all over your land. Volunteer to have your kids police the area for litter.
Charge them $35/hour for the service.

Make them fence the entire area and road,then put in gates and cattle guards.
No cattle? Tell them your getting some.
Or tell them your protecting wildlife.

Get your wells tested before they start.
Any problems make them drill new deep water wells and install pumps.

Offer to supply drinking water to the site.
Buy a large food grade plastic tank and chain it on a rented trailer.Rent or buy a little pump.
Fill it from the town water supply or your own wells. Tow it out there every 3 or 4 days and fill their tanks.
Charge the hell out of them.

Every time you see heavy equipment working see if you can figure out a way to put it to use.
Say they have a backhoe.
Go to the site and politely ask if they could possibly deepen one of your dugouts at their convenience.
When backhoe guy comes and asks where the dugout is point to where you want a new one and say start deepening right there.

Try to make your demands seem perfectly reasonable but never stop.

I could go on and on.

Obviously you would need to have a somewhat cordial relationship with the workers to pull this off. A polite but slightly adversarial attitude probably would work best.
Most of these guys have been around long enough to know you are going to look after yourself and your family as best you can.

As for the guys sympathizing with people blowing up sour gas pipelines.
That's flat wrong.
They should be charged with attempted murder.
That gas is incredibly toxic.
Trying to blow up a gas pipeline is about as understandable as trying to light up a fuel tanker next to a playground.
Wrong is wrong.
Trex


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 03 November 2008 08:28 PM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Since you work in the patch you should be aware ofthis Which happens when you pump something you shouldn't. Notice they aren't blowing the line up or near urban areas. So since politicians aren't listening to people I think they have decided to take matter into their own hands. They obviously have knowledge of explosive or they could just have used a lot and blown it up sky high...hey maybe you can be happy when they screw up and kill themselves.
When have you seen joe average beet the corporations for 'compensation' without losing 90% of it to lawyers. Oh BTW some people do things for reasons other than money...you know like HEALTH.

From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Trexx
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posted 03 November 2008 09:24 PM      Profile for Trexx     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thorin_bane:
Since you work in the patch you should be aware ofthis Which happens when you pump something you shouldn't. Notice they aren't blowing the line up or near urban areas. So since politicians aren't listening to people I think they have decided to take matter into their own hands. They obviously have knowledge of explosive or they could just have used a lot and blown it up sky high...hey maybe you can be happy when they screw up and kill themselves.
When have you seen joe average beet the corporations for 'compensation' without losing 90% of it to lawyers. Oh BTW some people do things for reasons other than money...you know like HEALTH.

thorin_bane,

Indeed I do work in the "patch" and I am well aware on how thin the ice of this forum is for someone in my profession.
However I do my job as safely and responsibly as I can and have no problems sleeping at night.
I presently work in Europe and I can tell you that the UK, Norway, Denmark and Holland are some of the world leaders in environmentally correct drilling and producing oil and gas.
Pollution,spills,hazards and environmental impact are rigorously monitored.
True their is always room for improvement but at least over here they do try to minimize the impact of production.
Of course most dedicated environmentalists still oppose the operations.
Its a tough call but ultimately we live in a carbon driven economy.
Almost all plastics, fertilizers, carbon based chemicals, carbon based pharmaceuticals are derived from oil and gas production.
From the clothes on your back, to the fuel that drives our rapid transit.
Heat and light in our schools and hospitals, its carbon once again.

Unless you live in a log cabin, weave your own clothes, whittle your own utensils and grow your own food you probably contribute to the carbon based economy.
My hats off to those who have dropped off the grid.
However we all know if your reading or posting on this forum your not off the grid and are part of the problem.
So its all very well to be a NIMBY and oppose oil and gas production where you live but where would you like it come from?
Third world countries?
Offshore?
The high arctic?

The stuff is like crack of that there is no dispute.
Even the oil and gas producers admit that we need to start getting off the stuff.
But right now it runs our society.

And sympathizing with someone who tries to blow up a toxic gas pipeline is in my opinion at best confused and at worst despicable.
Just because its out in the country and may only kill or sicken a few people as versus hundreds or thousands in a city makes it OK?
Because they seem to incompetent to complete the job means its understandable?
Or maybe it just kills off the flora and fauna?

However is doing it is a danger to society and should be locked up.


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 04 November 2008 05:51 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Its a tough call but ultimately we live in a carbon driven economy.

quote:
My hats off to those who have dropped off the grid.

quote:
So its all very well to be a NIMBY and oppose oil and gas production where you live but where would you like it come from?

So you really respect people who want to kick our dependency on carbon but on the other hand you don't want to yourself and you don't think society should either obviously; why do you respect those "off grid" people if they are so wrong in their lifestyles? Opposition to fossil fuels doesn't automatically mean NIMBYs trying to pawn off the problem on someone else and keep on with the same lifestyle, some people are actually commited to kicking our society's dependence on carbon. BTW using electricity doesn't have to = fossil fuels and not everyone using the internet is automatically a hypocrite if they don't unquestioningly support our ripping apart the planet in search of more carbon.

No one has been injured by these bombings which seems intentional. The only thing they are endangering is the complacency of the oil companies... those companies themselves are the ones putting people in danger as discussed earlier in this thread.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Prometheus30
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posted 04 November 2008 06:58 AM      Profile for Prometheus30     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by It's Me D:

No one has been injured by these bombings which seems intentional.


No one has been injured, yet.

A few years ago hunting cabins in the area my family has a cabin started burning down.
The government wanted to hush some natives who were making some kinda demand so they offered them some crown land which they can turn into a nature park, run it and get the money from it.
Only problem was that privately leased cabins dotted the land. Some of the leases were for 100+ years. The government couldn't turn the land over to the native tribe until the lease ran out. The government started changing the leases from 100 year to 50 year to 10 year with a view to making them yearly leases. Once that happened they would just refuse to reknew the lease and presto,problem solved.

That wasn't fast enough for some people so like I mentioned, cabins started mysteriously burning down-until one of the cabins that burnt down turned up a dead body inside. Whoever was starting the fires forgot to check inside one of the cabins and a man died as the result.

The most effective type of terrorisim/sabotage is the kind where no one gets hurt. The government can't push fear buttons to outrage citizens stemming from deaths. People go from being scared for their lives to critisizing the government for not being able to stop the attacks.
Problem is, sooner or later someone DOES get hurt which turns the 'harmless' destruction of properity to assault or manslaughter.


From: ottawa | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 04 November 2008 07:13 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If the bombers' intent is not to harm then how are their actions different than those of the companies building this deadly infrastructure in the first place?

Yes something might go wrong and someone might be injured or even killed by accident, the same is true of the pipelines without bombing incidents; they are dangerous and someone could easily be injured or killed by accident. In fact the companies in question are willing to be responsible for a few accidental deaths of workers and local residents (and workers have died).

What differentiates the companies' willingness to put people in harms' way from the "terrorists" willingness to put people in harms' way? Is it the profit motive that makes the difference for you? Maybe that's what really irks... these bombers are putting innocent people at risk and their objective in doing so is not to make a profit, how awful!


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Prometheus30
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posted 04 November 2008 08:42 AM      Profile for Prometheus30     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are you actually comparing accidental deaths at contruction sites/logging sites to someone buying or making high explosives and detonating it?

Because their not intending to hurt anyone?

Problem with the bombers is that if they do not see results sooner or later their going to make bigger bombs and become more bold.
Even failing that one of them might use your perspective and say you know what? It's okay if we kill a few loggers to prove a point because loggers die at work by accident anyways so us setting off explosives is no worse than a tree falling on someone.

Thats a scary outlook dude.


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Buddy Kat
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posted 04 November 2008 08:45 AM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Didn’t they claim to have someone in custody? Is this going to be like the DB cooper thing? I guess there will be an opportunity in the hat market if they don’t catch the bomber(s).

So the oil and gas sector have constructed terror targets throughout this country…under the watchful eyes of industry ministers who when booted out of office end up on oil/ gas or mining industry boards. Canada’s anti terror law says…
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(ii) that intentionally
(A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,
(B) endangers a person's life,
(C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public,
(D) causes substantial property damage, whether to public or private property, if causing such damage is likely to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C), or
(E) causes serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that is not intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C),
and includes a conspiracy, attempt or threat to commit any such act or omission, or being an accessory after the fact or counselling in relation to any such act or omission, but, for greater certainty, does not include an act or omission that is committed during an armed conflict and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, is in accordance with customary international law or conventional international law applicable to the conflict, or the activities undertaken by military forces of a state in the exercise of their official duties, to the extent that those activities are governed by other rules of international law.
``terrorist group''

``terrorist group'' means
(a) an entity that has as one of its purposes or activities facilitating or carrying out any terrorist activity, or
(b) a listed entity,
and includes an association of such entities.
--------------------------------------------------------------


So who are the terrorists? The obviously scared individual(s) who cannot handle the terror and panics…taking the law into his/her own hands, or the company who places and subjects the people to the potential terror , health and safety factor of millions of cubic meters of chemical weapon flammable “ burn the skin off your body gas” and chemical weapon grade poisonous fumes in populated areas. If the fumes don’t kill you…the sulphuric acid rain will burn off your skin.

What about the unscrupulous people that work for them…anything for a buck? Even if it endangers everyone elses life who doesn’t work for the chemical weapon gas company.

Remember the phrase “let the eastern B#%$$#% freeze in the dark” Maybe in the future westerners will be the ones freezing in the dark when there is no gas to heat a home or power generated from gas to electrically heat a home. Or maybe they will have to do what Natives do and use their precious homes as firewood.

Maybe it’s the US military..they are quite aware…..and don't seem to have their head in the sand like in Canada. They have whole agency's devoted to toxic cloud formation.Maybe they are experimenting.

http://www.dtra.mil/newsservices/fact_sheets/display.cfm?fs=hpac

Northern Canada has been a favorite for the US military when it comes to testing new weapons like the cruise missile … maybe this is a warm up? The new partners in the security agreement that Canada and US government sign in secret might have some unpleasant surprises…. Closed to the public because it’s too sinister for the public to know?

I bet they don't mention this crap when the local gas/oil company spends money on community projects and such. Can you imagine al queda funding bar b ques and community projects just to make his dirty work more palatable to the public. Same thing here.

The government of Canada has a very long history of putting industrial interests ahead of the public good and has been witnessed by all the class actions in the last 50 years....from poisoning aquifers and people too industrial pollution all the way to experimenting on orphans. Canada HAS allowed atrocities to occur.
Some real examples:

Some Homegrown Terror Acts (Click save target as) for the sickest act of all -poisoning your child pdf .......
.
---sorry copied from a page, but the release of that document coincided with Canada's toronto terror fiasco, hence burying the report-------

Gagetown -They lied big time and covered up big time- Val Cartier poisonings -So bad web sites -disappear!
Sarnia Hormonal terrorism (femininization?)- The Duplessis Orphans mass grave packed with lobotomized orphans.- makes nazi experiments look like a sunday matinee.

The winnipeg mysterious toxic cloud sprayings-The NDP were actually threatened in the house of commons to "shut up or else" when they brought it up a second time..exposing a second incident (you can read about it in the cia released files tho)...treating Canadians like common lab rats-

The espanola black cloud of death (great way to treat retired seniors?) Treated like bug pests by our own government a class action followed with a muzzle order.. Medical mistakes or sabotage that cost 25,000 Canadian lives each year. These are but a few Terror acts that are a real and present danger , talk about corruption and terror. Drug prescription deaths that are mind boggling (tens of thousands a year)....the more they sell the more rewards they get for poisoning you! Even trips to exotic places!!Tainted blood ring a bell.


They usually follow this
6 step formula....homegrown killing plan our government (mostly liberal regimes) has been perfortrating on it’s people for decades.

step 1 – Poison , contaminate, kill using every excuse imaginable (Usually experimentation or profit )
step 2 – cover-up, lie, deny, disinform
step 3 - Continue step 2 till all or most victims are dead
step 4 – If exposed by relatives or off spring repeat step2
step 5 – delay as long as possible
step 6 – distribute small sums of taxpayers money and apologize (cost effective)As you can see if step 6 was : Garnish politicians lottery sized pension, plus wage (>$150,000 annually ) etc. Seize his or her assets including bank accounts followed by liquidation of all monies and distribute to the families of those murdered along with the tax payers package ..their killing game of terror will end rather quickly.

So now we can add construction of terror targets thru out Canada that place the lives health and safety of the public at risk. Just so politically corrupt individuals and criminally corupt corporations can sell oil and gas for a profit. That is terrorism with groups involved whether organized industrial , political or criminal groups....that's what it is.

Unfortunately there are very few legal avenues to deal with this problem. All one can do is vote...use freedom of speech...sing about it. Or become a victim...that's all. Pretty sick eh!

If and when one becomes a victim you, or your offspring may be eligible for a class action via the 6 step plan. In the meantime one can expect no support from government, police, media or for that matter the brainwashed public.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 04 November 2008 08:51 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by It's Me D:
If the bombers' intent is not to harm then how are their actions different than those of the companies building this deadly infrastructure in the first place?

Yes something might go wrong and someone might be injured or even killed by accident, the same is true of the pipelines without bombing incidents; they are dangerous and someone could easily be injured or killed by accident. In fact the companies in question are willing to be responsible for a few accidental deaths of workers and local residents (and workers have died).

What differentiates the companies' willingness to put people in harms' way from the "terrorists" willingness to put people in harms' way? Is it the profit motive that makes the difference for you? Maybe that's what really irks... these bombers are putting innocent people at risk and their objective in doing so is not to make a profit, how awful!


Sour gas isn't required to be pumped and is way more dangerous than OIL, I'm with you on this one. These people are showing just why this is so bad. They obviously have been very careful not to rupture the lines too badly. If they wanted to do real harm simply double the explosives. (As they have warned) But the Oil company will not be deterred. I also don't understand how when a company does something they know can and does cause harm(like causing cancer and killing people slowly over time) it is somehow not wrong but if I stab you and you live I am in jail for 25 years. The effect is the same. Actually not as bad being stabbed.

TO our oil patch friend. Did you know there are wind turbines, solar panels, and yep satellite uplinks for internet..so Infact I could be off the grid. (ANd yeah I know plastics are made from oil) The difficulty is most of us that don't work for big oil couldn't do it as easily as people in the patch. Meanwhile the wheels are coming off for even them with the falling price of crude.


From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 04 November 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
YOu can throw in General Chemical in Elmira Ontario, we lived there for a short period when I was younger, just after we left they found out GC was dumping AGENT F'n ORANGE left over from the Vietnam War(because as we all know we stay out of that war) into the ground water for 16 years! Put it wasn't there fault. SO who's fault was it?

Yeah we get 'terrorists' and 'corporations' are two different words, but really are they. Then to say "just demand compensation" as a solution is stupid. Would you have your kids killed and shown to you if you could get $50,000 for their deaths? NO and if you did you should go to jail. We are talking about health issues here, not just some random bombings. Why do you think there was such a stink over Toronto garbage, and it was only household garbage, not toxic material.
Keep the people in the dark and keep feeding them shit, ah yes the mushroom theory.


From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 04 November 2008 09:38 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And any arrests made over the working class neighbourhood blown up in Toronto, and dusted with asbestos?


Business as usual.


I don't think there's any need for complex conspiracy theories. The RCMP itself should be the prime suspect, having supplied bombs, and much encouragement, to disgruntled groups or individuals before.

A quick read of all the news reports here fail to mention, or even ask, the type of explosive used.

Might it be explosives stolen from poorly secured supplies used by exploration and construction companies in the area?

Is someone covering up an undercover operation gone out of control? Neglegent storage of explosives?


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 04 November 2008 01:33 PM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
And any arrests made over the working class neighbourhood blown up in Toronto, and dusted with asbestos?


Business as usual.


I don't think there's any need for complex conspiracy theories. The RCMP itself should be the prime suspect, having supplied bombs, and much encouragement, to disgruntled groups or individuals before.

A quick read of all the news reports here fail to mention, or even ask, the type of explosive used.

Might it be explosives stolen from poorly secured supplies used by exploration and construction companies in the area?

Is someone covering up an undercover operation gone out of control? Neglegent storage of explosives?


Good questions tommy. The whole coverage has been spotty at best, negligent would be a better word.
They KNOW what kind of explosives are used. As pointed out in Afghan thread, they know that 'Taliban' have run out of russian munitions and are now using fertilizer. Are we to believe that we have NO IDEA what our domestic terrorists are using. Is it the RCMP themslevs wouldn't be the first time for the to commit terror against citizens. I don't hink that is the case because the news coverage would be everywhere as oppose to being very low key the way it is being reported right now. How can you have 3 bombing and not having colour code harper not screaming about how we are under attack? CODE ORANGE at least.


From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Trexx
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posted 06 November 2008 01:06 PM      Profile for Trexx     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hello again,

Quote.
So you really respect people who want to kick our dependency on carbon but on the other hand you don't want to yourself and you don't think society should either obviously;
Unquote.

How on earth would you have the faintest clue what I want or not want to do?
How would you know what direction I think society should go?
Well Kreskin; your psychic mind reading skills are only seconded by your ability to speak for others.
Take it to the stock market please they need all the help they can get.

Quote.
Opposition to fossil fuels doesn't automatically mean NIMBYs trying to pawn off the problem on someone else and keep on with the same lifestyle, some people are actually committed to kicking our society's dependence on carbon.
Unquote.

Yes and I have recognized that. However if you are a resident of the western industrialized world and you use plastics or power chances are you are an indirect contributor to oil and gas development.
We all need to reduce and reuse as much as we can that is understood.
My original statement stands: If you use petroleum derived products at all, where would you like those feedstocks to come from?
The Arctic?
The Third World?
Far offshore?
The unfortunate reality is that probably the best place to produce the stuff is in the developed Western world under the watchful eye of a well educated, well informed and very concerned citizenry.
Then there is the logic of "if we do most of the consuming shouldn't we bear the responsibility of safely producing the stuff ourselves?

Quote.
BTW using electricity doesn't have to = fossil fuels and not everyone using the Internet is automatically a hypocrite
Unquote.

Unless you provide your own electrical generation system and you are off-grid you are contributing to fossil fuel development.

Ontario for example generates by far the majority of its power from Hydro and Nuclear sources. But it just happens to have a couple of the dirtiest, heavily polluting coal fired generators in Canada which also happen to run on high sulphur coal.The power provided is then commingled with the "clean power" already in the system.
Power is shared, sold and transferred from province and country to country.

You said it was hypocritical, not me.

Quote.
No one has been injured by these bombings which seems intentional. The only thing they are endangering is the complacency of the oil companies
Unquote.
Quote.
These people are showing just why this is so bad. They obviously have been very careful not to rupture the lines too badly. If they wanted to do real harm simply double the explosives
Unquote.

The above are totally uninformed statements.

The people who perpetrating these blasts seem to me to be clueless idiots as far as their blasting skills are concerned.
Criminal clueless idiots who care neither for the lives and well being of the neighbors and there children nor the surrounding environment.

As soon as a valid blasting expert chips in on this thread about the skills demonstrated by these local terrorists then I will defer to their opinion.
I studied blasting theory while taking engineering and held a valid blasting ticket in my youth.
Practical experience in shaped charges, cutting charges, focused charges and the like.
Granted it was long ago.
My opinion: They are very dangerous clueless idiots.
With a bit of luck they are using tagged commercial explosives and thus the police are closing in on them.

Quote.
Sour gas isn't required to be pumped and is way more dangerous than OIL, I'm with you on this one.
Unquote.

How do you know what is more dangerous?
What about sour oil?
What about HTHP oil, wouldn't that be potentially even more dangerous?
What about low pressure sour versus high pressure sweet?
Do you know what the H2S concentrations and toxicities thereof are in the various pipelines?

Sour gas is toxic and dangerous of that there is no doubt.
I suspect however neither you nor the nut job blasters have any idea of potential dangers and risks associated with these pipelines.

Quote.
TO our oil patch friend. Did you know there are wind turbines, solar panels, and yep satellite up-links for Internet..so In Fact I could be off the grid.
Unquote.

Satellite up-links......really.
Yep you COULD be on one, I AM on one.
We both know what the difference is.

The thing is I am in the ENERGY business and as a result I know a little bit about alternative sources.
I know quite a bit about geothermal projects and have worked on them.

Wind generators, bio gas, tidal generators, small stream bypassing generators, solar cells, solar accumulators,etc,etc,its all energy to me.
The quicker we switch to lower impact sources of energy the better.
And the truth is on this forum it is impossible to tell WHO is actually physically contributing the most toward moving our society towards a cleaner, low impact industrialized society and who is just talk.
As I said before I do respect others who try very hard to minimize there personal impact on our environment. I someone who spent several years in remote and undeveloped regions living in somewhat limited living conditions I DO admire the choices some people have made in order to reduce their personal footprint.

It also happens that I spent several months living in a crowded tent on a government project on the polar ice cap.
Got to hang out and drink a lot of beer with a crowd of climate change scientists.
A very dedicated bunch that compete for the chance to live in pretty crappy conditions for long periods of time.
We are very fortunate to have them.

Back to the nut job bombers, they are criminals or they are mentally unstable one of the two.
They are risking the lives of people intentionally.

Some local guy gets a low paying job inspecting that pipeline and its OK to gas him to death?
Leave his wife and kids to fend for themselves?
That's sick.

Big business has done some pretty scummy things in the past but using that to justify risking peoples lives is flawed logic.
If the guy down the street is a serial rapist that makes it OK for someone else to be just a little bit of a rapist?

I hope they rot in tiny cell with a guy named Bubba as a bunky.

Debating people who believe in justifying the actions of criminals who risk their neighbors lives creeps me out.
I really don't know if this forum is the place for me.

Trexx

[ 06 November 2008: Message edited by: Trexx ]


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6194

posted 06 November 2008 08:37 PM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Funny how you managed to cheery pick individual lines without the whole context. I guess if you think
quote:
Back to the nut job bombers, they are criminals or they are mentally unstable one of the two.
They are risking the lives of people intentionally.

Funny how even if the OIL companies do the same thing they aren't in Jail, neither are the chemical industries that intentionally pollute because it's always cheaper to pay the fine and for people to die than it is to do the right thing and clean up to start with. The fact that you are putting money before peoples lives says a lot about your character. Maybe the nut job is someone who only cares about himself because he doesn't have to live in those communities. Hope you sleep well after a hard days' work of 'risking the lives of people intentionally'.

From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Prometheus30
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15633

posted 06 November 2008 11:38 PM      Profile for Prometheus30     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let me understand this fellas.

It's "okay" to use home made explosives and bomb privately owned companies since;
-You don't really intend to hurt anyone
-People get injured working for these companies and you don't feel they feel bad enough over it
-Their product inadvertetly harms the environment which may or may not lead to humans being injured too?


Would it be okay then to bomb cigarette companies? Or bomb gas stations that sell cigarettes since they are facilitating harming human beings far more than a logging company is?

Heck i'd probably be for that, I'd like to see smoking banned all together..


From: ottawa | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6194

posted 07 November 2008 12:18 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus30:
Let me understand this fellas.

It's "okay" to use home made explosives and bomb privately owned companies since;
-You don't really intend to hurt anyone
-People get injured working for these companies and you don't feel they feel bad enough over it
-Their product inadvertetly harms the environment which may or may not lead to humans being injured too?


Would it be okay then to bomb cigarette companies? Or bomb gas stations that sell cigarettes since they are facilitating harming human beings far more than a logging company is?

Heck i'd probably be for that, I'd like to see smoking banned all together..


How many suppositions are you going to make?
A: we don't know what the bombs are made of cuz gee the media ain't saying much.
B: They haven't hurt anyone
C: Their product is more than inadvertant
D: It is already known that is harming people, not may or maynot

You want to try again? Scarecrow called, he said he is out of stuffing.


From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 07 November 2008 01:25 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Trexx:
If you use petroleum derived products at all, where would you like those feedstocks to come from? The Arctic? The Third World?
Far offshore?

Frankly, the best thing would be is to stop/downgrade using petroleum derived products, and use/develop products which aren't. However, that is not in the best interest of oil companies and their shareholders for them to allow such a thing to happen. As such it won't, until their firm grip upon our government is broken.

quote:
The unfortunate reality is that probably the best place to produce the stuff is in the developed Western world under the watchful eye of a well educated, well informed and very concerned citizenry.

Now this comment could read as innocuous enough, until one really looks at what you are saying and meaning. Bottom line is you are saying that the petroleum industry does not give a fuck about best policies and environmental practices and is all too willing to exploit, extort, destroy and kill non-western countries and their peoples, because white global hegemony allows them to.

The actual best thing to do is to stop allowing oil companies free reign anywhere in the world.

Moreover, your comment is actually one of blaming the victims, and disparging them as uneducated, unconcerned, and apparently willfully uninformed. A convenient portrayal that is designed to encourage white people to believe this is the case. However, it is pure bull shit. As is the attempt to stroke egos to manipulate the conceptual framework.

quote:
Then there is the logic of "if we do most of the consuming shouldn't we bear the responsibility of safely producing the stuff ourselves?
Another attempt to displace the blame from the oil companies themselves, who are the culprits, and put it onto the people who in fact are trying to force the oil companies to produce and transport it responsibly.

Do you really think we here do not know the autrocities that the oil companies have done globally? Do really think we do not know how indigenous people the world over have been fighting against oil companies and losing their lives doing so?

Please do stop insulting us and other peoples around the world, with your arrogance and BS propaganda.

quote:
Back to the nut job bombers, they are criminals or they are mentally unstable one of the two.
They are risking the lives of people intentionally.

While I strongly do not agree with the pipeline bombings, no matter who is doing it or why, in actual fact the oil companies themselves are risking the lives of people intentionally, if not outright murdering some who get in their way, so by your values and construct then they are nut jobs and/or criminals too. So why are you working for them? Oh right, that would be personal gain.

quote:
Some local guy gets a low paying job inspecting that pipeline and its OK to gas him to death?
Leave his wife and kids to fend for themselves?
That's sick.

Well, let's extend this constructed analogy further, or inversely. You apparently think it is okay for oil companies to under pay those who inspect their pipelines while making billions in profits each year. You think it is okay for oil companies to murder people and leave their children and spouses to fend for themselves. You think it is okay for oil companies to needlessly pollute and destroy peoples environments and health, with cancer and birth defect causing agents, because they can make more profits by doing so. That is sick.

quote:
Big business has done some pretty scummy things in the past
How cute of you to try and conceptually frame it as "past" occurances. It isn't, and you know it.

quote:
but using that to justify risking peoples lives is flawed logic.
But you using propaganda to try to create false oil company positive frameworks to try to sway people is okay and not flawed? Really, truth be told, you are justifying and glossing over oil companies behaviour, apparently for personal gain, gain which BTW is on the backs of all those that they have killed and will kill in the future, and at the expense of the environment and all the species it contains. But yet you feel you have a right to disparage others? TFF.

quote:
If the guy down the street is a serial rapist that makes it OK for someone else to be just a little bit of a rapist?
This is quite the illogical comment, plus it of course it is a strawman, considering you apparently believe rape is A okay as long as it is not happening in society at large. As follows:

quote:
I hope they rot in tiny cell with a guy named Bubba as a bunky.
Advocating that you support anyone's raping, under any circumstances, is a no go here, and it is pretty ugly and nasty, and indeed makes all your negative comments against others hyprocritical, invalid and worth shit. Not that they weren't already, mind you.

quote:
Debating people who believe in justifying the actions of criminals who risk their neighbors lives creeps me out.

Debating people who could dignify the heinious actions of the oil companies for personal gain and advocate the raping of anyone creeps me out.

quote:
I really don't know if this forum is the place for me.
I don't either.

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6194

posted 07 November 2008 11:31 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good post. I also don't WANT bombing. I am saying I can see where they are coming from. Same as I don't want to have afghans killing our troops, but I can see where they are coming from. It's always interesting to put yourself in someone elses shoes and a walk a kilometer or two.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Buddy Kat
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13234

posted 07 November 2008 02:02 PM      Profile for Buddy Kat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't advocate bombing also..the only people that do and evidence shows they have ...are militants to begin with..military,rcmp,terrorist which I am neither.

The big problem is these terrorists (oil/gas/government)do not listen to reason and the government is a guilty deaf mute in these matters. They by there own lack of action create terror. Which is fine for them. They can't wait for an excuse to purchase the latest killing toy. They also can't wait for laws to be broken so they can scratch there eager itchy trigger fingers also. Drilling holes in the "pipeline bombers head"..so they can parade his/her corpse...They live for this shit.

The mainstream public really doesn't give a damn anyways either.AS LONG as it's not there life that is threatened or intimidated or their family that is suffering or dieing everything is fine and dandy.

So I say ..they made their bed to sleep in...and probably if not in the near future then some time in the distant future the roosters will come home to roost. I won't blame the person who did it, because the writing has been on the wall for such a long time you would have to be brain dead not to see it.

Terror is terror and different people are affected in different ways and also react as individuals. Wait till they intimidate a real militant...by then it will possibly be too late for whining,it's just a matter of time.

In the meantime I hope groups are working on the new US government and informing them of how the oil companies have created an insecure environment and a contaminated one to boot that is so bad...that when you ask people "Hows the environment in the oil sands area " They say "What environment!" and also squeal on how many Canadian natives they have killed in the process how many natives are poisoned with cancer in the oil sands area..how the Albertans just sit and watch while their fellow Albertans rot from rare cancers etc etc.

How they have destroyed and are also in the process of destroying the worlds fresh water supply.A supply THEY may need in the future.

Please copy and send to Obama


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Trexx
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15596

posted 07 November 2008 05:33 PM      Profile for Trexx     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Trexx:
If you use petroleum derived products at all, where would you like those feedstocks to come from? The Arctic? The Third World?
Far offshore?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly, the best thing would be is to stop/downgrade using petroleum derived products, and use/develop products which aren't. However, that is not in the best interest of oil companies and their shareholders for them to allow such a thing to happen. As such it won't, until their firm grip upon our government is broken.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The unfortunate reality is that probably the best place to produce the stuff is in the developed Western world under the watchful eye of a well educated, well informed and very concerned citizenry.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now this comment could read as innocuous enough, until one really looks at what you are saying and meaning. Bottom line is you are saying that the petroleum industry does not give a fuck about best policies and environmental practices and is all too willing to exploit, extort, destroy and kill non-western countries and their peoples, because white global hegemony allows them to.

The actual best thing to do is to stop allowing oil companies free reign anywhere in the world.

Moreover, your comment is actually one of blaming the victims, and disparging them as uneducated, unconcerned, and apparently willfully uninformed. A convenient portrayal that is designed to encourage white people to believe this is the case. However, it is pure bull shit. As is the attempt to stroke egos to manipulate the conceptual framework.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then there is the logic of "if we do most of the consuming shouldn't we bear the responsibility of safely producing the stuff ourselves?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another attempt to displace the blame from the oil companies themselves, who are the culprits, and put it onto the people who in fact are trying to force the oil companies to produce and transport it responsibly.
Do you really think we here do not know the autrocities that the oil companies have done globally? Do really think we do not know how indigenous people the world over have been fighting against oil companies and losing their lives doing so?

Please do stop insulting us and other peoples around the world, with your arrogance and BS propaganda.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the nut job bombers, they are criminals or they are mentally unstable one of the two.
They are risking the lives of people intentionally.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I strongly do not agree with the pipeline bombings, no matter who is doing it or why, in actual fact the oil companies themselves are risking the lives of people intentionally, if not outright murdering some who get in their way, so by your values and construct then they are nut jobs and/or criminals too. So why are you working for them? Oh right, that would be personal gain.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some local guy gets a low paying job inspecting that pipeline and its OK to gas him to death?
Leave his wife and kids to fend for themselves?
That's sick.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, let's extend this constructed analogy further, or inversely. You apparently think it is okay for oil companies to under pay those who inspect their pipelines while making billions in profits each year. You think it is okay for oil companies to murder people and leave their children and spouses to fend for themselves. You think it is okay for oil companies to needlessly pollute and destroy peoples environments and health, with cancer and birth defect causing agents, because they can make more profits by doing so. That is sick.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Big business has done some pretty scummy things in the past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How cute of you to try and conceptually frame it as "past" occurances. It isn't, and you know it.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but using that to justify risking peoples lives is flawed logic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But you using propaganda to try to create false oil company positive frameworks to try to sway people is okay and not flawed? Really, truth be told, you are justifying and glossing over oil companies behaviour, apparently for personal gain, gain which BTW is on the backs of all those that they have killed and will kill in the future, and at the expense of the environment and all the species it contains. But yet you feel you have a right to disparage others? TFF.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the guy down the street is a serial rapist that makes it OK for someone else to be just a little bit of a rapist?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is quite the illogical comment, plus it of course it is a strawman, considering you apparently believe rape is A okay as long as it is not happening in society at large. As follows:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope they rot in tiny cell with a guy named Bubba as a bunky.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Advocating that you support anyone's raping, under any circumstances, is a no go here, and it is pretty ugly and nasty, and indeed makes all your negative comments against others hyprocritical, invalid and worth shit. Not that they weren't already, mind you.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debating people who believe in justifying the actions of criminals who risk their neighbors lives creeps me out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Debating people who could dignify the heinious actions of the oil companies for personal gain and advocate the raping of anyone creeps me out.
Unquote.
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------


Hello again,


Well Remind, what an interesting debating style you have.
It certainly foul-mouthed (or should I say foul keyboarded).
And you seem to be both insulting and abusive in your imaginary interpretations.
It all looks like on one long drive-by smear job to me.
I could go through your post and its criticisms but really, why bother, I refute it all.
You extend, interpret, evaluate, invert and evaluate "conceptually" my every thought and statement.
The flaw with all this is they are my thoughts and statements not yours.
You have not the faintest clue what I think and for you to assume you do is somewhat strange.
I would suggest instead of evaluating and interpreting my every "thought and feeling" perhaps you could try putting forth one or two of your own.
I refute and deny every single characterization and evaluation that you have said about my comments.
I do not and never have condone murder or violence.
I do not and never have condoned rape.
You said it not me.
That was your fevered imagination once again.
Maybe you have a deep-seated hatred concerning people named Bubba, I certainly don't know.
Frankly I don't want to know.


Trying to stick an imaginary target consisting of created flawed or unpleasant characteristics on someone shows, I believe, the inability to critically think and sway others with a well informed argument .
Instead its all just cheap and insulting.

Perhaps I fail to sway others in my arguments but at least I don't resort to being insulting.
Excepting dangerous common criminals.
Those I insult.

I stand by what I said.
I refute what others say " I think " or "I really mean".
What I think and mean as is how I have stated it.

Pipeline bombers are cowards who seek to terrorize their fellow citizens and neighbors.
They belong in jail.

It seems that a one or two people would like to stick a Big-Oil target on me.
That's flawed once again
I am not employed by Big-Oil, nor am I interested in being an apologist for them.
I am indirectly involved in the energy industry in a peripheral technical position.
Splitting hairs I know, but don't ask me to explain or defend the actions of a big oil or gas corporation except in general terms. I have never been directly employed by them and have no idea what that environment is like.

I am however willing to debate the position that you either use hydrocarbon based resources or you don't.
I also believe that it is an unsustainable addiction within our society.
Therefore I believe you either contribute to the problem or you don't.
Its all just a matter of degree.
I think most of us agree that less is better.

Someone else stated that I had called people that posted about environmental issues on this
thread using hydrocarbon derived computers running on carbon based power hypocritical.
I never did say that.
But you have to wonder if it was instead a slightly guilty conscience .

Others seem to feel that all large corporations are evil, capitalist monstrosities that suck the life blood out of society.
Perhaps its true.
I know I don't know.
I have lived in and worked for the Communist government of Cuba for close to four years.
I have also spent a bit of time working for the governments of Russia ,China and Venezuela.
Big oil corporations don't seem to dictate to those governments.
In fact big oil does not exist at all in Cuba.
Companies like Petrobraz and Sherritt are controlled and dictated to.

Made some good pals and drank a lot of beer with some very clever people with radically different views on how a fair and moral society should operate.
My conclusion is that no one system is completely representative or just.
They all have a few warts.
Simplistic I know however nothings perfect nor for that matter perfectly fair.

Trexx

[ 07 November 2008: Message edited by: Trexx ]


From: canada | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 07 November 2008 09:49 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Already indicated debating with someone who holds such thoughts as you apparently do "creeps me out", your words against another here remember? They are all right there for us to see. As does your trying to play a indignant misunderstood role. I understand you perfectly fine.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
admin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15572

posted 07 November 2008 10:35 PM      Profile for admin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Trexx:
quote:Made some good pals and drank a lot of beer with some very clever people with radically different views on how a fair and moral society should operate.

My conclusion is that no one system is completely representative or just.

They all have a few warts.

Simplistic I know however nothings perfect nor for that matter perfectly fair.


I think it might be a progressive move to start another thread under the ideas you have, since you have worked in relation to the energy issues.

So your in Europe to do what?

I understand the emotive connection one can have when it appears an injustice is looming or has been perpetrated. We become reactive to comments, actions, and move to inflammatory sentences and such. It 's alway part of the struggle to be better then that, and try and seek the better information for a more sound view on things.

Rearrange the future, by dealing with the past.

Youth is telling, and those with emotive challenges, like myself not excluded, are always looking for that "thread of truth" at the same time trying to overcome something that is really primitive in all of us.

That requires an intellect above this, but does not say it has ever been overcome. THs wil always be a life long challenge, So we speculate.

Negative emotions and such, do intercede on that reactionary level. A better awareness perhaps, and that's just part of "the work" all of us have to endure.

Best,


From: the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Prometheus30
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15633

posted 08 November 2008 12:46 AM      Profile for Prometheus30     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Clever scarecrow joke. You should pat yourself on the back and feel all awesome after that one. Really, funny on so many levels. You really got me.

quote:
Originally posted by thorin_bane:
Good post. I also don't WANT bombing. I am saying I can see where they are coming from. Same as I don't want to have afghans killing our troops, but I can see where they are coming from. It's always interesting to put yourself in someone elses shoes and a walk a kilometer or two.

I guess now you're the one doing the supposing, considering more than 50% (I'll dig up the actual numbers if you'd like) of the insurgents/terrorists/"freedom fighters" are foreign to Afghanistan. From Iran, Pakastan and friends.

Anywho, you're concerned wether the explosives is home made, store bought or from the military/construction contractiors? Does that really matter to the discussion at hand Thorin?

"I don't agree with them but I can see where their coming from..." That sounds like fence sitting don't you think?
Example, I don't agree with racisim....but I can see where their coming from.
Slippery slope dude. Heck you could probably justify some pretty nasty things with that train of thought.

Also how are oil companies actively going out and harming people?
Like some kind of guys in black suits going to peoples houses and roughing them up or something like that?
Honestly I don't know-what's the oil companies doing?

[ 08 November 2008: Message edited by: Prometheus30 ]


From: ottawa | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged

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