quote:

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I am a Canadian, a free Canadian,

Free to speak without fear,

Free to worship God in my own way,

Free to stand for what I think right,

Free to oppose what I believe wrong,

Free to choose those who shall govern my country.

This heritage of freedom, I pledge to uphold,

For myself and all mankind.

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quote:

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Does Canada need an offical pledge?

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If only I were "free" to pledge my loyalty to Canada without assuming a a priori existence of the Xtian deity. Perhaps they could be a little more subtle next time.

Who exactly do you have in mind as reciting this pledge? Schoolchildren, as with the American Pledge of Allegiance?

And what exactly would mass recital of such a pledge accomplish?

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

quote:

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Originally posted by voice of the damned:
No Yards:

Who exactly do you have in mind as reciting this pledge? Schoolchildren, as with the American Pledge of Allegiance?

And what exactly would mass recital of such a pledge accomplish?

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

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Actually I don't have anything in mind. I heard some people talking about it on talk radio today, and figured it would be interesting to get babble feedback. I expected most to be against pledges (and especially one with a reference to God,) but I didn't want to "poison the water" by starting off the topic totally negative towards a pledge.

quote:

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I don't have to repeat that after you, Mr M.

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To give our youth their National identity, we would like to have Our Pledge returned to opening exercises in classrooms across our nation. We need to remind Canadians of the great freedoms our veterans won for us.

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So we're going to show our distinct national identity by becoming just like the USA, where children are forced to recite religious, jingoistic words in the classroom.

quote:

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where children are forced to recite religious, jingoistic words in the classroom.

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To be fair, I was also forced to recite religious and jingoistic words in the classroom

quote:

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And the freedoms our veterans won for us presumably do not include freedom of conscience, freedom from religion, and freedom of speech.

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quote:
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To give our youth their National identity, we would like to have Our Pledge returned to opening exercises in classrooms across our nation. We need to remind Canadians of the great freedoms our veterans won for us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we're going to show our distinct national identity by becoming just like the USA, where children are forced to recite religious, jingoistic words in the classroom.

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Interesting thing about the American pledge is that it was written in the 19th Century by a socialist named Francis Bellamy(his cousin wrote the utopian novel Looking Backward), who imagined schoolchildren pledging allegiance to a flag that stood for socialism, equality, etc. Of course, as we all know the Pledge was quickly co-opted by the patriotic Right as a Cold War loyalty oath. They also added the part about "one nation under God".

I think that bit of history goes to show that pledges are pretty much hollow shells, which once implemented can be harnessed to suit anyone's ideological ends.

Edited to correct the name of the utopian book.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

It was from my dad, a WWII veteran (my mum was also) who had lost his elder brother to WWI, that I first learned: free Canadians do not take pledges of allegiance. That we do not is a sign of our freedom.

Just recently I "solemnly affirmed" to .. I forget just what. Protect the Queen, her heirs and such. And I'll have to do the same when I'm called to the bar.

Edited to add: Just found it...

OATH OF CITIZENSHIP

I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful
and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty
Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada,
Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada
and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.

That was pretty much what I had to affirm as well.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: RP. ]

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Let us all remember Wolfe the donkless hero.

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Forgive me. I'm stealing that from an amusing essay that ran in the G&M a few years ago, a child's mishearing of the original words.

quote:

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And Mr M, it is outrageous of you to suggest that a citizen of a democracy could not obtain a passport unless she was willing to take some robot oath.

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My real name is Joe King. Get it?

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]

My grade five teacher "made us" (I can't remember how it happened but many of us did - I think she just did it and we aped her) swear allegiance to the flag.

After singing O Canada in the morning, we'd end off with "à mon drapeau, je jure fidelité" (imediately after "et nos droits"), capped off with a salute.

Urgh.

Edited to add the "in school".

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: David-Marc ]

But he recognized sloppy sentimentalist manipulation when he saw it, and he was so offended by the notion that ordinary citizens should take pre-formulated oaths, as robots.

Now, civil servants, like elected public servants and like the military or the police: that is different, and he accepted that. But why?

To our elected or appointed officials, as to our police or our soldiers, we give special powers, so we desperately need them to swear their loyalty to us, "we" being symbolized by the Crown, the symbol of all the people all the time.

Edited to add:

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Is the "Maple Leaf Forever" some quasi-Masonic bonding ritual that old-order anglophones secretly share?

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1. In Days of yore, from Britain's shore,
Wolfe, the dauntless hero came,
And planted firm Britannia's flag,
On Canada's fair domain.
Here may it wave, our boast, our pride,
And joined in love together,
The thistle, shamrock, rose entwine,
The Maple Leaf forever!

Chorus:
The Maple Leaf, our emblem dear,
The Maple Leaf forever!
God save our King, and Heaven bless,
The Maple Leaf forever!

2. At Queenston Heights and Lundy's Lane,
Our brave fathers, side by side,
For freedom, homes, and loved ones dear,
Firmly stood and nobly died;
And those dear rights which they maintained,
We swear to yield them never!
Our watchword evermore shall be,
The Maple Leaf forever!
Chorus:

3. Our fair Dominion now extends
From Cape Race to Nootka Sound;
May peace forever be our lot,
And plenteous store abound:
And may those ties of love be ours
Which discord cannot sever,
And flourish green o'er freedom's home
The Maple Leaf forever!
Chorus:

WTF? Câlisse goddamn?

I know why I didn't hear that song much when I was growing up. Mostly, because no one could agree when Wolfe planted the flag on Canada's fair domain; before the 20 minute battle, or after, as a zombie.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

I took an oath to the Queen and Crown when I join the military in 1994.

I am somewhat a "Monarchist" and consider myself a member of the "United Empire Loyalist".

I think an oath would be nice however I realize the old ways are almost gone. An oath is only good with the people believe in that sort of way, and most people do not care for the old traditions like our grandparents did.

I think I was born about 100 years too late.

Another thing that I have seen disappear over the last few years in Ontario was how they named the highways. I remember the highways being called “King’s highway #10” or “The Queens highway #6”

MLF is hyper-anglocentric, while the original O Canada is hyper-francocentric and mostly catholic-centric.

Here are the four verses of "O Canada, Terre de nos Aieux"

Ô Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix!
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempée,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits,
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.

Sous l'oeil de Dieu, près du fleuve géant,
Le Canadien grandit en espérant.
Il est né d'une race fière,
Béni fut son berceau.
Le ciel a marqué sa carrière
Dans ce monde nouveau.
Toujours guidé par sa lumière,
Il gardera l'honneur de son drapeau,
Il gardera l'honneur de son drapeau.

De son patron, précurseur du vrai Dieu,
Il porte au front l'auréole de feu.
Ennemi de la tyrannie
Mais plein de loyauté,
Il veut garder dans l'harmonie,
Sa fière liberté;
Et par l'effort de son génie,
Sur notre sol asseoir la vérité,
Sur notre sol asseoir la vérité.

Amour sacré du trône et de l'autel,
Remplis nos coeurs de ton souffle immortel!
Parmi les races étrangères,
Notre guide est la loi:
Sachons être un peuple de frères,
Sous le joug de la foi.
Et répétons, comme nos pères,
Le cri vainqueur: «Pour le Christ et le roi!»
Le cri vainqueur: «Pour le Christ et le roi!»

Note: In public schools, only the first verse is sung, in Catholic schools, the first two are sung.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: David-Marc ]

The 41st Regiment of Foot is a British Unit that fought at both those battles in the War of 1812.

"I promise on my honour to do my best to do my duty to God, the Queen and my country; to help other people at all times; and to obey the Guide law."

I rememebr the oath was something that my honour was about, if I broke my oath my honour would be tranished.

I just remember growing up, that I would never call an adult by his/her first name. It was always Mr. Smith or Miss Brown.

When I first got married my grandmother sent me a letter to my wife while I was in Afhghanistan and it was addressed as Mr. Amy Webgear.

quote:

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
Young puppy! It got sung from time to time, but God Save the Queen and O Canada more.

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Do you think an oath would make people would make people more respectful or more polite?

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This song should still be sung, particularly in Quebec, as a reminder if nothing else.

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Of what, big D? That two European powers, in their quest for world domination, had a 20-minute skirmish on a farm 200 years ago?

...or did you mean something else?

By the way, your claim as an NDP'er is fraudulent. Frau. Du. Lent.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

"It would just convey the "semblance" of discipline and politeness, not real politeness."

I think that would be a good start. How could we start real politeness in todays youth? I think it is something that they have to learn as a young child.

quote:

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I think that would be a good start. How could we start real politeness in todays youth? I think it is something that they have to learn as a young child.

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Well, you're not paying attention. In some respects, young people today are way more polite than what I remember as a child/youth. I particularly remember how brutal customer service was; snarly, indifferent, inflexible. Now, I go about my day all the time, getting service from young people, noticing how much better that is since I was younger.

If you're worried about the disrespect you're getting from younger people, start with a few simple questions: have you bitched at any young person, instead of talking to him/her? Have you accused any young person of something he/she hasn't done? Do you expect respect simply because you're older?

Young people will learn things from the older people who bother to teach them.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

The other day I was biking home from work and there was a bunch of high school kids making fun of some old guy walking down the street in old fashion clothes that old people tend to wear.

I would never have done that as a kid.

It is just an example I see more off in todays youth.

I agree that does not include all of todays youth.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

No... I stopped my bike and turned around. I talked to the kids, gave them my point of view and exampled what they were doing was wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hinterland:

By the way, your claim as an NDP'er is fraudulent. Frau. Du. Lent.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
By the way, your claim as an NDP'er is fraudulent. Frau. Du. Lent.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hinterland:

By the way, your claim as an NDP'er is fraudulent. Frau. Du. Lent.

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Originally posted by Alexander:
trying to turn us into a filthy american ?

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Maple Leaf Forever is equivalent with O Canada

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Canadian Officer to Spike Milligan(who was playing in Jazz band during WW.II):
Can you play the Maple leaf forever?

Spike Milligan: No, I have to rest after about an hour.

quote:

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Originally posted by Carter:
3. Our fair Dominion now extends
From Cape Race to Nootka Sound;
May peace forever be our lot,
And plenteous store abound:
And may those ties of love be ours
Which discord cannot sever,
And flourish green o'er freedom's home
The Maple Leaf forever!

---

The song was originally written in 1867.

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: M. Spector ]

Here's to you, and here's to me
Best of friends we'll always be
And if by chance we disagree
For cue
Here's to me

[edited because I know the words better while half-cut than I do during business hours]

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

quote:

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Here's to you, and here's to me
Best of friends we'll always be
And if by chance we disagree
For cue
Here's to me

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Or:

We've upped our standards.
Now, up yours.

[or, as skdadl would say it]

This is how Thorfinn said it:

Here's tae us!
Wha's like us?
Damn fewwww
And they're a' deid!

Two potatoes among four of us
Thank God there's no more of us
No cake,
For Christs's sake!

Amen.

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Originally posted by skdadl:
Nobody puts words in skdadl's mouth, not never. I don't have to repeat that after you, Mr M. I've repeated it on this board often enough voluntarily.

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But I like Eric Bogle's song:

quote:

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Roy Rogers, Roy Rogers, Oh you were my hero,
A man made of steel on a horse made of gold
Together we rode through the days of my childhood
Memories like heroes, they never grow old.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
I remember the tune and some of the words, but don't recall what came after.

But I like Eric Bogle's song:

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Contrarian:

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As noted above, we have an offical pledge, we need an official pledge...

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Why? If people take a pledge willingly, it's unnecessary; if unwillingly, it's oppressive; or at least, no-one should reasonably expect sincerity on the part of an unwilling pledge-taker.

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Cynical-post-modern jerks.

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Not to speak for others, but: to me, that's offensive. How dare you suggest I'm "post-modern."

A cynical jerk, I may well be. But I dislike pledges for far better reasons than that.

quote:

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...the original O Canada is hyper-francocentric and mostly catholic-centric.

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And, specifically, ultramontane, if I remember right.

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: 'lance ]

quote:

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Originally posted by skdadl:
May the Lord take a likin' to ya.

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May the good Lord take a likin' to ya.

But the way to deal with this politically is to insist that the first line of the Pledge refer to marriage:

I pledge allegiance to:

"Canada, where marriage is open to gay and straight;

If you don't want a church wedding, use the state"

having to say this:

I pledge allegiange to the (piece of coloured cloth on the wall)
of the United . . . you know
And to the (republic, if you can keep it)
for which it (supposedly) stands (in loco parentis)
One nation (or ein Reich, if you will)
Under (the deity with the biggest fan club)
Indivisible (except in every other way)
With liberty and justice for (those with connections)

Imagine saying it before EVERY FREAKIN PUBLIC EVENT - every public meeting no matter how insignificant, every morning before school, every parade, etc. etc.

STAND and recite the pledge and look like you MEAN it, especially post 9-11. As a journalist, I had to do the jack in the box, jack out of the box routine before just about every meeting I covered.

What I used to get a kick out of, but you don't hear it as much anymore, were the people who would add "born and unborn" at the end of the pledge. I remember some council meetings I would here people do that.

I hate loyalty oaths and pledges of any kind.

I tell people my first allegiance is to the truth.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Do you think an oath would make people would make people more respectful or more polite?

I rememebr the oath was something that my honour was about, if I broke my oath my honour would be tranished.

I just remember growing up, that I would never call an adult by his/her first name. It was always Mr. Smith or Miss Brown.

When I first got married my grandmother sent me a letter to my wife while I was in Afhghanistan and it was addressed as Mr. Amy Webgear.

Now that is very old fashion.

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Originally posted by Webgear:
When I first got married my grandmother sent me a letter to my wife while I was in Afhghanistan and it was addressed as Mr. Amy Webgear.

Now that is very old fashion.

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No, just very wrong. The traditional form of address for a woman named Amy married to John Webgear would be "Mrs. John Webgear."

"Mr. Amy Webgear" was never considered a proper form of address, except of course for a man named Amy Webgear.

quote:

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Originally posted by M. Spector:
I seem to recall it as:

May the good Lord take a likin' to ya.

(Presumably to distinguish him from all the evil lords out there.)

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Anyone notice the US national anthem is the longest unanswered question in the English language?

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May the good Lord take a likin' to ya.

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