We have a choice whether to marry or not; whether to have relations with men at all - and if so, which men. We have education, the freedom and ability to make our own living. Our parents don't choose our husbands. The law even lets us decide whether to stay pregnant when we've made a mistake.

So, why do so many women - even intelligent, competent ones - end up in rotten marriages and abusive relationships? Why do so many girls and women choose bastards and jerks?

My guess is that women sometimes choose what they want rather than what they need. For instance one may look for a man who has a great body. But they don't consider that that great body comes from 5 hours of running, 12 hours working out in the gym. and Weekends spent biking and hiking or some other form of physical activity. So feelings of being lonely and neglected set in and eventually blows up because the guy with the nice body likes looking and feeling that way, while the wife isn't to interested in getting up at 6am to run each day.

But it's a two way street. After years of being together you either learn give and take and most importantly trust, or you fall apart. You have to accept each other for who you are.

Not to drag things off topic here, but my wife and I haven't been apart for more than three days at a time for the last 19 years. Her folks in Victoria are getting on in years and we felt she and my daughter had best take some time and go for a visit.

They will be gone for two weeks and I figured I would work and hold down the fort, maybe take the dog and go rent a cabin up near Algonquin for three days. Forget it. I am miserable. I can't work. Don't want to do anything. Even had some buddies come over to watch the game lastnight and drink a few beers. Usually that's a great time but I just wasn't interested.

My wife walked along Dallas road today with my daughter and did some beachcombing, something we would do atleast once a week when we lived out there. She is hating it too. All her family got together, big family, lots of fun, but she is home sick and is missing me too much to really enjoy herself.

Sometimes being happily married really fucking hurts.

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why do so many women - even intelligent, competent ones - end up in rotten marriages and abusive relationships? Why do so many girls and women choose bastards and jerks?

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I think the question should really be why are there so many abusive jerks out there.

The most insidious thing about abuse is that it is the victim who usually gets blamed. A woman in this situation doesn't feel she has a choice. The fact is these "men" will do anything to keep their partners with them, not the least of which is threatening to kill themselves or their partner.

"Girls" definitely seem to be drawn to physical features just as much as boys are. The cutie-patootie or the fella with the magnetic cool personality gets all the attention all the way through most of the early twenties.

At some point, some girls become women and looks somehow drop a whole bunch in priority and they can become prey to the not-so-handsome "talker".

This guy could actually have something interesting to say, or he may just know the "right" things to say. The experienced, fool-me-once-shame-on-you woman learns to tell the difference.

Some other poor women, for some deep-seated reasons probably having to do with an unbalanced childhood (?), project what they want/idealize on to some schmoe who might only vaguely fit the bill at first look.

I think the real mystery might be why they STAY in such relationships.

my oversimplified 2 cents...

Of course jerks and bastards don't see themselves that way - in fact, abusive men often see themselves as the victim. (And they're right, in some way. But i don't want to discuss it now, because it's a separate large topic, raising boys properly.)

I know about recreating the dynamics of the family one grew up in. I've seen it work both ways, though: similar and opposite.

But i have also known girls from stable, loving families who put up with all kinds of shit from boyfriends; who, in fact, were attracted to one bad boy after another.

I suspect WingNut's analysis often applies. So much beyond those primary relationships feeds in to shaping our desires, though.

I also doubt that most women feel quite as free, feel they have quite as much choice as people are assuming here.

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We already know why a lot of women stay in abusive relationships: it's difficult to leave, and they're afraid.
My question was how they got into the situation in the first place

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Well, alrighty, if you prefer, the question is Why is it so difficult to leave? What are they afraid of? Loneliness? Being tracked down and smacked back into submission?

This starts to get a little chicken-eggish, but I put it to you that unless you're suggesting that some women are unconsciously seeking these types (not unreasonable), I still place more emphasis on why they ignore escape routes once it's clear as day the relationship isn't quite what they were "looking for". Hmmmm. I'm getting into knots.

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But i have also known girls from stable, loving families who put up with all kinds of shit from boyfriends; who, in fact, were attracted to one bad boy after another.

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By "unbalanced" I didn't necessarily mean, mean, abusive or unstable families either. Seemingly loving families (and, really, who knows what goes on behind closed doors) can still be unintentionally inattentive at some important times in a person's development.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?M21E24B8

They don't start out as jerks. They are usually charming right down to the shoes, and are very passionate. They start out slowly, isolating them from friends, making snotty comments about things she is usually confident about, apologising profusely after fights, etc.

Take M. M went to Mexico, for a week, with her two very best friends as a sort final big bash as a single girl. Her betrothed, A, spent the first night calling every hotel in the area she was staying until he tracked her down. He accused her and her two girlfriends of being sluts and trying to pickup men. He called day and night and ruined the vacation.

There was no doubr he was emotionally immature. There was no doubt he was extremely insecure. There was no doubt he was in desparate need of professional help. No doubt to any observer, that is. M married him on schedule. Today she is grossly overweight, has two kids she can't control, is the breadwinner, and supports his gambling.

What happened during the Mexico trip was the most startling sign. There were many, many others. From calling her an "alcoholic" for having a night out, to insisting that while she was to give up many pre-marriage activities he was sacrificing visiting stripper bars.

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Has anyone here been involved with one, and if so, what drew you to him? Were there no warning signs? Did you not guess? That kind of thing.

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If there were warning signs in my relationship, I missed them (or probably only saw what I wanted to see). We were extraordinarily close and loving until he developed an addiction that made him paranoid, controlling and violent (or brought to the surface those existing tendencies). It took me about a year to get away. One of us was going to end up dead, and I was damned certain it wasn't going to be me.

I'm dealing with this situation right now with a family member. Her finace is working out of town, and if she spends the night at a girlfriends house, he calls her and calls her a "homewrecker" among other things. Mindyou, this family member is not one of those "bright" women, but this book that I'm reading to try to gain some insight into her situation really sheds light on the subject.

Some women just ignore or don't see the warning signs. That ingrained habit of "being nice" and not making waves that occurs in some women, especially women who from a young age, see their mothers being abused by their fathers, such as Rebecca.

I can say with certainty that the men I have been involved with have been very intelligent and charming. This is what draws you in. There is also often a slightly helpless quality that makes you feel not only wanted, but needed. But there's a self-absorbed quality as well, that helps convince you that, gosh, maybe he really is that important.

My first hubby met me when I was 18. He was 5 yrs older than I. And at first, it was a very close, passionate relationship, but as I got older (and let's face it, most of us are not really "grown up" at 18) and more mature (also less passive), as I intellectually passed him, he started to try to fence me in, make me behave the way he thought I should... He even commented to a close friend that he wished I was 19 again. I was depressed and down to 97 lbs (I'm 5'6" tall), and I left because I knew I'd lose my mind if I stayed.

As it was, I had him circling my new apartment every night, looking for men. He was a handgun collector, too, so it was a worrisome situation. But in the end, he gave up and married a nice, passive girl who put him through law school...

A later relationship was with a severe alcoholic. He was charming beyond belief, and highly intelligent. He started taking off and cheating on me after only 2 months. Why did I stay? I could blame family patterns, there is a pattern of alcohol abuse and codependency in my family. Both my parents are codependents, and my sister is an addict, as was my grandfather. So one could say that I learned the pattern early. But this was after doing the Alanon thing, after recognizing that I was a codependent... No excuses, I chose poorly, even though I am a smart, good-looking woman who has never lacked for male attention.

See, they make you feel necessary, and that's a powerful feeling. It's addictive. Even wome who are afraid to leave still, somewhere in there, feel that without them, the man would somehow perish. And the other thing I've discovered is that alcoholics don't leave. Even when they seem to be leaving, it is not permanent, because you are a crutch -- a support for the day to day, and a convenient excuse (driving him to drink). They always come back.

Smartest thing I ever did was to allow the drunk to dump me, and then just not let him come back... And gawd knows, he tried. Other smartest thing was to go get my head candled, because it wasn't the guy who was the problem in my life, it was me. You have to take responsibility for your life.

As long as we treat women in abused relationships like blameless victims, we perpetuate the cycle. They are as sick as the guys who hit, and they need treatment.

I've been through just about every kind of abusive relationship there is. I've been beaten down by both words and hands. Now I consider myself fairly bright, yet I stayed in these relationships until, thankfully, I either got my crap together, or a good frined hauled me out by my hair (not literally).

Why did I stay? Fear. I had a friend tell me once that even if he had the mindset to do so, he couldn't physically rape a woman - he wasn't strong enough. That's absolute crap. Fear is an amazing facilitator of being unable to defend yourself. So What was I afraid of? It depended from day to day. Sometimes I was afraid I'd be left all alone (funny, that's where I am now!) and other days it was I believed his crap that I didn't deserve any better than him (I know much better now). I feared being stalked, I feared being killed, I feared for my friend's lives if I took refuge in thier homes. Fear plays a very big part in abusive relationships. The fear of being unable to cope on your own as a single woman - huge factor. I didn't think I could live by myself, pay my own way and live a happy life. Boy was I wrong - but it took me years to learn that.

With me, K was definitely seeking something she wasn't getting at home. She was quite up-front about this (not to mention being very young when we got together) -- she was from a well-off background, and said that her parents' way of showing her affection, particularly her father's, was to buy her things. This wasn't good enough, to put it mildly. Well, I had no way of buying her anything beyond the occasional dinner out, so my affection was of the more direct kind, which suited both of us for several years.

In me, too, she perhaps thought she saw a certain... I don't know, worldliness, or raffishness, that was missing in her affluent suburb and her hitherto very sheltered life -- to the point of referring to me as "streetwise," the very opposite of the truth.

But in London, she found a still more exciting way of life, and more exciting people, compared to whom I was (and am), quite objectively, boring. This was a still further departure from the home life she'd hated. I suppose the excitement, the glamour and the whiff of danger from the bad boy she took up with blinded her to what turned out to be a very real danger. And she was (I assume still is) a committed feminist with an independent mind.

So why she was attracted to him is, to me, less mysterious than why she put up with his treatment for even a relatively short time. I can only guess that he gave her something she needed then, and she temporarily thought the rest an unavoidable price -- even assuming she could perceive it clearly at the time.

[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: 'lance ]

She married him because she was in love. He showed no signs of abusiveness until two days after the wedding when he slammed her head against the wall. This is a common pattern of physical abuse, according to the women at the shelter where she stayed the night.

She stayed with him because he was a cunning sociopath who isolated her from her friends and family. He discovered every single weakness she had and exploited them with cruelty until she finally believed she was as worthless as he told her.

As with any abuser, he showered her with love, extravagant gifts and promises when he wasn't hitting her, and always said things would be different. She began to see him as two people, and she stayed for the "good" one.

He was very sick with alcoholism, but he was never drunk when he hit her.

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The pattern is always the same on the part of the man, and that is what should be addressed here. It is not the women who have the problem.

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If the pattern involves two people, the chances are they both have a hand in it.

Honestly, "staying for the good one" is classic codependent talk! How can you be "in love" with somebody who abuses you? Chances are, there is a dynamic that gives both parties a form of payoff -- don't get me wrong, it's a sick, twisted payoff. And it isn't worth it in any real sense.

When you take the view that only the one half of the equation is to blame, you also feed the codependent's disease instead of helping her overcome it. The whole "poor, innocent you", the "what you didn't put up with, you must be a saint", the "you're just too good for somebody like that" is exactly why a codependent does what she (and often he) does.

And how is it any different if a man finds excuses as to why a woman should drop certain friends or if a radio station finds excuses not to play "Imagine" or "Civil War" right after 9-11? In both cases there is the idea of legitimate and illegitimate reactions to occurances (note that the focus is on the woman's reaction and not his original action?) What is the difference between what is not said in patriotic correctness and what is not heard when you stop talking to friends who are "trying to sabotage your marriage?"

The American people collectively are the abused woman - and the abuser isn't the Taliban. But why is it that this american woman is focusing her anger at the Taliban rather than at government policies?

Skadie sent me a note letting me know that she was using "my story" (I'm her sister), and I had to check it out.

What has really shocked me is how many people discussing feminism figure that they know what is right for their friends, sisters, family members, exes, or who-ever... So many of you have spoken about "seemingly intellegent" (or not so bright) people you know and wonder what they're doing with this obviously rotten jerk.

Well well well...

I was in one abusive relationship. It wasn't because I grew up in a outright abusive home, a stifling home, a codependent home, or any other kind of psycho-babble home you can think up.

I firmly believe, and will match wits with anyone who disagrees, that the reason I was in an abusive relationship is simply because there was an abusive man out there. If any of you out there think you're immune to abusive relationships, you're sadly mistaken.

Why did I get into it?

Why does anyone get into a relationship? You meet someone you like. You have a great deal in common. He seems special and wonderful and *sigh*, all of a sudden, you're in love. Same as anyone who falls in love.

Are there any warning signs?

No. Not really. There does appear to be a pattern in abusive relationships of "rapid onset". In other words, you meet someone and the relationship progresses fairly quickly.

(Now, that's a statistical thing, and I can't say that I've ever seen it compared to non-abusive relationships. Although it appears that abusive relationships usually develop quickly, that doesn't mean that moving fast is necessarily a warning sign of abuse. Plenty of whirl wind romances end healthily and happily)

Early on in the relationship there tends to be a bit of possessiveness. Nothing outrageous - just enough to be kind of flattering. Maybe some quietly spoken indignation at the pub that the man over there is looking at you. It accellerates from there.

Overall, though, an abusive relationship develops in the same way any relationship develops. There really aren't any hard and fast warning signs.

Why do you stay?

Well.

You stay at first because it really isn't that bad. Hardly noticable at all. It's the tiniest bit of jeolously. Then the quick remark about the pants you've chosen to wear. When you call them on it, they are immediately SOOO sorry and contrite and they didn't mean it at all. Laugh it off.

It gets worse over time, but so insidiously most people won't even notice it happening.

THEN! They have you. You're married, or you've invested a great deal in a wedding, or you're living together and have no where else to go, or you're pregnant. As soon as you're choices are limited - for whatever reason - they blow.

For me, it was two days after I got married. Everything had been pretty much perfect up until then. On that day, hubby was rude to a wedding guest who came by to show us pictures, and when I called him on it he pushed me around. I recognized abuse immediately. I said he needed help. He agreed. He was SORRY SORRY SORRY. I had just committed to a life time with this person. It was not something I was going to give up on after two days.

So, at first you stay because you believe that things will change. Of course you do. To a normal healthy individual, things can ONLY change. There simply isn't any alternative. ANYONE who behaves that way has to do something about it. It makes sense.

Later, after you finally realize that things are NOT going to change, you stay because you don't want to die. Very simple. I stay, I live. I leave, I die. (Sadly, this is borne out every day by real life). Easy choice. That makes sense, too.

I could go on and on. IF you've read this far, you must really want to know why people stay.

In the end, they stay because it's the BEST CHOICE FOR THEM AT THE MOMENT. Although many helpful and well meaning pals and family members think she's crazy and she's doing something unhealthy, it must be accepted that people in abusive relationships know what they're doing. They know what is best for them. Nobody else does.

Abusive people capitalize and parasitize the good and healthy and happy parts of us all. The ability to love and to be loved. The inability to understand violence. The loyalty. The commitment. The desire to help.

I stayed in the relationship until I got to the point that I would rather be dead than stay. After that, it was a choice between killing myself or leaving and having him kill me. By leaving I was choosing to die. A hard choice to make. I beat the odds and I lived after all. At least so far.

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Adam ]

We've had some light. Thanks particularly to Zoot Capri and Rosebud. I asked for personal stories, and you were generous. I'll tell you why this subject is close to my heart. My father wasn't very good either marriage or fatherhood. He didn't set out to be a villain; didn't consider himself abusive. Just, whenever he felt threatened or inadaquate, he found someone to blame. And he usually found someone close at hand, and smaller than him, to punish. True to type, he was charming to everyone else, and sometimes to us. True to type, he became an alcoholic. (The liquor doesn't make them act badly; it frees them to act out what they feel.)

So, my brother grew up with an aversion to alcohol and a determination never to hit a girl (or child, or dog). And i grew up, watching for the signs and determined to draw a very firm line, very early in a relationship. I was never attracted to bad boys and never even came close to getting involved with an abusive man.

BUT, i still can't pick one out in a crowd. Or even spot one in a social situation. The early signs manifest in private.

The real reason i brought this up is that women need to learn how look out for themselves. Yes, we need to fix society. That takes time, if it's possible at all, and during that time, a whole lot of suffering happens. Absolutely, we must shelter fugitives from abusive relationships. But it's better not to let anyone you love get into one in the first place.

If that is/was the case, isn't there the matter of control? That is to say, in choosing to end your life, you want to take some control over how it's done.

Isn't there some period of intense anxiety because tho you've in once sense chosen death, the when/when/how of it was completely out of your control?

Did that time ever exist for you, or are you over that now?

Is there a restraining order out on this guy?

After ending a horrible relationship, a lot of my friends sort of "came out" and told me how horrible I'd been treated, but how they'd been almost afraid to say anything, though many had been saying so all along (and I mostly ignored them; "it's not like that all the time", "you don't know her."). They'd ask why I put up with it. Why did I? Partly because I trust the people I love to the point where it wouldn't even occur to me to prepare to be fucked around and, even when I knew, maybe, just maybe, things would get better soon. And partly because I was eased into hell. There was no sharp contrast, really, nothing to put things to scale. That's why ending it was such a slap in the face. Contrast!

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For me, it was two days after I got married.

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Want it to disappear? I'm a magician part-time, y'know. Just say the words.

(edit: And 6-hour evening shifts at a tele-marketing job, missing QAF, missing the Trail of Dead show, ASA w/ codeine for a possibly fractured wrist, and only having time for one veggie burger and an orange all day.)

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Adam ]

He may like the idea of marriage - especially if he's the jealous type: he thinks it will allay his fear of abandonment. Of course it doesn't, which must be the wife's fault.

They're BOTH immature and and abusive to eachother. He's spat in her face, grabbed, pushed, and shook her. She's broken his nose and screamed about how useless he is.

She's a few weeks away from moving to a remote community to live with him, get married and have kids, because "he thinks that starting our OWN family will wipe away all of the bad memories of his."

We've all talked to her. She'll make her own decisions, but it's very very hard on the family watching.

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If we can figure out why and how it begins, maybe we can teach our daughters to avoid it.

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You will never be able to recognize an abusive person in a crowd. You will never be able to teach your daughters how to avoid them.

But you can do something to change things. The most powerful help I got wasn't from a transition house or a counsellor or a book. It was from my friends and family.

They learned how to BELIEVE in me. They learned how to trust my choices and decisions, and gave me the credit for knowing what was right for me.

When you're in an abusive relationship, it's very easy to lose faith in yourself. While you're living it, the abuser is telling you you're stupid and can't take care of yourself and causes you to question your sanity and no matter what you do you're WRONG.

It doesn't help when the other people around you tell you the same thing. "You're crazy to stay". "There is something wrong with you". "What are you doing with that man?". "Why don't you just leave?".

It is hard to understand and accept that someone in an abusive relationship is staying because it's the best thing for them right now. It's hard to allow them that choice and respect them for it. But you have to.

Otherwise the last remaining confidence that person might have in themselves will be destroyed, and they will never gather the courage to get out.

I know that my friends and family must have thought about giving up on me. They must have been tired of the frantic phone calls and the tears and the menacing husband (who did everything he could to alienate them and push them away). But they stuck by me. Even though it was hard, they always tried to believe that I knew what I was doing and they trusted me to make the right choices for me. They didn't pretend to know what I should do.

I KNEW WHAT I HAD TO DO. I stayed when I had to stay and I left when I had to leave. I have no doubt in my mind that, every step of the way, I did exactly the right thing.

And having people believe in me helped me to believe in myself.

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For me, it was after I got pregnant. Fairly common, I'm told, for things to escallate after a major life change like marriage or pregnancy.

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Hey Rebecca,

I got pregnant only a few months after I got married (his idea, but I went for it). Within two weeks of finding out, my sister was taking me to the emergency room after he choked and beat me.

Pregnancy is a big accelarator of abuse. It may start at that point, or get worse. A lot of times, emotional abuse gets physical after pregnancy.

I think it might have to do with having someone more "trapped". The more they have you, the more they want to keep you. It's hard to leave when you're facing single parenthood!

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It is interesting how you put that escape for you was basically a kind of suicide...

Isn't there some period of intense anxiety because tho you've in once sense chosen death, the when/when/how of it was completely out of your control?

Did that time ever exist for you, or are you over that now?

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Sure, that period existed for me. But the will to live is an incredible thing. I didn't WANT to die. In my mind, I just didn't have any other choice.

I remember thinking that I could kill myself, but then he wouldn't go to jail. If I left him to do it, at least he'd probably get in trouble.

And I had a little baby girl. If I killed myself, he'd probably get her. If he killed me, he wouldn't.

When I finally left, REALLY left in my heart and body, even that fear wasn't so bad. I figured that life was wonderful, and that I would enjoy whatever life I had left. I'll never forget one day putting on a CD. It was R.E.M. or something. My ex was the techno type, and he used to visciously mock my choice in music. Generally, I didn't bother playing it at all. What a beautiful day that was - just to listen to the music I chose! You can't even imagine the relief and joy! Thinking about it still makes me smile.

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Is there a restraining order out on this guy?

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At first there were a few probation orders from criminal court (one for every charge) saying he couldn't have contact, directly or indirectly, with me. I moved a few thousand km away, and it's now three years later. To my knowledge the probation orders have expired. But he doesn't know where I am, either. I haven't heard from him in those three years, but some family members who still live out there come across him on occassion...

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I apologize deeply if this is prying too deeply (i sometimes have trouble recognizing boundaries), but I'm curious now about the phase(s) you went through after you left him.

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Don't worry about prying. I really don't know why, but the topic of domestic violence has come to fascinate me, and I enjoy sharing my story. If you keep asking, I'll keep writing!

Phases... Hmmm...

At first I was ambiguous. I had a hard time finalizing my decision and knowing I'd made the right one. I would let him come back to see our daughter every now and again. It always turned into a mistake.

Then one day I just didn't care about him anymore. He was screaming at me on the phone, and for the first time I hung it up truly hoping he'd never call back. I was absolutely, completely, one hundred percent OVER the man. That felt pretty good.

It was scary, too. I got all cloak and dagger like and went into hiding. I changed jobs and moved twice, and eventually moved across the country. I was pretty scared he'd find me. I slept with a knife under my pillow for six months. Strange, but I slept with my door unlocked. I have no bills or leases or anything in my name. For the most part, I don't exist on paper. I doubt anyone would be able to find me if they tried.

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Early on in the relationship there tends to be a bit of possessiveness. Nothing outrageous - just enough to be kind of flattering. Maybe some quietly spoken indignation at the pub that the man over there is looking at you. It accellerates from there.

Overall, though, an abusive relationship develops in the same way any relationship develops. There really aren't any hard and fast warning signs.

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Rosebud, I can respect your experience -- the 2 yrs I spent with the drunk, I was cerain I was making well-formed choices. Especially in the beginning.

I just had to comment on part of your post quoted above. In the beginning, you did have warning signs, but chose to ignore them. Even found them a little flattering. And that's the payoff I was talking about in my earlier posts. They do this, it makes you feel important. So does the contrition after the abuse.

And I can spot 'em a mile away. There's that insecurity paired with self-absorption, that ever-so-sweet yet controlling nature... There is a personality pattern to it, and learning to recognize it, and to recognize your attraction to it is very important for every woman. It's something I will be very sure to teach my daughters.

Also, what Adam added... My hubby was also in an emotionally abusive relationship before we met. He'd actually been in a series of them. It wasn't until he confronted his own patterns that he found what he needed to be in a healthy, equal partnership.

I have a sister who went through a micro-version of what some of you went through. I say micro because her abuse (physical) occurred only once - if what she says is true.

I'm not sure now if she was just hiding other incidents. She was living in the U.S. at the time, so there really wasn't much opportunity to check in on her.

Now, she is a verry strong and wilfull personality, so it's pretty easy for me to believe that it only happened the one time before she upped and left with their child.

On the other hand, she's got plenty enough pride for at least two people, so mebbe she wasn't so keen on revealing how long it'd been happening. Do you guys think it's a rare thing for it to be a one-time thing?

When she came back up here, she did the bob and weave thing too, staying in a couple of shelters before she got her mojo back.

I was absolutely livid at him. Never liked him much anyway, and it took my mother some serious and heavy talking with me to keep my ass out of jail for manslaughter.

Anyway, it's been some years and she's back in the U.S. now, and he's living up here. Thing is, they've been all friendly for the most part for a long time now. I don't think he's had any real svengali-like grip on her mentally, but rather she was holding out the possibility of getting regular child support from this punk (she's given up now).

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Having been in a rather emotionally abusive relationship, I found it impossible to gain very much perspective of my situation until after I was out of it. When someone has emotional power over you, it isn't hard for them to make you feel that somehow you deserve it, or that you're blowing things out of proportion.

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My daughter from that relationship is now 17, attending an alternative high school. She's a great kid. Except for a hideous custody/child support battle, we've had no contact with her father for about 15 years now. I have a lovely baby girl, a decent job that manages to support us all, and I'm seeing a really wonderful man. I feel quite fortunate.

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I'm serious, it takes two to tango. I know it sounds mean, but it's too true

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Hi,

It does sound a bit mean, but I guess I can see where you're coming from. But I don't agree on all the points you make.

Of course it takes two to tango. It takes two to form any relationship. I just insist that:

1). A woman (or man) caught in an abusive relationship doesn't necessarily have anything wrong with them. They are generally reacting normally to a very abnormal situation.

2). It doesn't take a stupid, vacuous, insecure, or otherwise dysfunctional person to get caught up in this type of situation. Like I said, it takes a perfectly normal person. That's the nutso thing about the cycle of abuse. It wraps up a NORMAL and HEALTHY response to something and turns it against you.

3). And I disagree entirely on the thought that you can "see them a mile away". That's a very dangerous thing to believe. Although there are certainly some men or women who are obviously abusive, there are a lot more who have it in them and you would never ever know it.

We hear it all the time. When the abuse is revealed in public, people say "I had no idea. He was so sweet and charming". I suppose some abusive nuts are more cunning than others, and better able to hide it.

In fact, if I'd watch out for anyone its the people who seem too perfect and harmless.

4). Were there signs? You suggest that they were there and I ignored them. The possessiveness and the rush are certainly indicators. They are much easier to see in retrospect.

But then, I've found myself feeling jeolous and possessive. And I've rushed into relationships headfirst. But I'm not an abusive person. Those things alone aren't enough for anyone to close that door. If they were, we'd all end up pretty lonely.

And finally, you know what? It takes two to tango. But it doesn't take two to put one in the hospital. No matter what one party contributes to the relationship or turns a blind eye to, they are not asking for or condoning violence against them.

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How're you managing now? How long has it been since you got out?

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Hi Rebecca!

I was really very lucky. I think I enjoy talking about it because it brings back that wonderful happy FREE and STRONG feeling I got when it was finally over (not that it's ever really over).

I've been out of that relationship for about three and a half years. My daughter was three days old when I made the move of booting the bum out. Of course, I went back and forth for the first six months or so, and I kept up a relationship with the guy.

But when every time I let him in the door I'd end up getting slapped or pushed or stolen from I eventually had enough. Like I said, I'll never forget the fateful day I hung up the phone sincerely never wanting to talk to the joker again! What a relief that was!

I was also fortunate in the sense that I wasn't alone. I had so many people around me who helped that I didn't have such a hard time of it. Not saying it was easy - nobody was handing me everything on a platter.

But I had a job. I had a wise boss who cut me some slack at work. I had a great group of friends who helped me with being a single mom (baby-sitting, making sure I wasn't excluded, rooting out hand-me-downs). I had a beautiful little girl to fight for and live for. And I had tons of support from the police and the Crown Prosecutors office (I lucked out and got the good guys).

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2). It doesn't take a stupid, vacuous, insecure, or otherwise dysfunctional person to get caught up in this type of situation. Like I said, it takes a perfectly normal person. That's
the nutso thing about the cycle of abuse. It wraps up a NORMAL and HEALTHY response to something and turns it against you.

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I never once said women who are abused are stupid or vacuous. Quite the opposite. I myself have been in an abusive relationship -- and I am anything but stupid. High IQ, well-educated and good-lookin' to boot.

But normalcy? Well, what is normal? The fact is, we all have our patterns. Some are positive, some are negative and we all have combos of the two. And what I'm saying is that there is a particular pattern for abusive men, and a particular pattern for women who are abused. It doesn't negate intelligence, but it's not a positive pattern for living. I merely suggest that recognizing your own patterns and changing them for the better is a good thing.

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3). And I disagree entirely on the thought that you can "see them a mile away". That's a very dangerous thing to believe. Although there are certainly some men or women who are obviously abusive, there are a lot more who have it in them and you would never ever know it.

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It's a facility that comes from experience. And of any of the women I know who have been in abusive relationships (other than myself, of course -- we all give our best advice away and keep none for ourselves), I've been able to call them. It extended to myself after a couple of abusive situations.

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4). Were there signs? You suggest that they were there and I ignored them. The possessiveness and the rush are certainly indicators. They are much easier to see in retrospect.

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Of course they're easier to see in retrospect. Been there, done that. I am, also coming at it from the angle of having done it more than once, and if I had explored the issues and patterns I was following after bad situation #1, I sincerely believe I could have avoided bad situation #2.

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And finally, you know what? It takes two to tango. But it doesn't take two to put one in the hospital. No matter what one party contributes to the relationship or turns a blind eye to, they are not asking for or condoning violence against them.

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I'm sorry you feel that I was saying that any person who suffers from domestic violence or abuse is "asking for it". Far from it. I believe we all deserve to be treated with respect. However, I also believe that we are responsible for our choices. If that choice is to disregard warning signs, or as you put it, "turn a blind eye", then we have to look at those choices and ask "Why did I make that choice? What can I change so I don't make that choice a second time? How can I teach my daughters not to make that choice?"

The (potentially) abusive guy is insecure, but hides it well; usually seems very together and confident. He is self-absorbed, but often hides that pretty well, too, at first.

How does he act with a woman he likes? He's usually romantic in the pulp-fiction sort of way: he pursues with gusto; gives flowers and presents, often spends more than he can afford; calls frequently; compliments her, offers to do things for her; wants to be with her as much as possible. It's all very flattering, and women love this. For some, or even most, it gets a tiny bit tiresome and unnecessarily intrusive, but they're willing to ignore that part.

What's really going on is that the guy sees something he wants, and he always goes after what he wants with a single-minded dedication that looks like Love-on-the-Silver-Screen, but is really selfish. He shows a great interest in everything you say, but what he really wants is information on effective bait.

Warning signs. If you ask him to back off, slow down, he says he will, but doesn't. If you tell him that your favourite colour is purple and what you think of 'Guernica' on the same night, he will send you purple balloons and look blank the next time you mention Picasso. If you tell him a long, involved story about a girlfiend in trouble, he will make lots of endearing remarks about your compassion, but forget the friend's name in five minutes. See, he appears to be listening intently, but what he's listening for is clues to advance his suit, not the actual content of your head.

What to tell your daughter: It's nice to be listened-to; enjoy it. But pay attention to what the boy remembers next day. What part of what you told him was most important to you? Did he catch and retain that?

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

How can you tell that they guy doesn't have a poor memory for names and a good memory for ideas. Some people will forget the name of your friend but remember her whole live story, since they are different types of memories.

Some people will lie about being interested in Picasso or sports, because they are trying to please the person. And some people like it when the person they are in love with are enthusiastic about something even if they themselves have no interest in it.

I look back at my marriage, and sniff around for examples of what I did wrong, and where I might have been emotionally abusive.

I remember my ex confronting me about a habit I had of putting her down in front of people. Always jokingly, I thought, and never without provocation. It seems that if my wife made a joke, I could fire back faster, and better. High comedy? I guess I never learned to pull a verbal punch too well. But when she explained her feelings, I realized that it had much to do with my own insecurities.

I felt a deep sense of shame over that, and I stopped.

I remain confused over another form of emotional abuse I may have engaged in.

In the latter half of our marriage, I became withdrawn. My ex complained I never talked to her. While I'm sure this happened, the causation remains all mixed up in my mind.

It seems to me I may have gone that way because my ex was so confrontational, would make what were to me inconsequential things a matter of arguement. I mean, she was unpleseant. And, in a full blown arguement, she would always go for the jugular.

When I joked around, I couldn't pull a verbal punch, when she was angry, she was the same.

After a while, I think I just learned to avoid confrontation by letting her have her way, and if things didn't work out, I was there to bear the consequences. Not exactly a foundation for warm conversation. Silence became "a good day."

It's difficult to figure out. Sometimes I think we take the deffinition of abuse too far, but I know it means more than just physical abuse, there's no denying there is such a thing as emotional abuse.

Was I a jerk? Undoubtedly, there are aspects of my character that would earn that title, and undoubtedly she was a jerk, too.

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I'm simply advocating a little self-examination, as well as looking at the problems of the abuser. It's better than remaining a victim.

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Hey Zoot Capri,

Sorry if I went a bit hay-wire there. I didn't mean to come off all self-rightous. In fact, I was kind of agreeing with you to an extent. I can get a bit excitable on the subject sometimes.

I can really see your point, but I'd say self-examination and the other things you discuss as necessary to abuse victims are good for everyone. Not everyone does it, not everyone has the luxery of doing it (especially when caught in the life or death mess of an abusive relationship), and not everyone is educated or insightful enough to do it.

I'm getting the impression that we actually agree on a lot of things. I can't say I'd agree that an "abuser" can be picked out of a crowd. I know that I can finger some of them right away (especially when they're with their partner). But I would never allow myself to be too comfortable thinking that we all could or should learn to recognize them.

But at the same time, I see your point. The experience has definately made me wiser. I recognize abuse much better now. It happens at times in the best of relationships! It's recognizing it, not putting up with it, and not allowing a cycle to develop that is important.

One of the things I feel really fortunate for is that I didn't grow up in a physically abusive home. There are people out there for whom being beaten or put down is normal. I knew what abuse was the first time I faced it. That didn't help me immediately, but I think it helped me in the long run.

I can agree that there are ways to avoid abusive relationships, but it's dangerous to put that responsibility on anyone. Having been there, you and I know what to watch out for. Others (like me when I was young and foolish) don't have any idea what they're in for...

Edited because i missed the boat - again.
Good stuff going on in the meantime.

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

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The (potentially) abusive guy is insecure, but hides it well; usually seems very together and confident. He is self-absorbed, but often hides that pretty well, too, at first.

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Also the traits of a psychopath. And the rest of us too...

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As long as we treat women in abused relationships like blameless victims, we perpetuate the cycle. They are as sick as the guys who hit, and they need treatment.

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I sympathize with you, but i will not allow you to mistreat me. I see that you are in pain, but i'm not responsible for it. I'm willing to help you get over the pain, but i will not allow you to displace it onto me. I'm willing to help you gain control over your own life, but only if you are willing to take responsibility.

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I was scared at first, of falling into another abusive situation, but I never lost the trust of my instincts and I went with it and I now truly consider myself one of the luckiest woman in the world!

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It took me quite a bit longer to become involved in another intimate relationship

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I'm scared that I haven't figured anything out, scared that there's something wrong with me, that I'm slyly abusive in a way I don't even understand, and that on the other hand, I probably invite the kind of abuse I took previously.

And someone is special to me now, and I'm scared I will mess it up unless I figure things out.

I'm concerned this week, I'm angry and I don't have an outlet-- other than ranting on line, I wonder if I've learned anything? Am I or anyone capable of learning anything? I'm scared it's to fundamental to who we are.

I think the person special to me is very smart. I think the things that cause me concern won't be a concern with her. She's responsible and has an understanding of life that's deeper than what my ex had-- or ever will have. So I know the things that caused my emotional withdrawl won't happen with her.

Thanks! We all deserve it, don't we?! And we'll all work at getting it. Maybe that's what abusive people are doing in their own sick little way.

You seem pretty cool yourself.

And hey, - you know, although not everyone was calling abused people stupid or vacuous, there are those who were. So hopefully they'll learn something!

And who knows what could happen? Things could go wrong and I might end up starting all over again...

And even though it would seem like the end of the world, I've learned that NOTHING is the end of the world except the world ending. You'd be surprised what a hard lesson that was!

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And who knows what could happen? Things could go wrong and I might end up starting all over again...

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Next item in the abuser pattern: they promise anything to get what they want. They don't stop to think about it, don't hedge, don't quibble, don't hesitate - just go right ahead and promise. (They may very well believe that they will do as they say, but things change. These guys live in the moment; the future has no substance.) After they've broken a dozen promises, they still don't hesitate to make the next one. After they beat you up, they apologize abjectly and promise that it will never happen again. There is no real intention behind the promise; though they may very well be truly sorry and not plan to do it again, neither will they make any effort to change. They don't always intend to lie, but they lie often and easily.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Jonas Norea ]

Anyone besides me currious about Cinderella II?

Pretty tall order, given that the genes are clamouring to replicate and the economy is ever hungry for the sale of romantic junk.

And, yes, we need to teach (and unteach) all the kids. Right now, i'm only interested in the raising of girls, because they take most of the beatings and need most urgently to protect themselves. The raising of good boys is complicated enough to deserve a separate discussion.

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My first priority in raising girls is to give them a strong sense of their own value. Pride, if you will. An unshakable conviction that they deserve respect and fair treatment.

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My first priority in raising girls is to give them a strong sense of their own value. Pride, if you will. An unshakable conviction that they deserve respect and fair treatment.

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Jane Elliot taught us more about racism, she taught us about dyslexia, ADHD, stuttering, about being a woman etc .. She taught us to how to answer the question - why should I think that I am good and worthy of respect when everyone is telling be that I am bad and that I am asking for too much?

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Jane Elliot created racism in her class by splitting the students into two groups, one good and one bad, based on eye colour (blue eyes and brown eyes). Testing two weeks before the experiment were carried out to offer a baseline reading of how capable students are. During the week of the experiment, the students on top did even better than their average, the ones on the bottom did even worse. When the groups were reversed, the scores of each were reversed as well. The card pack is a good example of this. While on the bottom, the students could not perform as well. This proves the self-fulfilling prophecy. At the end of it, their marks went back up and stayed there. Being called Brown-eyes made John feel bad, so he hit the other boy, Russel. The word Brown-eyes symbolizes the idea of inferior, stupid.

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[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: vaudree ]

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Anyway - it's a great discussion and your points are very interesting and thought provoking. What do you say to a truce?

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Accepted. 'Nuff said!

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Well, how to treat them then?

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Well, if you have a physical ailment that is causing you pain, you go to an MD, who will help you get rid of it. If you have a behaviour that you can't quite quit on your own, you go to a psychologist or counsellor to help you do that.

So often, victims of domestic abuse have their physical wounds bound up and their psychic ones ignored. And we so often ignore them ourselves.

Honestly, spending some time with a therapist doesn't mean you're out and out crazy. But it does help to have another set of ears and eyes, somebody else to ask the hard questions that we find so much difficulty facing. This worked wonders for me, and I think it would be hard for me to be in a loving, equal relationship (as I am now) without having taken that journey. It's hard work, but well worth it.

As for the rest of us bystanders, Nonesuch expressed it so very eloquently:

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I sympathize with you, but i will not allow you to mistreat me. I see that you are in pain, but i'm not responsible for it. I'm willing to help you get over the pain, but i will not allow you to displace it onto me. I'm willing to help you gain control over your own life, but only if you are willing to take responsibility.

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That about says it all.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

I try to raise my daughter to have her own voice. Here are some of the conscious things I make sure I encourage (or discourage)...

1). You don't have to kiss anyone or be nice to anyone or talk to anyone you don't want to. When an unfamiliar relative comes over, they can tend to be intrusive. Sometimes the stranger in the grocery store pinching your cheeks is a bit much. I find myself having to bite my tounge when my daughter looks at these people and says, "GO AWAY" or "LEAVE ME ALONE". I want to tell her to "be nice" or "polite", but I don't.

2). Tell her her body belongs to HER and no one else. Pretty classic psycho babble, but it's remarkable when my daughter comes to me and says, "I love my legs, they are good for climbing. I love my body, it is healthy and strong. I have big muscles, and I am beautiful".

3). Believe her words. My daughter comes home from pre-school telling me that she doesn't like "Ryan". I don't say "that isn't nice! You shouldn't say that". I ask why? I ask what happened? I say it's OK not to like someone. You don't have to like everyone or put up with something you don't want to.

4). Let her be herself. My daughter has always been encouraged to play with "boys toys". She is a bit of a tom boy by MY design. She's always worn blue and jeans and overalls and played with spiderman and dump trucks and hot wheels. That's what I gave her.

She came home from pre-school one day talking about Barbie dolls. I WAS HORRIFIED! I swore to myself the day she was born that she would NEVER HAVE A BARBIE!

But she likes Barbies' now. Who am I to say she's wrong? It's what she wants to play with, and it's what she'll get for her birthday gift. We had a discussion about the things I don't like about Barbie. (She doesn't look very healthy or strong. She doesn't even look like a real person. She can't play many fun games in those high heels).

5). I teach my daughter that whatever she CHOOSES is OK. But I also let her know that there are lots of people out there trying to make her choices for her. When it comes time to discuss sex, this will be my biggest lesson.

Whatever you do, do for YOU and not for anyone else. Learn to recognize the difference, and you'll be fine. Your body belongs to YOU and not to me or anyone else. You make up your own mind about what you want, but be sure it is your own mind and not pressure or influence from someone else.

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Don't worry, that is the first thing they will unlearn when they start school. And if they try to stick up for themselves they will be labelled Oppositionally Defiant, another term for "uppity."

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It's an uphill struggle much of the time, trying to give your kids decent values in the face of commercial and social pressure, and there are some very difficult years (typically 13 to 17), but it usually pays off in the end.

Second priority: always be there. No matter how many mistakes they made before, no matter how badly they screw up, you don't stop loving them. This doesn't mean you have to bail them out of every mess, or lend them money, or replace their broken toys or lie for them. It means that when they really need a haven, they can come home.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]