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The military official pointed to one discrepancy in the accounts. Preliminary information in the military investigation put the age of the alleged rape victim at 20, rather than 15, as reported by her neighbors, officials and hospital records and officials in Mahmoudiya.

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my brother was saying today that the americans should charge them with the most extreme possible crime, and then execute them all. this would achieve several goals:
1. it would demonstrate to iraqis that this type of behaviour is criminal, and is not tolerated.
2. it would give pause to american soldiers who have done or plan to do something similar.
3. it would show the islamists (who think that americans are fundamentally weak) that americans are willing to use deadly force when necessary, and to do so in retaliation for the perpetration of crimes against arabs.

not a bad thought if you ask me.

[ 03 July 2006: Message edited by: island empire ]

This is winning the hearts and minds? And you know Michelle, I don't believe in the death penalty either...but for some people...the gut reaction is "take him out and shoot him". It was my first thought.

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Originally posted by Polly Brandybuck:
Holy Shit. This is unbelievable.

This is winning the hearts and minds? And you know Michelle, I don't believe in the death penalty either...but for some people...the gut reaction is "take him out and shoot him". It was my first thought.

No. Don't execute him - find some way to make him suffer every single day of his life.

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Granted, the crime of rape is a terrible thing! And we have a ton of information to show us that rape is primarily about the high derived from exerting supreme power over another human being. Especially when the debasement of another person brings some form of pleasure to the perpetrator.

But when i witness some folks suggesting that they, themselves, would obtain a particular form of pleasure from the torment and debasement of the perpetrator, it is very difficult to see how the self-righteousness of one group is somehow different from the arrogance of the other?

The rapist believes that because they can debase another that they should. The punisher believes that because they are righteous they can bebase those they dislike.

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To me they are both getting a buzz off of their dalliance with extreme power and the righteousness of one's own narrow minded belief system.

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How, exactly, is a rape victim getting a 'buzz off their dalliance with extreme power"? And how is a rape victim empowered? Sorry Otter, but feeling animosity towards ones abuser does not make the abused and the abuser the same and this conflation of the victim of rape with extreme power is a lot troubling.

Have you not read the Story of Jane Doe vs. The Metropolitan Police? If not, I highly, highly suggest you do.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

The only difference between this horrendous rape and murder and any other is that this one was committed by a member of an army which unlawfully invaded a sovereign country and which brutalizes and kills its inhabitants every day for its own selfish aims.

The penalty meted out against the suspect should follow a fair trial, taking account of all the circumstances, in an Iraqi court, under Iraqi law, after the invaders have all been either killed or expelled, as they choose.

Then, the political/military commanders who ordered this invasion should stand trial in front of an international court to answer for their crimes against humanity, and punished if found guilty.

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The penalty meted out against the suspect should follow a fair trial, taking account of all the circumstances, in an Iraqi court, under Iraqi law...

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One day before the "transfer of sovereignty" from US forces to Iraq in the year 2004, the US "promulgated" an Order which binds the present Iraqi government.

Called Order 17, it exempts all Coalition personnel, civilian and military alike, from all Iraqi penal law. The Iraqis don't get to lay charges, hold trials, or otherwise hold accountable any US or other coalition citizen for any offences they may commit.

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Article 1) Unless provided otherwise herein, the MNF, the CPA, Foreign Liaison Missions, their Personnel, property, funds and assets, and all International Consultants shall be
immune from Iraqi legal process.

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quote:

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Called Order 17, it exempts all Coalition personnel, civilian and military alike, from all Iraqi penal law. The Iraqis don't get to lay charges, hold trials, or otherwise hold accountable any US or other coalition citizen for any offences they may commit.

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Originally posted by Stargazer:

Yes but as Jeff pointed out, it is highly unlikely much will be done. Just as the US is immune from the Geneva Conventions, thus it is also immune from war crimes. How convenient.

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Americans who get their propaganda from Fox "News" or are told what to think by right-wing talk radio hosts are outraged at news reports that US troops planned and carried out the rape and murder of a young Iraqi woman.

They are not outraged that the troops committed the deed; they are outraged that the media reported it....

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I have made it clear in my columns that Bush supporters are not true conservatives. They are brownshirts with the same low intelligence and morals as Hitler’s enthusiastic supporters. And they are just as resistant to facts.

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Originally posted by otter:

The rapist believes that because they can debase another that they should. The punisher believes that because they are righteous they can bebase those they dislike.

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Those troops under investigation are from the same platoon as two soldiers kidnapped and killed south of Baghdad this month, another official said Friday. Their mutilated bodies were found June 19, three days after they were abducted by insurgents near Youssifiyah, southwest of Baghdad.

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Originally posted by arborman:
Life in prison without parole would be an appropriate punishment. I don't particularly care which country's prison, as long as it happens (assuming the accused are guilty - which has not yet been proven in a court of law yet).

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you got it cueball: not to be bloodthirsty, but this wasn't just rape.

the soldiers busted into a house they'd been casing for some time, they murdered the child's entire family, that is her parents and sibling, and then they gang raped her, and then incinerated the evidence (the lit the bodies on fire). the whole thing was carefully planned, the men were not intoxicated, and the victims were known only because the daughter had been spotted by the main perpetrator.

okay, while i'd love to debate how the death penalty is barbaric and all that, if there's anything that warrants it, this is the kind of thing that warrants it. moreover, imagine all the other people this puts in danger everywhere: every friend, relative, neighbor or outraged observer is going to look at this and say something like 'yeah, these americans are bastards, i'd like to see them dead'. it's not all that complicated.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: island empire ]

quote:

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the soldiers busted into a house they'd been casing for some time, they murdered the child's entire family, that is her parents and sibling, and then they gang raped her, and then incinerated the evidence (the lit the bodies on fire). the whole thing was carefully planned, the men were not intoxicated, and the victims were known only because the daughter had been spotted by the main perpetrator.

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Anyone that expects any better behaviour from soldiers that they train to kill other human beings with impunity in the farce they call war making needs to find themselves in the midst of a battle someday.

Sorry about that.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: clersal ]

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Originally posted by Jingles:
I don't think they should throw those guys in jail. Oh no. They should be returned to the States, and be given jobs coaching teenage girls' soccer for all those parents whom put the "Support our Troops", "God Bless America", "Bush/Cheney04", and "Marines", bumperstickers on their SUVs.

I'm sure they wouldn't mind a war hero/murderous child rapist coaching their young daughters. I mean, they wouldn't do that to Christians, would they?

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Frank Zappa wrote a song called "Po-Jama People".

The lyrics include:

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The pyjama people are boring me to pieces
Feel like I am wasting my time
They all got flannel up 'n down 'em
A little trap-door back aroun' 'em
An' some cozy little footies on their mind

Po-jama people!
Po-jama people, people!
They sure do make you sleepy
With the things they might say
Po-jama people!

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Originally posted by Jingles:

I'm sure they wouldn't mind a war hero/murderous child rapist coaching their young daughters. I mean, they wouldn't do that to Christians, would they?

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U.S. Sees Possible Links Between Incidents in Iraq
The slayings of three soldiers near the site of an alleged rape and the killing of a family may have been an act of revenge, an official says.
By Julian E. Barnes, Times Staff Writer
July 5, 2006

BAGHDAD — The U.S. military is investigating whether the kidnapping, killing and mutilation of two American soldiers was carried out in retaliation for an alleged rape and murder of an Iraqi woman by another member of the same unit three months earlier, a military official said Tuesday....

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Originally posted by arborman:

And what did the daughters do to deserve this?

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Safiyah Suhail, a woman representative from the National Iraqi List in parliament, demanded that PM Nuri al-Maliki and Interior Minister Jawad al-Bulani present themselves to parliament for questioning in the matter. She demanded that the Iraqi government be involved in the investigation. She said that this was a matter that touched on the honor of the Iraqi nation and the female MPs had a special role to play in demanding an accounting.

Suhail is former ambassador to Egypt of the new Iraqi government and stood against the imposition of Islamic law on Iraqi women. That a secular person is so stirred up about this suggests to you what the Sunni and Shiite fundamentalists are thinking. For most Iraqis, honor is bound up in the chastity of their women, at least in public, and a foreigner raping an Iraqi girl is a profound humiliation for the entire country. This matter is not going to go away quietly and if the Bush administration thinks it is just a matter of disciplining unruly troops, it has another think coming. Entire colonial empires have been shaken by such incidents in the past.

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
With all due respect, vengence never makes good policy. Not for Americans. Not for Israelis. Not for Palestinians. And not for Iraqis.

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But, should there be some justice in punishment?

There are several reasons given for punishment: General deterrence (others will see what happens to a wrong-doer and will presumably be persuaded to refrain from acting similarly in order to avoid similar punishment), specific deterrence (deterring the wrong-doer from committing a similar act), protecting the public (by locking up the wrong-doer so he can't physically commit the same act), reform (teaching the wrong-doer how to walk the straight and narrow) and vengeance (or perhaps "justice").

So, taking those reasons for punishing a person into consideration, let’s say that after a year of confinement, the consensus was that the rapist/murderer was highly unlikely to commit any other crime if released, because specific deterrence worked and the guy was reformed (thus eliminating the need to protect the public). I would, as a matter of justice (not to mention general deterrence) keep the guy locked up for the rest of his life for crimes so heinous. I suppose some might call that vengeance.

I wouldn't support killing him (I'm not in favor of capital punishment for a variety of reasons) or for treating him inhumanely. Just lock him up...as a matter of justice.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Sven ]

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I wouldn't support killing him (I'm not in favor of capital punishment for a variety of reasons) or for treating him inhumanely. Just lock him up...as a matter of justice

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Given the fact that some cases can take years to be resolved and even longer with appeals, the SWIFTness component is lost in this day and age.

Whether the sanction imposed is JUST or not is in the eye and ear of the beholder.

As for INEVITABLE, [pause so readers can stop laughing] one of the greatest motivators for criminal behaviour is the knowledge that most criminals get away with most of their crimes most of the time. The only exception being the incredibly incompetent and murders out of passion.

maliki wants oversight of prosecution

[ 06 July 2006: Message edited by: jeff house ]

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Originally posted by Sven:

It is "highly unlikely much will be done" by whom? If this guy's guilty, he'll very likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

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How? If he's no longer in the military, he can't be charged under the UCMJ, and the US has insited on an exemption from Iraqi law for it's personnel.

American domestic law lack jurisdiction, as well. So what can be done? The soldier COULD be triend under the ICC, which retains jurisdiction for exactly this manner of crime, but that's a result unacceptable to the doctrine of american exceptionalism.

Yet the people of Iraq, probably many people of the US, and the world will demand that those responsible be tried for this crime.

quote:

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Originally posted by S1m0n:
How? If he's no longer in the military, he can't be charged under the UCMJ

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Huh. That's news to me.

Actually, here are the facts:

If this guy committed murder at the time he was a member of the US military (back in March when he was still a soldier), this guy is subject to the UCMJ, even if he is subsequently no longer a member of the military.

To start with, the UCMJ applies to, among others, "Members of a regular component of the armed forces" (see Section 802, Article 2(a)(1)), which this defendant indisputably was at the time of the rape/murders.

Secondly, under Section 803, Article 3(a) (see same link):

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”Subject to section 843 of this title (article 43), no person charged with having committed, while in a status in which he was subject to this chapter, an offense against this chapter, punishable by confinement for five years or more and for which the person cannot be tried in the courts of the United States or of a State, a Territory, or District of Columbia, may be relieved from amenability to trial by court-martial by reason of the termination of that status.”

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So, even if this guy’s status of being within the scope of Section 802, Article 2(a)(1) has subsequently terminated, that guy is still subject to the UCMJ if civilian laws will not apply and if the punishment for the crime under the UCMJ committed is punishable by five years or more in prison (which it clearly is).

If you can find an exception under Section 843 that would apply, I’d been keen to hear it.