babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » walking the talk   » labour and consumption   » Reopened former Festival theatre in TO uses scab projectionist

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Reopened former Festival theatre in TO uses scab projectionist
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 December 2006 08:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Got this in my e-mail. What a shame - these theatres have been wonderful in Toronto, and the good news that one of them is reopening is really shadowed by this bad labour practice.

quote:
There's been a fair bit of coverage in Toronto newspapers recently about the re-opening of the Royal Cinema (formerly of the rep chain, Festival), by Theatre D. It's all been positive, about how Theatre D's restored the Royal and going to emphasis Canadian independent film.

But walking past it last night -- their opening night,in which they were showing the semi-political _Monkey Warfare_ (about aging wannabe radicals who were formerly with an irresponsible anti-worker urban guerilla group a la the Squamish Five) -- I encountered picketers from the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees Local 173. Apparently, Theatre D is using a scab projectionist! The new owners of the Royal refuse to employ union members despite the fact that the union has a legal collective agreement at this theatre, and have forced the union projectionist out of his job. The owners also refuse to meet with the union to discuss the matter.

Here's an example of pseudo-progressives (people out to make a buck in part by using progressive veneer) screwing over working people and unions.

(Perhaps telling about the film opening there last night, Reg Harkema's Monkey Warfare, is today's review in the Globe and Mail that described it as "hip" -- beware "hip".)

The union is asking us to boycott the theatre and contact the owners to tell them what we think:

John Hazen and Dan Peel

[email protected]
416-919-6246

[email protected]
416-919-8933



From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2753

posted 17 December 2006 10:20 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just a quick note to let folks know that I dropped by the IATSE info-picket Saturday night and walked the line for a couple of hours.There were about 4 IATSE union members (including the IATSE projectionist who wasn't hired back by the Royal's new management). As with most workers, they were happy to have the solidarity and I'm sure even a small contingent from others on this board would go a long way. We flyered hundreds of people and a good number of folks decided not to cross the picket line (one even bought us some coffee).

Anyway, here's the text of the flyer IATSE was handing out:

Ontario motion picture projectionists and video technicians
BOYCOTT THE ROYAL
Owned and operated by THEATRE D DIGITAL

THE FACTS...A new company, THEATRE D DIGITAL, has purchased the Royal Cinema

-> The new owners have FORCED OUR PROJECTIONIST OUT OF HIS JOB despite the fact that we have a legal contract at this theatre. However, they have re-hired other non-union staff.

-> We have supplied projectionists and technicians to the Royal Cinema since it opened in 1939. WE ARE PART OF THIS NEIGHBORHOOD AND COMMUNITY.

-> We have been forced to picket because THEATRE D DIGITAL HAS REFUSED to meet with us and discuss the situation after many attempts on our part.

PLEASE DO NOT PATRONIZE THIS UNFAIR EMPLOYER UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN RESOLVED.

(Back of flyer)
YOU CAN HELP BY

- NOT GOING IN until this dispute is settled
- Buying nothing at the snack bar and RETURN ONLY AFTER THE BOYCOTT IS OVER
- CONTACTING THE OWNERS and tell them how you feel about their illegal action.

John Hazen
[email protected]
416-919-6246

Dan Peel
[email protected]
416-919-8933

Ontario's professional projectionists thank you for your understanding and support.


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2753

posted 17 December 2006 10:23 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Also, the Torontoist blog has a story on the dispute with some choice qoutes from the film maker in the comments section (such as "Down with Unions, Up with Workers Councils").

Torontoist: Battle Royal


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flick Harrison
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4273

posted 17 December 2006 11:37 PM      Profile for Flick Harrison   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Semi-political film Monkey Warfare?" What the hell does it take for a film to be called fully-political?

Yeesh.

I wish you hadn't posted an anonymous email, Michelle, because the polemic from this writer is therefore hard to contextualize.

For instance, claiming the film is about an "irresponsible anti-worker urban guerilla group a la the Squamish Five" is really overreaching, even if the person HAS seen the film which seems unlikely considering their attitude towards the picket line around the Royal. Never mind the fact that reductively linking a fictional representation of some of the characters within a film to some direct literal representation of the film's overall thematic socio-political values seems a little dishonest and hasty.

Just because some characters may or may not have some affinity with some anti- or not-anti labour group which may or may not be irresponsible (who knows? the writer hasn't seen the film) seems a very thin basis indeed with which to accuse a filmmaker of siding with management and screwing the worker for a buck.

Shame on y'all!

It's unpleasantly opportunist to slam an indie Canadian political (NOT semi-political) film as a way of scoring points against the cinema chain that is showing it. Keep in mind that if a few pennies make it back to the filmmaker it will be a very unusual windfall.

But to say that Reg, the filmmaker, is "out to make a buck in part by using progressive veneer," well, I say, a rooty toot toot and up your nose with a rubber hose. You're playing that game which George Orwell used to deride among leftists, since it wasted all their time and energy: "Spot the Closet Fascist!"

-Flick Harrison
-worked on Monkey Warfare.

[ 17 December 2006: Message edited by: Flick Harrison ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 17 December 2006 11:45 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd say you need to take a few steps back to get some perspective, Flick.
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2753

posted 18 December 2006 07:54 AM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Flick Harrison:
Just because some characters may or may not have some affinity with some anti- or not-anti labour group which may or may not be irresponsible (who knows? the writer hasn't seen the film) seems a very thin basis indeed with which to accuse a filmmaker of siding with management and screwing the worker for a buck.

Shame on y'all!

-Flick Harrison
-worked on Monkey Warfare.


I don't care about your stupid movie, if it wasn't being shown by a scab (who's not even a projectionist, but a guy who repairs the equipment from what I hear) I probably would have gone and seen the movie instead of picketing the theatre (and no, I didn't write the email that Michelle posted).

As for the filmmaker siding with management, and screwing the worker, the fact that it's being shown on the wrong side of a picket line is enough for that. The content doesn't matter, it could be the Spice Girl movie for all the difference it would make. If the filmmaker was really left-wing or progressive in any meaningful sense of the words they would pull the movie from the scab theatre.

Shame yourself. Being "political" is knowing which side of the picket line you're on.

BOYCOTT THE ROYAL!

[ 18 December 2006: Message edited by: Mick ]


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 December 2006 10:03 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Flick Harrison:
But to say that Reg, the filmmaker, is "out to make a buck in part by using progressive veneer," well, I say, a rooty toot toot and up your nose with a rubber hose.

Who said that? I think it's obvious from the e-mail that they were talking about the cinema chain, not the filmmaker. The point being that the cinema chain is banking on people being happy about them showing indie and progressive films while they hire scab labour to do so.

I think it's really weird that you're taking offense at this protest.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 18 December 2006 10:18 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, the author of the email did make a drive-by smear of the movie Monkey Warfare shown by this theatre, (which is shown in Vancouver and Ottawa as well). That's a little curious--as if the film itself is worse because of a small local labour dispute. If I worked on this movie, I'd be upset too. Although, Flick's discontent might also stem from the fact that this action effectively boycotts his film as well as the theatre, since it's the only place in Toronto the film is shown (aside from TIFF).

And he's right about anonymous emails. They should not be the foundation of something as serious as a boycott.

ETA: Except, the email isn't anonymous. Well that is weird. Why don't you address the union concern, Flick?

[ 18 December 2006: Message edited by: Catchfire ]


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Flick Harrison
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4273

posted 18 December 2006 10:48 AM      Profile for Flick Harrison   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Catchfire,

in the email excerpt Michelle posted above, i can't see any names. It talks about the two owners and IATSE but isn't signed. Unless it comes from elsewhere on the web.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 18 December 2006 10:51 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It seems to me it comes from the IATSE, and at any rate, the union supports the action, unless you question the veracity of both the email and Mick's testimony?
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Flick Harrison
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4273

posted 18 December 2006 11:48 AM      Profile for Flick Harrison   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Clearly the picket line comes from the mighty I.A., but I can't imagine IATSE officially trashing an indie film in their correspondence (a film made in cooperation with all the applicable unions, including IA, I believe). That's the identity I was questioning - the author of the snide film blurb [].

I'm not taking offense at the protest. I supported the proj strike in Vancouver a few years back and didn't go see any films while that strike was on. (It's a sad portent for the Royal action - that strike failed).

But, especially with a labour dispute cutting into ticket sales, the likelihood of a Canadian indie staying in the theatre long enough to be withdrawn by the filmmaker in any sort of protest is laughable. How would anyone know the difference?

Surely there's a higher level for this dispute to go - there is a writer's union, a director's guild, ACTRA, etc... can't these big players get involved, instead of asking a self-financed independent filmmaker (deeply in debt) to screw himself over by breaking contracts with his distributor? Would Theatre D unthread the celluloid just 'cos the filmmaker told them to?

Yes, the filmmaker has a unique personal position that could draw attention to the issue and put pressure on the cinema. But what support would exist for the producers of the film in that case? A pat on the back on the rabble discussion boards? Is there a DGC strike fund to support the withdrawal of all the upcoming films in the Royal's calendar?


In my correspondence with Reg and close attention to this film's release, I never heard about this dispute til yesterday. Maybe the cultural workers ought to be brought into the conversation at the planning stage instead of just having mud slung at them...? Anonymously? .. when it's too late to do anything other than a self-destructive, isolated, showy gesture like trying to impulsively pull their film on opening night, which would be satisfying show-biz but would most likely assure that Reg's political voice is removed from the film industry permanently, not to mention his personal liability?

I'm not a labour expert, BTW - when there's a strike at a grocery store, do the farmers have to stop selling their produce to it, in breach of contract? I know the law usually sides with capital, but what's the right approach from labour's perspective?

[ 18 December 2006: Message edited by: Flick Harrison ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 December 2006 12:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're right - someone just sent it to an activist list that I maintain. I think it's obvious from the e-mail that it's from someone who was just passing the picket and wanted to tell about it. I don't really see any reason to post the person's name since s/he isn't actually a representative of the union and was just basically joe/sephine on the street. Enough information was given in the e-mail that the veracity of the claim could be checked. Which Mick did, and as it turns out, the person had it accurate.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 December 2006 12:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Flick Harrison:
That's the identity I was questioning - the author of the snide film blurb which, after all this, I'm guessing is Mick.

You'd be wrong, and he's already said as much.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2299

posted 18 December 2006 12:20 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
can't these big players get involved, instead of asking a self-financed independent filmmaker (deeply in debt) to screw himself over by breaking contracts with his distributor?
He doesn't seem to be so conflicted, given that he's joking about the whole situation over at Torontoist ("Down with Unions! Up with Workers' Councils!"). The least he could do is create the impression that he cares about labour rights.

And given the recent example set by Blue Man Group, it may actually be a poor financial decision for him to continue with a theatre that hires scab labour. Is it really wise to screen your film in an anti-union theatre if it's purportedly aimed at a progressive audience?


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Flick Harrison
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4273

posted 18 December 2006 01:21 PM      Profile for Flick Harrison   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You think "down with unions, up with worker's councils" is a joke?

Didn't notice Mick said he didn't write the email, so oops. But Michelle re-posted it, so I guess that makes it hers in a way.

I'm not disputing whether there was a picket. I am taking issue with the email's smear on the film itself...

[ 18 December 2006: Message edited by: Flick Harrison ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 December 2006 01:29 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, it's not mine. Reposting something doesn't make it "yours". It makes it "reposted".
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Flick Harrison
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4273

posted 18 December 2006 01:51 PM      Profile for Flick Harrison   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle, as a moderator of a chat forum, you can understand that those comments have led to a discussion. The discussion is coloured by that opening salvo.

I would have responded much differently had Reg's ethics not been questioned by the email you re-posted. So the original poster doesn't have to take responsibility because their name is left out. And you don't have to take responsibility because you're just "reposting."

So it's a wild pot-shot from the peanut gallery and I suppose it's not worth discussing any further.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 December 2006 01:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I take full responsibility for posting it here. I'm just saying that just because I posted it doesn't mean I can take credit for having written it. That's called plagiarism.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 18 December 2006 02:00 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Flick, this thread is about a Labour dispute. While I agree that the pot-shot at the actual film was in poor taste, unhelpful, and obviously alienating, what we're actually concerned with is ostensibly progressive institutions failing to live up to progressive labour practices. I'm sorry you're offended by the emailer's opinion of your movie, but it's really not what is at issue here.

Personally, I think this sort of thing is inevitable—independent culture is so cash strapped that its distributors look at all kinds of ways to make sure they can get their art out. Flick mentioned that the filmmaker is in debt. This is criminally common in the independent culture market. Sooner or later, after seeing so many indie culture ventures close, hiring non-union employees for cheaper is going to look pretty appealing. People who are counter-culture are not always going to be well-versed on union and labour ethics. The real problem is how major cultural producers have forced these independent jobbies with their backs against the walls.


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2753

posted 18 December 2006 02:56 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Flick Harrison:
Clearly the picket line comes from the mighty I.A., but I can't imagine IATSE officially trashing an indie film in their correspondence (a film made in cooperation with all the applicable unions, including IA, I believe). That's the identity I was questioning - the author of the snide film blurb.

Well, you're right, the author of the email that's the first post isn't from IATSE. It's from an unaffiliated union activist who happened to walk by the theatre and see the picket line, gather what was going on, and pass it along.


quote:

Surely there's a higher level for this dispute to go - there is a writer's union, a director's guild, ACTRA, etc... can't these big players get involved, instead of asking a self-financed independent filmmaker (deeply in debt) to screw himself over by breaking contracts with his distributor? Would Theatre D unthread the celluloid just 'cos the filmmaker told them to?

According the the IATSE members on the line they already filed a complaint with the Ontario Labour Relations Board, which has yet to rule on it (but when they do it will likely become a "lockout" officially).

I don't know what legal ramifications pulling the film would entail for the filmmaker. Those are legitimate questions. As far as I know the union hasn't asked him to do that. However, he did cross the picket line on opening night didn't he? Was that also in any legal contract with Theatre D? Also, like spatrioter said, the only thing we've seen from him is some snarky anti-union comments on the Torontoist blog. Seems like he, like you, doesn't really give a shit about this outside of what people are saying about the movie itself. Again, the movie is not the issue. Get over yourselves you egomaniacs!

quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
Sooner or later, after seeing so many indie culture ventures close, hiring non-union employees for cheaper is going to look pretty appealing.

Except from what I understand the scab is actually being paid more than the union projectionist would have been under the existing contract. The new owners are from good ole' anti-union Alberta and either don't know or don't care about Ontario Labour laws. This is straight up union busting.

It is a shame that it came to this but remember the union tried to talk to the new owners, who flat out refused to even listen to the fact that the theatre has an existing legally binding contract with IATSE. This dispute is on managements hands, not the union's.


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 18 December 2006 03:01 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Suppose that I open a new restaurant in the same location as some previous restaurant. Am I required to hire the same chef, the same wait staff, and the same dishwashers as the restaurant that was in the same location previously?
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 18 December 2006 03:14 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's not exactly the same thing, Martha, because theatre-workers have a province-wide union, whereas restaurant workers are rarely unionized (unfortunately). If the theatre hires a non-union worker for union labour, then, it is an infringement of labour ethics.

To answer your question, morally, the answer is obviously yes. Practically, because of the shoddy labour practices of the food & beverage industry, the answer is usually no.

And Mick: I have a hard time believing that the new projectionist is being paid more. This whole situation would greatly benefit from more facts and testimony from the actors rather than conjecture and hearsay.


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 18 December 2006 03:17 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Depends on the contract the previous workers had. Given the state of labour relations in that industry, no. However, projectionists run under different rules and the current operators of the Royal are violating them.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2753

posted 18 December 2006 03:20 PM      Profile for Mick        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Catchfire:
I have a hard time believing that the new projectionist is being paid more. This whole situation would greatly benefit from more facts and testimony from the actors rather than conjecture and hearsay.

Like I said, its likely not a projectionist that's running the projector. A guy that works for a company that REPAIRS the machines was seen crossing the picket line on the weekend. The IATSE projectionist who worked at the Royal for the past decade (and who I heard this first hand from) makes less per hour. Kind of like how a mechanic would make more per hour than a driver.


From: Parkdale! | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 18 December 2006 03:28 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why would they pay more money for the same work? It doesn't make any sense. Projector repair workers are only needed occasionally, so it wouldn't make sense for a small theatre to have one on permanent staff. Has he always worked for the theatre, and in this case the management is simply cutting a job? Is the repairman a member of the union too? I haven't seen enough information to justify boycotting a theatre yet.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 18 December 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From The Torontoist:
quote:
There having been no prior word or news coverage of the union's grievances or intention to picket...potential patrons were thus compelled to base any decision on whether or not to enter the theatre on the dueling leaflets, which of course only provided parts of the story.

More substantive information can now, however, be garnered from that CNW release, which illuminates that "Under the Labour Relations Act of Ontario a Union retains its jurisdiction whenever a business is sold. The Royal was sold to Theatre D by the McQuillan family that formerly ran the Festival Chain." The Theatre D release disputes the latter claim, but their retort that the movie house was sold to a "historical property enthusiast and leased to Theatre D" is certainly news to us. Virtually every article published about the Royal's salvation (including several archived on Theatre D's own site), makes specific mention of the ownership of the property itself having been transferred to Theatre D.



From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 19 December 2006 09:58 AM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In an earlier post I asked, "Suppose that I open a new restaurant in the same location as some previous restaurant. Am I required to hire the same chef, the same wait staff, and the same dishwashers as the restaurant that was in the same location previously? "

To which Catchfire answered, "To answer your question, morally, the answer is obviously yes."

I disagree.

Suppose that Chez Michelle closes down at 514 College Street, and the location stands empty for a month or two. Then I rent it out, and open Chez Martha, at the same location. Also suppose that my friend opens up Chez Catchfire next door at 516 College Street at the same time that I open up Chez Martha. I completely fail to see why Chez Martha have special duties to the former employees of Chez Michelle -- but presumably Chez Catchfire does not -- just because I happen to have opened my restaurant in the same location as the previous Chez Michelle's. It would be different if I bought Chez Michelle: then I would inherit -- morally if not legally -- the contractual obligations taken on by Chez Michelle. But if I am opening up an entirely new establishment, then the mere fact that it's in the same location gives me no special duties to these particular individuals. Of course, I would have a duty to pay the chef, wait staff and dishwashers an appropriate wage, etc. But I would also have a right to make my own hiring decisions, and not be stuck with whatever hiring decision were made by the now defunct Chez Michelle.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 19 December 2006 10:08 AM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As I said before, that's true in the restaurant business but not in the movie theatre business. The difference is the labour contract the previous owners signed. If Chez Michelle signed a contract with her workers saying they would have work at any restaurant opened on the same premises you (actually the owners of the premises, which would be Chez Michelle, since the owners would be the only ones who could sign such a contract) would be required to honour it.

The contract is part of what is sold when you sell a movie theatre. Or conversely, what you buy.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 December 2006 10:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And probably the reason it's like that is because if it weren't, all an owner of a business would have to do, if their staff decided to unionize and they wanted to break the union, is to sell the business to a relative (or a spouse), say it's under new ownership, and fire all the unionized staff and hire non-unionized people.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 19 December 2006 11:06 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I always thought if I opened a restaurant, I'd call it the "Deli Lama." But I guess that's culturally insensitive.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 19 December 2006 01:50 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From what I know of the current occupant of the post, he would want to eat there.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452

posted 19 December 2006 02:30 PM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):
In an earlier post I asked, "Suppose that I open a new restaurant in the same location as some previous restaurant...

i could be wrong here Martha, but you are not talking about the purchase of an existing business, but the start of an entirely new one. In your example you say Chez Michelle closed for 2 months before you opened your Chez Martha. This would in my opinion (and it is just that, but i have also been a steward for 12 years) not be subject to any obligation to the previous tennants or employees.

However, should you have purchased Chez Michelle from Michelle, lock, stock, and barrell, and the employees at Michelle's had a collective agreement, you would be required by law to honour that agreement.

From what i can tell from the previous posts, Theatre D purchased the Royal from the previous owners who had a collective agreement with the projectionists union (and therefore the projectionist himself), are still calling it the Royal, there is no break in operation, so they would be required to honour that collective agreement under the labour laws.

This is not some sort of scam. this is contract and labour law, and is pretty simple and would be known prior to purchasing the business. If it was not, i would suggest the Theatre D owners did not practice due dilligence, and will most likely lose at the Labour Board. The unfortunate part is the unncessary conflict and bad blood generated in the process.

It's too bad really. I have met the Theatre D guys and thought they were alright. I will bring this up with them if i run into them again. There is no excuse for this sort of juvenile behaviour from business professionals. They expect their suppliers and clients to abide by the contracts they sign with them. Why is the situation different when it is an employee? Total hypocrisy.


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 19 December 2006 02:59 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree entirely that if I buy Chez Michelle (i.e. the business), then I am bound (certainly morally and probably legally) by the contracts signed by Chez Michelle and its chef, wait staff and dishwashers. I would even guess that this is true even if I change the name of "Chez Michelle" to "Chez Martha".

There is a murkier situation that I am curious about. Suppose that Michelle owns not only the business (i.e. Chez Michelle) but also the actual building (in my example, 514 College Street (a randomly chosen address: I have no idea what's there)). Suppose that I buy the building but not the business, and then I open a new restaurant in that location: Chez Michelle's was a pizza joint my my new restaurant will be a hamburger join. Does labour law bind me to the employees of Chez Michelle?


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 19 December 2006 03:09 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:
As I said before, that's true in the restaurant business but not in the movie theatre business. The difference is the labour contract the previous owners signed. If Chez Michelle signed a contract with her workers saying they would have work at any restaurant opened on the same premises you (actually the owners of the premises, which would be Chez Michelle, since the owners would be the only ones who could sign such a contract) would be required to honour it.

The contract is part of what is sold when you sell a movie theatre. Or conversely, what you buy.


I know of a case (in another city) where someone bought a movie theatre and ran it as a cafe: they basically used the lobby areas as their cafe; they used some of the pre-existing equipment and brought in some more stuff for their coffee and cakes, etc. About once a month, they would show free movies -- usually campy stuff they got cheap -- to draw customers. In a similar situation in Toronto, would this cafe be bound by the contracts signed by the movie theatre and its workers?


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 19 December 2006 03:09 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Depends on the contract. IATSE projectionist contracts are apparently tied to the building.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 19 December 2006 03:10 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If indeed contract law is being broken, then my advice to the projectionist would be to take this to the courts rather than [EDIT: in addition to] the streets.

[ 19 December 2006: Message edited by: Martha (but not Stewart) ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Flick Harrison
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4273

posted 19 December 2006 04:18 PM      Profile for Flick Harrison   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Funny enugh, there is a good reason why Reg might not have had the presence-of-mind to make a life-changing, self-screwing decision on the spur of the moment, when confronted with a picket line at his Big Life Event.

SHROOMS!

Is it any wonder he has taken a freaky attitude?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 20 December 2006 01:43 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is gross.

I remember the 1998-99 lock-out by Odeon and Famous Players chains bosses, and how they basically did bust the union.

It's at the point now where the small chains and independents, which use mostly union projectionists, actually pay better than the two mammoth chains, which, if memory serves, are now actually under one mega-conglomerate.

And they still have the smug-ass audacity to charge $11.50 to see a movie ($4 higher than the union theaters).

I boycotted them during the fight, and although the boycott is off now, I have not gone back, and likely never will.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 December 2006 04:13 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martha (but not Stewart):
There is a murkier situation that I am curious about. Suppose that Michelle owns not only the business (i.e. Chez Michelle) but also the actual building (in my example, 514 College Street (a randomly chosen address: I have no idea what's there)). Suppose that I buy the building but not the business, and then I open a new restaurant in that location: Chez Michelle's was a pizza joint my my new restaurant will be a hamburger join. Does labour law bind me to the employees of Chez Michelle?

Wow, that is a good question. I have no idea what the answer is to that. Now I'm curious too.

But in this case, it's not a different type of business. It was a movie theatre before, and it's a movie theatre now.

I am curious about continuity, though. farnival, were you saying that if the place was shut down for a few months and then finally the premises were sold to a new owner, who decided to open the same type of business, then the new owner wouldn't be obligated to rehire the old staff?

Because if that's the case, then that sounds to me like what happened here. The festival chain has been closed for months, has it not? Someone new bought the premises and started up business there after renovating the place.

Is there any statute of limitations on how long the place needs to be closed before being sold when it comes to whether they'll have to take on the old staff? What if it had been closed down for years, and then a new owner bought it and got it up and running again? Would that new owner be required to hire the old staff back if they were unionized?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12335

posted 20 December 2006 08:47 AM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
But in this case, it's not a different type of business. It was a movie theatre before, and it's a movie theatre now.

That might be part of the issue: how much similarity has to exist between the old and new businesses for it to count as the same "type" of business? If the old business was a porn movie theatre and my new business is a children's movie theatre, do I have to hire the same ushers? Do I have to hire the same manager? Are they the same type of business (both are movie theatres) or different? Perhaps there is some history of precedents dealing with this.

On a side point, I am not only interested in the legal issue but also the moral issue: I might be morally bound to the porn theatre employees without being legally bound to them.

At this point, I would be truly appreciative if someone could post links to relevant documents and labour laws concerning the legal issues.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452

posted 20 December 2006 10:23 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

...I am curious about continuity, though. farnival, were you saying that if the place was shut down for a few months and then finally the premises were sold to a new owner, who decided to open the same type of business, then the new owner wouldn't be obligated to rehire the old staff?...


collective agreements are typically between an employer (the business) and the bargaining unit (the employees represented by the union) and not physical locations or buildings, though Ontario law may have some odd provision i don't know about, but i doubt it.

so, michelle, to answer you question (and this is just my opinion mind you) if a business shut down, and a few months later a new one opened in the same spot, unless the new operators bought the business (licence, name, "goodwill" and client lists) i don't see how there is any continuity, so no you wouldn't likely be bound to anything previous.

all this is somewhat academic though. we are not privy here to the terms of sale that Theatre D agreed to, and if there were any existing labour agreements they had to respect, that would have been made quite clear during the negotiations to buy the place. To then abrogate those agreements is in fact breaking the law. The new owners would have known quite well what they were getting into or they have no business running a business. The bank lending them money would also know about any labour agreements that exist, as that would have to be included as a cost of operation.

Without knowing the details of the sale and the collective agreement in place, this appears to be a case of good, old fashioned, anti-union prejudice and ideology.

someone asked earlier why they would pay the new guy operating the camera more than the old one. well, perhaps they are by the hour, but does it include the same negotiated benefits package? the same negotiated overtime provisions? night differentials for shift work? I keep stressing the "negotiated" because contrary to rhetoric that does fly about, everything in a collective agreement is negotiated with the employer. they sign off on it. that means they agreed to it. if they didn't like something they should say so during bargaining. I have no sympathy for crybabies on either side of the table after the fact. from the labour side, if I don't get something in a negotiated contract the first try, i'll build a good case for it over the term of the contract and try again next round. there is no mystery or conspiracy to ruin the company here. remember, if the company folds, how do the employees (members) even get paid what they negotiated? well, they don't.

and if you purchase a business and it is bound by a collective agreement with the employees, you have to abide by it. that is just simple contract and labour law. to say you don't is just silly and playing childish games. do you think your bank would just say, ah well, you violated this or that part of your loan or mortgage terms, but hey, you're cool, don't worry about it. no. they would crack down pretty hard very quickly.

the paying more bit is interesting. in my experience, union hating management knows no finacial bounds to see their point through. it is pathalogical. years ago, i bargained a first contract for 2 years before applying for binding arbitration. all we asked for was the status quo before the owner started being a jerk. no pay increases, just pay and benefits we had before he arbitrarily cut them. The judge agreed with us without exception. He repremanded my boss quite sternly and said he had basically wasted the courts time with being stubborn and cheap. And for two years he only spoke through his lawyer, even when we were sitting two feet from each other! I said one day that with the amount he had paid his lawyer so far after two years, he could have paid for the entire contract twice over! The lawyer looked embarassed and my boss went mental and walked out. Well, the judge at the arbitration basically said the same thing to him and he looked quite foolish. In the end, he harboured a grudge for 10 years about it. all that money and stress for nothing.

What i learned as a young person in my early twenties, is never underestimate how juvenile adults in positions of power can be when they don't get their way, no matter how wrong they are.


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca