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Author Topic: London rocked by gay murder: killers photographed the act
Hephaestion
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posted 12 November 2004 09:05 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Killers photographed gay man's slaying

quote:
(London) As a gang beat, stomped and kicked a gay London man into unconsciousness one member recorded the entire incident using a camera equipped cellular phone.

*snip*

Police said that Morley's spleen was ruptured. He suffered fractured ribs and sustained more than 40 separate bruises. He died in hospital several hours later.

Five teenagers, including a 14-year-old girl, have been charged with his murder.


14-year-old-girl!!!

quote:
Livingstone told Thursday night's meeting that "broadly, London is a very tolerant city. There is much less racism, much less sexism than other great cities around the world. [But] when you go into our schools and colleges there is very little overt racism and sexism. There is completely open and rampant homophobia."

He said part of the reason for this was Section 28, which made it "illegal to have any discussion about homosexuality" in schools. The law has since been changed.


[emphasis mine]

Gawd... can North American schools and lawmakers learn something from this? Are they even listening? Do they care?

[ 12 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 12 November 2004 09:17 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Killers photographed gay man's slaying

Gawd... can North American schools and lawmakers learn something from this? Are they even listening? Do they care?


Don't know. Ken Livingstone cares, that's clear. And Londoners seem to actually like and respect him. And when their respected Lord Mayor points out the hideousness of this crime, that will have an impact.

As far as this country goes, it will vary from community to community. The high school I went to was pretty good in that regard. Others, not so much, from what I hear. And kids will vary in their attitudes depending on all sorts of things. But I think the trend is upward.

In dealing with any vitally important issue, be it human rights, the environment, or what have you, you have to look at overall trends as well as the immediate situation. And on this issue, things are getting better in much of the world. The fact that the law that Livingstone referred to had been repealed suggests to me a sign of human rights on the increase, not the decrease.

Unfortunately, one of the places where the trend is in the opposite direction is our nearest neighbour.

[ 11 May 2005: Message edited by: Agent 204 ]


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 13 November 2004 04:06 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Keenan:

Unfortunately, one of the places where the trend is in the opposite direction is our nearest neighbour.

[ 12 November 2004: Message edited by: Mike Keenan ]


Brantford, ON? Hamilton, ON?

OOOH, you must mean the state of New York?

...

(Yeah I know what you meant, I'm just irked at the generalizations about the USA and Ontario)


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Puetski Murder
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posted 13 November 2004 12:34 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the life of me I can't understand why people record their crimes. The crime iteself is heinous, but when would you watch the recording? And why would you want to?
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skdadl
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posted 13 November 2004 01:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Puetski Murder, that is an interesting question.

My answer isn't entirely coherent, but we've all wandered about this puzzle before, I'm sure, and suspected that there is a connection between the drive to commit the crime and the drive to record it, to watch it again and again. Bernardo, eg.

The recording is a second-level experience, a distanced mental re-processing of experience -- a turn of the screw. So is a violent crime like this one, and so is torture. Sudden, unrationalized violence is animal and immediate, but this crime was second-level, intellectualized. Only human beings can do this -- turn animal impulse into something even worse than the basic impulse by thinking about it, refining it, and enjoying that turn of the screw.

Violence is animal; sadism is human. It is a problem with our brains, with our capacity for self-consciousness and reflection. We find reflection pleasurable, and that often leads to our greatest glories. It also leads to our worst obscenities and crimes.


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remind
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posted 13 November 2004 02:19 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
30 or so years ago, when I went to high school in Sk (oh my how the years have flown, sigh), there was no teaching of intolerance towards any homosexuals. Indeed all those, who I now recognize as an adult, were most likely gay or lesbian, were regular members of the community and no one addressed their personal life. And this is in perhaps the most intolerant municipality in SK. For many years we had a fantastic "Miss" minister, and the community at large was devastated when she left for retirement.

Though, after I left, when the United Church allowed homosexuals to become clergy openly, a portion of the church split off and went to church every Sunday in the curling rink lounge. The irony of this astounds me still. Mainly I suppose, because the municipality is so intolerant towards alcohol. To this day, the only time a license for dispensing is given is for a special event and there is not 1 bar within the whole municipality. However, the community at large thought/thinks these intolerant of G&L peoples were/are ridiculous in their flouncing actions.

In my opinion, though there are some places in Canada that are intolerant enclaves, over all Canadians do not care what one's sexuality is. And others that have historically been intolerant are changing their views as gays and lesbians mainstream themselves. For example, I have been known to play some serious poker upon occasion. The sexism playing high stakes poker that I encountered was incredible, at first, and it lasted until I started taking all their money because of it.

Furthermore, their homophobia was worse. However, I have a very close lesbian friend and another gay friend who are extremely good poker players that started to come and play too. At first, some regular members of the club were very uncomfortable. But within a very short time, this disappeared. Now years later, the same used to be regular bigot members do not tolerate sexism or gender preference bigotry.

I guess what I am saying is, that it is incumbent upon us all, to bring these stupid divisive biases to the forefront, and challenge people in a non-threatening way, to open their hearts and minds. If we do so, continually and consciously, acceptance that sexual preferences between people are normal and nobody elses business will happen everywhere.

Also, I think actions like the ones Heph posts, bring awareness, to those who may not have been paying attention. Outrage against such acts of violence will push tolerance even further, as people become more vocal against the intolerant few.

quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

Gawd... can North American schools and lawmakers learn something from this? Are they even listening? Do they care?

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
exiled armadillo
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posted 13 November 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
... it is incumbent upon us all, to bring these stupid divisive biases to the forefront, and challenge people in a non-threatening way, to open their hearts and minds.

I totally agree with this. no one wants to hear that they are racist, or a bigot. no one!!! but if they allow enough time to get to know this "alien state" they can and often can overcome these biases. But it will not happen in an "in your face" manner which is why militant types gain so much opposition.

I think it is a difficult thing to address. being a member of the school planning committee in an area that went to the supreme court to have alternative lifestyle books banned from our classrooms I can attest that if you do it in a militant manner all you will get is a fight.


From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 13 November 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the story

quote:
[But] when you go into our schools and colleges there is very little overt racism and sexism. There is completely open and rampant homophobia."

He said part of the reason for this was Section 28, which made it "illegal to have any discussion about homosexuality" in schools.



quote:
Originally posted by exiled armadillo:
I think it is a difficult thing to address. being a member of the school planning committee in an area that went to the supreme court to have alternative lifestyle books banned from our classrooms I can attest that if you do it in a militant manner all you will get is a fight.

[Emphasis mine in both cases]

Okay, EA... I'm not being "militant" here... but can you not see a connection between these two quotes?

And secondly...(and this has ALWAYS been a *HUGE* complaint of mine)... can you define just what you mean by "alternative lifestyle"???


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
exiled armadillo
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posted 13 November 2004 04:47 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I see a total connection between the two. You can not become used to something if you are never exposed to it. I was very annoyed when it went to the supreme court because now we still don't have the books and it is still very much mired in bureaucratic process. even after all that money and expense and the supreme court voted that we were to have them, we still don't.

Some may not agree with me, but I wanted to circumvent all of that and just put them in the library so that any kid could have free access to them. I think making a huge issue out of it was counter productive, and may have done more damage.

I know some may not think much of me for this but I wanted to get around the biases by "just having them available". I thought that would be more natural, which is how I wanted kids to see the whole issue. but I guess that could be considered my own personal agenda.

On the other hand I totally disagreed that we should make an issue and allow the agenda of others to have the right to influence our kids in such a manner.

"Alternative lifestyles" are anything other than the "leave it to beaver" that the christian right would hold up as an ideal. even my being a single mother is considered an alternative lifestyle according to my ultra conservative fundamentalist christian sister (who has told me on occasion she is ashamed of me because of it), but what do I know?

One of the problems in my area is that there are very few of us parents who are actually involved in the school. so the ideas of us few actually hold sway over a large number of kids, in my case 5 or 6 or us make decisions to influence over 530 kids. its sad but the only time most parents have anything to do with the school is if a huge fuss is made (school uniforms, or books depicting gay or lesbian parents)

If my choice of words is bad, my appologies. I have a hard enough time with the learning curve of educating myself to make major decisions on the school planning board. and have historically been two to three years behind in politically correct word useage. mostly because I don't talk about these issues (or educate myself about them) and therefore don't have to worry abut what I am saying.


From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 13 November 2004 04:48 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Puetski Murder:
For the life of me I can't understand why people record their crimes. The crime iteself is heinous, but when would you watch the recording? And why would you want to?

It is indeed mind boggling. When I saw the pictures and footage from Abu Gharib, I kept thinking to myself: Okay, if they are going to carry out this abuse that is one thing, but really- how is it that there was nobody there smart enough to say "FUCK! STOP RECORDING THIS SHIT!"? Did it not occur to anyone that it might leak out to the press and cause immeasurable damage to their reputations?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
exiled armadillo
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posted 13 November 2004 05:09 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Did it not occur to anyone that it might leak out to the press and cause immeasurable damage to their reputations?

They likely wouldn't have seen it in that way. They were doing their jobs softening up the sub-humans as they were order to. If you saw the people you were there to kill as people, actual humans, you likely wouldn't be able to do it.

Our culture has done a very good job of alienating us from each other, then they wonder why depression is almost rampant.


From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 13 November 2004 05:46 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
EA

No probs. I thought at first you were saying that you had been arguing to keep the books *out* of the school. You weren't, and we're on the same side of the issue. Kewl.

You also see the same hypocrisy in the phrase "alternative lifestyles" that I do. Again, no probs. Kewl.

As my buddy Kyle says, "Religion is a chosen lifestyle. Being queer isn't. Religion is not "natural". Being queer is. How did we manage to get things so screwed up?"

As for your choice of words, EA, I have no problems with it. As the Great Man said:

"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between ones real and ones declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink."
George Orwell

Keep saying just what you mean, and screw the PC police.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
exiled armadillo
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posted 13 November 2004 05:56 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"Religion is a chosen lifestyle. Being queer isn't. Religion is not "natural". Being queer is. How did we manage to get things so screwed up?"

Very wise, I must say, and a damned good question. Since I rarely voice my oppinions on this matter, I don't know how people would react to my stance, (that it should be a natural thing).

I assume the fundies would freak out cause people like me would make these books available with no horns or fan fare. but at the same time I didn't want tghe issue to be forced by going to court because I knew little would come out of it.

By the way you can thank people like Randy White for the way things went.


From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 13 November 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not just Randy White. You can also thank the [CENSORED] [CENSORED] [CENSORED] who keep voting for the [CENSORED] [CENSORED].

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


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remind
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posted 14 November 2004 01:12 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agreed, in your face mannerisms do not always work, but in some cases it is the only way to make a point or force a change in operations.

There were a couple of real bad sexists at the poker club, which never seemed to get the point that I would not tolerate such crap from them, and they kept at it. Finally, I simply said: "look the next sexist remark I hear from either of you %*#@$ the table is going over, and I know exactly how much I have in front of me in chips, do you?" Well, needless to say, shortly the table went over, and over 30+k worth of chips went flying everywhere. That was the last sexist remark I heard at the club, and rules were posted against such comments with the perp being banned from the game.

In this case of the gay murder in London, perhaps the only way some people are going to understand how wrong intolerance is and how it leads to this type of action, is if there are loud and long protests and letter writing campaigns. If only to ensure this murder is not brushed off as a robbery gone wrong too.


quote:
Originally posted by exiled armadillo:
But it will not happen in an "in your face" manner which is why militant types gain so much opposition.


[ 14 November 2004: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 15 November 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If only to ensure this murder is not brushed off as a robbery gone wrong too.

And as a aside, how exactly DOES a murder in which the muurders state "we killed him cuz he was gay and came on to us" become a simple robbery gone wrong years later, as in the Matthew Shephard case?


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Hephaestion
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posted 15 November 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
And as a aside, how exactly DOES a murder in which the muurders state "we killed him cuz he was gay and came on to us" become a simple robbery gone wrong years later, as in the Matthew Shephard case?

Simple... how does "ties between Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein" become "weapons of mass destruction" become "building democracy"?

You just ignore everything that has gone before. When the majority of the public has demonstrated that they are willing dupes, what need does the administration or its propaganda organs have for logic or reason? Especially when you're dealing with a despised minority group one that even the mainstream muslim community spits on and reviles?

It's dead easy...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 15 November 2004 01:28 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the general rule is "say it over and over and over and over and over and..."

All it takes to make a meme is persistence.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
exiled armadillo
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posted 15 November 2004 01:41 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I think the general rule is "say it over and over and over and over and over and..."

And which is why we need to speak up when we hear such comments instead of keeping the "peace" and letting it slide by. That right there is to blame for my being an "uppity" recalcitrant female.

[ 15 November 2004: Message edited by: exiled armadillo ]


From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 15 November 2004 03:10 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree, EA, and I think that even includes when we hear kids saying ignorant stuff. I recently took issue with a young boy (about 10) who was going on about another boy being "gay" because he responded poorly to rough-housing and didn't want to "rassle" back.

I asked him point blank if he meant that the other boy was a homosexual. He turned beet red and said "no!" I informed him that I AM gay (it was funny to see his jaw drop open and his eyes get wide), and that I didn't appreciate his inferences.

I pointed out to him that not only did I know his dad, who is a friend of mine, but that I could, and recently had beaten his dad at arm wrestling. I also pointed out that his dad would not look kindly on his name calling, and that I didn't want to hear any more of it out of him.

He nodded vigourously (and the huuuuuuge smile that the bullied kid shot me made the whole exercise more than worthwhile.)


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Bacchus
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posted 15 November 2004 03:25 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Way to go Hep!!!!

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exiled armadillo
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posted 15 November 2004 04:09 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was one time, I was almost right in the middle of two men argueing when it degerated into name calling (in the staff room at work). Not liking either of them because they are total pricks, when they started calling each other "homos" I was able to reply "don't insult gay people" (I only come up with witty comments like this once a year) "you could only wish".

It was getting back in a small way I suppose for one of them ridiculing one of the gay people at work. Its people like that that really bring out my aggressive side (not like I need a reason for that though I suppose)


From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 15 November 2004 08:21 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Violence is animal; sadism is human.

skdadl--you have cats, right?
Where would you put "violence as play" on your scale? Or "intimidation as pastime"?
Is that stuff just violence, or is it sadism, or somewhere in between? Roundabout way of saying that I think we sometimes romanticize animals too much when we're depressed about human sin.


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August1991
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posted 16 November 2004 01:44 AM      Profile for August1991     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Haephestion, I was unaware of this until I saw your post. Make these events known.
From: Montreal | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 16 November 2004 03:04 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it's pretty important to confront this in a way that makes this sort of thing un-acceptable and revolting. But also the problem with homophobia is that it's too easy to hold because homosexuals have been de-humanized in a way. They are the 'other's' so to speak, not 'quite like us' and the 'strange' ones.

So I applaud your efforts with that kid Heph it's very important that people are shown that homosexuals just like other people are just people, nothing evil. When I was around 10 to 15 the word Gay was a huge insult, and it sounds like it still is. If you got tagged with it and you weren't gay it was a direct insult that just couldn't be left alone.

And the word was just bandied about like it was a synonym for stupid used in ways like "that's gay", "you're gay" and "X is gay". Yet so long as there was no one who was really gay no one thought about what it meant or anything. And no one thought about the fact that it was homophobic, even thought it clearly was (is), it was just said. And furthermore like all bullying things the people on the sidelines didn't want to intervene, because they didn't want to become targets. And targets didn't want to seem anything but revolted dare they be targeted with such a label. And the bullies didn't think too much about either.

I think that this is something that needs to be targeted in co-ordination with targeting bullying. In my experience it's easy to sit back and do nothing, easy to join in and it sucks to be the target. But nothing is really done. The problem is that it can lead to intolerance and de-humanization later on and this is what this case that Heph linked us too shows. Im not claiming that this is an excuse for these folks, but maybe attacking these two things will be good for all and will humanize homosexuals. Because if you never have interaction with a group its easy to not take them into consideration and just dismiss them.

[ 16 November 2004: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 17 November 2004 12:59 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with all of that, VK, and I think it not only starts st home, it also starts in the streets, the playground, the transit bus, the workplace, and so on.

Most people would never stand silent any more if they heard terms like "kike", "chink", "nigger" and so on, even from young kids. Yet many people allow homophobic slurs to pass without comment, even the use of the word "gay" in sneering tones, much as you outlined. And, as you said, most often it is used without even any real thought.

When we hear crap like that going on, we need to speak up. I have read other queers at 365gay.com expressing shame that they never spoke up in similar circumstances. Sometimes it was simply fear for their own safety; in other cases it was simply a matter of "not wanting to cause a scene" or "make waves". This is crap. We know it, and that's why we feel shame when we allow it to pass without comment.

That's why the garbage that went on at that Surrey School Board meeting needs to be condemned. The whole purpose of keeping books that speak openly and factually about gays and lesbians out of the hands of young kids is to stop kids from seeing gay people as "normal". We are supposed to be "weirdos" and "deviants" and any attempt to portray ourselves as "just folks" (especially to kids, the upcoming crop of potential bigots and "fag bashers") has to be quashed.

That's why that Surrey School Board meeting, where these "moral people" were spouting the same old filth and lies that queers are child molesters, queers spreading AIDS, and on and on and on need to be challenged. Staying silent in the face of this kind of crap is not an answer, and it leads to the kind of thing like what happened in London.

We've gotta take a stand, and the best long-term solution is to start with the kids, and show them that queers are just like them. And that's the "homosexual agenda" that so many of these bigots are terrified of. Simply that the next generation might turn out to be more accepting, and less closed-minded and hateful than them.

But it's more than so-called "big stuff" like same sex-marriage or even books in libraries. It even includes speaking up when you hear a bully calling other kids "gay"in that sneering tone.

One of the babblers here has/had a location line that reads something like, "the steady drop of water will wear away the strongest rock."

'tis true,'tis true. It's maddeningly slow, but it's permanent. And the people that come after me will hopefully benefit from our struggles today. I don't know if that little kid was actually gay or not, but even if he's straight, I think his world will be a better one if it's more tolerant, and "gay" becomes no more significant than "brown-eyed". Then everyone will benefit.

Even the bullies.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 17 November 2004 12:38 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*flipping through the library copy of "The Homosexual Agenda" *

Um Hep, Thats not what my copy says

*flip flip , "take over the world', flip flip "subject all to the sin of the sodomites" flip flip "making babblers honourary sodomites" flip flip*

Nope nothing about what you said. Was there a update and I missed it?
Hey this copy is signed by Fred Phelps


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Michelle
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posted 17 November 2004 12:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What? Tell me Fred isn't the Head Homosexual...say it ain't so!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 17 November 2004 12:41 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Personally I cant wait until this all goes away since any talk of homosexual rights, same sex marriage etc so never need to be talked about. It should be irrevelant to talk about and people show raise their eyebrows at anyone that mentions it and say "why are you talking about THAT?"

because it should be a given.

Theres a saying sex is like oxygen, its only important if your getting any

This stuff should be right there with that, though Im sure Im not expressing it correctly


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 09 November 2005 06:14 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Update. The Trial

quote:
A schoolgirl from South Norwood told a gay barman she was making a documentary on 'happy slapping' before she filmed him being kicked to death on her mobile phone, the Old Bailey heard.

Six youths, including the girl, laughed as they then watched the footage of David Morley's attack while the 37-year-old lay dying in hospital.

The girl, then aged 14 who cannot be identified for legal reasons, is said to have approached Mr Morley and his friend Alistair Whiteside as they sat on a bench on central London's South Bank on October 28 last year....
...
Her 17-year-old accomplice admitted starting a fight with Mr Whiteside while Mr Morley was attacked by other gang members.
...
The gang then went back to a block of flats in Kennington and watched the girl's video clips. The 17-year-old said: "At the time I thought it was funny."

He admitted he lied when he was interviewed by the police because "I didn't want to be involved in an incident where someone died."



From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 09 November 2005 06:41 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It will be interesting to see what the sentence(s) are... But I still go back to the same point:

quote:
That's why... these "moral people"... spouting the same old filth and lies that queers are child molesters, queers spreading AIDS, and on and on and on need to be challenged. Staying silent in the face of this kind of crap is not an answer, and it leads to the kind of thing like what happened in London.

We've gotta take a stand, and the best long-term solution is to start with the kids, and show them that queers are just like them. And that's the "homosexual agenda" that so many of these bigots are terrified of. Simply that the next generation might turn out to be more accepting, and less closed-minded and hateful than them.


It might be too late for these little thugs, but a start has to be made somewhere...

*sigh*

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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posted 09 November 2005 06:59 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This story makes me think of some of the more decrepit sites on the internet ("bum fights" and the like). Watch somebody die in a car crash! This guy gets beaten up! Look at what these stupid drunk people do! Watch two homeless people fight for food!

If anything, these kids just upped the ante on the sadistic kinds of entertainment already available. I mean, of course, going to an internet site with something sadistic happening and beating a man to death while filming it are wildly different actions...but I wonder if there isn't a kind of continuum of violence.

I sometimes wonder as well if people film their crimes not only for their own sadistic viewing pleasure, but also perhaps because they find it thrilling that they might be caught. That the world might see them. It's like a hunger for attention. We're stars in our own little f***ed up movie! Look at us! We're terribly funny!

In this case, it was fueled by homophobia, but I think there is also, to some degree, a relationship between the sadistic pleasure these kids might have taken in watching this kind of thing...and the pleasure they seemed to take in actually committing the violence and filming it. An adrenalyn rush? Some kind of psycopathic catharsis?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 25 November 2005 10:47 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uhhh... I didn't kill 'im; I was whalin' on the OTHER guy

quote:
An 18 year old male, another of the six charged in the killing, told the court last week that he and the others regularly went out to gay bash.Darren Case admitted to taking part in at least 20 attacks, but he said he did not participate in killing Morley because he was beating Whiteside at the time.

The others charged in the slaying have pleaded not guilty.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 25 November 2005 11:02 AM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Puetski Murder:
For the life of me I can't understand why people record their crimes. The crime iteself is heinous, but when would you watch the recording? And why would you want to?


Bragging rights.... "Look what we did we are so tough, and not at all queer."
Life in Prison might make the little darlings a tad more Liberal!!!!


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 25 November 2005 11:11 AM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:

And as a aside, how exactly DOES a murder in which the muurders state "we killed him cuz he was gay and came on to us" become a simple robbery gone wrong years later, as in the Matthew Shephard case?



Most killers have to rationalise what they have done to move the burden of what they have done, from their own shoulders to that of the victim. Living with what they did to Matthew Shepard, the killers who I understand were pretty screwed up when they did it, have had to reason out why they did it. It becomes much more palatable to their own minds if it was a robbery than just simply we got fucked up and beat this poor kid to death cause he was a fag. It also becomes more palatable to the parole people.


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 25 November 2005 11:15 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
... like they'll *get* life in prison. More likely a scolding, going by other sentences in England for killing a queer.
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 25 November 2005 11:26 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ichy Smith:
Most killers have to rationalise what they have done to move the burden of what they have done, from their own shoulders to that of the victim. Living with what they did to Matthew Shepard, the killers who I understand were pretty screwed up when they did it, have had to reason out why they did it. It becomes much more palatable to their own minds if it was a robbery than just simply we got fucked up and beat this poor kid to death cause he was a fag. It also becomes more palatable to the parole people.

It was only a "robbery" in the sense that they brutally robbed an innocent man of his life.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 25 November 2005 11:32 AM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
... like they'll *get* life in prison. More likely a scolding, going by other sentences in England for killing a queer.

Well, I still think the only way to make any headway is to attack the right of Churches to gove tax receipts for donations, and to make a move to force Churches to pay their property tax.
At one time Churches did a lot of Social Work, but now we have social workers. It is time donations to churches were not elegible for a tax deduction. If Churches had more money problems they might start attending to their own business. We also need some gay people to start suing Churches over preaching hatred.

I let the Local AIDS committee know today that I am ending our donations to that committee. They are having another "Memorial Service" in a Catholic Church tonight, and because of the Catholic Churches stand on Gay's I believe they are validating the Churches stand. Until today it was one of the few charities I donated to, and I have asked my family to stop their donations as well.


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 25 November 2005 05:40 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ichy Smith:


Most killers have to rationalise what they have done to move the burden of what they have done, from their own shoulders to that of the victim. Living with what they did to Matthew Shepard, the killers who I understand were pretty screwed up when they did it, have had to reason out why they did it. It becomes much more palatable to their own minds if it was a robbery than just simply we got fucked up and beat this poor kid to death cause he was a fag.


I don't buy it. I see no evidence that these creatures experience remorse, or guilt, or even so much as a tinge of dismay-- unless there's a judge looking at them.

If they want to prove how difficult it is to live with what they've done... Here, boy. That's a rope. Tonight in your cell, you can do the right thing.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 25 November 2005 06:58 PM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tape_342:

I don't buy it. I see no evidence that these creatures experience remorse, or guilt, or even so much as a tinge of dismay-- unless there's a judge looking at them.

If they want to prove how difficult it is to live with what they've done... Here, boy. That's a rope. Tonight in your cell, you can do the right thing.



I am sorry I don't remember saying anything about "remorse, or guilt, or even so much as a tinge of dismay" I said in their own minds they have to justify what they did. Often people who committ acts of violence blame the victim. They simply find it hard to work around in their own minds.....


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Sven
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posted 26 November 2005 02:43 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tape_342:
If they want to prove how difficult it is to live with what they've done... Here, boy. That's a rope. Tonight in your cell, you can do the right thing.

That...or the death penalty...would be too easy on them. They need to rot in prison.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 26 November 2005 06:23 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
That...or the death penalty...would be too easy on them. They need to rot in prison.

I know, I know... and intellectually I can see that; I even believe that.

But, viscerally, well... the counsel of 'the better angels of my nature' is becoming less convincing as the gay bodies pile up.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 14 December 2005 05:33 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Update-- It's Not Murder.
Guardian:
quote:
A teenage girl and three men were today convicted of killing the bar manager David Morley during a "happy slapping" spree of "random, indiscriminate and terrifying" violence.

A jury at the Old Bailey, in London, found the four guilty of manslaughter, not guilty of murder.
...
Two others - Barry Lee, 20, and another 17-year-old - were cleared of all charges.


By rights, there should be riots tonight in London. If what they did was not murder WTF is?!

[ 14 December 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 14 December 2005 05:47 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe they "didn't mean to".

That seems to be the legal definition of manslaughter: you murder someone, then you cry a little and say you never meant to. Or say you were drunk and couldn't form the intent. Or say it occured to you in the "heat of the moment" and hope nobody notices that it took you 10 minutes of good hard beating to actually kill the person. Which you didn't mean to do. Because you were drunk.

I think that to the average person British, Canadian or otherwise if you intentionally kill someone, or you do something intentionally which could kill someone and they die, that's murder. If the courts agreed, I think people would have a bit more faith in them.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 14 December 2005 07:11 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So, I come back to take a boo, and what do I spot right off? This. Well, it CLEARLY wasn't a homophobic attack, eh? The Guardian, the Beeb and the prosecutor all agree, so it MUST be so, eh? Funny that the only one they killed was the queer.

Hmmm. I see how it works. Maybe I'll just go out and beat a few straights to death, just make sure I get drunk first, and say I was looking for peeping toms, or bird-watchers, or some other cockamamie bullshit. The courts will obviously swallow any kind of crap.

Oh, but wait, it's 'only a few bad apples', right? It's NEVER the entire, rotten, fucked up, miserable, misbegotten, pious, hypocritical fucking SOCIETY, is it?!

The difference between Tehran and London, between Kingston and Vancouver seems to simply be that at least the Jamaicans and the Iranians are honest about their hatred.

I am gone again.

SLAM!

[ 14 December 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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