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Author Topic: Hillary Clinton Sexism Watch
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 03 March 2008 06:12 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was just doing some research for work about the sexism Clinton's been facing and thought it would be interesting to have a thread devoted to simply recording articles about and incidents of sexism during Clinton's campaign.

This thread is not about who you support in the primaries. In fact, I support Obama, and I know lots of other babblers too. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is also not about whether it's harder to be a black man or a white woman.

This thread is simply about recording and discussing the sexism Clinton's been facing during her campaign.

Some interesting stuff I've found:

Rhymes with "rich"

quote:
In the most recent Pew Research Poll, eleven out of 629 people, when asked for one word that describes Hillary Clinton said "rhymes with rich." Sixteen found her untrustworthy and six each said, "dislike her," "power hungry," "selfish/self-centered." When it comes to denigrating Clinton, one word is rarely enough.

Of the two men and one woman the Pew respondents were describing, only one was called "ambitious," although they're all running for the same office, and it's not McCain's first time. Guess who got the "ambitious," tag? What are McCain and Obama? Apathetic? Lazy? Unmotivated? No, they're men. They're ambition is expected, taken for granted, applauded and unremarkable.

Of the two men and one woman, only one was called "power hungry." Yep, Clinton again. She's called power hungry, but both Obama and McCain are called "leaders." No "leader" word given for Clinton, because, well women aren't thought of as leaders. When we try for the leader brass ring we're called "power hungry."

What will Clinton do with all that power she's starving for? She'll be "manipulative" and "overbearing."


The Double Standard

quote:
The media coverage of the Clinton campaign will be, for years to come, a textbook case of how the coverage of female candidates differs from that of males. Women have to walk a very thin line when they run for high office. On the one hand, they have to appear tough, nothing at all like a sniveling female, and when they do talk tough, they are called "shrill."

Hillary sexism watch: Bill Maher edition

quote:
Bill Maher: I’m not trying to be sexist here, but I’m just saying that women try a lot of different tacks when they’re in arguments.

Harry Shearer: Do you remember the website in the 90s , where it was all her different hairstyles?

Maher: Well, hairstyles.

Harry Shearer: Yes, but now there’s going to be a website with all her different personalities.

Maher: Well, we made a montage, actually. Just to show you that, just — I’m not being sexist — I’m just saying that men, when we argue, we’re kind of a one-trick pony, we try our one thing, and then we —

Shearer: We yell.

Maher: And then we sulk when we don’t get our way.

[Plays a clip of Hillary, misty-eyed at a campaign event]

Maher: But look at Hillary Clinton. Because the first thing a woman does, of course, is cry. [Affecting a dramatic, teary voice] “I just want to be happy. Why can’t you just love me?”

Maher: And then they go to sweet talking.

[Plays a clip of Hillary complimenting Obama at a recent debate]

Maher: “You’re the best thing that ever happened to me! And you look so handsome in that tie!”

[Plays a clip of Hillary saying “shame on you” about Obama’s “Harry and Louise” brochure]

Maher: And then they throw an anger fit totally unrelated to anything. “Stay home and watch the game. See if I care.”

[Plays a clip of Hillary mocking Obama’s soaring rhetoric]

Maher: And when it doesn’t work, they bring out the sarcasm. “Oh, I’m just a woman, I couldn’t possibly understand the issues like you could.” Don’t write me, please ladies, don’t write me.

Christopher Hitchens: And then if you say “whine, whine, whine,” they say that’s sexist.



From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 03 March 2008 07:05 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is an excerpt from an LA Timesarticle:
quote:
(...)The advisor, retired Gen. Merrill A. "Tony" McPeak, said in a telephone interview that Obama has "real gravitas, not artificially created, focus-grouped, poll-directed, rehearsed gravitas."
He also said Obama "doesn't go on television and have crying fits; he isn't discovering his voice at the age of 60" -- references to Clinton's much-publicized show of emotion during the New Hampshire primary campaign and her speech after winning the contest in which she declared that she had "found my voice."

The Obama camp did distance themselves from this comment at the time, but the Obama camp is now running the following ad.

It has the same idiot Gen. McPeak in it advocating for Sen. Obama.


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 03 March 2008 12:08 PM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, take a listen to the latest edition of The Sunday Edition with Michael Enright.

He starts off his show with a brief, but example-heavy, audio essay on the sexism that Hillary is facing.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 03 March 2008 03:21 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jrose:
Michelle, take a listen to the latest edition of The Sunday Edition with Michael Enright.

quote:
One commentator called her an "uppity woman," an accusation that, had he levelled it at Senator Obama, would have meant the end of his television career.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 04 March 2008 03:23 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As is usual with these commentaries, Michael Enright's did not only note the sexism out there.

I don't have the wording at hand, but we referred to an LATimes study of some sort where Clinton beats MCCain on issues, and Obama does not beat McCain, yet Dems are choosing Obama anyway.

Which is supposed to be more evidence of sexism.

Ony one problem. Presumably some individual pundit did say Clinton outdoes Obama against McCain, but all the polling indicates the opposite.

No one should bow down before that, but it is disengenuous at best to try to argue that Democrats vote against Clinton even though she is 'obviuiously' the superior candidate.

There are some defenders of Clinton who do not stoop to this nonsense- Bob Herbert of the NYTimes comes to mind- but most people who head down this road [and I think everyone around Babble] will drag in anything as 'evidence'.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 04 March 2008 03:36 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I mean really, how is this suppossed to be a surprise.

Races for president bring out tons of trash talk.

Sexism is rife in the culture.

Sexist digs at 'uppity women' are fair game in the popular culture.

This is surprising?

It is certainly a good opportunity to point it out.

But to argue that the fact Clinton is losing 'despite everything she has' is just whining crap.

A lot of those suppossed assets of hers- which are not linked at all to the 'bitch' and 'ice lady' images- people reacting negatively to the content, such as it is, of those presumed 'assets'.

There is a dotted line between the pre-campaign Clinton stature as THE candidate; to the present, where those suppossedly unimpeachable 'assets' she has, are rejectec by the unwashed, which is in turn argued to be evidence of their sexism.

[ 04 March 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 March 2008 03:40 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi, if you're just dropping by the feminism forum to tell us in multiple posts that discussions of the sexism Clinton is facing is "whining crap" and that babblers are unreasonable and "drag in anything" as evidence of sexism, then maybe just don't bother posting here, okay?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 04 March 2008 03:51 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, maybe I should.

But I was making specific reference to what Michal Enright's essay.

Granted, no one specifically referred to that part of Michael Enright's essay- so if I was to bring it up at all I should have kept it to to a simple statement that Enright's essay was an example of stretching things to the point of arguing that but for sexism Clinton would be winning.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 04 March 2008 04:56 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Headlines have been taking an end-of corrida quality, with obituary metaphors being printed fast and furious about Clinton, for example:
Hillary will never say die, but Tuesday could be her last gasp (The Observer, UK)
Compare this with the discreet, respectful treatment Romney got when McCain edged ahead...

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 04 March 2008 06:45 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is part of the problem with using the Clinton campaign as an example of displays and manifestatios of sexism in the culture.

The kind of examples Michelle posted are clear cut, and they are legion in their own right.

The kind Martin tends to post, he makes the case are less direct manifestations. And so they might be.

But they also tend to point to circumstances where what happens to this particular candidate is not all unique or necessarily related to her being a woman.

Clinton made the choice to wrap and package herself as the inevitable candidate- the candidate with it all, to whom no one else really compared.

Male or female, such figures get especially melodramatic attention if they fall. Whatever people think of Mitt Romney, he was never that kind of candidate.

Most Canadians now watching this did not get exposed to how Clinton chose to portray herself last year. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I know that giving attention to the pervasiveness of sexism is an uphill battle at the best of times. Trying to do it in the middle of a partisan battle is really hazardous boulder rolling.

There is a reason that the argument is now getting slagged even by people who normally support it strongly. It's not like there is no reason to see a certain taint to the argument.

[ 04 March 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 March 2008 06:48 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see how Clinton "made the choice" to package herself as the inevitable candidate. She was portrayed that way and of course she went with it.

Wouldn't anyone? Doesn't everyone try to package themselves as "the inevitable candidate"?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 04 March 2008 07:07 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can understand you would see it the way Michelle- and there is certainly some general truth to what you say.

But you wouldn't say it if you were an activist in the US.

I'm not arguing that its some kind of chracter flaw of Clinton's. And it made strategic sense for her.

I'm just saying that it is a choice she made, and one of the inevitable consequences is that if it doesn't work, the fall from grace is going to be harder than it is for someone like Mitt Romney.

And all of this is examplary of the problem of disentangling what is going on.

There is no question that the bulk of the left in the Democratic party is glad to see Hillary Clinton fall.

There is an assumption made that this is rooted in essentially the same relishing the right wing media takes in watching her fall.

The assumption is not only potentially ungrounded, there is an inherent problem that the people pointing it out have a partisan interest in doing so.

Mind you, I'll readily admitt that this gets really post-modernist when we look at whay this debate happens in Canada.

Even when you make allowances a lot of us can get partisan about things we aren't involved in, there has to be something different going on her.

And I wouldn't be surprised that if you scratch the surface a bit you'll find the discussion here in Canda is an indirect manifestation of the many ways people relate to feminism.

IE, strip away Hillary Clinton, and reframe the questions in a general way... and you'll be able to predict where people are going to line up.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 04 March 2008 07:55 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This clip was added today at Feministing:


From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 04 March 2008 08:58 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A little something for the ladies
by Joel Stein, LA Times, Feb. 29
quote:
You know how ladies, when they don't get what they want, can go a little crazy? Am I right, fellas? Right now, they're pretty upset about losing their first chance at a female president. This would have empowered little girls, shattered sexist beliefs about female incompetence and forced men around the world to view a woman as an agent of power instead of a sex object -- all of which, it turns out, are important to women even though they buy Star magazine. Ladies are complicated.

Because women do most of the voting, and the shopping and the TV watching and the book reading -- porn really must take up a lot of men's time -- they need to be placated. Which shouldn't be hard. You know how when your dog dies, your wife wants to get a puppy right away? That's what America has to do. We need a replacement Hillary.

Because while women are sad that Hillary Clinton seems poised to lose the Democratic nomination, they're even more dejected that there appear to be no women with enough political stature to run for president next time. That's why Barack Obama and John McCain need to pick female running mates. Either that or we're going to have to find some money in the federal budget for 150 million flower bouquets.(...)(and on and on, ad nauseam)



From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 04 March 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hear, hear, after "scratching the surface a bit' KenS legitimizes Hillary-bashing as really being antifeminism (but hey, what's wrong with that?)
quote:
(...)I wouldn't be surprised that if you scratch the surface a bit you'll find the discussion here in Canda is an indirect manifestation of the many ways people relate to feminism.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 March 2008 09:23 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For those who can't access it and don't want to create an account with the LA Times, you can sign in using this:

[email protected]
babblers


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 March 2008 09:26 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW, I get the feeling that was supposed to be satire, Martin.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 04 March 2008 09:56 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's vague enough to get sexist yuks IMO, hitting all the 'right' notes. Satire at the expense of an opprerssed group generally adds to its burden. (I know that U.S. feminists are hopping mad about this article, if that is any indication.)
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 04 March 2008 10:01 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Martin, I'll invite you to either withdraw how you have used my words in the post above, or explain the steps with you came to the conclusions you did.

Then again- the latter is guaranteed to lead to thread drift, so maybe it's best we don't go there.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 04 March 2008 10:41 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think this has to take us very far from the thread topic. Whenever I have posted articles about sexist bias against Clinton outside of Babble, you have raised the straw man that babblers weren't attacking Clinton on a gender basis but because of her stands on issues, etc. (you never went into much detail, just denied that it was sexism). Now you acknowledge that not only does the Democratic Left have it in for her in the U.S. but that, in Canada, Hillary-bashing is an "indirect manifestation of the many ways people relate to feminism". Yessss! That was the point of most of the articles I reposted here, and I am glad to see you come around, sort of.
But since I imagine your opposition to Clinton remains unabated, I am deducting that you are including yourself in your assessment of Canadian Leftist opponents, i.e. that opposition to Clinton describes the way you yourself "relate" to feminism.
ETA: This may be a mischaracterization, and I apologize if you are, in fact, profeminist yourself.

[ 04 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 04 March 2008 11:57 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One last remark: observers of the Quebec scene may be reminded of similar dynamics in the Marois v. Boisclair PQ leadership race a few years back: Charismatic Male Youth as Hope for Change v. Older Female, Derided for her Looks and Associated with the Establishment & the Past... Obama & Boisclair even share an acknowledged link to cocaine use.
In Marois' case as in Clinton's, the female candidate experienced extreme pressure from former allies and the media to gracefully bow out and 'let through' the young inexperienced candidate from a political minority (Boisclair was gay). If Obama gets the nod, let's hope he doesn't crumple as Boisclair did.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 March 2008 11:59 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh for heaven sakes, guys, can you maybe save the Rambo routine for some other forum?

Martin, I also think you've mischaracterized KenS's posts above. I wasn't thrilled by them either, as you can see, but there's no reason to raise the stakes to the point where you're claiming that he's okay with anti-feminism and posting a bunch of armchair psychoanalyses about him. I was going to mention it and got distracted by something else and forgot.

And KenS, hopefully you can just drop it at this point now that it's been acknowledged instead of carrying this on in the feminism forum. Perhaps next time instead of just talking about how you shouldn't "go there" and then going there anyhow if it's going to cause thread drift in the feminism forum, you should just refrain from "going there" at all, and notify a moderator if you feel someone has attacked you. Thanks.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 04 March 2008 12:40 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It's vague enough to get sexist yuks IMO, hitting all the 'right' notes. Satire at the expense of an oppressed group generally adds to its burden.

Not only do I agree with Michelle that this is obvious satire, but I actually think that it is "at the expense of" those who are throwing sexist bullshit at Hillary Clinton. That is, unless you think that Swift actually wanted to eat children.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 04 March 2008 01:06 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Joel Stein gets digs in at the worst sexists, yes that's true, but I think he is also seriously proposing that a female running mate be considered to assuage Clinton fans' sensitivities, whereas Swift's modest proposal wasn't at all plausible. So it isn't all satire... unless you believe that no male USian can relate to describing women as "the ladies".

[ 04 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 04 March 2008 01:19 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd support Obama over Clinton but the sexism she's facing is pretty unbelievable. Especially when contrasted with the racism Obama's encountering - or not encountering.

For example, bumperstcikers that say this:

Or this:

Or t-shirts that say this:

Or web-graphics that say this:

Or "gag" gifts like this:

We kind of just ignore all of this stuff as noise.

Contrast that with the genuine outrage - from all corners - when Obama's ethnic or racial background is brought up.


From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Mercy
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posted 06 March 2008 03:07 PM      Profile for Mercy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just to bump this thread...

Thoughts on Tina Fey's attempt to reclaim the b-word?
Watch it here.

Some pundits claim this helped Hillary win in Texas and Ohio.


From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 March 2008 04:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Martin posted it in another thread. I thought it was hilarious.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 06 March 2008 08:07 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A post on DailyKos
I don't think anybody would mind me reposting it here. It's not exactly copyrighted.

Ms. Clinton, you are not a victim--nor are you a champion of beleaguered women's rights.

When you jumped ahead of far more deserving women like Barbara Boxer to run for president, simply on the basis of having been First Lady, you were not a victim, but rather a setback for the millions of deserving women who make their way on their own names rather than those of their husbands.

When you and your husband claimed that the entire Lewinsky scandal was the product of a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, you were not victims.

When you and your husband created a crack team to tamp down any bimbo eruptions and silence Bill's former girlfriends, you were not victims--and certainly not champions of oppressed women.

When you crushed the hopes and dreams of millions of Americans--including a large number of minority women--with welfare "reform" and neoliberal trade policies just to secure a few more white conservative and corporatist votes, you were not victims.

When you and your husband helped create and chair the most effective group in destroying the Democratic Party from within, all to ensure the election and influence of more southern, white, conservative men in the Democratic Party, you were neither victims nor champions of the oppressed in America.

When you elbowed out other deserving Democrats to run for New York Senate despite not being from New York, and used your influence with your husband to trade four corrupt pardons for votes in a community where women are to be unseen and unheard, you were not a victim, nor a proponent of women's rights in chauvinist, fundamentalist communities.

When you chose to use your position of influence within the Democratic Party to vote to allow Bush to send thousands of young women and men to die in the sands of Iraq and create widows and orphans of countless Iraqi mothers and children, simply so that you could look "tougher" on national security, you were not a victim.

When you inexplicably voted for Kyl-Lieberman to allow Dick Cheney to create even more widows and orphans by bombing Iran, you were not a victim.

When you spent much of the rest of your time as Senator censoring videogames and sponsoring flag-burning amendments, you were not a victim.

When you used your name recognition as First Lady and wide variety of favors owed you and your husband to take the Democratic Establishment and jump to 30-point national poll leads early in this nominating contest, you were not a victim.

When you took advantage of anti-African-American sentiment in the Hispanic community to "earn" vast percentages of their votes in spite of you and your husband's having done almost nothing substantive for their communities and allowing Bush to rack up between 39% to 44% of the Hispanic vote in 2004, you were not a victim.

When you and your husband did everything in your power to make Obama the Jesse Jackson candidate, you were neither victims nor advocates of the oppressed in the United States of America.

When Fortune magazine said that business loves you, you were not a victim, but a corporate insider.

When you hired the biggest union-busting asshole this side of the Democratic Party to run your campaign and its message, you were not a victim.

When you used the corrupt Nevada machine to cheat and suppress votes in over 1600 instances in the Nevada caucuses, you were not a victim.

When you doctored Obama's face to make his skin darker and his nose wider in an attack ad, you were not a victim.

When you used a kitchen sink strategy to trash Obama in any way possible even as he ran a high-ground campaign, no matter the cost to the Democratic Party, you were not a victim.

When you endorsed the misogynist-backed, warmongering Republican nominee over Obama based on the distorted notion that you both have more "experience", you were neither a victim nor a friend to women.

When you used fearmongering tactics in the worst tradition of political advertisements, you were not a victim.

When you not only supported the death of the American Rust Belt with NAFTA, but then attempted to say were against it even as you took credit for all the other events of your husband's presidency, then assured the Canadians that you really did love NAFTA after all, and then lied and accused the Obama campaign of having done what you did, you were not a victim, but a lying, disgusting cheat.

When you used fearmongering and potentially racist coding by accusing your opponent of not having been "vetted", in spite of your campaign having raked him over the coals for anything and everything you could, you were not a victim.

When you reserve the right to overturn the will of the majority of voters and pledged delegates to steal the nomination with insider superdelegates, you are not a victim.

And now that you are lying by saying that you're just too busy to release your tax records before April 15, all while claiming that your opponent isn't sufficiently vetted, you are NOT a victim.

You and your husband are masters of making vicious attacks and engaging in scurrilous behavior, all while painting yourselves as victims of an anti-Clinton bias or even conspiracy. You are not victims; you are perpetrators. You are not advocates for the battered and under-represented; you are the batterers. You are not the ones standing up for the oppressed; you are the oppressors.

And if you do manage to steal this nomination from a campaign of Hope that will almost assuredly have more pledged delegates and votes by the time it's all over, no one will fall for your claims of victimization when all the mistakes you made during the primary campaign get repeated in a disastrous campaign against John McCain. Many of us Democrats fell for your victim line during the 90s; we will not do so again.

It is high time that you suffered the slings and arrows of the same abusive tactics that you yourselves have been the masters of. And this time, no one will be crying for you but yourselves.

The hyperlinked version is available here:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/6/151730/0689/218/470663


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 March 2008 03:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Adam T, thanks for posting this example of people denying all the sexism Clinton is experiencing, complete with comments about what a bitch Clinton is by some of the resident misogynists at Daily Kos. That's the spirit!

Actually, there are quite a few points in that screed that I agree with, which is why I would rather see Obama win the nomination (not that I'm under any illusions that Obama is any more "oppressed" than "oppressor"). But just the fact that this person is denying any and all sexism that Clinton is facing is sexist if you ask me. You can not like Clinton and still be able to see where she is being attacked by the media, by Republicans, and by some fellow Democrats in sexist ways.

Ah, Daily Kos. Home of the sexist attack against any woman who has the nerve to speak the truth, whether about sexism they've experienced or against war.

The place where you can read about how it's no big deal when female bloggers get death threats and are hounded off the internet. The place where activists like Cindy Sheehan get torn to pieces with sexist attacks.

Yes, that's an excellent nomination for this thread, Adam T. Thanks!

[ 08 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 08 March 2008 03:52 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What's sexist about it? The only problematic point I see is the allegation that she moved ahead of more "deserving" women. If that's sexist, so be it. The point is, that Hillary Clinton started this campaign on third base. And thinks she hit a triple.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
rural - Francesca
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posted 08 March 2008 03:57 AM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But I thought this was about the "treatment" of Hilliary and the onslaught of sexism directed at her - not about Hilliary the person.

You don't have to like or respect someone, to treat them with basic human dignity and attack them on the single point of her exhistance she has no control over - her gender.

Attack her for her polices, her history, her choices, don't attack her because she wears pants.


From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 08 March 2008 04:01 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Obama aide quits after calling Clinton "monster"

quote:
An adviser to Barack Obama has resigned after a Scottish newspaper quoted her calling rival US Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton "a monster".

Samantha Power has expressed "deep regret" over the comments and said she had tried to retract them.

The Scotsman newspaper quoted Ms Power as saying: "She is a monster, too - that is off the record - she is stooping to anything."


My theory is that the real reason she was fired is this:

quote:
Ms Power said the Illinois senator's position that he would withdraw all troops within 16 months was a "best-case scenario" that he would revisit if he became president.

From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 March 2008 04:01 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
What's sexist about it? The only problematic point I see is the allegation that she moved ahead of more "deserving" women. If that's sexist, so be it. The point is, that Hillary Clinton started this campaign on third base. And thinks she hit a triple.

Read my edits.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 March 2008 04:04 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whoa. That's a good way for a journalist to burn all their bridges, by publishing "off-the-record" remarks from an interview. They won't get the time of day from Obama or his staff again, I'm sure.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 08 March 2008 04:10 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Problem was she said "off the record" after the remark. Which gave this "journalist" the thin reed to publish it. He should be considered a pariah now in political circles.
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Michelle
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posted 08 March 2008 04:15 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup. I hope it was worth it!

Anyhow, back to examples of sexism against Hillary...


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 March 2008 04:35 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An older article from NOW:

Hillary Clinton and the Media: From Intelligent and Fair to Appallingly Sexist and Pointless

quote:
Clinton is no stranger to this kind of treatment from the press. An opinion article in The Oklahoman referenced her "frequent wearing of dark pants suits to conceal her bottom-heavy figure." Political cartoonist Nick Anderson created an animated cartoon which ran on the Houston Chronicle website featuring a curvaceous Clinton being asked, in the words of a popular song, "What you gonna do with all that junk? All that junk inside your trunk?" Without the accompanying drawing, one could have assumed that Anderson was referring personal baggage, but the cartoon made clear that he was also making a sly dig at her shape. When was the last time an opinion piece or cartoon commented on a male candidate's figure?

Adding insult to injury, The New York Times published a Maureen Dowd piece (titled "Mama Hugs Iowa") on Jan. 31 charging that as First Lady, Clinton showed off "a long parade of unflattering outfits and unnervingly changing hairdos." So we not only have to hear about what she's wearing today, but what she wore (and how she styled her hair) in 1992. On Feb. 9, Reuters news agency reported fashion designer Donatella Versace's advice that "Hillary Clinton should tap into her feminine side and wear dresses and skirts instead of trousers."

A Florida paper, the Sun-Sentinel, chimed in on Feb. 16 with an article by Jura Koncius about Rosemarie Howe, Clinton's interior designer, and how she helped the Senator decorate her Embassy Row house in a "comfortable yet elegant" scheme of "camel and coral."

Fuentes' USA Today op-ed provided a much-needed reality check, pointing out that "Women in government stand out because of their strength, intellect, and ideas — not because of their hemlines. Yet here we are in 2007 still treating powerful women like a novelty." She expressed justifiable concern that "focusing on the clothing choices of serious female political players risks rendering them less than serious," something these reporters and editors know all too well.


Also, a good pointer on how to address Clinton when talking about her:

quote:
In a Feb. 14 Seattle Post-Intelligencer column, Susan Paynter notes that the language used to discuss and refer to a candidate can affect public perception. Of recent modes of addressing Clinton, she suggests "for title, try Senator, not Mrs. or Mama."

[ 08 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 08 March 2008 07:07 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Political cartoons are one good indicator of stereotypes that sell in the definition of Clinton, Obama & McCain.

Daryl Cagle is a cartoonist who maintains an impressive portal of political cartoons from around the U.S. and the world. It is interesting to see what various U.S. cartoonists hold against Clinton, basically her husband, BOTH described as an unfair campaign advantage on the hustings and a liability as a womanizer with a negative legacy, depending on editors' fancy. Either way, Hillary Clinton is reduced to an appendage of Bill.

Physical characterizations of Obama and Clinton are also telling, with Obama almost always given the allure of a thin, threatened smiling underdog (with big ears) while Clinton gets the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink unfavourable characterizations.


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Adam T
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posted 08 March 2008 01:56 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that is what her campaign is trying to spin, that every criticism of her or any scrutiny she is facing is sexist.

It doesn't work on me. There are sexist jerks everywhere, and no doubt she's faced some of that, but if anybody tries to say that all legitimate scrutiny of her is sexism, I just yawn.


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Michelle
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posted 08 March 2008 03:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And it's SO GREAT that you've decided to come and yawn here in the feminism forum.

I don't know about anyone else, but I feel really blessed by your expression of boredom. I feel like I really learned something from your yawn in a thread where we're trying to document real examples of sexism against Clinton.

So thank-you for contributing so thoughtfully and helpfully to this thread, in this forum. Thank-you for teaching us what is sexism and what isn't. It's much appreciated.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 08 March 2008 04:17 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's fine.

In a country with 300 million people like the United States it's natural there are going to be a whole bunch of sexist jerks.

However, that does not mean that all the criticism against her is sexist or that she can hide behind that to avoid criticism.

Given that you seem to have fallen into the camp, that every criticism she's received is based on sexism, I'd hardly say that you're a credible judge of what is and what isn't sexism either.


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Michelle
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posted 08 March 2008 04:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have not fallen into that camp. If you would read the title of the thread and the opening post (did you bother to do that before coming in here and exercising your jaw muscles with your yawns?) you'd see that I support Obama, for many of the reasons listed in that first post you made.

But THIS thread is to document the ACTUAL sexism she's facing. Like all the examples we've been posting here. Like the fact that the person who wrote that post of yours is claiming she's not facing ANY sexism and that any she is facing is deserved. Like the comments below the post at your link calling her a bitch.

And like you coming into this thread in the feminism forum, posting your disdain and yawning all over the place, and trying to change the subject to all the reasons you hate Hillary Clinton, and accusing us of making up sexism where there's none.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rural - Francesca
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posted 08 March 2008 04:22 PM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oh so every and any woman who points a finger and says 'sexism' should be equally dismissed?

Are we so use to such attacks against women, that we just consider it noise and 'get over it already'?


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Michelle
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posted 08 March 2008 04:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, this just pisses me off so much. The opening post clearly says that this thread is NOT supposed to be a debate about which candidate people support, and it's not supposed to be a discussion about whether you like Clinton or not. It's simply supposed to be a thread where people document the actual sexism Clinton is facing.

And along comes Adam to dump all over the thread with his completely off-topic post about all the reasons Clinton sucks. And he's managed to now completely turn this thread into a discussion about whether feminists are being too sensitive and whether we're calling each and every criticism of Clinton "sexism" when we're clearly not doing that in this thread.

You can't even respect this one thread in this one forum, right, Adam? There's not enough other threads to discuss all the reasons you hate Hillary Clinton, right? There's not an entire international news and politics forum with a hundred and fifty threads on Clinton and Obama where you could have posted that, right? No, you just had to come here and post a completely off-topic post in order to make this thread all about what you want it to be about.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 08 March 2008 04:38 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
Given that you seem to have fallen into the camp, that every criticism she's received is based on sexism, I'd hardly say that you're a credible judge of what is and what isn't sexism either.
But you, as a man, are a credible judge of what is and what isn't sexism?

And you, as a man, feel you have a right to tell a woman, that she does not know what is, or is not sexism?

Well, I will now tell you, as a women, your comments are an excellent example of sexism.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 08 March 2008 04:43 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think it was off topic at all.

I agree there is genuine sexism against Hillary Clinton. I've read about some of it myself.

I do have to admit, I'm not 100% sure what the point of this thread is. Is it just to be outraged by the sexism againt Hillary Clinton?

As I said, in a country with 300 million people, there are bound to be a lot of sexist jerks. I don't say that to dismiss it, just to point out that most of it is made by idiots who have absolutely no influence whatsoever. If you, for some reason, want to give those people a forum by reposting what they say, that's fine, I'll stay out of that.

If you are trying to make a thread, however, that says Hillary Clinton has been the 'victim' of some large sexist campaign, which is where I thought this thread was going, then my first reply is completely valid, and I'm going to strongly dispute that.

I see absolutely no evidence that any of the serious criticism she has faced has come from anybody with a sexist agenda or that her campaign has been damaged by sexism.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 08 March 2008 04:47 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And you, as a man, feel you have a right to tell a woman, that she does not know what is, or is not sexism?

Uh huh, I have a "friend" who is Jewish, and I'm Jewish myself.

He is older than me and for about 20 years he was absolutely convinced that every German he met was a former Nazi.

Now he is absolutely convinced that every Muslim he meets is a terrorist, including the local former N.D.P candidate in the riding Itrath Sayeed.

There is a well known saying "if you look for something hard enough you are bound to find it."


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 08 March 2008 04:59 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's hard for me to defend myself against these sorts of charges of sexism because it descends into 'some of my best friends are women sort of thing'.

The only thing I will say is that I have a friend who said to me that he didn't think Hillary Clinton should be President because she is a woman and I told him "that's really stupid."


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rural - Francesca
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posted 08 March 2008 04:59 PM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
yeah, but here we don't have to look for it too hard, it's right there, in the MSM, constantly.

If we don't acknowledge it, nothing will change for women.


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Adam T
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posted 08 March 2008 05:11 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You may be right, I think it's always a balance between shining a spotlight on it to fight it, and just giving it more of a forum.

I don't really know the answer.

The National had a similarly themed story on that yesterday with the use of the 'N' word.

I will say taking another look over the forum, that all of the examples of the real sexism posted here are from very fringe writers, excluding the Bill Maher and Harry Shearer thing.

Harry Shearer is a satirist and was probably mocking, but Bill Maher is a well known jerk.

There was an example in Canada too with Ezra Levant saying on the Charles Addled show that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton both got to where they did because they were in the right identity groups. I didn't hear that show, but CKNW here repeated that as a teaser for the Addled show.

I was outraged by that and maybe there is a need for a forum to express outrage at these sorts of things.

I still think it's important though to draw a distinction between highlighting idiotic comments and using that as an exuse to bash all legitimate criticism.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
rural - Francesca
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posted 08 March 2008 05:15 PM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:

I still think it's important though to draw a distinction between highlighting idiotic comments and using that as an exuse to bash all legitimate criticism.

yeah you would think wouldn't you......

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I was just doing some research for work about the sexism Clinton's been facing and thought it would be interesting to have a thread devoted to simply recording articles about and incidents of sexism during Clinton's campaign.

This thread is not about who you support in the primaries. In fact, I support Obama, and I know lots of other babblers too. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is also not about whether it's harder to be a black man or a white woman.

This thread is simply about recording and discussing the sexism Clinton's been facing during her campaign.



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martin dufresne
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posted 08 March 2008 05:23 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Adam T, since you posted your "yawn" comment immediately after my reference to the differential treatment of Obama and Clinton in U.S. political cartoons, I am really surprised that the gist of your "argument" seems to be denial of any real influence from sexist representations and commentaries.
If political cartoons - that daily provide USians with they yuks about whom not to take seriously - don't have influence in your book, I wonder what does -- and find you a little disingenuous.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 08 March 2008 05:40 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My 'yawn' comment was solely in reference to Hillary Clinton supporters who try to argue that every critisicm of her is sexist. It was not to deny that there is real sexism against her.

However, on the broader point, I just disagree that sexism, or racism for that matter, seems to be having much of an influence on the Democratic primary. I would think that is something to be celebrated actually.

When it gets to the general, it may be more of a factor.


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rural - Francesca
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posted 08 March 2008 05:45 PM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How can it not be a factor?
From: the backyard | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 08 March 2008 05:55 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because maybe the vast majority of Americans don't care if a candidate is a woman, a minority, a white male or even a green martian.

According to the polls the only group that still faces significant discrimination is athiests.


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rural - Francesca
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posted 08 March 2008 05:59 PM      Profile for rural - Francesca   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If gender or race wasn't a factor, we wouldn't be looking at the first woman and the first person of colour.
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Draco
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posted 08 March 2008 06:03 PM      Profile for Draco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
My 'yawn' comment was solely in reference to Hillary Clinton supporters who try to argue that every critisicm of her is sexist. =

I've seen very few criticisms of her that didn't use some sexist rhetoric or ideology.

I agree that, in theory, she could certainly be fairly criticized on the merits of her arguments just like any other candidate. In practice, is that occurring? No, not even close. Even when there is some argument of merit, the criticisms I have seen almost invariable spring from a fundamentally sexist worldview. This is unsurprising, given the extent to which fundamentally sexist worldviews permeate North American society.


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Vansterdam Kid
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posted 14 March 2008 04:34 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On selfishness, I would dispute that calling her selfish is automatically sexist.

One of the reasons that the 'netroots', and liberal-left, of the Democratic Party is pro-Obama and anti-Clinton is due to his "50 state strategy." One of the reasons they don't like Clinton has to due with her ""insult 40 state strategy."

So, when it comes to the American left anyways, Clinton's 'selfishness' is seen as something that has been apparent in Bill Clinton's political history and is likely to be apparent in Hillary Clinton's political modus oporandi too. After all when you vote Clinton you "buy one, get one free." Hillary Clinton may get votes from the blue collar, "low information" voters, but unlike Obama she gets the vast majority of her money from large donations. Essentially her campaign is about her, whereas Obama's campaign is about himself but he also tries to make it about the people supporting him too (by, amongst other things, saying things like "Yes we can")...to make it more like a movement and thus less "selfish."


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Michelle
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posted 14 March 2008 05:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was going to post this in the Ferraro thread but figured it would be thread drift there.

[Actually, never mind. It would be thread drift here too, since this thread was specifically NOT supposed to be about comparing racism to sexism. The comparison wasn't my main point, but I'm sure it will be the point that will get picked up on.]

[ 14 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 March 2008 06:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm trying to find an article that I stumbled upon a couple of weeks ago, where they were talking about the polarization among female voters in the US.

It was interesting because the article featured quotes from female Obama supporters who were handing out literature near polling stations, and they described female Clinton supporters as "angry" because the women wouldn't stop and talk to them or take their literature.

I wish I could find it because the description of "angry women" who support Hillary Clinton was interesting. Basically, the tone of the article was that these poor, defenceless little women who support Obama were being treated so rudely by all those nasty, ballbusting, bitchy Clinton supporters who refused to take their Obama literature on voting day.

Even women who support Clinton are bitches!

[ 14 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 14 March 2008 06:10 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've read the opposite. It seems like the general criticism of female Clinton supporters toward female Obama supporters is that they're somehow "selling out", inspite of the fact that maybe they don't support Clinton on a variety of issues. Without going off on a tangent, they're being accused of being "Uncle Tom's" in the same way that black Clinton supporters are accused of the same stuff. At least that's the impression I've gotten, reading articles like this one and this one.
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KenS
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posted 15 March 2008 09:30 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Draco:
quote:
I agree that, in theory, she could certainly be fairly criticized on the merits of her arguments just like any other candidate. In practice, is that occurring? No, not even close. Even when there is some argument of merit, the criticisms I have seen almost invariable spring from a fundamentally sexist worldview.

In practice you say, no criticisms of Clinton that have any merit that does not "spring from a fundamentally sexist worldview."

Well I invite you to use me as a demonstrtation, as a laboratory. I've got lots of posts criticising Clinton for you to choose from.

So show us how I, for example, while seeming to say something of merit am actually expressing a fundamentally sexist world view.

[And not simply, "here's an example". For educational purposes some kind of where and how is required.]


ETA: We could also skip the thread drift and agree that is inevitable some people would make ridiculous equivalencies that in some fundamental way most criticism of Clinton in practice is a manifestation of sexism.

...AND, to not get lost in said thread drift, big deal if some people do that predictable thing.

[ 15 March 2008: Message edited by: KenS ]


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 15 March 2008 10:05 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, that article you are looking for about polarization is a NYT column by Maureen Dowd entitled "Duel of historical guilts", dated March 5 and posted on Babble here.

[ 15 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 15 March 2008 10:18 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Draco: Even when there is some argument of merit, the criticisms I have seen almost invariable spring from a fundamentally sexist worldview.
KenS: In practice you say, no criticisms of Clinton that have any merit that does not "spring from a fundamentally sexist worldview."

KenS, you should have stuck with your "big deal" summation, a few lines below, because it says a lot more about your position than this pathetic new straw man.
What I hear Draco saying is that even arguments of merit against Clinton get lost in criticisms that overtake it, and that appeal, instead, to the fundamentally sexist worldview that facilitates bashing a woman as woman.
I have noticed the same. There is sometimes a kernel of possible value in an argument, but it is most often merely used to reactivate a host of stereotypes and attacks steeped in misogyny and, in some cases, overt antifeminism. These overtake what could have been a valid assessment and the criticisms turn into one more rant against Clinton.
But, as you say, "big deal," right?

[ 15 March 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
KenS
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posted 16 March 2008 02:09 AM      Profile for KenS     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Big deal" to what?

You are utterly incomprehensible.

Mind you, I hesitate to encourage you to sort out what you are saying. Because it looks like where you are going would almost certainly entail another total distortion of what I said... which I can't address without derialing the thread.

Here by the way is the "big deal" comment which you referred to but didn't quote:

quote:
: We could also skip the thread drift and agree that is inevitable some people would make ridiculous equivalencies that in some fundamental way most criticism of Clinton in practice is a manifestation of sexism.

...AND, to not get lost in said thread drift, big deal if some people do that predictable thing.


I would think you understand the meaning and just decided to [try] to make your own use of my using the words "big deal" irregardless of what I actually said.

But just in case you didn't get it, I'm saying that we should not throw away the message because a couple of the messengers are so extreme as to in practice portray all criticism of Clinton as sexist.


From: Minasville, NS | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 March 2008 04:11 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, Martin, that WAS the one! I skipped past it a couple of times in google searches, not sure why.

Anyhow, yeah. Obama supporters keep saying that it's not their fault that the press is being so sexist, and that the difference between Clinton and Obama is that the Clinton camp is being racist, but the Obama camp isn't being sexist at all. Well, of course the Obama camp doesn't have to be sexist - the media is doing all their work for them.

Also, Obama's clearly smarter than Clinton (which is another reason why he should get the nomination, I guess - he's way better at smearing while looking perfectly innocent). Clinton's high-profile people get in trouble for racist smears. Obama's camp leaves the sexist smears to the people in his campaign who are lower-level so that he can't be accused of smearing. (Not that sexist smears get any media attention anyhow, other than being printed straight without any acknowledgement of sexism.)

So, in the article that Martin posted, the sexist smear has been done by a no-name district captain, who complains about what a bunch of bitches those nasty feminist Clinton supporters are - but then after her sexist smear, she magnanimously says that after Obama wins the campaign, she'll do her best to help woo them back:

quote:
Julie Acevedo, a precinct captain for Obama in Austin, noticed that things were getting uglier on Friday, during the early voting, when she “saw some very angry women just stomping by us to go vote for Hillary. They cut us off when we tried to talk about Barack.

“I’m 46,” Ms. Acevedo, a fund-raiser for state politicians, said Tuesday night. “Maybe I missed it by a few years, but I don’t know why these women are so fueled by such hostility and think other women are misogynists if they don’t vote for Hillary. It’s insulting and disturbing.”

She said that if Obama definitively outpaces Hillary, she will work to “heal the wounds” and woo back women who are now angry at him.


Goddamn feminist bitches, hey? Always so angry and nasty - must be because they're old hags, unlike the young Acevedo who, luckily, missed the feminist bitch thing "by a few years". All those nasty old crones supporting Hillary. Surely you don't want to be one of THEM! Better vote for Obama. He's the choice of nice, younger women who haven't given up all their charm to becoming bitter old bags.

[ 16 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 March 2008 04:16 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by KenS:
ETA: We could also skip the thread drift and agree that is inevitable some people would make ridiculous equivalencies that in some fundamental way most criticism of Clinton in practice is a manifestation of sexism.

...AND, to not get lost in said thread drift, big deal if some people do that predictable thing.


Or YOU could skip the thread drift entirely by just staying the hell out of this thread, instead of constantly CLAIMING that you want to avoid thread drift.

It's really annoying - you just post your point of view, then declare that it's going to cause thread drift if anyone argues the point with you.

YOU are the one causing thread drift. YOU are the one who is off topic. Please stay out of this thread from now on since you just can't seem to help yourself from posting self-admitted "thread drift" posts and from starting pissing matches in this thread. We get it. You really can't stand Martin. You've made your point.

[ 16 March 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 04 April 2008 01:41 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hillary's real crime is not knowing her place
by Antonia Zerbisias

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 04 April 2008 02:14 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excellent article by Antonia!

quote:
The thing about misogyny is, it's so ingrained and we women are so mentally colonized that we often don't recognize it even when it is aimed straight at us.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 12 May 2008 08:45 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sexism On Parade
Guest post by Grey, May 11, 2008

It was just a matter of time. First came the nutcracker; then they called her "sister Frigidaire," crazy, grossly ruthless and a shrill, petulant, whiny spoiled brat.

Hillary Clinton is such a girl that her voice makes "a politically progressive man" fight the urge "to punch her in the face."

It's the cackle, you know? Bob Ellis compiled a list of what he doesn't like about her:

quote:
Her towering frigidity, blazing hubris, bellowing mendacity (...)

[Go to webpage for lots of links within the story.]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrose
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posted 20 May 2008 08:36 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Clinton decries sexism in the White House race

quote:
Hillary Clinton called sexist attacks on her campaign "deeply offensive" Tuesday, as female supporters sprang to her defense, saying she speaks for all women and should stay in the Democratic race to the bitter end.

ADVERTISEMENT

In what appear to be the waning days of her historic White House bid, the former first lady spoke out for the first time about what her supporters have long condemned, including derisive T-shirts, novelty items and commentary focusing on her gender.


"It's been deeply offensive to millions of women," Clinton said told The Washington Post in an interview, in which she pinned blame primarily on tolerant attitudes in the media.


"I believe this campaign has been a groundbreaker in a lot of ways. But it certainly has been challenging given some of the attitudes in the press," Clinton said of the contest that will crown either a black or a female presidential nominee for the first time in history.


Clinton said she did not believe the campaign had been tainted by racism, adding that racism is apparently less tolerated in US society than sexism.


"There should be equal treatment of the sexism and the racism when it raises its ugly head," she said.


"It does seem as though the press at least is not as bothered by the incredible vitriol that has been engendered by the comments by people who are nothing but misogynists."


Female supporters of Hillary Clinton have sprung to her defense, insisting she should stay in the Democratic primary race to the end, June 3.



From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
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posted 20 May 2008 11:17 AM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Hillary Clinton called sexist attacks on her campaign "deeply offensive" Tuesday, as female supporters sprang to her defense, saying she speaks for all women and should stay in the Democratic race to the bitter end.

I can see that Clinton has had to deal with sexist attacks for many years now. And these attacks should of course be confronted whenever they occur.

But it's these kinds of statements from her supporters that i don't understand.

How can they say that:

1. Clinton speaks for all women

2. Clinton should stay in the race even though she has no chance of winning, and that she should take things to "the bitter end"


From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dana Larsen
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posted 20 May 2008 03:11 PM      Profile for Dana Larsen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When was the last time an opinion piece or cartoon commented on a male candidate's figure?

Male candidates get comments on their weight and appearance all of the time. For instance, Al Gore's weight was a frequent topic of jokes and comments from talk show hosts and other media.

Some examples:

quote:
"Remember Al Gore? Since the election the guy has put on 40 pounds. It's gotten so bad that every time he turns around, his ass erases the blackboard. ... He got on the scales today and demanded a recount." --David Letterman

"Al Gore has put on 40 pounds since losing the election and experts contribute this to depression. That's right. In a related story, Michael Dukakis now weighs 12,000 pounds." --Conan O'Brien

"He's so fat, Clinton is thinking of hitting on him." --from David Letterman's "Top Ten Responses To The Question, 'How Fat Is Al Gore?'"

"It's kind of ironic. He always wanted to distance himself from Bill Clinton. Now that he's out of politics and overweight, he is Bill Clinton." --Jay Leno


If these same comments above had been made about a female candidate, would they be sexist?


quote:
She expressed justifiable concern that "focusing on the clothing choices of serious female political players risks rendering them less than serious," something these reporters and editors know all too well.

Male candidates also face endless discussion over their clothes...

Here's some examples:

quote:
Stitch in time produces new classic
Chicago Sun Times
May 6, 2001
by Lisa Lenoir
http://www.oxxfordclothes.com/suntimes.asp

President George W. Bush steps into the spotlight looking like a man fresh off the pages of GQ magazine. His black cashmere overcoat delicately drapes his shoulders, the blue stripe tie radiates against his white shirt and the suit perfectly fits his fit form. What a contrast after seeing Bush's hokey business and Western attire on the campaign trail. The 10-gallon hats and cowboy boots caused many fashion watchers to shake in their boots. But Bush's past style lapses are forgivable because, since his inauguration he's been wearing some of the best tailored garments -- Oxxford suits.



quote:
Fashion Watch: Harper most stylish of the bland
Updated Mon. Dec. 19 2005 8:50 PM ET

Canadian Press

TORONTO -- While the electorate is still deciding on the country's new leader, Stephen Harper is being seen by some fashion analysts as the most stylish of a bland bunch.

Despite a "noisy tie," Harper's pocket puff allowed him to emerge as the most fashion forward of all the "white guys in dark suits" in last week's English-language debate, said Sally Ritchie, a clothes-savvy television producer at TVOntario who's been watching what the leaders are wearing.

"Overall, Harper was the snazziest dressed," she said. "Yes, he was the clear winner -- the least bland of the bland."

Fashion designer Paul Hardy agreed that Harper was the most stylish.

"The pocket puff totally won my vote. He had the perfect shade of blue shirt," said Hardy from his studio in Calgary. "Frankly, I just thought (his outfit) was so modern. I was very surprised because I wouldn't expect him to be on the pulse."


quote:
Stephen, what the heck are you wearing?
LEAH McLAREN
March 31, 2006 at 8:56 AM EDT

Stephen darling, can we talk?

What I and everybody else back in Canada really need know right now is what the heck are you wearing?

Don't give me that "who me?" look. It might work on Laureen, but it won't work on a style columnist. I know you got into Cancun late Wednesday night. I know you haven't had time to shop since Afghanistan.You're Prime Minister now -- it's time to dress that way.

I don't mean to be cranky, but you're testing my sartorial patience. First there was the hair issue (ongoing), then the series of mock turtlenecks that made you look like an assistant golf pro at Club Link, then the Lone Ranger getup at the Stampede, and now this! Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse, you show up for an official visit wearing a fishing vest and clashing bottoms.


[ 20 May 2008: Message edited by: Dana Larsen ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 20 May 2008 04:27 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No sexism here folks. Move on. The men have spoken. It simply exists only in our minds and besides, if there is sexism, men suffer from it too.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 20 May 2008 05:06 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hillary gave a moving tribute to Ted Kennedy in her Kentucky victory speech tonight.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 20 May 2008 06:40 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
No sexism here folks. Move on. The men have spoken. It simply exists only in our minds and besides, if there is sexism, men suffer from it too.

One man spoke.

This man thinks that the sexism endured by female politicians is appalling.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 20 May 2008 07:56 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm with Scott. I considered arguing in favour of Clinton based on the attacks she is receiving, but her politics are just a bit too bad for that.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
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posted 20 May 2008 09:15 PM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Excellent article by Antonia!


quote:
She's too hot, too cold, too hard, too soft, too weak, too strong, too feminine, too masculine ...


I recall criticisms of P.M. Kim Campbell ran along similar lines.

I have to admit I have not been investing a lot of time watching US politics, I switch the channel when the primary highlights come up on CBC. Politics usually brings out the worst in pundits.

It was not until I read some Marilyn vos Savant
(1996 - The Power of Logical Thinking: Easy Lessons in the Art of Reasoning…and Hard Facts about Its Absence in Our Lives) that I realised how sexist society is toward women, in politics, in academics, and in public life.

Marilyn herself (apparently having the highest IQ in the world : Guinness book of world records) had her gender attacked and maligned ('female logic') and not her solutions, proofs and procedures.
Marilyn's plumbing is wrong, therefore her solutions and analysis are as well.


From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Blairza
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posted 21 May 2008 07:40 AM      Profile for Blairza     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Hillary has been a victim of sexism, and America is so deeply sexist that even people who consider themselves progressives or even feminists will reach for the bitch card. Much of this is due to America's education system. we don't learn logic and rhetoric in high school, so we can't define much less form a reasoned argument. When someone angers us we resort to name calling the more hurtful the better. In America we express feelings better than thoughts.

There are however real reasons to distrust Senator Clinton and to oppose her, most importantly her stand on the invasion and occupation of Iraq. There has been quite a bit of handwringing about misogony in the media, and very little about the betrayel felt by progressives who opposed the war. This is far and away the largest hurdle for Clinton,but the media doesn't really want to talk to Peace and justice advocates, so it's much more convenient to pretend that this is an election about demography and identity.


From: Sonoma, California | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 21 May 2008 03:12 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Talking about logic...
quote:
Yes, Hillary has been a victim of sexism (...)
There are however real reasons to distrust Senator Clinton(...)

Isn't this a classic non sequitur?

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 21 May 2008 03:16 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
jrootham: I considered arguing in favour of Clinton based on the attacks she is receiving, but her politics are just a bit too bad for that.

More flawed logic. No one is asking anyone to root for Clinton just because she is being maligned based on sexist stereotypes. You could settle for standing up to the sexist treatment her candidacy is getting, as would presumably, any woman's.

[ 21 May 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 May 2008 03:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly. You don't have to support Clinton's politics to stand up to the sexism. No one is asking people to react to the sexism by voting for her.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 21 May 2008 03:25 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dana Larsen wrote:
quote:
...Male candidates also face endless discussion over their clothes...

Endless...? Not by a long shot! And I can't help noticing that two out of the three quotes you offer are congratulatory...

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 21 May 2008 03:54 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Male candidates only have negative discussion about their clothes if it's a really bad choice in general (see Stephen Harper and the cowboy gear) or it's an abrupt change (the Preston Manning makeover). Otherwise, if it's even slightly formal and made in the same decade they get a pass.

For sure, there's a lot more ways to go wrong with women's fashion, but even with that it really gets far too much scrutiny.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 21 May 2008 08:02 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was involved directly in politics and campaigning at one time way back when. Sexism does happen and it's annoying as f**k. I have first hand experience. Excuse the language, but it is real sore spot. I still have a media article which talked about my hair. I can tell you that being on the receiving end of this type of crap is very disconcerting and DOES have an affect on thinking. It actually is a distraction and when one is supposed to be focused on the issues and the actual people there's this niggling thing in the background that one has to contend with and try to push out of the way. 'Is my hair okay today? Choice of clothes etc etc. Of course image is important but I personally feel that because of this there is an extra amount of pressure that males don't have to contend with as much.
Honestly though the media is one thing but dealing with some of the other males involved was way worse. I didn't have any problem whatsoever with the other women, especially those in opposing parties. Any discussions were about the actual issues and I never had to deal with comments about my looks, 'Oh a good looking women like you, etc etc.' Yes I suppose one could come back and say well thats just complimenting but there is a difference between just complimenting and having such 'compliments' contextulizing what your actually saying and the actual discussion. Not sure I explained that right, it's a nuanced thing and hard to put into words.
The worst though came from a conservative senator, who in discussion about Kyoto and the Cons supposed 'plan', constantly referred to me in a condescending manner as young lady. "Now see here young lady, you are blah blah this, Now see here young lady...blah blah that" Everything was in context with me being 'female' and in this case also young, which is another issue.
Oh and just to note, I did not let him get away with it and refused to be demeaned that way. I calmly pushed my points and yes I *ahem* did throw in a calm but pointed, "Now see here old man..." Considering that some of the people listening broke out laughing at this I think I made the point which was basically, 'screw off and cut that crap, you sexist pig' without having to say the actual words.

Bleh though and grrr...

From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 22 May 2008 07:38 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apparently calling Hillary a "white bitch' is quite appropriate. Coming direct to you from that bastion of Liberal thinking - CNN.

Shakesville - Click Me...


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 22 May 2008 07:41 AM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ElizaQ:
"Now see here old man..."


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
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posted 22 May 2008 01:37 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More sexist crap from Rush Limbaugh:

quote:
LIMBAUGH: You know, the feminazis forgot one thing. Well, one of the objectives of the feminazis over the last 20, 25 years has been to dominate the public education system so as to remove the competitive nature of boys. You know, there's a crisis of young man-boy education in the schools. And they did this on purpose, to eliminate male competition in the work force. This is part of feminazi grand plan.

They forgot affirmative action for black guys. And because of that, every bit of their plan has gone up in smoke now, because they -- if -- they had to come out in favor of affirmative action for black guys, and that's -- see, this is one of the things that really irritates the women. And there are women all over this country fit to be tied -- trust me on this. And it's -- one of the things is affirmative action is exactly -- it's, you know, liberals eventually are going to be devoured by their own policies. And it has happened here. Because Barack Obama is an affirmative action candidate. There's no question, the way he is being treated by the drive-bys and so forth and so on. The way he's been puffed up here with the magical, messiah-type message with no criticism allowed.

So, it's just -- they just forgot that one thing: affirmative action for black guys. And if they had remembered to oppose that, then they wouldn't face the situation they face today.



From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Blairza
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posted 24 May 2008 07:33 AM      Profile for Blairza     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
for Martin,

You truncated my statements to create the non sequiter. My sentence about distrusting Senator Clinton was the topic sentence of my second paragraph. My point is not that the sexist attacks are appropriate, or that they should be ignored. My point is that sexism has not been ignored, there is an on going discussion of nutcrackers and shirt irons. Meanwhile the media ignores progressives who do not want another ride with the Clintons. This group has been largely marginalised and ignored, described as either cult members, or the activist fringe. many of Clinton's supporters would like to believe that resistance to her is solely based on sexism, and as long as legitimate critcism of her is embargoed that would seem to be true.


From: Sonoma, California | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 May 2008 04:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Agreed. Martin, how about if you want to attribute motives to people - especially in this forum - you quote what they actually wrote instead of cutting and pasting different sentences from different paragraphs together out of context.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
minkepants
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posted 25 May 2008 10:18 AM      Profile for minkepants     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
MR. RUSSERT: Maureen Dowd, "misogynist," "gender bias," it seems as though the Clintons are being--trying very hard to lay that out as a premise for Hillary Clinton's difficulties in this primary contest.

MS. DOWD: I think it's poppycock, really. I mean, Hillary Clinton has allowed women to visualize a woman as president for the first time, in the way Colin Powell allowed people to visualize an African-American. And she dominated the debates, she, she proved that a woman can have as much tenacity and gall as any man on earth. We, we can visualize her facing down Ahmadinejad. But the thing is, Hillary hurts feminism when she uses it as opportunism. And she has a history of covering up her own mistakes behind sexism. She did it with health care right after health care didn't pass. She didn't admit that she was abrasive or mismanaged it or blew off good advice or was too secretive. She said that she was a Rorschach test for gender and that many men thought of a female boss they didn't like when they looked at her. And now she's doing the same thing, and it's very--you know, in a way it's the moral equivalent of Sharptonism. It's this victimhood and angry and turning women against men and saying that the men are trying to take it away from us, in the same way she's turning Florida and Michigan and riling up and comparing them to suffragettes and slaves. And it's very damaging to feminism.


meet the press transcript from today

webcast of same


From: Scarborough | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 07 June 2008 09:10 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Woman In Charge, Women Who Charge
Judith Warner, The New York Times, June 5, 2008

Is it a coincidence that the bubbling idiocy of "Sex and the City," the movie, exploded upon the cultural scene at the exact same time that Hillary Clintons candidacy imploded?

Literally, of course, it is. Figuratively, I'm not so sure.

And before I set off an avalanche of e-mails explaining why Hillary deserved to lose, I want to make one point clear: I am talking here not about the outcome of her candidacy - mistakes were made, and she faced a formidable opponent in Barack Obama - but rather about the climate in which her campaign was conducted. The zeitgeist in which Hillary floundered and "Sex" is now flourishing. (...)


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 07 June 2008 09:23 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In reponse to Blairza and Michelle, I beg to disagree. Nowhere did I attribute motivations to him. Indeed, the only speculation of this kind is Blairza's own (entirely speculative and rather inflammatory) statement that "many of Clinton's supporters would like to believe that resistance to her is solely based on sexism".
As for my pointing out a non sequitur, I still see one in acknowledging the sexism against Clinton (in a thread on that subject) but immediately seguing to a critique of her. It seemed so blatant that I didn't feel I needed to quote more than the opening words of each paragraph before voicing my remark (in the interrogative).

[ 07 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 07 June 2008 09:23 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This fact of how women in public offices are framed and discussed, really is an issue. Jon Stewart did a segment in the Daily Show last week about the rampent sexism of the MSM in respect to Hillary Clinton.

One of the excerpts he showed was the MSM feeling free to discuss her clevage. Have we ever seen the MSM discussing how a man, in politics, package is hanging, or protuding in his pants?


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 07 June 2008 09:34 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shshshsh... If they did, it would probably be admiringly! "Check out the cojones on our Commander-In-Chief!"
BTW, I recall that when Eldridge "You're either part of the problem or of the solution" Cleaver returned from exile, he got some MSM coverage by introducing a line of pants he had designed with a codpiece "intended to display the male sexual organ".

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
minkepants
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posted 07 June 2008 03:14 PM      Profile for minkepants     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Have we ever seen the MSM discussing how a man, in politics, package is hanging, or protuding in his pants?

if you mean on fox or cnn not so much, but a lot of comments, usually derisive, were made about the codpiece effect of Bush's flightsuit on "Mission Accomplished" day. Although, of course that was on Randi Rhodes/ Stephanie Miller/ Olbermann, etc.

you tube sexism sells but we're not buying it.

Marc Rudov's the biggest pig in here. The ignorance is mindblowing. He speaks about PMS being a problem with Hillary as president, which, of course, instantly demonstrates his total ignorance of human biology as it pertains to 60 year old women. But, then again, Hitler loving/ holocaust denying Pat Buchanan still gets to be allowed on 'respectable' news networks so I guess the bar is pretty low.

Interesting note about Rudov. His wiki bio mentions how he writes for "Mens News", which rung a bell for me. Its a GOP/ Karl Rove front site, famous as the former home of .... Jeff Gannon!! You may remeber Jeff: he was the fake reporter, planted by Rove in the press room, that was always called on at difficult White House press briefings when the questions were getting too tough. Jeff was soon revealed to have a second life as a gay prostitute and gay armyporn star.

I dont know why this connection would pop up in my mind after watching the appallingly misogynist Mr. Rudov speak. I mention it only in passing.

[ 07 June 2008: Message edited by: minkepants ]


From: Scarborough | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 08 June 2008 06:27 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Forwarded with B.L. Wagner's permission:
quote:
Hillary Hate-On

U.S. media’s treatment of Clinton shows the political gender gap is going strong
Think it’s any different in Canada? Nuh-uh!
by Bernadette Wagner

In January, MSNBC commentator Chris Matthews succinctly dismissed Hillary Clinton’s talent, skill, political acumen and U.S. Senate experience as factors for her frontrunner status in the Democratic Party's presidential nomination race.

Matthews said, “The reason she may be a front-runner is her husband messed around.”

It’s typical, really, of how women are treated by the media and others when they enter political life. In the United States, the Women’s Media Center (WMC) joined together with prominent U.S. feminists and feminist organizations to extract an apology from Matthews.

Then, on May 23, the WMC released a video of news clips called “Sexism Sells — But We’re Not Buying It”, featuring five minutes of sexist commentary by various male and female newscasters and commentators in the U.S. The clip is viewable online at http://womensmediacentre.com and it provides examples of how commenting on a woman’s appearance — her dress, her cosmetics, her cleavage — is apparently newsworthy, somehow related to her ability to perform as a politician.

If Hillary Clinton has conceded to Barack Obama by the time you read this — and there’s a possibility she will have if it didn’t go well for her in South Dakota and Montana on Tuesday, June 3 — you have to wonder just how much a factor systemic sexism was in her defeat.

Think it’s any different in Canada? Nuh-uh! Just ask Sheila Copps, Belinda Stronach, Amber Jones or Deb Higgins.

When Sheila Copps was a member of the federal Liberal Party’s “Rat Pack” in the House of Commons, she was particularly good at getting under the skin of the Conservative members of Mulroney’s government. At one point, John Crosbie, a cabinet minister, told her to “quieten down, baby.” Admittedly, that was 20-some years ago, but still, that attitude reigns supreme.

During the 2006 election campaign Belinda Stronach, a Liberal MP who entered the political sphere when she ran for the leadership of the Conservative Party, commented in a CTV web story that, “Sometimes it can be a little bit frustrating when you’re trying to get a message out and people are focusing on your personal life or the shoes you’re wearing.” Certainly, the media made much of her personal relationships with Peter McKay and Tie Domi (neither of which compromised national security, as far as I know). Even as recently as last fall a CTV story reported on Stronachs split with Domi and included a description of her attire at a charity gala.

Amber Jones is the new leader of the Green Party in Saskatchewan. She is also a new mother. After she breastfed her child and passed the baby to her partner (likely for a diaper change), the child was returned to her arms. She was attacked by the producer of a radio show for not only breastfeeding her baby but also exploiting the youngster as a “political prop” because this was a media event.

Apparently in Saskatchewan, demonstrating the reality of your life as a breastfeeding mother involved in politics is a no-no.

And let’s not forget Saskatchewan Party MLA Mike Chisholm’s insult of NDP MLA Deb Higgins. Higgins, lauded by many as a hard-working and intelligent woman and as a former Minister of Labour, rankled Chisholm’s feathers with her questions and comments during the discussions of Bills 5 and 6. He responded by calling her a “dumb bitch”.

Coming on the heels of Premier Wall's apology to the people of Saskatchewan for his role in the sexist, racist and homophobic 1991 videotape found by the NDP and released to the public, the premier had no choice but to “accept” Chisholm’s resignation as Legislative Secretary. Nice start but he should have tossed Chisholm from caucus.

Equal Vote Canada is an organization working to promote women’s involvement in politics. Their website cites several international sources which add credence to their demand for more women to be involved in political decision-making.

Like the UNICEF report which says that legislatures with a higher participation of women produce better policies to fight child poverty.

And the World Bank report that says legislatures with higher involvement of women are “more productive.” That report concludes “women are effective in promoting honest government and national parliaments with the largest numbers of women have the lowest levels of corruption.”

Equal Voice says Canada is falling behind on women’s representation in government. Where once we placed much higher, now we are 48th in the
world. The number of women elected to our federal Parliament has hovered around 20 per cent for more than a decade now.

Is it any wonder?

Why would a woman want to run for election if she has to fund her campaign from wages that are 30 per cent less than her male counterpart’s? When she must endure harassment from within the party and the members opposite, as well as from the media if she’s elected?

It’s an uphill battle all the way, especially to the post of the most powerful person in the world.

Just ask Hillary Clinton.

[email protected]


[ 08 June 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1299

posted 10 June 2008 10:12 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Salon video commentary (requires you to view an ad)

I like the point that discussing the sexism that Clinton faced (which is incontravertable) is not the same as "blaming sexism for her loss" (a point which is arguable).


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
minkepants
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13708

posted 11 June 2008 12:01 AM      Profile for minkepants     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I half caught something on CNN this weekend. This little girl, about 10 years old, was on TV with a male senator who had supported her in some charitable activity she had put a lot of effort into. The little girl and the senator were smiling and laughing together and at the end of the interview the reporter asked her "gee, when you grow up, would you like to be a senator too?" and with eyes that were half twinkle and half steel she said "no... President."
From: Scarborough | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 18 June 2008 02:02 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Via Shameless:

“You know what makes me angry? Watching you talk about how angry I am.”


ETA: Ack! babble can't handle the embed. Prolly for the best, since this thread's closure is imminent.

[ 18 June 2008: Message edited by: Catchfire ]


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 June 2008 03:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Long thread!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
MCunningBC
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14903

posted 21 June 2008 07:07 PM      Profile for MCunningBC        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
And before I set off an avalanche of e-mails explaining why Hillary deserved to lose, I want to make one point clear: I am talking here not about the outcome of her candidacy - mistakes were made, and she faced a formidable opponent in Barack Obama - but rather about the climate in which her campaign was conducted. The zeitgeist in which Hillary floundered and "Sex" is now flourishing. (...)


Are you saying this series and now the movie is somehow questionable?


From: BC | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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Babbler # 11463

posted 21 June 2008 10:18 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
These are the words of Judith Warner (NYT article above). They echo many critics' view of the film's general shallowness.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrose
babble intern
Babbler # 13401

posted 22 June 2008 01:03 PM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, have to close for length. Please open a new thread.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged

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