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Author Topic: Afghanistan, Still Losing the War, Part 10
oldgoat
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posted 23 September 2008 10:50 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Continued from here.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 24 September 2008 06:06 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Robert Fisk on Afghanistan
quote:
What Makes Obama and McCain Think They Can "Win" Afghanistan?
By Robert Fisk, The Independent, UK, September 22

Poor old Algerians. They are being served the same old pap from their cruel government. In 1997, the Pouvoir announced a "final victory" over their vicious Islamist enemies. On at least three occasions, I reported -- not, of course, without appropriate cynicism -- that the Algerian authorities believed their enemies were finally beaten because the "terrorists" were so desperate that they were beheading every man, woman and child in the villages they captured in the mountains around Algiers and Oran.

And now they're at it again. After a ferocious resurgence of car bombing by their newly merged "al-Qa'ida in the Maghreb" antagonists, the decrepit old FLN government in Algiers has announced the "terminal phase" in its battle against armed Islamists. As the Algerian journalist Hocine Belaffoufi said with consummate wit the other day, "According to this political discourse … the increase in attacks represents undeniable proof of the defeat of terrorism. The more terrorism collapsed, the more the attacks increased … so the stronger (terrorism) becomes, the fewer attacks there will be."

We, of course, have been peddling this crackpot nonsense for years in southwest Asia. First of all, back in 2001, we won the war in Afghanistan by overthrowing the Taliban. Then we marched off to win the war in Iraq. Now -- with at least one suicide bombing a day and the nation carved up into mutually antagonistic sectarian enclaves -- we have won the war in Iraq and are heading back to re-win the war in Afghanistan where the Taliban, so thoroughly trounced by our chaps seven years ago, have proved their moral and political bankruptcy by recapturing half the country.

It seems an age since Donald "Stuff Happens" Rumsfeld declared, "A government has been put in place (in Afghanistan), and the Islamists are no more the law in Kabul. Of course, from time to time a hand grenade, a mortar explodes -- but in New York and in San Francisco, victims also fall. As for me, I'm full of hope." Oddly, back in the Eighties, I heard exactly the same from a Soviet general at the Bagram airbase in Afghanistan -- yes, the very same Bagram airbase where the CIA lads tortured to death a few of the Afghans who escaped the earlier Russian massacres. Only "terrorist remnants" remained in the Afghan mountains, the jolly Russian general assured us. Afghan troops, along with the limited Soviet "intervention" forces, were restoring peace to democratic Afghanistan.(...)


[ 24 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 25 September 2008 09:42 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Pakistan military fires warning shots at NATO helicopters
NATO disputes Pakistani president's claim that helicopters crossed border
Last Updated: Thursday, September 25, 2008 | 1:00 PM ET Comments93Recommend72CBC News
The Pakistan military fired "flares" at NATO helicopters on Thursday after they crossed into the country from Afghanistan, says Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari.

NATO reported on Thursday morning that Pakistani troops fired small arms at two International Security Assistance Force helicopters that were patrolling along the eastern Afghanistan border.

The Pakistani military said in a statement that the helicopters were "well within" Pakistani territory and returned fire before flying back into Afghanistan.


http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/09/25/helicopter-pakistan.html


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 27 September 2008 09:08 AM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Washington Post September 25, 2008

As crime increases in Kabul, so does nostalgia for Taliban

By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service

Kabul -- Mirza Kunduzai, 58, a slight man with a short white goatee, had
almost reached his house after a day of trading in the capital's open-air
currency market when his taxi was forced to stop by six heavily armed men
dressed in Afghan National Army uniforms....

Link to full article



From: Gold River, BC | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Harumph
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posted 28 September 2008 11:51 AM      Profile for Harumph     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/09/25/helicopter-pakistan.html


You've gotta love the CBC. Warning shots? They were signal flares. Warnings? Yes. Shots? No.


From: West of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 28 September 2008 01:09 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan -- The Taliban had threatened her with death before, and on Sunday they finally made good.

Lt.-Col. Malalai Kakar, Kandahar's first female police detective and the highest-ranking policewoman in southern Afghanistan, was shot and killed by gunmen as she was on her way to another day of trying to bring law and order to this war-torn city.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 28 September 2008 02:49 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Harumph:

You've gotta love the CBC. Warning shots? They were signal flares. Warnings? Yes. Shots? No.


So you apparently agree with the Pakistan claim that they only fired "flares" --and disbelieve NATO's widely reported statement that they were "fired upon".
What does that have to do with the CBC?


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 28 September 2008 03:17 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Webgear:
Lt.-Col. Malalai Kakar, Kandahar's first female police detective and the highest-ranking policewoman in southern Afghanistan, was shot and killed by gunmen as she was on her way to another day of trying to bring law and order to this war-torn city.

Them's the breaks.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 29 September 2008 11:27 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
KABUL — The United Nations says 20,000 Pakistani refugees have fled to Afghanistan to avoid fighting between militants and Pakistan's military.

Pakistan's military launched an offensive in Bajur, the most northerly of Pakistan's wild tribal regions, several of which have fallen largely under the control of militants opposed to the Afghan and Pakistani governments.


Tens of thousands of civilians have fled into other parts of Pakistan as a result of the 2-month-old offensive.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 29 September 2008 12:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Blackwater-linked firm to train Canadian troops

quote:
By Allan Woods | OTTAWA–Canadian soldiers could get training from a U.S. company closely linked to Blackwater USA, a private security firm implicated in the killings of hundreds of Iraqi civilians, if the Department of National Defence has its way.

The military gave notice this week of its intention to award an $850,000 contract for advanced counterinsurgency training to the Terrorism Research Center, a Virginia-based firm that specializes in terrorism training for military and law enforcement officials. The contract is for one year with the option for a two-year extension.

The counterinsurgency school, which boasts close links to the U.S. government, is listed as a branch of Total Intelligence Solutions, a company that is run by former director of CIA counterterrorism Cofer Black and Erik Prince, a former U.S. Navy Seal.

Both are top executives with the Prince Group, the chief holding company for Total Intelligence Solutions and Blackwater.

“It will shock many Canadians to think of our soldiers, who are amongst the best trained in the world, to be sent down to the U.S. to work with a private war-making company that has been indicted in some of its operations in Iraq in the past,” said NDP defence critic Dawn Black. “It raises a terrible spectre.”


It's good to know that Canadian boys will be learnin' the latest tricks from professional terrorists the likes of Backwater. First class asshole-deluxes for sure.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 29 September 2008 12:24 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Canadian military IS a low-rent Blackwater.
Doing America's bidding but for free, complements of the Canadian taxpayer.

From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 29 September 2008 03:28 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It was a very interesting course; I took it several years ago. There was no tactics or theory of war content.

The course is very cultural intense, much of the course was dealing with problems of today as seen by Muslims.

Afghanistan was about 85% of the Canadian course content. It was also taught by Afghans from various parts of the country.

I also had the chance to meet Karzai’s cousin.

At this time there is no equivalent in the Canada.

In my view Canada is paying to much for the course.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 29 September 2008 03:43 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why can't RMC organize a course like that?

They should have connections with universities all over the world. For that matter, if it is locals you want, why not have the Forces in Afghanistan hire them? Bring them back to Kingston for some teaching in a safe and calm environment.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 29 September 2008 03:50 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Webgear:
I also had the chance to meet Karzai’s cousin.

And what an honour it must have been. Did you meet any Backwater people while there?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 29 September 2008 04:43 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, I did not meet any Blackwater People.
From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Harumph
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posted 29 September 2008 08:54 PM      Profile for Harumph     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:
Why can't RMC organize a course like that?

They should have connections with universities all over the world. For that matter, if it is locals you want, why not have the Forces in Afghanistan hire them? Bring them back to Kingston for some teaching in a safe and calm environment.


Because as soon as RMC touches it, it'll turn to crap. That, budget, and design. The PMC crowd is generally ex-special forces. Having regular army design and run the course (especially non-combat trades, which Kingston is packed with) would likely result in an inferior product.

Besides, if we're ditching Afghanistan in 2011, there's no point in investing in the planning, infrastructure, etc. that we won't use in 2-3 years.

PMC-run courses are not a rarity. The BW scandal forced the cancellation of quite a few training plans, but the approach isn't flawed because one company is now a pariah. The fact of the matter remains that you're not going to find better training with no strings attached (IE infrastructure).

Edit:

quote:
Originally posted by contrarianna:

So you apparently agree with the Pakistan claim that they only fired "flares" --and disbelieve NATO's widely reported statement that they were "fired upon".
What does that have to do with the CBC?


"...Pakistani military fired at NATO helicopters after they crossed into the country from Afghanistan."

Launching flares is hardly "shooting at" - the President didn't acknowledge "shooting at" the helicopters, he acknowledged his army as having launched flares.

As to whether they were actually flares, who knows? Seems they're defaulting to believing NATO though.

[ 29 September 2008: Message edited by: Harumph ]


From: West of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 30 September 2008 09:49 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 30 September 2008: Message edited by: contrarianna ]


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 01 October 2008 04:18 PM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

British Envoy Says Mission in Afghanistan is Doomed, According to Leaked Memo

Wednesday 01 October 2008

by: Charles Bremner and Richard Beeston, The Times UK

Link to article



From: Gold River, BC | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 01 October 2008 05:59 PM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Shhh nothing to see here.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 03 October 2008 01:14 PM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Forty years ago, the United States began to mount raids into Cambodia and to undermine the government of King Sihanouk in order to cut Vietcong supply lines.

As a result, America's war with Vietnamese Communism spread into Cambodia, leading to the triumph of the Khmer Rouge and the Cambodian genocide. But these horrors occurred after the U.S. itself had quit Vietnam and after the U.S.-backed regime in South Vietnam had collapsed. Washington's widening of the war benefited neither America nor its local allies.

The U.S. is now making the same mistake in Afghanistan and Pakistan. If continued, ground incursions by U.S. troops across the border into Pakistan in search of the Taliban and Al Qaeda risk drastically undermining the Pakistani state, society and army....

Link to article



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M. Spector
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posted 03 October 2008 07:57 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West:
British Envoy Says Mission in Afghanistan is Doomed, According to Leaked Memo
quote:
The allied governments should start preparing public opinion to accept that the only realistic solution for Afghanistan was to be ruled by "an acceptable dictator".

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 October 2008 01:27 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It'll be a repeat of 1979 Iran.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 October 2008 04:34 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not much similar at all.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 October 2008 03:59 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Not much similar at all.

Name the vicious empire which propped up either brutal rightwing dictatorships or narco-kleptocracies in those two countries bordering one another while the people lived in grinding poverty and despair? Karzai is not supported by the people, and neither was the Shah.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 04 October 2008 06:38 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Taliban reject Karzai call for talks

quote:
Afghan President Hamid Karzai gave an interview on Pakistani television in which he implored Taliban leader Mullah Omar to return to the country and compete in the next presidential election. Karzai promised to be “wholly solely responsible for his safety.”

But top Taliban official Mullah Brother phoned Reuters rejecting the offer “by the Afghan’s puppet and slave President Hamid Karzai.” He insisted that Karzai “only says and does what he is told by America,” and that he was in no position to negotiate. Indeed, the US State Department is still offering a $10 million reward for information leading to the capture of Mullah Omar, so it is unclear how President Karzai planned to guarantee his safety if he were to return to a nation still crawling with US troops.

But perhaps even more interesting is that Mullah Brother was the one who made the satellite phone call. The Mullah is indeed a high ranking official and a close associate of Mullah Omar, but Afghan General Ghulam Muhiddin Ghori claimed that Mullah Brother was killed in Helmand Province over a year ago.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 04 October 2008 06:52 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The end is nearer and nearer and nearer:

Victory impossible in Afghanistan: senior British commander

quote:
Western forces in Afghanistan will never be able to win the war against insurgents and may need to include the Taliban in any long-term solution, Britain's senior commander in the country says in a report.

An absolute military victory in Afghanistan is impossible, Brig.-Gen. Mark Carleton-Smith told England's Sunday Times newspaper.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 05 October 2008 10:09 AM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting -- it's one thing to say we are losing which is open to all types of responses including most certainly escalation. It's another to say that the task is altogether impossible and even misguided as any further escalation or sustained occupation would certaintly be counterproductive.

This is a key point to hammer home.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 07 October 2008 11:46 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!
quote:
October 7, 2008. Seven years ago today the U.S. began the assault on Afghanistan that toppled the Taliban regime and produced the present mess. Abetted by U.S. bombing and commando operations, the Northern Alliance took Kabul on November 13, 2001. This was the initial U.S. response to 9-11, an assault on the U.S. by Saudi Islamist fanatics based in Afghanistan. The al-Qaeda attacks killed 3000 people. By March 2002 the U.S. bombing had produced that many Afghan civilian fatalities. This was just the beginning.

The invasion produced little change in the daily life of the average Afghan. Fanatical Sunni leaders who’d had a genuine social base and had been able to control 95 per cent of the country with minimal outside help were driven back to their villages. They were replaced by other fanatical Sunni leaders---those who had toppled the “leftist” government in 1993, then been overthrown themselves by the Taliban in 1996. These Northern Alliance forces had been nurtured in the duration by India, Russia and Iran as their idea of the better bet among competing Islamist fundamentalists.

But in the seven years since, this collection of tribal-based warlords has been unable to stabilize Afghanistan - even though they’re propped up by tens of thousands of foreign troops who’re told that they’re there to fight terrorism and help create “democracy.” Indeed, its hold on power becomes more tenuous every year, while a resurgent Taliban with no foreign government’s support exacts an ever heavier price from the foreigners and their local allies.

According to the United Nations, 1,445 civilians were killed in the war from January through August this year - a rise of 39 per cent over 2007. At least 577 of these deaths were due to the actions of pro-government forces. Deaths from air strikes have tripled since 2006. “Mistakes by the US and Nato have dramatically decreased public support for the Afghan government and the presence of international forces providing security to Afghans,” declares Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. Francesc Vendrell, a Spanish diplomat with eight years’ experience in Afghanistan, recently noted that civilian deaths at the hands of foreign forces have created “a great deal of antipathy” and the situation in the country is the worst it’s been since 2001. Members of the Afghan Parliament have staged a one-day walkout to protest the civilian casualties.

Puppet president Hamid Karzai has also protested the strikes and their “collateral damage” in the last two years in fairly strong language. But hand-picked for his post by U.S. envoy Zalmay Khalilzad in the Loya Jirga of June 2002, he is commonly known as the mere “mayor of Kabul.” Why should the U.S. pay any attention to his protests? His authority hardly extends beyond the city limits, and even Kabul has become insecure. Elsewhere warlords hold sway in virtually independent ethnic baronies, issuing their own laws and printing their own currency, filling their coffers with the proceeds of opium and human trafficking - activities the Taliban had effectively banned.

Opium poppy production had been effectively wiped out by 2001. Today Afghanistan supplies about 90 per cent of the world’s illegal opium. And then there are the sad continuities. The burqa, vilified before the attack as the symbol of Taliban misogyny, remains the normative female costume and leading political figures insist upon its use. Women are still imprisoned for refusing arranged marriages.



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 07 October 2008 12:04 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
3,200 civilians have been killed in NATO and US action in Afghanistan since 2005.
quote:
Canadian per person condolence payments to Afghans since 2006 range from 1,100-9,000 dollars...

This compares to $1.85 million paid for victims of the 1988 bombing of a flight over Lockerbie, Scotland, and 150,000 dollars per victim of a 1999 US bombing on the Chinese embassy in Belgrade that killed three Chinese and wounded 23 other people.


[ 07 October 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 07 October 2008 03:40 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Afghan mission price tag to be revealed Thursday
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 08 October 2008 03:42 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Department of Defense announced today the activation of U.S. Forces-Afghanistan (USFOR-A), a functioning command and control headquarters for U.S. forces operating in Afghanistan.

USFOR-A will be commanded by Gen. David D. McKiernan, who also will continue to serve as the NATO/International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) commander.

This is so wrong.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 08 October 2008 06:42 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For whom do you work, exactly?
From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 08 October 2008 07:28 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Time To Face The Facts On Afghanistan

quote:
By sharp contrast, I recently asked Karl Rove, President Bush’s former senior advisor, how the US could ever hope to win the war in Afghanistan. His eyes dancing with imperial hubris, Rove brightly replied, `More Predators(missile armed drones) and helicopters! Then we’ll go into Pakistan.’

From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Harumph
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posted 08 October 2008 10:43 PM      Profile for Harumph     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
Time To Face The Facts On Afghanistan


Rove's opinion is exactly the WRONG approach to Afghanistan.

Our problem isn't attriting the Taliban, it's denying them access to the population. That requires forces (ideally Afghan) living with the population - IE protected villages/ strategic hamlets. Once security is established, you recruit and involve the local populace in their own defense, thereby giving them a vested interest in the government forces. You hire villagers to help in their own development programs - IE public works, etc. thereby increasing the standard of living while increasing the personal stake that the public has in protecting their assets and continuing the relationship with government forces.

Concurrently, you use more combat-oriented forces (IE Canadian/American/British conventional forces) to engage in offensive operations against the insurgency.

The main effort is the general population, destroying insurgents is a secondary means to the same end.

The problem is manpower - counter-insurgency (COIN) is very manpower intensive. We don't have that kind of manpower, that's why the OMLT and ANA/ANP are so important. They're also the best equipped, culturally, to engage in long-term interaction with the Afghan public. Hopefully the American and British troop increases will free up more ANA/ANP forces to concentrate on local security, forming village militias, etc.


From: West of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 09 October 2008 09:03 AM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Harumph:

Our problem isn't attriting the Taliban, it's denying them access to the population. That requires forces (ideally Afghan) living with the population - IE protected villages/ strategic hamlets.

That that probably won't work either if it involves foreign troops, and without foreign troops the Afghans get to go back to their business of having a civil war unimpeded.

What is really need in Afghanistan is a change in culture. The social and religious views of the Taliban and their supporters need to be discredited and rejected. The best way that non-Afghan countries can help in this is with soft power at arms' length.

Of course this denies a considerable profit to foreign defense industries, along with whatever other benefits the foreign powers may be pursuing.

Just for info, in today's NYT:

quote:

October 9, 2008
U.S. Study Is Said to Warn of Crisis in Afghanistan
By MARK MAZZETTI and ERIC SCHMITT

WASHINGTON — A draft report by American intelligence agencies concludes that Afghanistan is in a “downward spiral” and casts serious doubt on the ability of the Afghan government to stem the rise in the Taliban’s influence there, according to American officials familiar with the document.

The classified report finds that the breakdown in central authority in Afghanistan has been accelerated by rampant corruption within the government of President Hamid Karzai and by an increase in violence by militants who have launched increasingly sophisticated attacks from havens in Pakistan.

The report, a nearly completed version of a National Intelligence Estimate, is set to be finished after the November elections and will be the most comprehensive American assessment in years on the situation in Afghanistan. Its conclusions represent a harsh verdict on decision-making in the Bush administration, which in the months after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks made Afghanistan the central focus of a global campaign against terrorism.

Beyond the cross-border attacks launched by militants in neighboring Pakistan, the intelligence report asserts that many of Afghanistan’s most vexing problems are of the country’s own making, the officials said....

Link to full article


[ 09 October 2008: Message edited by: Jerry West ]


From: Gold River, BC | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 09 October 2008 01:57 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Our problem isn't attriting the Taliban, it's denying them access to the population.

quote:
What is really need in Afghanistan is a change in culture.

What we need is to get the fuck out and leave them alone. Our problem is our holier-than-thou colonialist attitudes that make us believe that we know best.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 09 October 2008 02:11 PM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:

What we need is to get the fuck out and leave them alone. Our problem is our holier-than-thou colonialist attitudes that make us believe that we know best.


You oppose attitudes that support the equality of women, equating them to colonialism?

It is not a question of whether these kinds of attitudes should be eradicated from global society, but only of how. No society or culture should have an unfettered right to abuse people or the environment.

Having said, I would agree that advancing human rights has nothing to do with the current occupation of Afghanistan, other than as a propaganda tool.


From: Gold River, BC | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 09 October 2008 02:47 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West:
The social and religious views of the Taliban and their supporters need to be discredited and rejected. The best way that non-Afghan countries can help in this is with soft power at arms' length.
So this would mean what - dropping anti-Muslim tracts and birth control pamphlets from B-52's?

What about the social and religious views of the Afghan government? or the "Northern Alliance"? or the NATO countries? Do we declare these all to be superior to the social and religious views of the Taliban and therefore to be adopted by all Afghans?


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 09 October 2008 03:45 PM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
So this would mean what - dropping anti-Muslim tracts and birth control pamphlets from B-52's?


Is it about Islam? Or is it about opposing the denial of human rights? Or, are you equating Islam with cultural aspects that are anti-human rights?

As for what this means, look into soft power, there are lots of peaceful ways to influence people without oppressing or attacking them.

quote:

What about the social and religious views of the Afghan government? or the "Northern Alliance"? or the NATO countries? Do we declare these all to be superior to the social and religious views of the Taliban and therefore to be adopted by all Afghans?

We are not talking about superior social or religious views, we are talking about basic human rights. Granted that the definition of what is a basic human right can be debatable.

Are you supporting the right to subjugate women and enforce strict religious beliefs on a society? Sounds like it.

Personally I think that freedom of religion includes the freedom to be free from religion, and the obligation of governments to be strictly secular. And, I think that everyone who believes that has a right to have that belief and its practice respected, no matter where they live.

I also believe that people of all sexes, ethnic background, and sexual orientation (within limits, pedophilia and non-consensual sex being outside of limits) have equal rights without regard to those criteria. Are you arguing against this?

I do not believe that cultures have equal rights. There are elements in most if not all cultures that transgress what I hold to be a human right, and I believe that we should oppose those elements.

We are not in Afghanistan for those reasons, for one, and for two invading Afghanistan and occupying the country hinders rather than advances those goals.

Do you see supporting the culture of the Taliban as necessary in opposing the western invasion and occupation of Afghanistan? I don't.


From: Gold River, BC | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 09 October 2008 03:50 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's exactly what I was going to say, Jerry, but you beat me to it. By quite a bit.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 October 2008 03:55 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This all sounds like what Jean Bricmont calls "humanitarian imperialism".
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 09 October 2008 04:01 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
This all sounds like what Jean Bricmont calls "humanitarian imperialism".

What did he say about reversing the CIA's, and Saudi Princes', and British, and Pakistani's Talibanization of Pakistan and Afghanistan during the 1980s-90s?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 09 October 2008 05:30 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Humanitarianism in action.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 09 October 2008 06:49 PM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
This all sounds like what Jean Bricmont calls "humanitarian imperialism".

Are you arguing that we should tolerate and accept the subjugation of women and the denial of basic freedoms?

Perhaps the UDHR should be rescinded, no?


From: Gold River, BC | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 09 October 2008 06:52 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West:
Is it about Islam? Or is it about opposing the denial of human rights? Or, are you equating Islam with cultural aspects that are anti-human rights?
Gee, I dunno, Jerry. Which religion did you have in mind when you referred to the “religious views of the Taliban and their supporters”?
quote:
As for what this means, look into soft power, there are lots of peaceful ways to influence people without oppressing or attacking them.
Gee, Jerry, how do you propose to use soft power at arms’ length to discredit and reject the social and religious views of the Taliban and their supporters? We’re dying to know.
quote:
We are not talking about superior social or religious views…
Gee, Jerry, if you don’t know which social and religious views are superior, how do you decide which ones we should be trying to discredit and reject?
quote:
Are you supporting the right to subjugate women and enforce strict religious beliefs on a society? Sounds like it.
Gee, Jerry, are you supporting Canada’s right to tell the Afghans what social and religious views they are allowed to have? Sounds like it.
quote:
Do you see supporting the culture of the Taliban as necessary in opposing the western invasion and occupation of Afghanistan? I don't.
Gee, Jerry, do you see discrediting and rejecting the social and religious views of the Taliban and their supporters as the necessary alternative to invasion and occupation of Afghanistan? I don’t.

Nor do I understand how you decide which of the world’s cultures (which you don’t believe have equal rights) are to be tolerated by us civilized western folk, and which are to become the targets of our “soft power” efforts to discredit and reject them. Who else is on your hit list, besides the Taliban? The Northern Alliance, which rules Afghanistan today, and which Malalai Joya calls “brothers-in-creed of the Taliban and as brutal and anti-democracy as Taliban and even worse”? The United States? Israel? Saudi Arabia? Canada?


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 09 October 2008 07:20 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Gee, Jerry, are you supporting Canada’s right to tell the Afghans what social and religious views they are allowed to have? Sounds like it.

Taliban fundamentalism was not really their religion in Afghanistan - not until the CIA's operation cyclone, and with cooperation of General Zia and ISI in Pakistan during the 1980s.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 10 October 2008 01:08 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West:
No society or culture should have an unfettered right to abuse people or the environment.
I agree with this, but IMV, male supremacy is not going to go away without a fight.

We can see its re-emergence here in NA too.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 10 October 2008 10:45 AM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Gee, ....

Gee, MS, you dodged all of the questions presented to you. Don't have any good answers?

quote:

Which religion did you have in mind....

Any and all religious fantasies that deny basic human rights. Which ones do you have in mind to be given a free pass to do this?

quote:

how do you propose to use soft power

There are lots of ways to aid and support people to make change without bombing them or occupying their territory. I bet that you know that. You want a discussion that enumerates them, start a separate thread and maybe somebody will take you up on it.

quote:

if you don’t know which social and religious views are superior, how do you decide which ones we should be trying to discredit and reject?

Why do you frame it as superior or inferior, I don't. What I do suggest, however, is that discredit and reject any that do not conform to the UDHR

quote:

are you supporting Canada’s right to tell the Afghans what social and religious views they are allowed to have?

Actually, not, and it isn't about Canada in this case, either. Do you oppose the UDHR?

quote:

do you see discrediting and rejecting the social and religious views of the Taliban and their supporters as the necessary alternative to invasion and occupation of Afghanistan?

Are you now arguing for the invasion? Supporting the UDHR and invading Afghanistan are two unrelated subjects in my view, aside from the fact that former was used falsely to support the latter.

quote:

Nor do I understand....

You digress far afield.


From: Gold River, BC | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 10 October 2008 05:04 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
O dear, little propaganda jibes like these are just plain.... insensitive.
quote:

'We should expect Mulla Omar in W.H.'
Thu, 09 Oct 2008 03:08:42 GMT

Iran's Parliament Speaker Ali Larijani has condemned the Western countries for deciding to engage in backdoor talks with Taliban leaders.

“The trend is such a way that we should anticipate that the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar, will attend the White House's parties along with Western officials,” he added.

“If you could reach a compromise with terrorists so easily, why did you stage such a massacre in the region?” he asked.

He pointed to recent remarks made by a senior British military commander who has called for talks with the Taliban and establishing dictatorship in Afghanistan....


PressTV Iran

From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 10 October 2008 05:19 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The intruders blindfolded Hedayatullah and, screaming with fury, forced him to the ground. An Afghan voice told him not to move or speak, or he would be killed. He listened for sounds from the next room, where his brother Noorullah slept with his family. He could hear his nephew, eight months old, crying hysterically. Then came the sound of an automatic rifle, after which his nephew fell silent.

The rest of the family -- 18 people in all, including aunts, uncles, and cousins -- was herded outside into the darkness. The Afghan voice explained to Hedayatullah's terrified mother, "We are the Afghan National Army, here to accompany the American military. The Americans have killed one of your sons and his two children. They also shot his wife and they're taking her to the hospital."

"Why?" Hedayatullah's mother stammered.

"There is no why," the soldier replied. When she heard this, she started screaming, slamming her fists into her chest in anguish. The Afghan soldiers left her and loaded Hedayatullah and his cousin into the back of a military van, after which they drove off with an American convoy into the black of night.

The next day, the Afghan forces released Hedayatullah and his cousin, calling the whole raid a mistake. However, Noorullah's wife, months pregnant, never came home: She died on the way to the hospital.



An ugly little war making Canada an ugly little nation

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 October 2008 05:27 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Even when the bombs don't fall, it's quite dangerous to be an Afghan. Journalist Jawed Ahmad was on assignment for Canadian Television in the southern city of Kandahar when American troops stopped him. In his possession, they found contact numbers to the cell phones of various Taliban fighters -- something every good journalist in the country has -- and threw him into prison, not to be heard from for almost a year. During interrogation, Ahmad says that American jailors kicked him, smashed his head into a table, and at one point prevented him from sleeping for nine days. They kept him standing on a snowy runway for six hours without shoes. Twice he fainted and twice the soldiers forced him to stand up again. After 11 months of detention, military authorities gave him a letter stating that he was not a threat to the U.S. and released him.
- ibid.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jerry West
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posted 10 October 2008 05:58 PM      Profile for Jerry West   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 10 October 2008: Message edited by: Jerry West ]


From: Gold River, BC | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 12 October 2008 10:09 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canadian blowback from Afghanistan
quote:
Canada has been ambivalent about its role in military projections by great powers. We're never sure whether we belong with the empire or the natives. Our view of our soldiers as peacekeepers was an effort to straddle that dilemma. But in the Afghan occupation, we seem to have tilted: We now identify with the big guys, against the little scumbags.

It hasn't worked well. Insecurity there has increased. Sixty per cent want foreign troops out. Social progress has been minimal. The Taliban are resurgent. But what I really want to talk about are the "blowback" effects on us, at home, from our big military adventure. Let me take one example.

Stephen Harper's view for years has been that Canada's social programs are overblown and humiliatingly socialist. (You can Google it.) Yet they're awfully popular. How do you combat that as a minority prime minister? Try this: We can't afford it. Except we seem able to. Hmm, okay. Then lower the GST a couple of points, making less money available for the programs. Not bad. But what next?

Enter the Afghan mission. The parliamentary budget office reported yesterday on its total cost: $14-billion to $18-billion, maybe more: two to three times what the government claimed.

When asked about it, Stephen Harper held his palms up and said it was all "budgeted." As in: Sorry kids, but there's no money left at the end of the month for a trip to the zoo. He'd just announced a meagre $10-million for pulmonary diseases, much like yesterday's $5-million to lure Canadian doctors home. He calls these outlays modest. How about piddling? They are pathetic compared to what's required for national child care, pharmacare, the cities or aboriginals. Then add his plan to spend $490-billion on the military in the next 20 years, anticipating future Afghanistans.


Rick Salutin

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 18 October 2008 09:15 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the second time in a month:

Afghan police kills U.S. soldier

Ungrateful, aren't they? No fear, the U.S. forces returned fire and killed the bad Afghan.

Meanwhile, while some babblers call for Omar Khadr to be tried for allegedly blowing up a U.S. so-called "medic" when Khadr was 15, the foreign forces continue their glorious battle to bring freedom and democracy to the ungrateful Afghan people:

Air strike kills at least 18 civilians

quote:
A BBC reporter in the provincial capital Lashkar Gah saw the bodies - three women and the rest children - ranging in age from six months to 15.

The families brought the bodies from their village in the Nad Ali district, where they say the air strike occurred.

A further nine bodies are said to be trapped under destroyed buildings.


[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 October 2008 06:44 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Taleban kill many in bus attacks

quote:
Taleban insurgents have killed at least 27 people travelling on buses in the southern Afghan province of Kandahar.

A Taleban spokesman said that all those killed in the attacks on three buses were Afghan government soldiers, but officials said they were civilians. ...

A Taleban spokesman said its fighters had boarded the buses travelling on the province's main highway, removed men identified as soldiers and shot them.

Afghan officials said all the victims were civilians as soldiers travel in military convoys or by plane. ...

Stopping another bus carrying about 50 people, they killed 24 of those aboard and freed the rest, Kandahar police chief Matiullah Qateh was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency. ...

Taleban spokesman Yousuf Ahmadi told AFP news agency that those killed were soldiers en route to Helmand province.

"We found government documents on them and we killed 27 of them," he said. "The rest, who were civilians, we freed."



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 20 October 2008 06:03 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A project that was to bring economic prosperity has become a symbol of failure
quote:
Asadullah and his fellow 55 passengers are taking a ride along the 483-km highway that many believe is the most dangerous stretch of road on the planet. Linking Kandahar and Kabul - Afghanistan's two largest and most economically vital cities - and completed almost five years ago, the road was meant to open a gateway to economic development and improve the quality of life for Afghans.

The US state department touted the $190m (£110m) project as "the most visible sign of America's post-war reconstruction" in Afghanistan. But today the road is a symbol of instability across the country, the failure of government and international security forces to maintain law and order, and the increasing presence of the Taliban.

Government and military officials say insurgents and bandits regularly pull travellers from their vehicles, murdering or kidnapping them for ransoms. Corrupt government security forces seek bribes and collaborate with insurgents and robbers. Roadside bombs frequently target Afghan police and military patrols, along with Nato convoys. No one in an official capacity can even quantify the violence.



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 22 October 2008 01:00 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What a tragedy - do you have any idea how long it takes to train Afghan soldiers!!???

Coalition air strike that kills 9 Afghan soldiers called a mistake


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 22 October 2008 02:29 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Afghan student gets 20 years instead of death for blasphemy"

Yet another "triumph" for those Canadians happy to spend lives and treasure for their chosen Afghan government.

quote:

By Laura King
October 22, 2008
Reported from Kabul, Afghanistan -- In a case that has illustrated Afghanistan's drift toward a more radically conservative brand of Islam as well as the fragility of its legal system, an appeals court Tuesday overturned a death sentence for a student convicted of blasphemy but sentenced him to 20 years in prison.

The student, Parwez Kambakhsh, 24, ran afoul of Afghan authorities last year when he circulated an article about women's rights under Islam after downloading it from the Internet. He was studying at the time in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif, where he also worked as a part-time journalist for local newspapers.

Arrested by security police and initially held without charges, he was eventually tried on blasphemy charges, convicted and sentenced to death.

Tuesday's ruling by a three-judge appeals court panel was a blow to human rights groups and advocates of press freedom who have championed Kambakhsh's cause.

International organizations, including New York-based Human Rights Watch, said the case pointed to a troubling lack of respect for freedom of speech and individual liberties in Afghanistan, nearly seven years after a U.S.-led invasion toppled the Taliban fundamentalist Islamic movement....
LA Times


[ 22 October 2008: Message edited by: contrarianna ]


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 25 October 2008 03:16 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Three shot dead in Afghan capital

quote:
Unknown gunmen have killed three people in the Afghan capital, Kabul, including two foreigners, police said.

The attack took place in front of the offices of the courier company DHL in the Sher Pur area of the city, where many foreigners live.

The nationalities of the foreigners were unclear. The attack comes amid rising violence in Afghanistan.

It comes days after an aid worker with dual South African and British nationality was shot dead in Kabul. ...

There has been an upsurge in fighting between Taleban rebels and Afghan and international forces in many parts of the country over the past year.



From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 28 October 2008 09:50 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pakistani, Afghan leaders call for talks with Taliban

quote:
Pakistani and Afghan leaders agreed Tuesday to seek dialogue with Taliban militants in an attempt to bring an end to violence in the two countries, but a Taliban spokesman was not impressed, saying the effort was worthless. ...

"This jirga was founded by the Americans. It has no power, no respect," Zabihullah Mujahid, a Taliban spokesman, told Reuters by satellite telephone from an undisclosed location.

"We will not hold any dialogue while foreign troops commanded by the Americans are in our country," he said.


Kinda obvious who's winning this war, eh?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 28 October 2008 10:51 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Kinda obvious who's winning this war, eh?

I'm not so sure either. Malalai Joya said it's Northern Alliance commanders in Karzai's government, and supported by the U.S., who are selling most weapons to the Taliban. Ordinary Afghans are caught in the middle. The Yanks are using Taliban insurgency to stay longer, she says. Barack Obama is down with Crazy George's phony war on terror and pledges thousands more troops to Afghanistan if elected.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Harumph
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posted 02 November 2008 11:47 PM      Profile for Harumph     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West:

That that probably won't work either if it involves foreign troops, and without foreign troops the Afghans get to go back to their business of having a civil war unimpeded.

What is really need in Afghanistan is a change in culture. The social and religious views of the Taliban and their supporters need to be discredited and rejected. The best way that non-Afghan countries can help in this is with soft power at arms' length.

Of course this denies a considerable profit to foreign defense industries, along with whatever other benefits the foreign powers may be pursuing.

[ 09 October 2008: Message edited by: Jerry West ]



You can't change someone's mindset while there's a group of armed men in their village with the opposite mindset ready to counteract any effort you make.

The ANA/ANP are best geared to "close" interaction with the populace. The conventional forces are best geared for security and offensive operations. The idea that you can achieve any kind of change without foreign forces involved is ridiculous - the ANA is simply not up to the task of fighting the insurgents, maintaining security, etc. all at once.

It's similar to the "Pull out the military and send in NGOs/CIDA/other development agencies!!" argument. Yeah... that'll be effective for about the first 5 minutes until the insurgents walk in and execute every aid worker and collaborating native in sight. The aid work is vital but it can't take place without the military (foreign or otherwise) to provide some modicum of safety in which to conduct the work.


From: West of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 05 November 2008 11:19 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What is it with blowing up weddings all the time?

quote:
Dozens of Afghan civilians are dead and dozens more are wounded after a series of air strikes aimed at Taliban fighters fell short of their target and exploded in the middle of a wedding party in a mountainous region north of Kandahar city, tribal elders and wedding guests told The Globe and Mail on Tuesday.

Survivors of the attacks, which occurred in the village of Wech Baghtu in the district of Shah Wali Kowt on Monday evening, said the majority of the dead and injured were women – the bombs struck while male and female wedding guests were segregated, as is customary in Kandahar province.



From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 05 November 2008 11:35 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What a bloody shame that Western alibis for the killing of Aghan civilians are woven right in to the very first sentence of Canadian "news" items!
quote:
...after a series of air strikes aimed at Taliban fighters fell short of their target and exploded in the middle of a wedding party...
Assassins wouldn't be able to go on killing without their accomplices in the alleged liberal press!!!

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 05 November 2008 12:43 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Letter to the Globe:
I am embarrassed to see the Globe & Mail quote as fact, in the very first sentence of its report, the usual Western invaders' alibi for massacring Afghani civilians at yet another wedding: "bombs falling short of their target" ("Air strikes kill dozens of wedding guests", G&M, Nov. 4)
None of the actual quotations from Mr. Abdul Hakim Khan vindicate the conveniently left anonymous international forces who bombed the Afghan village of Wech Baghtu for 5 hours on Monday evening, killing at least 36 women and injuring many more women and children.
Indeed, Mr. Khan makes the point that Taliban insurgents were on top of a nearby mountain, not in the village, invalidating your claim of bombs falling short of their target, shamelessly attributed by you to "tribal elders and wedding guests" .
It is time for the G&M to state unequivocally that what U.S. and Canadian forces are doing is "punishing" civilian populations for the existence of Taliban soldiers in their region, a war crime explicitly forbidden by the Geneva convention.
You are the ones falling woefully short of that target.

Martin Dufresne


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 November 2008 12:53 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
womenandchildren

womenandchildrenwomenarethesameaschildren

womenandchildren


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 05 November 2008 01:02 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So was this a drone operated remotely from the desert in America or was there a pilot killing these CIVILIANS.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 05 November 2008 01:08 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Drones don't bomb, especially for five hours on end. Read the story:
quote:
Wedding guests first heard shots from the mountain about 4 p.m. Air strikes followed about half an hour later and lasted about five hours, he said.(...)

The bombing wasn't the end of the ordeal, witnesses said. When the air strikes were over, they said, international troops arrived in three sand-coloured armoured vehicles.

Villagers reported they were intimidated and prevented from leaving to seek medical treatment while the soldiers took pictures.



From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 05 November 2008 01:16 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Drones don't bomb, especially for five hours on end. Read the story:
I read the story and you are wrong so maybe next time check your facts before being so quick with absolutes. I posted something on this earlier this year after seeing a show about the British squadron that is working out of the desert in Arizona basically playing video games by flying remote control drones that are very very deadly. Here is a blog with much the same story. And yup they do stay in the air for a long time it is considered one of their tactical advantages.

Drones are bombers

quote:
Armed Predator and Reaper drones have become the primary weapons in the fight against Pakistani militants. But they can be pricey; the Reapers come in at around a hundred million dollars each. Which is why the Air Force is working on a cheaper option: killer zombies.

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: kropotkin1951 ]Pakistan government urges America to stop using drones to bomb

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: kropotkin1951 ]


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 05 November 2008 01:28 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Believe what you want. The promotional fluff piece you link to claims one test firing of one missile by an unmanned large aircraft. The rest of the piece is about using such unmanned large aircraft as aerial targets. I maintain that drones are primarily ultra-light surveillance devices, used to guide manned bombers but not to do it themselves.
From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 05 November 2008 01:40 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Martin read the post I put up from the Pakistan government. Also please at least give me the courtesy of finding something that disputes what I said instead of you just shooting off your mouth remotely.

I mentioned it because I think this is an absolutely terrifying development for people around the world. I also think we may find in the future that the cross border flights that the Pakistan government is complaining about are originating from the air field in Kandahar that our Canadian troops are defending.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 05 November 2008 01:47 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Air force recruiting new drone pilots


quote:
Scrambling to meet commanders' insatiable demands for unmanned aircraft, the Air Force is launching two new training programs, including an experimental one that would churn out up to 1,100 desperately needed pilots to fly the drones over Iraq and Afghanistan.
...

A senior Air Force officer told The Associated Press that by the end of September 2011, the goal is to have 50 unmanned combat air patrols operating 24 hours a day, largely over Iraq and Afghanistan. Currently there are 30.

Besides the new test program, Sheldon said the Air Force is planning to shift about 100 manned-aircraft pilots directly from training into jobs flying the drones. The unmanned aircraft are mostly Predators - hunter-killer planes that fly in the war zone but are operated by pilots sitting at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada.
...

Predators are playing a crucial role on the battlefields in Iraq and Afghanistan, providing real-time surveillance video to troops on the ground, targeting and firing Hellfire anti-tank missiles at militants, and homing in on enemy efforts to plant roadside bombs.

Earlier this year, for example, a Predator -probably one operated by the CIA - fired on a suspected terrorist safehouse in Pakistan's north Waziristan region, killing Abu Laith al-Libi, a key al Qaeda leader.


This is scary stuff and I wish it was propaganda.

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 05 November 2008 02:33 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They extend a curt denial and odd regret for bombing families to death, and then again when they bomb the funeral. The whole world knows who the real terrorists are.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 05 November 2008 02:52 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kropotkin, thanks for posting this. It is scary indeed.
As for our disagreement, it is of little importance. I maintain there seems to be a distinction between firing a missile - which a drone can do, yes - and bombing a village for five hours which seems to require manned aircraft (or ground artillery). Either way, well-paid U.S. and/or Canadian human beings are pulling the triggers in our name - and soon under direct orders from President Obama.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 05 November 2008 03:01 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Afghanistan: Malalai Joya versus Washington's warlords (+ video) August

Malalai says there needs to be a war crimes tribunal for Afghanistan. Her own life is in constant danger wherever she travels to because she speaks out against the U.S. puppet regime and warlords who are "brothers in creed of the Taliban"(RAWA)

quote:
Did you know that?

Apparently, the U.S. troops are here to fight the Taliban, but on the other hand they are fully supporting the Northern Alliance commanders, who are the main seller of weapons and ammunitions to the Taliban.



From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

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