On New Year's I met this guy. He's an exchange student from Russia and he's intelligent (doing grad studies in physics), attractive (especially with that accent...yum), fun to be with, and totally sexy.

We've been getting together a couple times a week, but he has pretty limited English and consequently it's only the last little while that we've started to talk politics. You see, on my wall I have the rant you've all heard . . .

"Because a women's work is never done or is unpaid or underpaid or repetitive or boring, etc, etc, etc, we are part of the women's liberation movement."

He read it, and he thought it was funny!

That was a few weeks ago, and we didn't have a chance to talk about it then because we were just heading out the door. Then, last night I had a couple glasses of wine and decided to bring it up again (alcohol does fun things ).

During the course of the conversation that followed, it became clear (even with his basic English) that he believes that women and men are fundamentally different, and that he doesn't believe discrimination against women exists in our society. In fact, he brought up the whole "reverse discrimination" thing, and said it was way harder for a white male to get a position in the physics department than it is for a woman or a minority. He then proceeded to say that there was nothing wrong with having more men than women in the Sciences, because men naturally are better at Math and Science. Grrrrrr.

The problem is, I kinda still want to keep seeing him, even if he thinks that way. I'm only 21 and I see dating right now just as entertainment. I don't want anything serious, we're totally just fooling around and having fun.

And part of me likes debates and winning people over to my side, and I think maybe I see him as a challenge, even though I know it's oh-so-bad to want to "change" someone.

But, then another part of me says that if he disagrees with something so fundamental to me that it's somehow "wrong" to see him. It's as though I feel this obligation as a feminist to only date feminist men. Oh, and only lefties too. And only vegetarians. And . . . (the list is pretty long). *sigh*

Has anyone had experience dating "non-feminist" men or people with totally different political beliefs? Is it okay or does it slowly eat away at your soul until you feel all empty inside ?Am I a totally horrible person if I keep seeing him? Even if it's just totally casually??

Argh, I'm so confused!! Helllp me . . .

[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: animal ]

Oh, and if he's so anti-feminist, make HIM pay for all your dates.

Although, come to think of it, I don't know how long I could stand to even be in the company of a man who thinks men are naturally better at math and science. Maybe keep dating him as long as he keeps his political opinions to himself. If you find he starts to try to needle you on a regular basis by making stupid comments like that, then dump his ass. You don't need the aggravation and there are lots of nice guys out there.

[ 16 February 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]

As long as you're sure you're not tipping towards the "I can change him" position, then it's fair for you to be feeling that you're young and this is useful because it's life, y'know?

Sometime, if you're feeling a little bolshie, you might try Michelle's suggestion: just wait for him to pay for everything.

In my legal practice right now, I do see numerous cases of how recent Russian immigrant males think about "their" women. It is not at all uncommon to "tail" the women being dated, and to cross-examine them about what they said to the salesman in the store, or to the TTC driver as they got on the bus. Much conflict arises in this way.

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Has anyone had experience dating "non-feminist" men or people with totally different political beliefs? Is it okay or does it slowly eat away at your soul until you feel all empty inside?

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Yeah. I spent 5 years with a non-feminist man. He was also a member of the Church of Satan, which is basically all about Libertarianism, but with funny costumes. It made me a bit crazy indeed.

edited to say: If it's just casual, it is totally different, though

[ 16 February 2003: Message edited by: audra estrones ]

Having been in a serious relationship with someone who started off progressive and ended up 6 years later arguing that my feminism and things like gender parity was all about revenge and punishing men, it can eat away at you (huge wondering if I could be with someone who couldn't understand my position on such fundamental issues, coupled with our hugely divergent views on human nature), but since these were more theoretical than practical issues, I wouldn't have never ended the relationship over it. He still did the dishes and saw me as a competent person.

Most sexist men know enough to pretend at the beginning of a relationship, then introduce their piggishness later on in a relationship (after they feel that they no longer have to be on their best behaviour and after they have a better idea of what is acceptable and unacceptable to you).

Overt disrespect is one thing, but the Russian fellow stating that '"there are differences between men and women" gets him labelled as sexist.

For example, if I opine that women aren't as good at sports as men, am I automatically thrown on the "non-feminist" heap?

[ 16 February 2003: Message edited by: Wankity ]

It has always been one of my least favourite parts of the male female thing. If a young man is sensitive and generally has a feminist view of the world he is often seen as inferior to the macho guy who excites the phermones and hormones of otherwise intelligent women. Can anyone say mixed messages.

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Beware of "just casual" relationships.
You can decided to be just casual on day and find yourself head-over-heels, stupidly and humiliatingly in love, the next.Or, you may be just casual, but you have no control of the other person's feelings.

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By that logic, we shouldn't talk to anyone, because our and their feelings are so unpredictable. I mean, its well pointed out that you can't predict at times who you'll fall for (I certainly didn't think I'd get 6.5 years from the cute guy who worked across from my store and gave me free ice teas), but just seems a tad...overblown of a warning.

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If a man can't even pretend to respect a women (and, as a necessary prerequisite, respect all women) when he is trying to get you into bed (or succeeding), he's probably even more of a neandrathal than you think.

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From animal's post, I didn't get that this guy was disrespectful, just that he disagreed and had some (really quite stupid) justifications. Sexist men can treat women well, though often they don't, but I've seen hurtful and callous and disrespectful behaviour from enough supposedly "enlightened" men to know that sometimes people who agree with your politics are still jerks, and sometimes those who don't are really great people. That said, animal, if he doesn't respect you, runrunrunrunrun!

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what exactly contitutes a..."non-feminist" man?

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Um, this:

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he doesn't believe discrimination against women exists in our society

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if I opine that women aren't as good at sports as men, am I automatically thrown on the "non-feminist" heap?

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We all can acknowledge that there are physical and physiological differences between men and women, some of which are not completely clear at this time in history, but that these difference, whatever they are, are socially constructed into the masculinity and femininity we know today. It is not a natural manifestation that I knew how to clean a bathroom at 20 and my partner didn't, and to assert that it is is non-feminist.

As well, while men as a group may be better as certain physical endeavors than women as a group, Billy Jean King still kicked Bobby Riggs' ass, and I still did better than the vast majority of men (and women) in my math and science courses. Testicles don't mean you can play hockey or do math, and ovaries don't mean you can't.

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If a young man is sensitive and generally has a feminist view of the world he is often seen as inferior to the macho guy who excites the phermones and hormones of otherwise intelligent women. Can anyone say mixed messages.

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Can anyone say sweeping generalization? And who says these women are feminists? or that there aren't other issues they're dealing with (i.e. self esteem)? And who says that this excuses men from taking responsibility for their own actiosn and beahviours (and maybe their inability to find someone too??)? Weak weak argument, on par with the "men are naturally better at math and science," IMHO.

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It has always been one of my least favourite parts of the male female thing. If a young man is sensitive and generally has a feminist view of the world he is often seen as inferior to the macho guy who excites the phermones and hormones of otherwise intelligent women. Can anyone say mixed messages.

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Bullshit. And quite the generalization coming from the guy who is so sensitive about overgeneralizations. This is the age-old "nice guys finish last because women don't know what they want" argument.

Surprise, there's no consensus among women about what they want from men because all women are different. However, you can be pretty sure that if you're looking for the valedictorian who is also the head cheerleader, then it's likely that she's probably looking for the captain of the football team who's first in the class at the law school, you know?

How many guys were I "buddies" with in high school, average guys, nice guys, who only fell in love with the very pretty, cute girls, never gave more of the average, nice girls a glance, and then wondered why "nice guys finish last"? Lots and lots.

There are lots of women out there who like nice, average guys who treat them with respect instead of acting like a macho boor. Of course, many of us are past our "prime" age of early twenties, and we don't all look like models. And surprisingly enough, we don't all expect our men to look like models or be our pillars of strength. In fact, I personally prefer NOT to date men who are underwear model material, because I'm not particularly attracted to that body type, and I like guys who can listen and be sensitive and kind, and not expect to rule the roost. All it takes is an experience with a boor to set most women straight about how attractive that "veneer of charm" is.

Oh, and before you get all sensitive and upset and claim that I'm generalizing about men's attitudes towards women, I am absolutely NOT generalizing about all men. Lots of men appreciate "average" women and see their inner beauty. But in my experience it usually hasn't been the guys who spend their time whining about how they don't know what women want because "nice guys finish last". Because nice guys who meet nice girls are often a lot more attractive to them when they're not inventing straw feminist women to knock down.

[ 17 February 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Oh, and if he's so anti-feminist, make HIM pay for all your dates.

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You missed that part Michelle.

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world he is oftenseen

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So Michelle what phrase would you like me to use so that it is not an over generalization. Would "sometimes" be more acceptable? Or do you believe that women like I have described do not exist.

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How many guys were I "buddies" with in high school, average guys, nice guys, who only fell in love with the very pretty, cute girls, never gave more of the average, nice girls a glance, and then wondered why "nice guys finish last"? Lots and lots.

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So I will try again using your lqanguage.

Why would you even ask me whether I think women like that don't exist when I very clearly stated, "there's no consensus among women about what they want from men because all women are different"?

And I didn't "miss" that part, I wrote it. I was being facetious. Maybe YOU missed it. If a guy is going to go on about how feminism is all wrong, then maybe he would prefer the good old days when women were supposed to act like "real women" and let the guy pay for everything.

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By that logic, we shouldn't talk to anyone, because our and their feelings are so unpredictable

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As for the warning being overblown - maybe so. Still, violence exists; tragedies happen;...It doesn't cost anything to pay attention to warning signs.

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The warning sign being Russian guys who laugh at feminist posters?

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men who feel humiliated have been known to kill their ex-wives and girlfriends.

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Why don't we put the blame squarely where it belongs here - on the men who do this, not the women who don't see the "signs," since the above really really sounds to me like you're putting the responsibility on the ex-wives and girlfriends. Especially as from animal's post, I haven't seen any indication of what I understand are more generally accepted warning signs of abusive relationships (possessiveness, controlling behaviour, jealousy, threats, manipulation, verbal, emotional or physical abuse, etc.) - why jump to a conclusion that a man from Russia who isn't a feminist is necessarily abusive and a threat to her health?

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On the other hand, believing that men are better at science is not the worst personality defect in the world. People change their opinions as they learn new facts. What they usually don't change is their basic attitude toward other living things. Pay attention to his actions, rather than his words.

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The possibility of violence exists in all cultures. And most violence against women does happen in the context of dating and marriage. Like it or not, PC or not, sexual relationships are a potentially volatile medium.

Blame doesn't come into it. Blame is apportioned only after something bad has happened. To the person who got run over by a bus, it makes no difference whether the bus driver was drunk or whether the victim ran out into the road without looking: blame is irrelevant to the dead.

[ 18 February 2003: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

As nonesuch pointed out, people, when presented with new facts and ideas, may change their minds about things -- if they choose to. What they very rarely (if ever) change are beliefs that are fundamental to their self-image (ie: boys are smarter than girls, therefore I am better than you), or the way they have learned to treat people. And any male is capable of saying the right things, it's the actions that truly tell you what you need to know.

Thinking that men and women are different, or have, in general, differing potential strengths, does not make a man necessarily non-feminist. As long as he does not belittle you or what you believe, there is nothing wrong with having a relationship -- provided you both know where you stand and respect each other.

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men who feel humiliated have been known to kill their ex-wives and girlfriends.

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How the heck does a simple question about dating someone with different beliefs/philosophy/attitude turn into a discussion of partners murdering partners? What does that have to do with animal's question? And why must we assume that the darkest, most evil intents dwell in those who just take a slightly different view?

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You're right, of course. It's my fault for putting the outside chance of violence in there, as possible sequelae to miscommunication, along with hurt feelings and embarrassing scenes.

The most likely thing to happen is argument. Argument can be friendly and stimulating, or circular and frustrating. In any case, both parties may end up knowing a lot more about the other's thought process, and incidentally, about the other sex.

the truth is that feminism is dead
it has been dismantled by the government
the ol' whyt gyz under the guize of being whyt
still have most men believing in their superiority,
women won the vote and in some countries legal equality,
but the power of the media is controlled by the capitalizt zee?
"i am a man who don't see wommin equally
but still you swoon 4 i b sex-ee?"
it is ok to love beyond political boundaree,
but as you do so you become-eh?

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Use him, without discretion.

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What does that mean?? If you disagree with someones beliefs (even if they are wrong as in this case) that you should treat them like crap? Either see him and stand up for your own beliefs in a respectful way, or don't see him. Don't be an ass about it. That's nothing but a cheap booster shot for your own ego.

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No this guy needs to go through the emotional wringer. He needs to plead, crying on the floor. He needs to apologize for all the crimes of man. I am kidding really.

Frankly, my advice is the same as Michelle's, take it easy, don't get caught up in it, maintain distance. At the heart of the matter is the heart, but keep it playful.

Buddy doesn't think women are as capable as men? Great. Get out your wallet buddy because I don't think I'm "capable" of calculating my share of the restaurant tab. Besides which, paying is "men's work".

I'm actually kind of teasing. I likely wouldn't cold-heartedly use the guy - I'd only hang around him if I enjoyed his company other than his politics. But to me, a guy's politics is such an important aspect of his personality that I don't think I could date or sleep with a guy who thought women were inferior. I couldn't connect with a guy like that on ANY level. I don't think I could even date a guy who was right-wing. Because I can't separate a guy's politics from his personality - it's part of who he is. I don't want a guy whose whole world view is based on selfishness and a sense of superiority to people different from himself.

[ 18 February 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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The problem from a male perspective is that feminists who date men ar sending a strong
message to young men that you can be a pig and even the feminists will sleep with you.
No incentive for boys to grow up to be partners.

It has always been one of my least favourite parts of the male female thing. If a young
man is sensitive and generally has a feminist view of the world he is often seen as
inferior to the macho guy who excites the phermones and hormones of otherwise
intelligent women.

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Ah, here we go. Nice guys finish last, and it's your fault, god damn it. My favorite part is that there has to be "an incentive." Why not because it's right, and good?

Here's some thoughts on "the nice guy" in case you haven't been up to taking a critical look inside the emotional politiking of our gender.

"Nice Guys" wrap their whole world and self-worth around the woman and the relationship, putting the woman on a pedestal (which is not necessarily "nice". Many would find it patronizing), and they just go too far. When the woman gets sick of the emotional burden that being responsible for all of your partner's happiness is, the "nice guy" gets dumped. Then, they use the occasion to whine about "nice guys finishing last" and as a convenient oppertunity to further their own misogyny.

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No incentive for boys to grow up to be partners.

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But to me, a guy's politics is such an important aspect of his personality that I don't think I could date or sleep with a guy who thought women were inferior. I couldn't connect with a guy like that on ANY level. I don't think I could even date a guy who was right-wing. Because I can't separate a guy's politics from his personality - it's part of who he is. I don't want a guy whose whole world view is based on selfishness and a sense of superiority to people different from himself.

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Can I play devil's advocate for a moment?

If you re-read animal's original post, the guy didn't say he thought women were inferior -- he said that they were fundamentally different. He also said that men are naturally better at maths and sciences -- there has been some research in brain pattern and developmental differences that supports a *marginal* difference with math/spatial skills and language skills between boys and girls. These two particular points of view are neither unusual nor are they completely unsupported.

Now the lack of discrimination for women and the "poor white guy" thing can be as much a problem of ignorance as it is bloody-mindedness. It doesn't automatically mean he's a misogynist or a jerk -- although it does if he sticks to the position stubbornly, refusing to acknowledge or discuss evidence to the contrary, that's a different matter. But to this point, we don't know that he has. I don't think it's fair to make the assumption he also believes women should be dependent or that they are less intelligent.

While it's true you can't entirely separate a man's politics from his personality, it doesn't automatically make him a complete pain in the ass. It has a lot to do with how he handles and accepts difference. I've met some lefty feminist type guys who were way too inflexible and focused on being right to have a relationship, too. Their belief in the equality of the sexes didn't make them nice guys, either.

I don't know any couples that are on extreme ends of the political spectrum and make it work, and like Michelle, I would have difficulty with that sort of relationship. But I do know women who have relationships with men that do have a level of difference in their politics, and it can work if you are both flexible enough to agree to disagree on some points.

[ 18 February 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

Let's start at the very beginning, it's a very good place to start, doo doo doooo . . . (I know, I'm such a loser!! )

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Oh, and if he's so anti-feminist, make HIM pay for all your dates.

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LOL. Um, cute idea, but no thanks. I have a hard enough time letting a guy open a door for me (if he won't let me return the favour once in a while), I can't even imagine going there.

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I mean, not every movie you go see is a serious arthouse flick, is it? Do you always chose the healthiest thing on the menu?

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Absolutely not! I definitely enjoy the occasional indulgence in a mindless romance or a slice of dark chocolate cheesecake. Mmmmmmm. Beautiful analogy!

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In general, Russian society has been profoundly sexist for a long time. . . In my legal practice right now, I do see numerous cases of how recent Russian immigrant males think about "their" women.

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That seems like a bit of a sweeping generalization, but . . . if it's true that Russian society is sexist, then perhaps it sheds a little light on where my guy is coming from. Of course, he has said about a few things that he doesn't see why anything needs to be different from "the way things were in Russia," so that may be really bad. Hmmmm.

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If I were only to date men who shared my basic principles, I could probably fit them into a small room, and most of them I'd have no interest in anyways. Besides, for a good time, being with a "bad" (ie right wing) boy can be exciting . . . and in the short term, it'll provide a lot of fuel for passion.

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Haha. So sad, so bad, and so true!!!

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Clearly he doesnt respect you as an equal person so why would you continue this? Casual or not he believes you are allowing him to go on believing you are unequal and maybe "proving" his point by putting up with him?

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Whew. I think there's a little too much extrapolation going on here!! I don't think different necessarily means unequal. And I have no reason to suspect he doesn't respect me. If I did, he would have been history long ago.

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I've seen hurtful and callous and disrespectful behaviour from enough supposedly "enlightened" men to know that sometimes people who agree with your politics are still jerks, and sometimes those who don't are really great people. That said, animal, if he doesn't respect you, runrunrunrunrun!

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That's been my experience too. Darn. Wouldn't it be easier if we could just check for a "leftie label" on a potentential partner to see if they were a good pick?

About respect . . . cute story . . . we were goofing around and he made some joke about my attending a protest, and I jokingly said it seemed like he didn't respect my politics, and he got all serious and said that if he didn't he wouldn't be there with me. Awwww.

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There are a couple of steps between talking to someone and having sex with him.

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Really?? That hasn't been my experience!
(Just kidding. Really.)

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Especially with someone from a another culture, who may not share our unspecified assumptions. The man in question is Russian; there is a good chance that he takes sex more seriously than Canadian men of the same age.

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I definitely know what you mean about our "unspecified assumptions"! It's amazing how many things are communicated subtly or are just assumed, which aren't necessarily the same between cultures.

Here's a perfect example . . . he rarely stays the night, which in my books is a sign that a guy is taking things totally casually. Somehow it came up in conversation, and it turns out he never even considered it and "his girls" never slept over in Russia. So, so much for that sign!

If what you say about Russian guys taking things more seriously is true, I think him and I are going to need to have a blunt talk.

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Why jump to a conclusion that a man from Russia who isn't a feminist is necessarily abusive and a threat to her health? I have to say that I find the use of this argument (or really just the specter of violence against women brought up in the context of casual dating) to be pretty offensive. Animal has the right to date, and do whatever else she wishes, with whomever she wishes, and I'm getting a strong morality play from the dent of this argument. More than slightly disturbing in my mind.

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Thanks, swirrlygrrl. I was having much the same reaction myself, but you put it so much more eloquently that I would have! Being aware of cultural differences is one thing, jumping to abuse and murder is another. On the morality issue, I'm lucky enough to not care one bit what other people think is moral or otherwise.

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Darn right, use him. . . I would expect lots in return for fulfilling my end of the bargain.

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I know you must be kidding (at least a bit!), so I won't go into how fundamentally wrong that would be!! I'm just not that kind of a girl, and it would be bad for my Karma.

I like the guy. I'm just not sure if I'm okay with a couple of his political beliefs. Besides, I get plenty from our relationship without any need for cash transactions .

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I don't think I could even date a guy who was right-wing. Because I can't separate a guy's politics from his personality - it's part of who he is. I don't want a guy whose whole world view is based on selfishness and a sense of superiority to people different from himself.

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No offense, but I think that's a little too simplistic. Yes, a guy's politics are a part of who they are, but they're *just* one part. Political views are so complex and varied, so much so that even trying to apply the "right-wing" or "left-wing" label to an individual can be pretty tough.

I've dated an anarchist and an Alliance guy, and some NDs and non-political types too, and from that I've learnt that the stereotypes we tend to use don't necessarily hold true. The images of "selfless" socialist and "selfish and superior" conservative are rather oversimplified.

Whew. That's a lot to digest. Thanks to everyone for your opinions and advice!

[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: animal ]

- Have fun.
- Mind over matter. If you don't mind it doesn't matter!
- If things seem to be becoming more serious, then you might need to re-visit the philosophical differences.

Nobody has relationships where both people agree on everything. The deciding factor is what the differences are, and whether both people are willing to accept those differences.

If you really want him then make sure he's the sort that can agree to disagree. Married couples often disagree but as long as he doesn't have any objection to you having a mind of your own then he's really not that bad. You are a grown woman why do you need our permission to date anyone you want to date.

So ask him his opinion on whether women could fight a man the same size or bigger and not get her butt kicked. If he says the same old line then maybe I could help you there.

I remember getting in a fight about feminism many times but this one particular fight I got so frustrated that I told him in the heat of the moment that if he dosn't find SOME way to be a feminist, it was over.

He went scrambling and came up with something he heard from another fellow Libertarian called "i-feminism". There was a website I had to check out and it somehow related to Iyn Rand. It was pure garbage and I told him so. Yes... the relationship ended a few short months later.