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Author Topic: unions aren't history
2 ponies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11096

posted 22 September 2006 07:49 AM      Profile for 2 ponies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I got writing after reading this thread:
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=001516

I disagree with Billie Bob’s (BB) narrow “analysis” for slow growth in the Canadian economy. If there is slow growth in the Canadian economy (it depends how you define “slow” or “small” – under 5% maybe?) it’s due to a number of factors. It can hardly be blamed solely on unions & unionized workers. The fact that Ford & GM are decreasing their workforce & losing sales is largely due to a lack of innovation in those companies, as opposed to lazy, inefficient & non-productive workers. Certainly labour costs are high in manufacturing industries because we have high wages in North America & other “advanced” economies. What a lot of big producers are doing is simply shifting the location of production to take advantage of lower labour costs when they need to be making strategic investments into more efficient factors of production; more technology, training for their workers, etc. To blame the contraction of poorly managed auto-makers’ North American operations solely on unions is narrow-minded, obtuse & lacks a broad understanding of economics & business for that matter; I haven’t heard such a narrow-minded statement since my first year of business school.

Our biggest problem/obstacle in Canada as far as economic growth goes is the lack of investment into education for our workers. This is now being exacerbated by industries such as oil & gas which don’t require a lot of formal education; e.g. you don’t need an engineering degree to be a roughneck, you don’t even need a grade 12 – just your H2S course, rig safety, etc & you can make $150k/year if you’re willing to work until your back wears out. The point being, there’s not a lot of incentive to acquire more education & learn new efficiencies, how to be innovative, etc. While inefficient, backward thinking companies like Ford & GM are decreasing NA production & shifting it to lower labour markets, companies like Toyota & Honda have actually expanded production in NA, even in Canada by building factories. The big three were protected by the Canada US Auto pact for close to four decades. Once the pact was struck down by the WTO & these manufacturers had to compete with efficient, innovative Asian companies like Toyota & Honda….they couldn’t. A corporate culture lacking innovation, investment in training & investment in more efficient technologies within GM & Ford can hardly be blamed on unionized workers. Point the finger at management!

Steppenwolf (SA), your analysis of the East Asian Financial Crisis touches on some points that many reputable economists attribute to the causes, such as private investors pulling billions or dollars out of East Asia at a moment’s notice & suffocating the economy; the countries that were affected had large private current account deficits though & their insistence on pegging their currencies to the US dollar didn’t help either. I agree with you that most of those problems were caused by greed & cronyism. True free marketers don’t manipulate economic systems & governments to do their bidding; they compete in a free, unrestricted market with their own money, without trade barriers, without government subsidies, without protectionism, etc. Our economic system doesn’t operate that way, so it can’t be called a true free economy, & most of the people who are referred to as capitalist aren’t true free traders. A Republican Senator who votes for farm subsidies & to maintain import tariffs is not a free trader, neither are the pathetic business people he is representing (who are usually contributing stupid amounts of money to his campaign war chest). They’re cronies & they’re pitiful because they only get rich & stay rich on the backs of other people by using an unfair system that’s been built to protect those that are truly lazy.

People who honestly believe in the free market are somewhat like social democrats or socialists in that they believe everyone deserves to achieve “wealth” & happiness; wealth really is just access to resources. The difference is how to achieve it; people on the left tend to believe that wealth & happiness for all will best be achieved through government intervention & income redistribution, & free marketers (true free marketers) are also idealists who believe that a completely free market where the only protections needed are property rights, is the best system for everyone to achieve the wealth they need & desire. Another big difference in these ideologies is “Equality of result” (leftists) & Equality of Opportunity (free marketers). I’m sure US aristocrats who inherit millions of dollars, go to the best private schools & stay rich by networking in country clubs don’t believe in equality of result or equality of opportunity; they believe in protectionism to stay rich.

Also Steppenwolf, some products have gone down in price. Yes the overall cost of living has increased & has done so for decades; few economists claim that prices in the entire market will decrease. They typically claim that true free trade & competition keep prices lower than they would be under closed markets & balance the lowest price possible with a supply that is based on demand. I stated that because someone here will undoubtedly say “well, nationalizing industries & government regulation keeps prices lower” & yes it can do that, but it doesn’t allow for a realistic supply of a good or service; if a price is kept artificially low, there won’t be enough supply. Any how, several products have gone down in real price such as long distance telephone charges, the cost of shoes (I can get a size 13 now for $25, fifteen years ago I couldn’t pay less than $50) & numerous other consumer goods. Other costs have risen drastically, such as petroleum, housing, & other natural resources. My point being that it’s a gross generalization to say that the increase in the cost of living means that all goods & services have risen in price, because they haven’t; some have risen in price drastically, some have risen moderately, some have actually decreased & everything in between.

One thing I seem to agree with Steppenwolf on is that unions are important because every individual has the right to choose if he or she wants to participate in a collective. And once they’ve chosen to do so, their rights are violated if a greedy crook tires to bust unions or doesn’t respect their choice to bargain as a group. Unions do help to protect people from exploitation & being abused & do create benefit for all of us; e.g. none of us would have legislated paid vacation without unions, or paid sick days, or drug benefits, etc. There are some problems with unions that I won’t bother getting into – but no system is perfect. And you raise a number of examples Steppenwolf where people working together have achieved wonderful things.

In closing, why is Billie Bob gone exactly? Was he removed from babble & if so, why? Is speech here only free if we agree with each other? If he’s been punted because he makes ignorant right-wing generalizations….how do we convince people with different views that our views are more logical if we can’t debate with them?

[ 22 September 2006: Message edited by: 2 ponies ]


From: Sask | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
keglerdave
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5839

posted 23 September 2006 10:11 AM      Profile for keglerdave     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The biggest reason Ford and GM are in trouble, isn't because of the union workers there, the trouble begins in the fact of not understanding basic economics. Both companies continued to pour resources into the SUV market, even with the skyrocketing price of gasoline. Chrysler at least recognized a shifting market preference and while it does have its Dodge and Jeep lines, it also has its chrysler lines as well. The sedan and compact markets that Ford and GM might have had were abandoned all in the effort to build a bigger SUV.

But what strikes me as somewhat funny, but predominantly hypocritical, is the fact that the Japanese and other asian automakers have free access to the north american market, while at the same time, slamming the door shut on the north american automakers, and for that fact north american anything, in terms of accessing the japanese market.

Its no different than NAFTA, CAFTA, and any other free trade agreement in the north and south american economic zone, meant to benefit only one country... the good ol US of A. What alot of people don't understand, is that the people who build things in north america, generate the economy for north america. You offshore or outsource those jobs, and sooner or later, you have no market place for the goods coming back to be consumed, because no one's making any money.

It's a form of capitalist cannibalization.


From: New Westminster BC | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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Babbler # 7791

posted 23 September 2006 10:21 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I read that the big pickups and SUVs were Ford's biggest moneymakers, at leat until recently. The profit margins on these big vehicles far outsrtipped what the company made on their smaller sedans. With the hike in gas prices that we saw over the past year or so, suddenly the demand for these vehicles dropped. IIRC, the big F150 truck still leads truck sales in North America.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged

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