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Israel says the decision by diplomats not to call for a halt to its Lebanon offensive at a Middle East summit has given it the green light to continue.[...]

Speaking on Israeli army radio, [Justice Minister Haim] Ramon - a close confidant of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert - said "everyone understands that a victory for Hezbollah is a victory for world terror".

He said that in order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops move in.

He added that Israel had given the civilians of southern Lebanon ample time to quit the area and therefore anyone still remaining there can be considered Hezbollah supporters.

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said.

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Originally posted by venus_man:
I’d say that the world should not only verbally support the operation but start sending troops and ammunition as well as good will humanitarian aid to people of Lebanon.

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I agree, venus_man. What time does your ship leave?

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That is well illustrated by the planning and execution of the current war. This was based on the assumption that if we cause terrible suffering to the population, they will rise up and demand the removal of Hizbullah. A minimal understanding of mass psychology would suggest the opposite. The killing of hundreds of Lebanese civilians, belonging to all the ethno-religious communities, the turning of the lives of the others into hell, and the destruction of the life-supporting infrastructure of Lebanese society will arouse a groundswell of fury and hatred - against Israel, and not against the heroes, as they see them, who sacrifice their lives in their defense.

The result will be a strengthening of Hizbullah, not only today, but for years to come. Perhaps that will be the main outcome of the war, more important than all the military achievements, if any. And not only in Lebanon, but throughout the Arab and Muslim world.

Faced with the horrors that are shown on all television and many computer screens, world opinion is also changing. What was seen at the beginning as a justified response to the capture of the two soldiers now looks like the barbaric actions of a brutal war-machine. The elephant in a china shop.

Thousands of e-mail distribution lists have circulated a horrible series of photos of mutilated babies and children. At the end, there is a macabre photo: jolly Israeli children writing "greetings" on the artillery shells that are about to be fired. Then there appears a message: "Thanks to the children of Israel for this nice gift. Thanks to the world that does nothing. Signed: the children of Lebanon and Palestine."

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Yesterday's assault on the Israeli army in Bint Jbeil proved that. The problem is that the US sees this slaughterhouse as an "opportunity" rather than a tragedy, a chance to humble Hizbollah supporters in Tehran and help to shape the "new Middle East" of which Ms Rice spoke so blithely this week.

It is Israel which is running out of time in southern Lebanon. Its attacks have for the fifth time in 30 years placed it in the dock for war crimes in Lebanon. The toll of Lebanon's civilian casualties has reached 400. And still the US will not intervene to prevent the carnage, even to call for a 24-hour ceasefire to allow the 3,000 civilians still trapped between Qlaya and Bint Jbeil - who include a number of foreign nationals - to flee.

The only civilian walking those frightening roads to Qlaya was a goatherd, guiding his animals around the huge bomb craters in the tarmac. Talking to him, it emerged that he was almost stone deaf and obviously could not hear the bombs. In this, it seemed, he has a lot in common with Condoleezza Rice.

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He is a Sunni Muslim and his family have lived in Southern Lebanon for many years. In 1983 during the Israeli invasion, he had 2 Aunts that were involved in attacks... The first was going to a well when a stray Israeli rocket landed just feet away from her. He body was unrecognizable. The second was only 7 years old when she was infront of her house. 2 men on motorcycles zipped by with israeli's hot on their tail. A bullet intended for the motorcycle hit her in the head. She survived and now bears a giant 'birthmark' on her forehead from where the bullet hit. You don't seem to realize this Venus_man, these are PEOPLE dying in this conflict. Not some misc 'arab terrorist' like you seem to feel... These are people like you and me that have nothing to do with the conflict who are dying.

Currently, anyone with a Canadian citizenship has gotten out of the country. He was commenting on the number of relatives that he's never seen before that are now here living with him and his family... With the exception with his 65 yearold grandparents, who do not hold Canadian citizenship. My friends father stayed behind to look after them... Their village is well within the southern lebanon region that is being assaulted. The last he had heard from either of them (he got quite obviously agitated when he described this)... The only gas station within miles for this village was one of the first hit, an Israeli missile destroyed their 2 vehicles, the 2 roads out of town have multiple craters in them, and their front lawn is covered in leaflets saying we'll kill you if you don't get out now. Now their huddled in their basements without food or water awaiting the attacks... I guess when you've watched 2 of your daughters hit by stray fire, watching bombs fall in your yard isn't anything special.

It was very interesting to hear his point of view regarding the politics. As a Sunni, he is very anti-Hizbollah... Even as far as comparing them to the KKK. When the Israeli's first attacked, him along with many other Sunni Muslims (most his family echoed this), they supported Israels tactics and hoped they saw the return of their captured soldiers. I was kinda surprised by this comparisson... He completely hates Hizbollah and wants their destruction.

But after the first 2 days, this opinion changed. What was first thought to be an attack on Hizbollah quickly became an assault on Lebanese citizens in general. He described it as a 'genocide' attempt, noting that most targets are not Christian... They are muslim (Sunni/Shi'a regardless). "This isn't a war to destroy Hizbollah, the is genocide against the Lebanese people".

added:

We ended the conversation on the situation in Iraq... and he commented on 600 dead Lebanese in 15 days of fighting and the world is up in arms... 1000 dead in Iraq per day, with atleast 1/4 of those showing signs of torture prior to their deaths, and nobody seems to care. Baghdad is in complete and utter civil war and the Americans are powerless but to watch. I'd have to verify the source, but he mentioned the casualty count within Iraq was 30k for the month of June and it threatens to become worse and worse.

It was interesting to hear his view on why... It's not the spread of democracy, infact democracy was something he much desired (depsite being a minority Sunni). The problem was the ideals the the US brought along with the democracy or 'complete free will' that has caused much of the destablization. Our culture bans nudity on the streets... Why can't their society ban what they feel is inappropriate? He thinks it beyond hypocritical for the US society to ban abortion, yet not allow Iraqi citizens to make the cultural 'bans' that they wanted. I hadn't heard that view prior.

Going on, he said... For to be able to live with complete free will 20% of the worlds population needs as much as 80% of the resources. The US's spread of democracy is also spreading this free will consumerism... The 80% of the population consuimg 20% of the resources cannot have the American 'free will' ideology, simply from lack of resources. Spreading Democracy is great, spreading the consumerism 'free will' is not.

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

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An Arab diplomat who took part in the meetings said that in fact the US had support from Britain and Canada, diluting the extent of its isolation.

"The Canadians took a very strong position condemning Hezbollah and not saying a word about Israel. The others were concerned about humanitarian problems," he added.

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Now that the Israeli Justice Minister has declared that all villages in Southern Lebanon must be flattened, and all civilians remaining there are legitimate targets as presumptive terrorists, does anyone know what are considered as the boundaries of S. Lebanon?

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Is this your goal-to offend people, to disguise them?

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I beleive the goal would be to show people like yourself that this isn't simply a war on a terrorist organization like Israel continually says it is... Much more than Hizbollah is being targetted, citizens and civilian infrastructure are right up there. This is akin to Toronto being mass bombarded in response for what a small group of Calgarians did.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing, can justify the taking of these innocent young lives.

They deserved to live. Grow up. Marry. Have children.

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Do you have fetish for the images of the dead? Some may be offended by them you know.

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Here is another terrorist pulverized by the brave Israeli war machine:

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Originally posted by Robert MacBain:

They deserved to live. Grow up. Marry. Have children.

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They also deserved to not marry or have children.

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]

Speaking of birth pangs, found this interesting:

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The neocon resurgence

The delusional US mindset that made the Iraq war a disaster has resurfaced in Lebanon

Sidney Blumenthal
Thursday July 27, 2006
The Guardian

Once again the Bush administration is floating on a wave of euphoria. Israel's offensive against Hizbullah in Lebanon has liberated the utopian strain of neoconservatism that had been traduced by Iraq's sectarian civil war. And the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, has propelled herself forward as chief cheerleader. "What we're seeing here," she said, "are the birth pangs of a new Middle East." At every press conference she repeats the phrase "a new Middle East" as though its incantation is magical.

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Originally posted by venus_man:
F.M.: Do you have fetish for the images of the dead? Some may be offended by them you know. Is this your goal-to offend people, to disguise them?

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It's their "disguise" that needs to come off. Often what people take the most "offense" to, are the things that remind them of areas in their subconcious where they'd rather not tread. If the images of people murdered by the various warmongerers in this world "offend" you, that is good. It should anger you to have to look at that. But look you should, and look hard, and ask yourself, "What if it were me, or my brother, or sister, or mother, or father?" There was a guy from Northern Israel/Southern Lebanon who used to say "Do unto others" - not a bad thought.

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What are you trying to achieve by showcasing these images? A tear in our eyes?

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Hopefully. But you're right, tears of "sentimentality" are not the right ones. The tears that arise from understanding our collective and individual failures to be just and moral to one another and ourselves are what are important.

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"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee..."

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John Donne

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

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Is this your goal-to offend people, to disguise them?

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It's to remove a degree or two of separation between us and them. The vast majority of those being killed in Lebanon are innocent people. In fact, Israel has killed about (last I checked) 8 civilians for every 1 hezbollah militant. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by memory) Hezbollah has killed about 1 civilian for every 1 IDF soldier.

The IDF is doing a far more efficent job killing civilians than the side that is TRYING to kill civilians! Additionally, the IDF supposedly have precision bombing methods, while Hezbollah has dummy missles. The IDF and the Israeli executive don't give a flying f**k about Lebanese civilians.

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Dead Canadians? "Don't worry about it," Harper tells Israel. 'Kill away."

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Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

You support those who took those lives. You justify their murderous actions. Why are you offended by them? They are just terrorists aren't they? All Arabs and muslims are terrorists aren't they? Isn't that how such carnage is justified?

Here is another terrorist pulverized by the brave Israeli war machine.

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You have just proved my point. see above.

[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: venus_man ]

None of these innocents -- Israeli or Lebanese -- deserved to die.

They all bear witness to the human cost of war.

I think though that the handling of the evacuation from Lebanon will more than make up for any loss of domestic supoport due to his support. Most polls, letters to editors and radio calls, as well as anyone I've spoken to, were satisfied with the evacuation. Additionally, most were disgusted by what the media portrayed of the evacuation - people being rescued in a multibillion dollar effort for free complaining about lack of air conditioning. This may not have been the actual reality, but it was certainly the media reality.

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FM, I hate to nitpick ( ) , but it IS bad form to place something Harper hasn't actually said if he within quotation marks, even if it is what he effectively said.

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You have just proved my point. see above.

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[ 27 July 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

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Yes, I did, if your point is that you are deeply ashamed and remorseful at defending the targetting of innocent civilians in a war that represents a massive collective punishment not witnessed in the modern world since the 1940s.

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My suspiscions put Bint Jbiel as the main reason for this declaration. We'll go through a lil timeline to understande everything.

0 hour - The initial invasion was ~ Monday (hard to get an exact time).

24 hour - Israeli media reported the town captured (some casualties, mostly dead terrorists of course). Claimed a major victory vs Hizbollah and stated it was a morale and logistics blow to the Hizbollah.

48 hour - Hizbollah launched a surprise attack claiming the lives of several IDF soldiers (reports vary based on whos reporting).

72 hour - Brings us about to today... Consistant fighting throughout the city streets. Continued IDF losses.

The reason for this is the geo layout of the city of Bint Jbiel. The city of 45k is really compacted in a valley... Most roads are no more than a meter or 2 wide, and rarely straight for more than a block... It is a giant maze. Israeli tanks are unable to enter (without reducing buildings to rubble atleast), and the IDF forces are forced to dismount and enter a city that Hizbollah knows like the back of their hands. Hence the casualty count and the intensity of the fighting (and the tactical advantage guerilla forces have in the area).

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Additionally, most were disgusted by what the media portrayed of the evacuation

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The media is out to attack harper and his current gov't regardless of whether they deserve it... Admittadely they most often deserve it, but this was one of the cases where it wasn't required and too be honest the media looked pretty foolish for this one.

Look at the arguement - US, UK, and several other nations had already evactuated around 1k people before a single Canadian was evacuated. What the media doesn't tell you is they were evacuated onto military ships, such as an aircraft carrier, that are there for the 'war on terror'. Canada, not being involved in said 'war in terror' in Iraq, doesn't have a whole bunch of military ships in the region... I found the mainstay of the medias portrayal exceedingly biased interested in simply attacking harper as opposed to presenting actual facts on the issue.