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"It’s about time a feminist group got a little love from the mainstream," says Kathleen Hanna, defending Le Tigre’s move to a major label. "It made sense on a lot of levels, and all of our friends and close fans have been incredibly supportive."

From indie riot grrrl radical with ’90s punks Bikini Kill to major electro-punk agitator with Le Tigre (est. 1999), Hanna has changed her tune in some respects, and given the opportunity to expand her band’s audience, she and her cohorts Johanna Fateman and J.D. Samson eagerly hopped aboard Strummer/Universal, home to the Rapture and the Mars Volta. Le Tigre’s first two LPs, Le Tigre and Feminist Sweepstakes, and their EPs, From the Desk of Mr. Lady and Remix, were released by Mr. Lady, a modest indie label founded in 1996 by Tammy Rae Carland and the Butchies’ Kaia Wilson. Based in Durham, North Carolina, the label supported a slew of female, feminist and/or queer acts such as Tami Hart and Electrelane before folding last June.

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I don't mind that they've signed to a major label, but has anyone else noticed the car commercials playing Le Tigre?

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Exhibit A:

But....

It always seemed "wrong" somehow to admire such a staunch feminist on an asthetic level. It always seemed to me that she'd probably reserve her finest venom for fools swooning over her because of her looks.

Am I a swooning-fool worth dismissal? Or...is it okay to admire a feminist for her looks as well as her ideals?

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Am I a swooning-fool worth dismissal? Or...is it okay to admire a feminist for her looks as well as her ideals?

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Am I a swooning-fool worth dismissal? Or...is it okay to admire a feminist for her looks as well as her ideals?

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Oh, Lord. Why do people complicate their lives with ethical conundrums such as this? In the sphere of influence that feminism encompasses, your own personal tastes and sense of esthetics is not all that relevant. I don't want to be insulting or dismissive, but in a discussion about feminism, your conflicts about your feelings are just immaterial.

So you like pretty women. I like pretty men. In the grand scheme of things, it means nothing.

[ 21 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Oh, Lord. Why do people complicate their lives with ethical conundrums such as this?

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Actually...it's not exactly something that keeps me awake at night. I didn't really consider it an ethical conumdrum...more of a passing thought that would occassionaly cross my mind.

Basically, I'd see a picture of Kathleen Hanna and think, "pretty." Considering that she's an artist who doesn't seem to expressly use her sexuality as a means for greater exposure (no pun intended), I'd wonder what her take on this form of superfiscial "celeb-worship" might be.

Considering Kathleen Hanna's name came up here, on a whim I threw this out because I was curious on what other people's takes might be.

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In the sphere of influence that feminism encompasses, your own personal tastes and sense of esthetics is not all that relevant.

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I was aware I was being glib. And I wasn't foolish enough to presume that my personal feelings were particularly relevent within the realm of feminism. I think you read to much into something that was simply tossed-off. If I was being too flippant compared to what you consider to be the appropriate tone of this thread, then my apologies.

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I don't want to be insulting or dismissive, but in a discussion about feminism, your conflicts about your feelings are just immaterial.

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Naw. I'm not insulted, nor am I conflicted about my feelings. I was simply curious about how that type of "appreciation" might be interpreted.

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So you like pretty women. I like pretty men. In the grand scheme of things, it means nothing.

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Le Tigre seems to half-admit that they did it for the money, but they still try to walk the fence by saying stuff like

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"It’s about time a feminist group got a little love from the mainstream,"

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As if the music industry is becoming feminist. They're just doing what they always do: try to make a buck off of music that is underground, counter-culture, and cool.

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Naw. I'm not insulted, nor am I conflicted about my feelings. I was simply curious about how that type of "appreciation" might be interpreted.

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No one's going to explain to you how to deal with women in the feminist forum. This isn't an Agony Aunt column.

[ 21 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

That said, the new album is a lot pop-ier, and not as political as the old stuff. I do like it, but the lack of overtly feminist tracks, considering it's the first release on a major lable, concerns me. In fact, I don't even think the word "feminist" is used in any of the lyrics.

That said, considering Kathleen Hanna's the person that started the riot grrrl year-long media blackout, and that it's their band and they can do whatever they want - I trust their judgement.

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No one's going to explain to you how to deal with women in the feminist forum. This isn't an Agony Aunt column.

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You misinterpret my intent once again. I wasn't looking for someone to explain to me "how to deal with women," just interested in hearing other prespectives. I thought possibly someone might offer an insight I might not have readily considered. I didn't imagine my intent would be that difficult to grasp.

I think it is important to question ourselves, our perceptions of "true" feminists... Challenging ourselves to understand our own positions in the social relations of power adds to feminists' understanding of how oppression is articulated. So, am I less of a feminist if I am a stripper? (As Kathleen Hanna used to be, to refute what someone said about her not exploiting her sexuality for gains...) Am I less of a feminist if I am in the military? What about if I am in a monogamous relationship with a man? What if I get in a fight with another woman? I think these are all important questions for feminists... So I can see how someone should ask, am I less of a feminist for merely appreciating another woman's physical beauty?

Most of these questions came from Christine Overall's "A Feminist I: Reflections from Academia."

Y'know, language sometimes imposes differences between women: liberal vs. radical vs. whatever... Am I less of a feminist if I work within patriarchal institutions? I mean, I gotta live my life somehow... And it's all well and good that feminist theorists like Catherine Mackinnon argue that all heterosexual sex is non-consensual, by virtue of patriarchal social relations of power, to a certain degree, but she admits that she is married to a man. Does this make her less of a feminist? Does the fact that female athletes accept corporate sponsorships make them lesser feminists? I dunno.

So we impose these divisions, but in some cases we cannot ignore these divisions, because I know that kissing my (male) partner in public will go unquestioned, whereas public displays of affection from queers incites backlash...

I know I'm on a wild rant here, but for those of you still with me, I'm basically questioning my objectification of other women... Are they "others"? Are they allies? Are some more allies than others? Who decides? Why? and how? Where are my own biases? How do I benefit from power and privilege? How do I objectify other women? Can I even do that and call myself a feminist?

Women were to focus solely on the perceived "power imbalance" in male-female relations, according to feminists, nursing every grievance against men and utterly and disengenuously ignoring or denying the sexual power women have over men.

Human beings, male and female, will be repelled eventually by philosphies grounded on hate and exclusion. Feminism has long been a complete catastrophe for women, due to its rejection of biological realities, its inherent rejection and denigration of men, its willingness to torture logic and reason, and its malignantly exclusive focus on power, rather than love, communication, justice and trust. A sad corollorary of this argument is that men too, have lost the promise of a world more shaped by genuine female wisdom.

OK -- onto the original post. I'm scared of a new Le Tigre. I thought their initial release was OK. I prefer Kathleen Hannah's Julie Ruin album, and much prefer, Bikini Kill's Reject All American.

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Originally posted by looney:
Early feminism, (and I'm old enough to remember, even if I'm a man), was mainly about sexual liberation - the right of a woman to engage in sex on her own terms. Somehow the movement got hi-jacked by man-hating and fear and disavowal of sexuality. Even that most natural and fundamental of human phenomena, a man being sexual aroused by a woman, had to be discredited, and was re-named as "objectification" of women.

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Well, I'd have to differ with the feminism being synonymous with the sexual revolution, which wasn't actually all it was cracked up to be, liberation-wise for women. Great for men, though.

The objectification, though, goes back to Freud -- who actually thought women most certainly WERE inferior to men. Much feminist theory dating back to the '60s had bases in Freud, and much continues to now. Reasonable? Probably not, but don't blame feminists for objectification, blame Freud. It was his idea.

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Women were to focus solely on the perceived "power imbalance" in male-female relations, according to feminists, nursing every grievance against men and utterly and disengenuously ignoring or denying the sexual power women have over men.

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There were power imbalances between men and women, and there still are in many cases. More so in the early days of the Second Wave. Women didn't have access to higher levels of education or career opportunities -- why wouldn't they struggle to change this? Sorry, making hubby beg for it pales in comparison to bringing home a decent paycheque, or having some autonomy in your life.

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Human beings, male and female, will be repelled eventually by philosphies grounded on hate and exclusion. Feminism has long been a complete catastrophe for women, due to its rejection of biological realities, its inherent rejection and denigration of men, its willingness to torture logic and reason, and its malignantly exclusive focus on power, rather than love, communication, justice and trust. A sad corollorary of this argument is that men too, have lost the promise of a world more shaped by genuine female wisdom.

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What biological realities? True, men can't have babies or breastfeed. The only thing it's impossible for women to do that men can is... um... well, I can't actually think of any... Unless peeing in a standing position (unmessily -- and I'm not convinced even men really have the hang of that) is really important to you. You'll probably say something about heavy lifting, but who wants to do that, anyway? Most men will try to get out of it if they can.

What the hell is "genuine female wisdom"? Is that the bit where one CREATIVELY makes hubby beg for a bit? Or the serene, beatific madonna-with-child image that doesn't exist except for rare moments (trust me, I have babies, I know this from experience). Or that timeless bit of wisdom, "Nothin' says lovin' like somethin' from the oven"?

Quite frankly, I'd prefer to develop some genuine HUMAN wisdom, one that men and women can share.

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Feminism is definitely dead, and as it has been mainly constituted, deserves to be. How very sad and funny to see the militant feminists in dismay at the rejection of their philosophy and even the name "feminist" by their own daughters.

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Don't be so quick to write it off. Sure, there are flaws. Yes, feminism, especially academic feminism, is not as inclusive as it should be, and there is some distance to go. On the other hand, a lot of men out there, just like yourself, have some distance to go before they even meet us halfway.

I was one of the first "I'm not a feminist, but..." cohort in the '80s. In my teens and early 20s, I wasn't sure we still needed feminism. I've come to the conclusion that we still do, and have self-identified as a Third Wave Feminist -- not that this is a particularly concrete definition, as we Third Wavers are a very diverse bunch, and often disagree vociferously and pretty ferociously amongst ourselves. Nevertheless, here we are. I also see more young women identifying themselves as feminists now than I did 20 years ago. Let's not sign that death certificate just yet.

edited to add: I've never even heard of Le Tigre.

[ 07 December 2004: Message edited by: Zoot ]

A fellow babbler, offline and IN PERSON, mentioned looney's post as one that violated the rules of this forum. A warning perhaps?

[ 07 December 2004: Message edited by: BLAKE 3:16 ]

web page

As for Le Tigre, another bunch I have huge respect for. Despite the major label and commercial. I believe Hanna when she says it's hard to survive as a musician living in New York. More power to her.

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Fans of grrl punk rock, or fans of Canadian feminism, should check out Republic of Safety, a hot new band out of Toronto. Headed by veteran NDPer Maggie MacDonald, with tons of lyrics on political and gender themes.

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I have just observed with shame that my earlier post was less than transparent- I should have mentioned that I am a non-lyricizing member of RoS and a longtime friend of the MM. How disingenuous of me! I hate the thinly veiled self promotion of others so I should be more careful myself.

In any case my unabashed admiration of Maggie stands. She's a great example of feminism in action-- and of how our generation of feminists is not afraid to combine our activism with anti-racist, anti-poverty action. (I wonder if this makes us less visible as feminists, leading to the misleading "demise of feminism" ruminations of some on this board. The grownup riot grrrls I know don't have much patience for carrying the torch of their white liberal feminist forbears uncritically... but I digress.)

Still so thrilled to work with someone who is willing to take their politics into action in many ways, not least of all through stimulating art.