Can I afford a dishwasher? Ahem. We won't talk about that right now.

YAY, NEW DISHWASHER.

Let me give you some background on this so you'll know why I'm so excited (well, besides hating doing the dishes).

When I was married, both my husband and I hated doing the dishes. We went into our marriage with practically nothing except my bed and a few pieces of furniture. We moved to Toronto the day after we got married, and we had dreams about a few things we wanted. My dream was a dishwasher. But he insisted that we needed a car (in Toronto! I still can't figure that out) so we bought a little used car for cheap cheap (he can fix them so it was not as expensive for us to own a car). So I said, "Okay. But the next time we have enough money for a larger purchase, I want a dishwasher."

Well, we moved to a nice new apartment after several months of getting on our feet (read: both unemployed and almost enough money to eat) which was more expensive than the hole in the wall we started out in. And finally, both of us were employed, and while we weren't rich, we weren't wondering where the next meal would come from.

However, both of us HATED housework. I mean HATED it. And the dishes were the biggest source of conflict on that front. So I said, "Let's get a dishwasher - we've been talking about it for a while now."

He insisted that we couldn't AFFORD a dishwasher. But soon, he wanted a video camera. A video camera, according to him, was an absolute necessity since the baby was about to be born in a month. We had to have it. I said, "What about the dishwasher? We'll feel like doing dishes even less then." But noooooooo, we had to have the video camera. So then and there, I made him promise the next thing we buy would be a dishwasher (even a new one would cost less than that damn video camera).

After the baby was born, and I went back to work in 6 months (during which time we had fights about housecleaning all the time), his friend decided to get a new computer, and wanted to sell his old one to us for $700. The one I'm typing on right now, in fact!

I wanted a computer too, so that was okay. I wanted a dishwasher more, but I could live with the computer.

But then, after that, he wanted a CD burner. I said, "What about the dishwasher?" No dishwasher. He wanted a CD burner. Then a scanner (which he bought "for me" for some special occasion or another).

Sigh. This was a constant source of annoyance, not to mention that neither of us liked doing the dishes, and all this time we had been fighting over it. But according to him, "there wasn't enough money" for the dishwasher.

So today, I decided. Now that the husband is gone, I'm getting a dishwasher. I got a used one (quite used, I think, but looked decent enough) from a small repair place in town. It was cheap, cheapest in town by far not including want ads (which don't come with a year long parts and service warantee like this one does).

And I thought to myself, "Oh Michelle, are you sure you want to do this? You really can't afford it." Then I thought, what is this, husband-in-the-head? Dishwasher, here I come!

My ex always wanted a dishwasher. Our kitchen was too small for one, but one could be sqeezed in if we had to.

Her argument was that no one wanted to do the dishes, and it would end squabbling, and end the condition of dish pile up.

It was my position that a machine, while it might save labour, is no substitute for self discipline.
That if we had strife over who was to do dishes, surely we'd just transfer that strife to who had to load and unload the dishwaser.

We tried various things to see if we could get the discipline in order. My ex tried to lead by example, by first leaving the dishes in soak for extended periods, hoping that the dishes would discipline themselves into cleaning, drying and putting themselves away.

This experiment failed misserably, but my ex was undaunted. She must have reasoned that washing, drying and putting themselves away was just too much to expect from inanimate objects all at once, so she helped them out by washing them, and putting them in the dish drainer to dry themselves and put them away.

Encouraged by the fact the dishes seemed to quickly glom onto the idea of drying themselves, she remained puzzled as to why they hadn't attempted to put themselves away.

No doubt figuring that perhaps the intimate mating of dish against dish, spoon against spoon prehaps required privacy, my ex respected the inhibitions of the dishes and took to draping a tea towel over them so they could preform the task of putting themselves away in proper privacy.

When I pick up the girls sometimes from her apartment, she still holding out hope that one day, the dishes will learn to put themselves away.

Meanwhile I identified all the routine household tasks that need to be done, and I let my daughters choose which ones they would do.

My youngest chose the dishes. I instructed her on what exactly doing the dishes entails: Washing, drying, putting them away, and making sure the kitchen counter was clear and wiped clean.

She does this now without me having to remind or supervise her.

But Snarky?, yes.

But, that's born of working seven days a week, doing the old style "masculine" chores around the house, and still not being able to relax on a day off because the living room was a mess and the carpet a slightly different colour that what it is after you vacuum. (can't wait to go to hardwood)

So ya, I developed a certain snarkism.

One time, I got the vaccuum out and very matter of factly announced to my now ex, and my two older girls: "You are about to hear a noise. Do not be alarmed. It is only the vacuum cleaner." After a pause, I continued: "A vacuum cleaner is a mechanical device with a fan and a bag in in. An electric motor turns the fan at a high rate of speed. This in turn pulls air through the bag. Through various attachements, air is channeled on the intake end. Small bits of dirt and dog hair and other things are drawn in and trapped in the bag."

Ya. There was times I was snarky.

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

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Ya. There was times I was snarky.

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I am sarcastic at times, and snarky, but it's actually humour with a point. I do deliver those type of lines with a smile and a self satire kind of demeanor that you can't see on your monitor.

And, I don' think air drying dishes is better than using a *clean* tea towel. In fact, the longer they sit wet, the longer bacteria has a chance to grow on them. The thing about tea towels is you can't let them sit damp and use them again and again and again.

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It was my position that a machine, while it might save labour, is no substitute for self discipline.

That if we had strife over who was to do dishes, surely we'd just transfer that strife to who had to load and unload the dishwaser.

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No it wouldn't. Instead of everyone bringing their dishes over to the sink after dinner, everyone brings them to the dishwasher. Where they are then out of sight and out of mind until the dishwasher is full.

As for a machine not being a substitute for self discipline, I hope you remember that the next time you wash your clothes by hand with a washboard.

This is such a silly thing for people to have power struggles over. (Oh, you do realize it's a power struggle, don't you - imposing, based on your own preferences, your idea of discipline on people by pressuring them into doing something they hate when a viable alternative is at hand).

There are so many domestic things to fight about - why get your back up out of plain stubbornness about something that would have been so easily solved? Sure, she may not have unloaded the dishwasher afterwards - but since it's so important to you, maybe she could have been responsible for loading and starting the dishwasher, and you could have been responsible for unloading it.

Or, since your youngest daughter seems to have the whole dishes thing down, maybe she could have unloaded it as her chore if your wife found it unbearable.

But this whole thing of denying someone something that you can afford, and is a significant labour-saving device out of sheer stubbornness and a wish to impose "discipline" on anyone other than yourself - well, that sounds more like a control issue than a dispute about a dishwasher.

Kidding.....I am just kidding.

No, I don't think I'm a control freak in these matters. My control freakishness tends to concern the vagaries of life, and not the people around me.

On the other hand, I feel contolled when I have to pick up stuff other people should have put away, or I can't do something because someone hasn't put stuff away, or has put something away improperly.

Sure, there's things I want done "just so", like the windows, and once and a while the vacuuming. But when I want things done a special way to please myself, I don't ask anyone else to do it. I do it myself, and I don't complain about it.

But there are routine things, like laundry and dishes, and they have to be done. Not half done, but done. Finished. Completed.

I'm not convinced that a dishwasher would have helped us much. You know what would have happened? The dishwasher would have become the place where we kept the dishes.

And, it's not control to try to impart some responsibility and discipline to your kids, it's parenting.

I don't care how my youngest does the dishes, I just care that they are done. I showed her the way I do them, because I think it's the most efficient way to do them, but after showing her she's free to do it as she sees fit. The fact that they are usually done before I realize it tells me she's probably found that efficiency, or a better one.

But you know what? I'm happy you got a dishwasher for yourself.

I'd love a dishwasher too.... but, the freezer must come first.

I rinse in hot bleach water and wir dry btw.

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I thought about what you said, about the control thing, and I want very much to stop you from saying stuff like that.

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You did make me consider a lot of things in context of control though, never a bad thing to do once and a while.

Michelle, I love your dishwasher. I haven't even met it, and already I love it.

And that thing about drying dishes, especially glasses: I haven't dried a dish with a tea towel for about thirty years, mainly because a chemist told me it was unsanitary. Rinse 'em in water as hot as you can stand, and then let 'em air-dry. And try to avoid washing wooden things at all -- wood heals itself. Good news, eh?

You guys are all making me feel like a slob, though. I married a dishwasher fourteen years ago, but does that mean that the kitchen counter is always clear and clean? Is it clear and clean right now? *rolling-on-the-floor smiley*

In my own defence, I would point out that running the machine every day is not ecologically virtuous, so I never run it until it's full. Tommy will be suspecting that I'm sometimes just too lazy to clear it, that it's become the place where our dishes are sometimes stored, and I might admit that there's some truth in what Tommy says ...

But Tommy, you make me laugh. This thing you've got about the dishes ... It's a good thing that we have other good things between us, Tommy -- like your Columnists column of revered memory -- because Tommy, we would otherwise be doing this dialogue:

Lady Astor: Sir, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your coffee.

The second day I had it, I ran it twice. It would have been the first day, but I forgot to buy dishwasher soap. I had a LOT of dishes to do by then. The day it was delivered I was trying to decide whether to do the dishes before the guy delivered it (and save myself the embarassment of my messy kitchen) or save them for the dishwasher. On the advice of my husband (who, of course, I told about my purchase immediately after typing that message - and I tried to do it without sounding smug, really I did) I saved the dishes for the dishwasher. He said, "What the hell, the guy'll only be there for a few minutes."

Heh.

So I did two loads that day (including pots and pans and stuff), and since then I haven't run it once. So that would be from Saturday to now. It's almost full again, though, so I'll probably do it either tonight or tomorrow. That means I'll probably be running it maybe twice a week. That's not too bad. Especially since it's a great place to hide the DIRTY dishes.

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It was my position that a machine, while it might save labour, is no substitute for self discipline.

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Unfortunately, all the dishwasher does is wash dishes.... It does not prevent spousal arguments (one of the few things we argue about), it does not prevent dishes from piling all over the kitchen, and it does not ensure a clean or tidy countertop at any time. But it does mean I spend somewhat less time in the kitchen than I otherwise would and is consequently worth its weight in gold.

(through gritted teeth)

It's just me being a control freak I guess....expecting kitchen cupboards to be for.... dishes..... I mean.....(sound of grinding teeth) maybe we could keep the parakeet there, instead....

(struggling for composure) That's okay....jobs don't need to be seen through to the end... It's okay...it's okay......calm blue ocean calm blue ocean.....

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It's just me being a control freak I guess....

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The overwhelming opinion here is that air drying dishes is more sanitary, but I'm sure I heard a blurb on the radio not long ago saying it wasn't.

I will differ to the expertise here, however.

Microwaves can be used to sterilize wooden untensils. Just don't burn them. And make sure your cutting board doesn't have feet that are nailed on like I didn't when I nuked it.

All this notwithstanding, I prefer to have the job done to the end, and the dishes put away. I like the look of a clear kitchen counter, and believe it's the state it should be in regularly.

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Again with the straight lines!

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.....Yer.......yer....(heavey breathing)...

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Oh... oh, my!

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If you boys dont behave I'll put you in the dishwasher!

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But we are behaving, earthmother!

There's a classic one with Bugs and Daffy, you see, where Elmer Fudd is hunting, and Daffy convinces him it's "Wabbit Season", but of course, it always backfires on Daffy, Bugs getting the best of him.

'lance's timely and quite witty commentary, lampooning my cartoonish exasperation was greeted by me in the best humour, and I was acknowledging that in a funny way.

........well, funny if you've seen the cartoon....I thought spelling dispicable with the "th" for the "s" tipped it off..... but maybe my spelling is so bad that you took it for another error.....

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

But with you boys bouncing around trying to open season on each other the dishes under the tea towel are getting scared and refusing to put themselves away.

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I will differ to the expertise here, however.

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Heh. Freudian typo?

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It's just me being a control freak I guess....expecting kitchen cupboards to be for.... dishes..... I mean.....(sound of grinding teeth) maybe we could keep the parakeet there, instead....

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HAHAHAHA! Luckily I'm at home this time and not the computer lab at school.

But seriously, Tommy, I wasn't saying I was keeping CLEAN dishes in the dishwasher. I was saying that it was great because over the several days it takes to have enough DIRTY dishes to do a load in the dishwasher, the dirty dishes are IN the dishwasher instead of on the counter, so they're out of sight.

Surely you can't find anything wrong with THAT. I unload the dishwasher as soon as it's finished and they're dry - no one loves a cupboard full of clean dishes more than me! All the better if I didn't have to wash them to get it!

You don't think I should be running the dishwasher every day at 3/4 empty do you, just so that I will be able to make sure that every single dish is clean and in the cupboard once a day?

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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But seriously, Tommy, I wasn't saying I was keeping CLEAN dishes in the dishwasher. I was saying that it was great because over the several days it takes to have enough DIRTY dishes to do a load in the dishwasher, the dirty dishes are IN the dishwasher instead of on the counter, so they're out of sight.

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Oy, you disciplined people!! The reason I have so many dirty dishes on the counter is because the electric cupboard, er, ahem, dishwasher is full of clean ones that I haven't got to yet...

'Sides, unloading the dishwasher can be dangerous... Last time I did that, I found Ms T on the door with the upper half of her little body inside.... Wouldn't want to accidentally sanitize the baby, would we....

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

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'Sides, unloading the dishwasher can be dangerous... Last time I did that, I found Ms T on the door with the upper half of her little body inside....

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Boy, do I know that problem, or do I know that problem! Guinevere does that too. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times, Don't Even Open the Dishwasher!

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Contact any health unit. They will tell you that, short of a dishwasher, air drying dishes is the most sanitary way of drying them.

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I sure miss the dishwasher, though - IMO it was one of the biggest advances ever in reducing the drudgery of maintaining a household.

On the bright side, due to some rather nice nieces, all our dishes match now, as does our cutlery.

Sometimes I'll let the dishes air dry if there's not too many of them, but I still like the kitchen work area clean and clear, particularly before I start cooking, a skill that has improved over that last year.

I am unsure of the electricity usage of a dishwasher (assuming the hot water is a saw off and one didn't use the hot air drying option).

Requiem aeternam dona defunctis dishwasher, Domine.
Et Lux Soap perpetua luceat eis.

KitchenAid eleison!
Calgon eleison!
Kenmore eleison!

Domine, Jesu Christe, Rex gloriae,
libera animas omnium dishwasher defunctorum
de poenis inferni
et de profundo lacu.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis pecatta mundi
dona my dishwasher requiem.

Requiem aeternam dona my dishwasher, Domine;
et lux perpetua luceat eis.
Cum sanctis tuis in aeternum:
quia pius es.

(To be truthful, Michelle, I was rolling about on floor holding tummy for the first while after reading that post, but I'm back and earnestly empathetic now, promise. Hic.)

Oh, gosh, but I know how you feel. I have spent so much of my life coaxing cranky machines into one more year of life.

My BF's parents gave us a dishwasher for Xmas and it's totally revolutionised our homelife. We never fought about dishes, but we sure hated doing them.

And aside from the small amount of energy it takes to run it, I don't think it's an environmental sacrifice. We tested the water usage of our machine by plugging one of the kitchen sinks to catch the outflow, and it uses only one sinkful of water, which is about 1/4 what we used to use hand washing. And instead of rinsing dirty recyclables, we just put them under the spigot while the machine's on and they get rinsed by the dirty dishwater.

And the dishwasher's had a trickledown effect on the cleanliness of our whole home. Before, we used to let the dishes pile up for a week and do them all at once, before doing our regular housework. By the time the dishes were done (it took about 1.5 hours) we were so tired and demoralised that we couldn't face doing a proper job with cleaning the rest of the house.

Now doing dishes is practically no work. About 15 minutes a week, as opposed to 1.5 hours. So now we're actually enthusiastic about cleaning, and we even enjoy cooking more.

Dishwasher, DISHWASHER, D.I.S.H.W.A.S.H.E.R.!!!!!!!!

And now I have an extra hour a week for activism and community service!

Now that our house is so clean, and that we always have clean dishes, we eat take-out way less, and buy a lot less 'convenience' foods and 'reward' snacks etc. I mean, by Fridays B.D.E. (Before Dishwasher Era), when the sinks were both so full I couldn't get in to rinse the coffee pot and filter, I'd say 'f*&% it' and go to Starbucks. Now that the kitchen's spotless all the time, I often go in just to look.

And on the seventh day she rested, and looked over what the dishwasher had done, and found that it was good.

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I shudder at the thought of any of my appliances breaking down. Got 'em all with the house, but they're all a bit dated.

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I told Rebecca once when she visited "Kentucky North", the name I've given my house, "welcome to my place, where nothing works quite right."

My washing machine had a glitch I've been living with and cajoling along for some time, but it finally up and died.

That was some time ago. I have made a huge mistake and called the wrong repair service. They can't make heads nor tails of it, but refuse to give up. It's in their shop right now, awaiting a schematic drawing from Maytag.

For over three weeks now I've been humping my laundry to the laundromat. I don't mind that, actually. I go early in the morning and have all the washers and dryers to myself, so I can do five or six loads and still be out in just over an hour.

And, my pookie kins has let me use her washer dryer a few times... but it looks so lame, showing up at your pookie kins place with laundry.

I'm thinking it's time for you to bite the bullet, Tommy, get your washer back from that place, and either find another place to repair it or buy a new one. Three months is ridiculous. (edited to say - whoops, I read that wrong, you said three weeks, not three months. Still.)

As for that Danby model costing $200 - well, now that my dishwasher is broken I guess this might not be a great recommendation, but I bought my dishwasher used for $200 (or was it $250?). I'll call the repair dude today - you never know, it might just be something small that costs next to nothing to fix, in which case, I still got a good deal in my opinion. Hell, even if it's completely dead, I figure a year and two months of no dishes is even worth it.

Have I mentioned that I really hate doing dishes?

[ 28 March 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]

A used dishwasher is even worse.

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And aside from the small amount of energy it takes to run it, I don't think it's an environmental sacrifice. We tested the water usage of our machine by plugging one of the kitchen sinks to catch the outflow, and it uses only one sinkful of water, which is about 1/4 what we used to use hand washing.

---

I did the same test yesterday after reading this. Similar results. As opposed to using a sink full of hot water every day. (I only run the dishwasher once or twice a week.)

[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: Michelle ]

But of course you have to have enough dishes to only do them once or twice a week (or a larger family so you do them every day). And room for a dishwasher.

I also think of eating out or buying prepared foods like muffins, etc. -- How do the dishes get washed in restaurants? In bakeries? Why, by big, industrial-sized machines, of course. Which probably use more water and energy than I do.

I also have replaced my old washer and dryer, fridge, etc, with energy-efficient and, in the case of the washing machine, low water usage, appliances. Doing without a washer or dryer would be pretty difficult with a 2 and 5 yr old in the house.

So, while I would not consider myself a full-fledged environmentalist, I am doing what I can.

Perhaps you'll gain a little perspective on stuff like this in another decade or so, FSB. We can only hope.

[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

For the environmental cost-benefit analysis that is easing your consciences, lets add a dimension: when you replace perfectly functional appliances, automobiles, etc with new, "energy efficient" machines, you have to factor in the energy, water, and resources used in production. All of your appliances add up to several hundred pounds of metal, each ton or requiring 60 gigajoules of energy for production. For each gigajoule of energy produced by coal, about 25 kg of carbon is released into the atmosphere. Natural gas releases about 15 kg of carbon per gigajoule. Aluminum, on the other hand, requires about 250 gigajoules per ton in production. Do your own math on the carbon released for this material.

Producing a ton of steel also consumes between five and ten cubic metres of water in production- 5000 to 10000 litres.

I know that this thread has been fun, and I don't want to bring everybody down. But if you are gonna pat my Funk Soul Brother condescendingly on the head, and suggest that he gain perspective, I thought that this would provide you with some. Having stuff, no matter how many high-efficiency labels are slapped on it, has consequences. Knowing the consequences should be a part of the decision.

The steel used to produce your new, highly-efficient machines may have come from China or Indonesia. Your having the new things means that somebody else has dirty air. You can't escape the fact.

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For the environmental cost-benefit analysis that is easing your consciences, lets add a dimension: when you replace perfectly functional appliances, automobiles, etc with new, "energy efficient" machines, you have to factor in the energy, water, and resources used in production.

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'scuse me. I started out with ancient appliances, and as they have worn out beyond reasonable hope of repair (not exactly my definition of "perfectly functional appliances"), I have replaced them with the most environment-friendly appliances that I could. They are well underway to paying for themselves with the savings in utility costs as well as repair bills.

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Listen to what the FSW has to say without dismissive disrespect.

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I'd be happy to accord him that courtesy the very minute he accords the rest of us a little respect and leaves off the dismissiveness.

[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

And CO2 is a global emission, so it doesn't matter where it comes from. A country on the other side of the globe releasing CO2 is sending it to exactly the same place we are.

Recyling is a huge step, but is also energy intensive, doc. We shouldn't use it as an excuse to replace our stuff just because the old stuff is getting recycled. I'm really sorry to offend, ZC, I think I got a bit carried away. I could have made my point without jumping all over you. This is a new medium for me. However, you absolutely have to admit, our having means that others go without. The choices we make have an effect on economies other than in our own homes. The world is operating at a completely unsustainable level of consumption. Canada is the largest per capita consumer of energy in the world! Why can't we accept that our practices of demand for products, energy, and services are the ones that are driving this whole thing? (you deserve credit for choosing the energy-efficient appliances, btw)

I understand that your appliances were shot- nothing you can do, they had to be replaced. I understand that the new ones are paying for themselves. That's great. But new stuff, regardless of the condtions under which it is purchased, is still more stuff in the world. The point I am trying to make is that maybe less stuff is better. All the stuff we bring into our lives has consequences, thats all, and the more info we have about our actions, the more carefully we choose our steps.

As for FSB, I have not read his other posts. What ruffled me most, however, is your suggestion that a decade or so provides perspective. Granted, I am different now than a decade ago, and I may even be a bit wiser (By the age of your kids, I think you and I are at about the same stage in our lives), but I in no way presume that my "perspective" is any more valuable than anyone else's. It is simply mine. I work with young folk, and the value of their perspective is in no way diminished by their lack of decades. I sure as heck am not so smug as to roll my eyes when someone, regardless of their past, makes a valid point.

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Recyling is a huge step, but is also energy intensive, doc.

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To use Coke cans as a thermodynamics example, it takes somewhere on the order of the energy equivalent of a third of a gallon of gasoline (or more than a liter of gas) to make one aluminum Coke can.

Recycling shaves that in about half, since you don't need to refine the aluminum. It's already BEEN refined.

It is almost always energetically favorable to reuse and recycle products instead of throwing them away and making new ones from scratch.

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Incidentally, are there not programs in place to reclaim the metals and plastics used in old appliances?

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No need for programs when you have auto scrapyards. They've been taking and "shredding" (as they put it) appliances for decades. The generic term for them is "white goods."

A steel company I do a lot of work with makes all of their steel from scrap, including white goods, and so far as I know always has. In fact their main plant has a scrapyard next door, complete with auto shredder, which in operation is a truly alarming beast. The plastics, glass, and rubber (aka "fluff," or "auto-shredder residue," or "ASR") go somewhere else to make plastic fence posts and the like. For such a fugly place, it's one of the more ecologically friendly enterprises going.

[ 02 April 2003: Message edited by: 'lance ]

"fugly": What is the meaning of this word, please?

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Point taken. Her perspective is valuable. Just no more valuable than anyone else's.

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That wasn't exactly what I meant... One's point of view tends to broaden once one passes 30, and continues to do so ever more rapidly on the approach to 40. FSB is 9 or 10 years younger than I am (approaching 40 now, started having kids a little late), and my suggestion is that he will come to know (as skdadl just pointed out) and be able to consider some things that he has not the experience to understand at this point.

Or, more succinctly, FSB is a little lacking in the big-picture view of things.

I suppose I could be out beating all these towels on a rock somewhere, but then I wouldn't be looking after the person who produced them, would I?, and besides, the weather in Toronto for much of the year is really bad for beating laundry on rocks.

I recognize that many women in other or earlier cultures did without the machinery that I have now. There they were, beating the towels on the rocks. I suspect that most were also dead by my age.

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fugly": What is the meaning of this word, please?

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Zoot, while one's perspective is bound to broaden with experience, it also narrows and becomes more focused on one's own situation.

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Not necessarily. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. When I was a single 20-something with no kids, washing dishes didn't seem like such a big deal. I can see, from my experience, how one would have that particular view at that stage of life. I can also see, if I had chosen not to have kids, that I might not see the need for a dishwasher now, either. I believe I am somewhat more flexible than you're giving me credit for.

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I am not denying your right to a freakin' washing machine, but I am disagreeing with your continued condescension and ageism. A knowing smirk, a roll of the eyes, and a suggestion that someone else will "come to know" the same things as you is ridiculous.

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I just have the ordinary kind of washer, thanks. Oh, and I'm not much of a smirker -- more an eyebrow-raiser.

What continued ageism? What continued condescension? A couple of comments to FSB on this thread, after he's been a complete jerk to me a number of times on this and other threads? Truthfully, it was more about his attitude than his age. Get a grip, get over it.

On the converse side of the argument, you seem to be doling out the judgement pretty freely yourself. So I suppose I am to assume that you have the big picture and I don't. Well, maybe we should compare water bills. Maybe we should see who creates more waste. Or...

... maybe I don't have anything to prove to you. I do the best I can and try to make a difference. If you want a medal or a hero cookie for doing better than I do, I'm happy to give you one.

[ 10 April 2003: Message edited by: Zoot Capri ]

I am going to go to the hardware store, one of my favourite forms of entertainment. I am going to buy a couple of new cookie sheets, which I use as broiler pans because I don't want to spoil the beautiful real broiler pan, and my ordinary cooking definitely destroys cookie sheets at an amazing rate.

I'm sure I'm being frivolous. But life is short, eh? And mine is getting shorter all the time ...

[ 10 April 2003: Message edited by: clersal ]

The new phone cost about forty bucks. I know it's probably worth fifty cents, piece of plastic garbage too, but at the rate we've paid for the old dialler, I could have had a new piece of plastic junk every year for the last two decades and still made change! What was I thinking???

Sorry to go off in my above post(s). I mean it this time. My comments are not in the spirit of this thread, and I should vent elsewhere and more constructively.

By the way, this never fails to make me giggle, Michelle:

quote:

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Can I afford a dishwasher? Ahem. We won't talk about that right now.

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[ 13 April 2003: Message edited by: DrConway ]