Can we please not bait each other with "you're with us or you're with the murderers" type rhetoric, or racist characterizations of Muslims, or namecalling when people piss you off?

I don't see the story on CNN yet, either.

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]

Actually, the Iranian president said that the solution was the end of Israel's "zionist regime". This is reported as 'the destruction of Israel' by those who cannot imagine a non-racist Israeli state.

Oh well those stupid Iranians made the fundamental mistake of voting for a government that believed natural resources were for the people's benefit not multi-national corporations.

quote:

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Oh gosh, it was only 28??? Only 28, and only 19 of them children. And still no evidence of Hezbollah military action in the immediate area. I guess its okay that they only killed 28 people (incl. 19 children) for no reason, because it's certainly worlds better to only kill 28...
Is this really the level you're stooping to?

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http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1212770.ece

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Israel's defence is that it targets Hizbollah and that the militia uses civilians as human shields, thereby putting them at risk. The report could find no evidence to back this up. When investigators went to Qana, Srifa and Tyre, where numerous civilians had been killed, they could see "no evidence" of Hizbollah military activity in the area, no spent ammunition, abandoned weapons or military equipment or dead or wounded fighters.

...

The report examines the air strike on Qana last Saturday, which sparked international outrage and intensified calls for a ceasefire. Human Rights Watch reveals that 28 people died in the attack rather than the 54 originally reported by Lebanese rescue workers. The report details how Israeli warplanes attacked a three-storey building in which 63 members of two extended families were sheltering. At least 22 people are now known to have escaped and 13 remain unaccounted for, presumably buried under the rubble.

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[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]

quote:

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They report that there is no evidence of any military target near the Qana bombsite.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Free duh?:

This is exactly what happened in Jenin 55 people are killed 50 of them armed and Israel is accused of a massacre no investigation

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Funny you should mention Jenin. Here's what the same organization had to say about that:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1965471.stm

quote:

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The campaigning group Human Rights Watch has completed a report into the Israeli army's operation in the Palestinian town of Jenin.

The report says there was no massacre as the Palestinians have claimed, but it does accuse the Israeli army of committing war crimes.

...

Much of the controversy about Jenin has concerned the number of dead with the Palestinians claiming hundreds and the Israelis saying less than 45, and all of them fighters.

Human Rights Watch says at least 52 Palestinians died of whom 22 were civilians. Many of the civilians were killed wilfully and unlawfully the report says.

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[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: astrocreep2000 ]

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Hezbollah is no more illegitimate than the Michigan Militia. [...] Hezbollah did not capture Southern Lebanon from the Lebanese government.

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quote:

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..."We found no evidence of Hezbollah fighters in Qana," Kassem Shaulan, a 28-year-old medic and training manager for the Red Cross in Tyre told IPS at their headquarters. "When we rescue people or recover bodies from villages, we usually see rocket launchers or Hezbollah fighters if they are there, but in Qana I can say that the village was 100 percent clear of either of those." ...

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Now pay attention to what another Red Cross worker said:

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...Another Red Cross worker, 32-year-old Mohammad Zatar, told IPS that "we can tell when Hezbollah has been firing rockets from certain areas, because all of the people run away, on foot if they have to."...

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...Masen Hashen, a 30-year-old construction worker from Qana who lost several family members in the air strike on the shelter, said there were no Hezbollah rockets fired from his village. "Because if they had done that now, or in the past, all of us would have left. Because we know we would be bombed."...

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quote:

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Originally posted by astrocreep2000:

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: astrocreep2000 ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldgoat:
astrocreep, other than demonstrating that you don't know an Arab from your elbow and your geography sucks, you have a point?

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Someone could designate themseleves as being Arab by the following factors.

Islamic tradition: According to Islamic tradition an Arab is a person descending Isma'il (Ishmael) son of The Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham).
Ethnic identity: someone who considers him or herself to be an Arab (regardless of racial or ethnic origin) and is recognized as such by others.
Linguistic: someone whose first language is Arabic (including any of its varieties); this definition covers more than 250 million people. Arabic belongs to the Semitic family of languages.
Genealogical: someone who can trace his or her ancestry back to the original inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula and the Syrian Desert.
Political: someone who is a resident or citizen of a country where Arabic is one of the official languages or the national language, or is a member of the Arab League or is part of the wider Arab world; this definition would cover more than 300 million people, but it is rather simplistic and rigid in that it excludes the entire Diaspora but includes indigenous or migrant minorities.

The official language in Sudan is Arabic,anyone care to explain how it is not an Arab state?

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Based on Islamic tradition Iran would also be considered an Arab state,regardless of it's official language.

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You really have no clue whatsoever, do you? By your "logic", Pakistanis are Arabs. Dumb de dumb dumb dumb.

Does your argument really come down to "those people all look alike"?

ETA: I forgot. Indonesians are all Arabs, according to the insight of astroglide.

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: Jingles ]

Re what's an 'unbiased' source, I guess that largely in the beholders own biases but some things like disinterested observation, commonsense, honesty and weighing tangeable evidence helps narrow down our political theories to some plausible possibilities. My own value based bias is that US (or other) unilateralism wouldn't be any improvement on a US dominated UN.

quote:

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Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
Muslims yes, Arabs no. Iranians in particular have a strong sense of their own identity. (should also add Libya and the Maghrib to the Arabic speaking world)

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quote:

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That's why the militarily insignificant guerrilla operations of Hamas and Hizballah in the southern and northern border areas of Israel have a huge political significance. They threaten to demolish the myth of the invincibility of the Israel Defense Forces, the main prop of imperialism in the region.

Hence the bestiality of the Israeli reaction to Hizballah's act of solidarity with the Palestinians. [The capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 12—SV editors]. Their capture took place against the background of a Zionist killing spree in the Gaza strip and the West Bank that left more than 130 Palestinians dead and that goes on unabated while the headlines are being occupied by the events in the North.

The potential implications go much further than the perspective of dismantling the Zionist segregation regime in Palestine and the downfall of client Arab governments in the Middle East. The oppression of the peoples of the Third World, amounting to more than 90% of humanity, by a handful of imperialist states is only possible because of, on the one hand, the collaborationist role of the local comprador bourgeoisies (which are particularly weak among the Palestinians and the Lebanese Shiites) and, on the other hand, their disunity and military intimidation.

In other words, the dominance of imperialism — above all, of course, of the United States — is in the last instance also based on imposing a regime of terror over the semi-colonial masses of Asia, Africa and Latin America. The limits of imperialism's ability to impose its will by military means has already been revealed by the Iraqi and Afghan resistance to US occupation, and by the defiant stance of several governments in places as widely apart as Iran, North Korea and Venezuela.

Taking the widest historical view, therefore, what is at stake is the survival of the present system of exploitation, of world capitalism.

That's why the G-8 rushed to the defense of Israel at the outset of this new war, and the US has gone beyond declarations of solidarity to speed up the delivery of aviation fuel and precision-guided bombs to Israel. That's also the reason why Israel, with full U.S. backing, rejected several cease-fire offers from Lebanon and Iran. Zionism and imperialism wanted war, and they are getting it with a vengeance.

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quote:

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Originally posted by S1m0n:

Many berbers are also pretty firm about not being arab, as well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by S1m0n:

Sudan, Iran, Pakistan--all the ~stans, in fact--aren't arab. I guess the designer of this graphic doesn't actually know much about the middle east.

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And both Arabs and Turks would be quite surprised to learn that Turks are Arabs.

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To the editor:
The following email was sent to the Prime Minister on July 30, 2006.
============================================

To the Right Honourable Steven Harper,
Prime Minister of Canada,
[email protected].

Re: The Grave Middle East Crisis

Dear Prime Minister,

The United Jewish People's Order is deeply disturbed by the worsening crisis in Israel and Lebanon. It is also greatly troubled by the ongoing violence in Gaza.

Shelling by Hezbollah into northern towns and cities of Israel, especially Haifa, have killed 19 civilians to date, including eight railway workers in that latter city. Many Israelis are huddled in bomb shelters.

On July 30, more than 50 dead civilians, among them 37 children, including disabled ones, were killed by an Israeli air strike on an apartment building in Qana, Lebanon. While official figures estimate that about 500 Lebanese, mostly civilians, have died from the bombardments, doctors set the toll around 850 to date.

The UJPO has for many years proposed a just and peaceful solution to the seemingly never-ending Israeli/Palestinian conflict. We have stood, and stand today, for a two-state solution to that crisis based on an end to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and a cessation of Israeli air and sea control over Gaza. We have denounced the killing of Israeli civilians by suicide bombers, as well as the extrajudicial assassinations of alleged Palestinian extremists. We support the right of both Israelis and Palestinians to security, prosperity and peace based on two viable, contiguous states, with a shared capital in Jerusalem.

That is why we are alarmed at the grave situation in the region today. We believe that Israel's massive use of force in its dealings with the Palestinians and its Arab neighbours is morally repugnant, given the huge numbers of civilian victims, but also because it strengthens extremist and violent elements in Palestine, Lebanon and elsewhere, thus undermining Israel's present and future security. The New York Times, in its July 29 edition, carried the headline, "Tide of Arab opposition turning to support for Hezbollah", and titled one of its editorials, "Israel's air campaign is now doing Israel more harm than good." The Toronto Star on that same day carried a full-page story captioned, "War fans support for Hezbollah".

The manoeuvring by the United States and Britain, unconscionably supported by the Canadian government, to delay an unconditional cease-fire is contributing to the large numbers of civilian dead in Lebanon, and a growing number in Israel.. All parties to the conflict must agree to a total halt in hostilities, and begin negotiations to tackle the root causes of the endless cycle of retaliation and counter-retaliation. A multi-national intercession force along the Israeli-Lebanese border, under United Nations command, must not include states that have played a direct or indirect part in the current violence. An unconditional cease-fire would make possible the plan put forward on July 29 by UN Emergency Relief Co-Ordinator Jan Egeland "to let relief workers evacuate elderly, young and wounded people and deliver emergency aid" to Lebanon.

The road to peace and stability in the Middle East is a long and tortuous one. But a beginning must be made now before worse calamities occur.

For the National Board, United Jewish People's Order,
David Abramowitz and Evelyn Center, Co-Presidents.
585 Cranbrooke Ave., Toronto, M6A 2X9.

copies:
P. Mackay
B. Graham
G. Duceppe
J. Layton

+ media - rabble.ca

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Laura Deeb over at ZNet has written an informative piece about the History of Hizballah. Some points follow:

- Lebanese Shi'i movement whose militia is fighting the Israeli army in south Lebanon
- much more than a militia, the movement is also a political party and a provider of important social services
- Hizballah arose, not as the result of Iranian and Syrian sponsorship, but, to battle the occupation by Israel of south Lebanon from 1982-2000 and, more broadly, to advocate for Lebanon's historically disenfranchised Shi'i Muslim community.

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Deeb at ZNet: Between September 16-18, 1982, under the protection and direction of the Israeli military and then Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, a Lebanese Phalangist militia unit entered the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut, and raped, killed and maimed thousands of civilian refugees. Approximately one quarter of those refugees were Shi'i Lebanese who had fled the violence in the south. The importance of the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon to the formation of Hizballah cannot be underestimated.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Free duh?:

No what I’m trying to show there is a lot of miss information the claims of a few locals is not proof. There is so much contradiction going around in their own stories that it is impossible to prove anything at the moment. Once again you’re accusing with out having a proper trial or investigation that it is prejudice to do so. So it stands now so far it is completely fair and likely do to some of the evidence we have and what we know so far of Hezbollah’s tactics that Hezbollah blow up the building themselves. Just because a few people said that no rockets were fired from Qana doesn’t make it so I guess the Israeli’s are just imagining the Katusha’s falling on their heads.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jingles:

You really have no clue whatsoever, do you? By your "logic", Pakistanis are Arabs. Dumb de dumb dumb dumb.

Does your argument really come down to "those people all look alike"?

ETA: I forgot. Indonesians are all Arabs, according to the insight of astroglide.

[ 03 August 2006: Message edited by: Jingles ]

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quote:

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Gabriele Zamparini:

“I, Tsilli Goldenberg, Israeli citizen

Accuse you - Ehud Olmert, Prime Minister of Israel, Amir Peretz, Minister of Defense, Dan Halutz Head of Staff Chief Commander of the Israeli Army, of committing this bestial barbaric slaughter in Lebanon.

I accuse you of committing Crimes against Humanity towards the Palestinian People. I accuse you of deserting our soldiers, when their lives could be saved by negotiations, and I accuse you of starting an unjustified war in my name.” - Tsilli Goldenberg, Masarik 11, Jerusalem 93106 Israel

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Did you know that "Dana Olmert, the daughter of Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert... [was one of] the demonstrators [who] chanted slogans such as 'Tzahala residents, there's a murderer in your neighborhood,' and raised signs calling on the government to 'put a stop to the murder of civilians' and stating, 'Halutz is a killer, the intifada shall prevail.' Activists also shouted, 'neighbors, ask Halutz why he's killing children and how many'"?

Why not?

Did you know that “45% of those killed in Lebanon are children and of the 500,000 people who have fled to safety, some 200,000 are children”?

Why not?

Did you know that Israel bombed “the nation's biggest private network, the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation”?

Why not?

Did you know that a “big milk factory in the Bekaa region called ‘Liban Lait’ was completely burned and destroyed by direct attacks from the Israeli Air Force.”? And that a “food storehouse called ‘TransMed’ in Choueifate, in Beirut’s southern suburbs, was totally destroyed”?

Why not?

Did you know that “Lebanon's president accused Israel on Monday of using phosphorous bombs in its 13-day offensive and urged the United Nations to demand an immediate ceasefire”?

Why not?

Did you know that “the bodies of 13 Lebanese fighters were taken from Maroun al-Ras and buried in Israel to use in future negotiations over the release of Israeli prisoners”?

Why not?

Did you know that “Israeli military has said it will destroy 10 buildings in predominantly Shia south Beirut for every rocket fired at the Israeli port of Haifa, army radio said Monday”?

Why not?

Did you know that “The delivery of at least 100 GBU 28 bunker busters bombs containing depleted uranium warheads by the United States to Israel for use against targets in Lebanon will result in additional radioactive and chemical toxic contamination with consequent adverse health and environmental effects throughout the middle east.”?

Why not?

Did you know that what's going on is “subject to review by Israel's chief military censor, who has - in her own words – ‘extraordinary power’. She can silence a broadcaster, block information and put journalists in jail”?

Why not?

Did you know that “[a]ccording to the Lebanese police force, the two [Israeli] soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory”?

Why not?

Did you know how the “cross-border” myth originated?

Why not?

From the beginning of this new chapter of the old madness, many people have been following on the internet this shame. We are a peaceful army of world citizens, working for free and moved by solidarity, compassion and an inner drive for justice. Not anger!

But even among the elites of the anti-war movement and the so-called “left”, too many have never been listening to us. Let alone important journalists working for the “pro-Israeli” mainstream media who still believe that the “internet is a new thing, and it's also unreliable.”

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[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Neglected in the map is the number of Jews to Arabs in the mideast. But perhaps the poster intended to juxtapose the number of Moslems to Jews. But that would look even worse.

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1. would be interesting to juxtapose the military capacity of the IDF with that of all of Israel's neighbours.

2. another interesting thing about astro's graphic of "arab lands" (which as other babblers have noted randomly includes central asia, iran, afghanistan, part of south asia, turkey, but leaves out the maghreb states) - does the fact that there are approx. 20 arab countries in the world somehow absolve israel wrt it's treatment of palestinians?

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: zizou ]

WARNING: Graphic images.

Israel's new weapons in Gaza and Lebanon.

quote:

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2. another interesting thing about astro's graphic of "arab lands" (which as other babblers have noted randomly includes central asia, iran, afghanistan, part of south asia, turkey, but leaves out the maghreb states) - does the fact that there are approx. 20 arab countries in the world somehow absolve israel wrt it's treatment of palestinians?

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It does not.

But does Israel treatment of Palestinians absolve Sudan of how it treats its natives? Does it some how absolve these Arab states from taking care of there own population? Does it absolve the Palestinian government from taking care of its population? Does it justify the suicide bombings and other violent tactics used against Israel? Does it justify the hatred taught any many of mosques around the world? Isreal treatment of Palestinians is used an excuse for so many things and as away to ignore others. This is completely and utterly ridiculous

The picture that N.Beltov posted in the previous Israel Lebanon thread is far more racist than that of venus-Man. Why because venus-man’s picture is a factual photo, and I didn’t once here him say that all Arabs were like this, I don’t believe it, I don’t believe venus-man believes it but he can tell you himself what he believe. The photo simply shows some of Hezbollah’s tactics that is all it is not a generalization about Arabs. As far as astrocreep2000 picture is concerned there are 22 states in the Arab league, there are many more countries that we can classify as Islamic but so what there even more Christian than that. The point not to make a generalization about Arabs probably most individual Arabs and Muslims want to get on peacefully in their lives, yet still much of the Arab and the Islamic world see Israel as a cancer and huge problem, the map tried to put the problem into proportion, when is the last time Israel attacked Iran or Malaysia, how exactly does Israel’s existence bother them?

Now as far as N.Beltov picture is concerned by using the Israeli flag on the nazi soldiers uniform it makes a prejudicial generalization about all Israeli’s including Bedouins and Druze, It doesn’t take into account that there are many people that are opposed to occupation of the west bank and Gaza prior to 2005, for example myself, it doesn’t take in to account that there are soldier that refuse to serve in the territories or participate in this current conflict, that pictures sole intent is to ridicule and insult, it is an intelligent commentary as it is trying to be.

Here are some other examples of critiques of Hezbollah tactics including evidence of their use of Human shields. This is not a generalization about Arabs or Muslims.

Hezbollah tactics

And I'm really not interested in dragging old threads into this one, so let's drop it, please. Sometimes the moderator is going to make decisions you disagree with, and that's too bad. Also, I don't have time to get into huge long private message debates with you. My moderating time is limited and better spent on the boards.

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Free duh?:
[QB]

No what I’m trying to show there is a lot of miss information...

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Yeah, I've heard of her:

quote:

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So it stands now so far it is completely fair and likely do to some of the evidence we have and what we know so far of Hezbollah’s tactics that Hezbollah blow up the building themselves.

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Originally posted by Chairm:

And there it hung, like a gym sock on a shower rod.

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Yup, sometimes the truth stinks...

Legally, they are of the same standing, like it or not. Do you have some evidence to the contrary?

As for the utterly ridiculous claim that Hezbollah "occupies" Southern Lebanon; do you have some evidence that this "occupation" has been recognised either by Lebanese domestic law, international law, or anyone of any import at all? Hezbollah is not a foreign power on Lebanese soil.

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

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As for the utterly ridiculous claim that Hezbollah "occupies" Southern Lebanon;

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Some articles of recent happenings:
CNN

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BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israeli aircraft blasted main roadways north of Beirut for the first time in the three-week conflict on Friday, knocking out four key bridges.

The attacks severed the last major overland route for relief supplies into Lebanon, international aid agencies told The Associated Press on Friday.

"This is Lebanon's umbilical cord," Christiane Berthiaume of the World Food Program told AP. "This [road] has been the only way for us to bring in aid. We really need to find other ways to bring relief in." (Watch how Israeli bombs shredded roads and bridges -- 1:04)

In addition, as Lebanese fuel supplies dwindled, a Lebanese government official said Israel was preventing two fuel tankers anchored off the coast from docking and unloading their cargo.

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Israel attacks the only working supply artery into Beirut thats been providng large amounts of aid. Good move ^^

BBC

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The raid hit farm workers as they loaded produce at a depot, they said.

Five people also died when Israeli planes bombed bridges in mainly Christian areas north of Beirut.

....

A UN refugee agency spokeswoman told the BBC the destruction of the bridges was a major setback for the aid operation.

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And BBC again

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Although Israel has fought Hezbollah in the past, it still seems surprised by the group's continuing ability to fire large numbers of rockets at northern Israel.

It also seems taken aback at how much support Hezbollah retains within its own community, and increasingly across Lebanon as a whole.

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Amin Hatate, a former Lebanese army general, believes Hezbollah can go on fighting for months.

snip

"What we are seeing so far are what they call 'village reserves' - that's a very interesting thing. Hezbollah have not committed their troops yet," he says.

"What is in store for the Israelis if they go deeper, and then hold on to territory for a while, is that they are going to see the real combat in south Lebanon - a very classic insurgency and it will be a very costly one because then I think Hezbollah will commit its professional troops."

snip

Hezbollah is not only a military group, and not only a political party; it also has social services that it provides for its supporters, Lebanon's Shia Muslims.

Hezbollah has a full infrastructure that gives these people every possible means to keep standing

Hussein, member of Hezbollah
At one Beirut school, 1,500 people are living in a refugee centre run by Hezbollah.

"Hezbollah has a full infrastructure that gives these people every possible means to keep standing."

Another woman told me that even though they were refugees, Hezbollah was giving them everything they needed. The government had limited means, so Hezbollah was helping them, she said.

This is how Hezbollah guarantees unwavering loyalty and popular support - by providing for the Shia community.

snip

And with its substantial arsenal of weapons, many Lebanese see the group as a state within a state.

snip
Anxiety and criticism are not voiced by many in Lebanon at the moment. There is a sense that now is the time for unity in the face of Israel.

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Are we still insisting that Hizbollah is a terror group? Or are we going to realize that this is a people and an organized well supplied army? If Israel pushes to the Litani river, the Hizbollah military, and quite likely the Lebanese military, are going to mobilize their full military capabilities and we're going to watch Israelis supply lines cut throughout Lebanon and the possible defeat of the Israeli army.

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After three weeks of an intensive Israeli air campaign in Lebanon, backed in recent days by about 10,000 Israeli troops on the ground, Hezbollah is demonstrating a remarkable resilience.

On Wednesday it sent a record number of missiles (231) into Israel, proving that despite the Israeli military's claims of success this Lebanese militia group remains a threat to northern Israel.

As long as that threat remains, Israel's military campaign in Lebanon - codenamed Miftza Shinui Kivun or Operation Change of Direction - will be perceived as a failure.

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Editted to add a silly comment:
I get kick out of the American media that consistantly reports that 'Israeli bombs' are blowing up Lebanon targets... When it's well known to every Lebanese person I've spoke with (or are interviewed) that these 'Israeli bombs' have giant "MADE IN AMERICA" stamps on em.

Do you think the media should more accurately reflect these things? Would a headline like:
"American made bombs dropped by American made fighters flown by Israeli pilots struck targets all across Lebanon today" have a different impact?

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

Mid way down:

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As for Hezbollah, U.S. political scientist Robert Pape found that a large majority of its suicide bombers were not Islamic fundamentalists but Lebanese nationalists who enlisted under Hezbollah to fight the Israeli occupation. Hezbollah is constrained by this constituency, which is now even larger.

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That is unusual, Veronica. Notice how they never mention the identity of "Israeli aircraft"? The US media conveniently ignores that because the fact that the entire Israeli air force is American made would reveal the real US role in this and also lead to dangerous questions from the public. It is better to simply delete that from the US record, while given constant analyasis of Hezbollah's inventory and the origins of its weapons, and keep the public ignorant. After all, they can't question what they don't know.

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: War_Is_Peace ]

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But Dr John Pike, head of the Washington-based military think tank Global Security, said: 'Has the U.S. given Israel a green light to attack Hezbollah and push its troops into southern Lebanon? Yes, of course it has.'

Dr Pike said he believed there was an agreement between Israel and the U.S. that Iranian nuclear plants would eventually - probably next year - have to be bombed to stop the development of a nuclear weapon. Once that bombing takes place, Iran will order Hezbollah to attack Israel. Thus, Dr Pike claimed, the U.S. and Israel agreed in secret that at some point before the attack on the Iranian nuclear sites, Hezbollah had to be disarmed and that as soon as a pretext became available, Israel should use force.

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The neocons' next war
By secretly providing NSA intelligence to Israel and undermining the hapless Condi Rice, hardliners in the Bush administration are trying to widen the Middle East conflict to Iran and Syria, not stop it.

By Sidney Blumenthal

Aug. 03, 2006 | The National Security Agency is providing signal intelligence to Israel to monitor whether Syria and Iran are supplying new armaments to Hezbollah as it fires hundreds of missiles into northern Israel, according to a national security official with direct knowledge of the operation. President Bush has approved the secret program.

Inside the administration, neoconservatives on Vice President Dick Cheney's national security staff and Elliott Abrams, the neoconservative senior director for the Near East on the National Security Council, are prime movers behind sharing NSA intelligence with Israel, and they have discussed Syrian and Iranian supply activities as a potential pretext for Israeli bombing of both countries, the source privy to conversations about the program says. (Intelligence, including that gathered by the NSA, has been provided to Israel in the past for various purposes.) The neoconservatives are described as enthusiastic about the possibility of using NSA intelligence as a lever to widen the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah and Israel and Hamas into a four-front war.

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And my favorite excerpt:

quote:

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Richard Haass, the Middle East advisor on the elder Bush's National Security Council and President Bush's first-term State Department policy planning director, and now president of the Council on Foreign Relations, openly scoffed at Bush's Middle East policy in an interview on July 30 in the Washington Post: "The arrows are all pointing in the wrong direction. The biggest danger in the short run is it just increases frustration and alienation from the United States in the Arab world. Not just the Arab world, but in Europe and around the world. People will get a daily drumbeat of suffering in Lebanon and this will just drive up anti-Americanism to new heights." When asked about the president's optimism, he replied, "An opportunity? Lord, spare me. I don't laugh a lot. That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. If this is an opportunity, what's Iraq? A once-in-a-lifetime chance?"

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I think the Israeli are going to find they're underestimating what they are getting themselves into... Support for Hizbollah grows... This isn't a terrorist organization (were there shows of support like this pro-Al Qaeda post 9/11? Heh, were their as big of rallies of support when Iraq was invaded? Not sure there) For the record, Lebanese generals (the ones being asked to disarm Hizbollah) refer to the Hizbollah 'terrorists' as troops. That bit from BBC above talking about Hizbollah so far relying on 'village reserves'( which I think explains the civilian casualty count and the 'human shield' arguements... Hey, when you're fighting town reserves made up of civilians, you're going till kill (shocker here) civilians! ) means that the real Hizbollah fighters, with maybe the exception of some ground battles, haven't really began doing what they're capable of. I think Bint Jbiel makes a good example, the 'village reserves' held the town and fought with Israelis for the first day and IDF along with the media were reporting it claimed. Next day, the medias are reporting intense fighting after some ambushes and Israeli tanks hit... Took almost 72 hours to take it, and the Isralies needed to turn alot of the town into rubble. Those are the 'troops'). Nasrallah is smart... He'll drag his enemies as deep as he can get them into his familuar territory. Thats when the ambushes, raids, attacking of supply lines and convoys... Y'know, guerilla warfare.

I get a lil laugh out of the CNN analysts saying that if Hizbollah had the weapons to hit Tel Aviv, they would have already. Nasrallah wouldn't just lie all his cards on the table and say 'here's the best we can do! Kay your turn!'. I'd think the strategy would be 2 bits... The image of being able to followup on his threats (when he says he'll attack something when you do this... you can garentee he will). And second, he doesn't wasnt to show the extent of what he does have right away. He'll want to remain underestimated for as long as possible. This recent threat I think should be taken to heart.

There are signs that Israel is catching onto this though... Today they bombed the northern roads to Lebanon really limiting the flow into Beriut. Those were the last lines for food aid, but y'know military supplies were coming in as well (anyone wanna interject here and tell me this is Lebanons fault for not providing military security checks at the last road ). It does show a little desperation in the tactics to admit that they'll need the entire city cut off to the outside.

Getting to the point where it's hard to determine is it's Israeli disabling a terrorist group, or 2 nations at war.

BBC does a lil report on what Arabic news outlets are reporting on this and what they are critisizing.

quote:

---

Washington is condemned for blocking attempts by the international community to achieve a ceasefire, while the Israeli attacks are seen as having little impact on Hezbollah's ability to fight back.

One commentator sees a call for Muslims to retaliate over Lebanon by al-Qaeda's second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri as evidence that the group intends to open a front against Israel, while another believes the statement plays into US hands.

---

The ones that stand out for me

quote:

---

The war of destruction in Lebanon is similar to the war of destruction in Iraq. No matter what the objective is... the final aim that is shared by both Israel and the US is to work together to redraw the political/geographical map in the region in a way that suits Israel.

snip

The voices that denounced the statements of Al-Qaeda's second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahiri... are right... Such statements by Zawahiri will support US-Israeli claims that the current war on the Lebanese and Palestinians are part of the international war on terrorism represented by Zawahiri and his leader, Osama Bin Laden.

---

Lends itself to the theory that the US is supporting an Israeli military invasion of Lebanon and the kidnappings made for a good excuse.

Though once again, I gotta question Israeli tactics. a BBC article has got:

quote:

---

The raid on the Lebanese village of Qaa, on the northern tip of the Bekaa Valley, hit a vegetable warehouse where farm workers were loading produce, local civil defence officials said.

The dead and injured, many of them Syrian Kurds, were taken to hospitals in Syria.

One worker, Mohammad Rashed, told Syrian television: "I was picking peaches when three bombs hit. Others were having lunch and they were torn to pieces."

---

Meanwhile, the wartime general rallies his population

quote:

---

The conflict in the Middle East, as well as others involving Muslim extremists, revolve around "modernization within Islam" and whether the Western system of values can "beat theirs," British Prime Minister Tony Blair said in a speech Tuesday.

---

Our values and Western system is better and can beat them, go team!

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

Eddited in:

Do you think history will remember 2000 as 'the years of the Modern Crusades'?

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noise:
Emailed to me, so I am unsure of source, likely cnn or bbc though:

Editted to add a silly comment:
I get kick out of the American media that consistantly reports that 'Israeli bombs' are blowing up Lebanon targets... When it's well known to every Lebanese person I've spoke with (or are interviewed) that these 'Israeli bombs' have giant "MADE IN AMERICA" stamps on em.

Do you think the media should more accurately reflect these things? Would a headline like:
"American made bombs dropped by American made fighters flown by Israeli pilots struck targets all across Lebanon today" have a different impact?

[ 04 August 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by astrocreep2000:

al jazeera video link?

---

Interesting. But who is that angry woman?

quote:

---

The obscene score-card for death in this latest war now [August 3] stands as follows: 508 Lebanese civilians, 46 Hizbollah guerrillas, 26 Lebanese soldiers, 36 Israeli soldiers and 19 Israeli civilians.

In other words, Hizbollah is killing more Israeli soldiers than civilians and the Israelis are killing far more Lebanese civilians than they are guerrillas. The Lebanese Red Cross has found 40 more civilian dead in the south of the country in the past two days, many of them with wounds suggesting they might have survived had medical help been available. Robert Fisk

---

Water Resources Water Use water recharge
Mountain Aquifer 673 679
Coastal Aquifer 380 305
Jordan River 1340 1311
Total 2393 2295
In MCM

The figures indicate a deficit. Water usage is, on average, above recharge rates from all controlled sources including the Golan Heights.
The salinity of the Coastal Aquifer is increasing.
Desalination at $1US per CM is not economical for most crops- all the world’s desalination plants (13,600) produce just 26 MCM and most are located in Gulf Oil States, as they require a lot of energy to run.
A large portion of the Mountain Aquifer sits under the West Bank so any “un-controlled” development or in-migration to an independent Palestinian state would be to the detriment of Israel.
The Litani River in Lebanon is a domestic river- its whole length is within Lebanon. Its closest meander to Israel is 3 km. By annexing a small portion of Lebanon near its closest point to Israel could make the Litani, arguably, an international river. The estimated average annual flow of the Litani is 920 MCM. The Litani has high quality water. In particular, its salinity level is 20 parts per million (compared with 250-350 parts per million for the Sea of Galilee, a reservoir for the Jordan River).
If this area of the world has a growing water problem, this would seem to be a rather tempting idea- erases two national threats at the same time.
The problem is that Israel has already been in a position to accomplish an annexation up to the Litani River the last time they were in Lebanon, but didn’t, so why would they do it now?

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Stanley10 ]

quote:

---

A. "the international community considers the Golan to be sovereign Syrian territory militarily occupied by Israel"

B. "Israel should give it back to Syria. [...] it does not belong to Israel.

C. To reiterate: The Golan Heights is Syrian territory occupied by Israel.

---

The border between Lebanon and Israel is internationally recognized. Israel withdrew behind that border and no longer occupied Lebanon territory.

Syria and Israel are sovereign neighbors and, as such, can negotiate peaceful settlement of their mutual border.

Subsequently (or concurrently) Lebanon can negotiate with Syria for the transfer of whatever disputed territory Lebanon might claim was occupied by Syria prior to the 1967 war.

Each of these three neighbors has the right to exist and to defend itself.

* * *

There may be more agreement:

1. The legitimate authority of the national government of Lebanon extends throughout the country and, internationally, beyond its boundaries in the exercise of Lebanese sovereignty.

2. The Hezbollah is an armed political faction located within the sovereign state of Lebanon.

* * *

Perhaps disagreement can be clarified:

Did the Lebanon government lawfully delegate to the Hezbollah's military chain of command the initiation and/or the settlement of border disputes with any of Lebanon's neighboring states?

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Chairm ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chairm:

Perhaps disagreement can be clarified:

Did the Lebanon government lawfully delegate to the Hezbollah's military chain of command the initiation and/or the settlement of border disputes with any of Lebanon's neighboring states?

---

The former PM of lebanon is on record as saying that in 1990 during the negotiation of the Taif agreement, which ended the lebanese civil war, the country was still under israeli occupation, and there was no way they were going to disarm Hezbollah under that circumstance.

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]

quote:

---

What I don't get is the insistance by Israel, the LOSERS of their war against hezbollah, that Hezbollah--the winner--somehow has an obligation to surrender and disarm. Where did they get that?

---

Numerous UN resolutions obligate Hezbollah to disarm and the Lebanese Army to exercise effective military control over all the territory of Lebanon.

quote:

---

Originally posted by John K:

Numerous UN resolutions obligate Hezbollah to disarm and the Lebanese Army to exercise effective military control over all the territory of Lebanon.

---

Which opens up a big kettle of fish. The UN's authority is constantly questioned when its diktats contravene Israeli policy. Usually, the line is something about "defending ourselves". Does Hezbollah not have a right to "defend themselves" and the people they represent and care for? Israel routinely violates the same UN resolutions regarding Lebanon. Who's zooming who?

It also opens up the question of the applicability/authority of international law and political institutions in regard to non-state actors such as Hezbollah. The UN system is designed chiefly as a condominium of nation-states. The notion of "sovereignty" is central to this system which functions on a tension of reciprocal rights and responsibilities given to state governments to protect their populations. How do you fit Hezbollah in?

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by siren:
Interesting. But who is that angry woman?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John K:
Under international law and the UN Charter, Hezbollah has every right to achieve its ends in the political realm but not to act as a state within a state.

---

Are you under the impression that Hezbollah was a member of the UN, and bound in any way by it's charter?

~~

If Israel has any objection to make about the weakness of the Lebanese government, they should take it up with Ariel Sharon, because it was Sharon who BROKE Lebanon, in his desire to install the fascist Bachir Gemayel as dictator of Lebanon.

If you find any irony in the state of Israel conspiring with an avowed fascist to dominate a neighbouring state, then you don't understand how hollow Isreal's claim to any moral high ground has become.

quote:

---

Originally posted by John K:

Numerous UN resolutions obligate Hezbollah to disarm and the Lebanese Army to exercise effective military control over all the territory of Lebanon.

---

Well, actually just ONE resolution.

In contrast, here's a list of some thirty UN resolutions still unobeyed by Israel:

Let's start with UNSC resolutions 242 and 338

Considering it dates from forty years ago, 242 has to be the longest ignored resolution in UN history.

Here's a few more:

quote:

---

United Nations Security Council Resolutions
Currently Being Violated

The cases are listed in order of resolution
number, followed by the year in which the res-
olution was passed, the country or countries
in violation, and a brief description of the
resolution.
Resolution 252 (1968) Israel
Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures
that change the legal status of Jerusalem, includ-
ing the expropriation of land and properties
thereon.
262 (1968) Israel
Calls upon Israel to pay compensation to
Lebanon for destruction of airliners at Beirut
International Airport.
267 (1969) Israel
Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind measures
seeking to change the legal status of occupied
East Jerusalem.
271 (1969) Israel
Reiterates calls to rescind measures seeking to
change the legal status of occupied East
Jerusalem and calls on Israel to scrupulously
abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention regard-
ing the responsibilities of occupying powers.
298 (1971) Israel
Reiterates demand that Israel rescind measures
seeking to change the legal status of occupied
East Jerusalem

...

446 (1979) Israel
Calls upon Israel to scrupulously
abide by the Fourth Geneva
Convention regarding the responsibil-
ities of occupying powers, to rescind
previous measures that violate these
relevant provisions, and “in particu-
lar, not to transport parts of its civil-
ian population into the occupied
Arab territories.”
452 (1979) Israel
Calls on the government of Israel to
cease, on an urgent basis, the estab-
lishment, construction, and planning
of settlements in the Arab territories,
occupied since 1967, including
Jerusalem.
465 (1980) Israel
Reiterates previous resolutions on
Israel’s settlements policy.
471 (1980) Israel
Demands prosecution of those
involved in assassination attempts of
West Bank leaders and compensation
for damages; reiterates demands to
abide by Fourth Geneva Convention.
484 (1980) Israel
Reiterates request that Israel abide by
the Fourth Geneva Convention.
487 (1981) Israel
Calls upon Israel to place its nuclear
facilities under the safeguard of the
UN’s International Atomic Energy
Agency.
497 (1981) Israel
Demands that Israel rescind its deci-
sion to impose its domestic laws in
the occupied Syrian Golan region

---

Oh wait, there's more!

quote:

---

573 (1985) Israel
Calls on Israel to pay compensation
for human and material losses from
its attack against Tunisia and to
refrain from all such attacks or threats
of attacks against other nations.
592 (1986) Israel
Insists Israel abide by the Fourth
Geneva Conventions in East
Jerusalem and other occupied territo-
ries.
605 (1987) Israel
“Calls once more upon Israel, the
occupying Power, to abide immedi-
ately and scrupulously by the Geneva
Convention relative to the Protection
of Civilian Persons in Times of War,
and to desist forthwith from its poli-
cies and practices that are in viola-
tions of the provisions of the
Convention.”
607 (1986) Israel
Reiterates calls on Israel to abide by
the Fourth Geneva Convention and
to cease its practice of deportations
from occupied Arab territories.
608 (1988) Israel
Reiterates call for Israel to cease its
deportations.
636 (1989) Israel
Reiterates call for Israel to cease its
deportations.
641 (1989) Israel
Reiterates previous resolutions calling
on Israel to desist in its deportations.

...

672 (1990) Israel
Reiterates calls for Israel to abide by
provisions of the Fourth Geneva
Convention in the occupied Arab ter-
ritories.
673 (1990) Israel
Insists that Israel come into compli-
ance with resolution 672.
681 (1990) Israel
Reiterates call on Israel to abide by
Fourth Geneva Convention in the
occupied Arab territories

...

726 (1992) Israel
Reiterates calls on Israel to abide by
the Fourth Geneva Convention and
to cease its practice of deportations
from occupied Arab territories.
799 (1992) Israel
“Reaffirms applicability of Fourth
Geneva Convention…to all
Palestinian territories occupied by
Israel since 1967, including
Jerusalem, and affirms that deporta-
tion of civilians constitutes a contra-
vention of its obligations under the
Convention."
...
904 (1994) Israel
Calls upon Israel, as the occupying
power, "to take and implement mea-
sures, inter alia, confiscation of arms,
with the aim of preventing illegal acts
of violence by settlers."

...

1073 (1996) Israel
"Calls on the safety and security of
Palestinian civilians to be ensured."

...

1322 (2000) Israel
Calls upon Israel to scrupulously
abide by the Fourth Geneva
Convention regarding the responsibil-
ities of occupying power.

---

Getting tired yet?

quote:

---

1402 (2002) Israel
Calls for Israel to withdraw from
Palestinian cities.
1403 (2002) Israel
Demands that Israel go through with
“the implementation of its resolution
1402, without delay."
1405 (2002) Israel
Calls for UN inspectors to investigate
civilian deaths during an Israeli
assault on the Jenin refugee camp.

---

One more!

quote:

---

1435 (2002) Israel
Calls on Israel to withdraw to posi-
tions of September 2000 and end its
military activities in and around
Ramallah, including the destruction
of security and civilian infrastructure.

Explanatory Notes:
This list deals exclusively with resolu-
tions of the United Nations Security
Council, a fifteen-member body con-
sisting of five permanent members
(the United States, Russia, China,
France, and the United Kingdom)
and ten non-permanent members
elected for rotating two-year terms
representing various regions of the
world. The Security Council’s prima-
ry responsibility, under the UN
Charter, is for the maintenance of
international peace and security. For a
resolution to pass, it must be
approved by a majority of the total
membership with no dissenting vote
from any of the five permanent mem-
bers. Since the early 1970s, the
United States has used its veto power
nearly fifty times, more than all other
permanent members during that
same period combined. In the vast
majority of these cases, the U.S. was
the only dissenting vote. The preced-
ing list, therefore, includes only reso-
lutions where the United States voted
in the affirmative or abstained.
This list does not include resolutions
that merely condemn a particular
action, only those that specifically
proscribe a particular ongoing activi-
ty or future activity and/or call upon
a particular government to imple-
ment a particular action.

---

Notice how many call on Israel to respect the geneva conventions?

And these are just the ones the US allowed to pass--Imagine how many more the US vetoed.

quote:

---

Golan Heights is illegally occupied by Israel

---

Illegal or not, Israel was not occupying Lebanon.

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Chairm ]

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Chairm ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chairm:

Illegal or not, Israel was not occupying Lebanon. That's the point of agreement.

---

Not by the lebanese, it's not.

But that's a weird defense Israel is using--"we didn't rob X, we robbed Y! X has no right to be upset--we gave back the stuff we stole from X!"

quote:

---

it CAN be said that Hezbollah remained armed with the consent of the lebanese government

---

You are talking of leaving a political faction armed. That is not what was asked.

However, as you have suggested it, do you (or anyone else here) assert it that the central government freely consented to having the border region controlled by the Hezbollah chain-of-command?

I think, out of weakness in their ability to exercise authority (not out of desire to exercise that authority), they submitted rather than consented.

* * *

To restate what was asked and which I think would help to better define an area of disagreement:

quote:

---

Did the Lebanon government lawfully delegate to the Hezbollah's military chain of command the initiation and/or the settlement of border disputes with any of Lebanon's neighboring states?

---

quote:

---

weird defense Israel is using--"we didn't rob X, we robbed Y!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chairm:

Not robbed. Not illegal. We would disagree about that, but the point in agreement would remain.

---

From the BBC Aug.3:

"Mr Olmert also stated Israel's intention of driving the civilian population out of southern Lebanon as a way of breaking support ofr Hezbollah.)"

"The plan now seems to be that Israel will try to set up its so-called "buffer zone" (the Lebanese will call it an occupied zone) which it will hold until an international force arrives to take over. That could take some weeks.

The likely depth of this zone is not certain. Some Israelis talk of about 8km (five miles); others say it should go as far as the Litani River, up to 30km north of the border (though it is much closer in the east because of a curve north in the border)."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5234682.stm

I read today that the French will be putting many soldiers into the international force and Tony Blair has promised to resolve all the mid-east problems after he finishes his holiday. Which reminds me that I’ll have to rent Beau Geste- an Englishman joins the French Foreign Legion and goes to the desert or a gesture noble in form but meaningless in substance.
I hope not.

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: Stanley10 ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stanley10:
Has he lost already? I believe the proposed UN resolution is rather open ended on when all the “defensive” military activities cease. I agree with you though, he is in a pickle if it doesn’t look like a clear win for Israel.

---

Yes, he lost by not winning. It was a sucker bet--all Hezbollah had to do to 'win' was not lose, and the only thing Israel could do to avoid losing was to win overwhelmingly.

The only smart move from Israel's POV was to not engage with Hezbollah in the first place, or rather to keep it at the level of a skirmish. I don't know if Olmert was weak or stupid, but he took the sucker bet, doubled up disastrously in the early going, and then chickened out on the ground.

Hezbollah's capacity to fight is largely untouched, and the IDF looks weak and frightened, as well as politically isolated. It's a clear loss all round for Olmert.

~~

The US is going to pull some kind of face-saving ceasefire out of the hat for Olmert's sake, but Hezbollah is going to attain their goals--a prisoner exchange, and movement on the shabaa farms, while Israel isn't going attain theirs--the disarming of Hezbollah, or the significant dimishment of it's capacity to fight.

[ 05 August 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]

quote:

---

If you want to assert that Israel's occupation and attempted annexation of the Golan, of the West bank and Gaza is legal, then we don't have any grounds for agreement at all, and you have a serious "acknowlegement of reality" problem.

---

Regardless of your opinion about that, there is an agreement of fact that has been expressed in the previous comments of others here: The Golan is Syrian territory occupied by Israel.

What is your reading of reality on the question asked:

quote:

---

Hezbollah's capacity to fight is largely untouched, and the IDF looks weak and frightened, as well as politically isolated. It's a clear loss all round for Olmert.

---

Somehow it seems to get caught up in the macho nationalist trip. Odd too, that on the one hand they protest loudly that Israeli intentions and methods are peaceful and they are victims set against a daunting and implacable foe, yet when the chips are down they do a double take, for the IDF must be seen to be invincible.

Its an ego thing, really. The identity seems so wrapped up in the national zeigiest, that on the one hand Israeli must be presented as a ultimately good peaceful and just, yet also must have unassailable super human military power. Israel can do no wrong -- a humble servant of justice on the one hand and a military super-power at the same time.

The conundrums that true believers are presented with are astounding, and keeping all those logical balls in the air breathtaking, if silly:

So which is it, Chairm, Israel is a victim on the edge of annihilation, or one of the worlds most powerful countries whith an untouchable army?

Nonetheless...

quote:

---

Voices expressing concern over the armed forces' failures are getting louder. One Israeli cabinet minister said last week: 'We gave the army so much money. Why are we getting these results?' Last week saw Hizbollah's guerrilla force, dismissed by senior Israeli military officials as 'ragtag', inflict further casualties on one of the world's most powerful armies in southern Lebanon. At least 12 elite troops, the equivalent of Britain's SAS, have already been killed, and by yesterday afternoon Israel's military death toll had climbed to 45.

---

Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chairm:

Regardless of your opinion about that, there is an agreement of fact that has been expressed in the previous comments of others here: The Golan is Syrian territory occupied by Israel.

---

It is completely illegal.

Here we see the jugling act again. A demand for Lebanon to conform to 1559, while prevericating 242.

Bi-polar morality.

Anyway, I noticed you have given up arguing that the Arabs started the 1967 war. I started a thread on that as you asked, but you seem to have missed it. Perhaps you really just wanted to keep that ball out of play.

So, you were saying that you know better than Menachme Begin, Yitshak Rabin, General Peled, and former US Secretary of State Dean Rusk:

He was pissed...

quote:

---

“They attacked on a Monday, knowing that on Wednesday the Egyptian vice-president would arrive in Washington to talk about re-opening the Strait of Tiran. We might not have succeeded in getting Egypt to reopen the Strait, but it was a real possibility.”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orwell:
Chairm and other apologists for Israel, I think it might be time to play the anti-semite card and stop all the Israel 'bashing' on this PC forum. Since your arguments are simply becoming boring.

---

Not quite as boring as all the Islamic terrorisim apologists.has anyone even bothered to read the Hizballah charter.

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel (See ICT Note)
We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.

"Islamic terrorism apologists" = "Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people."

All they are saying is get the hell out of their lands. You Zionists know no bounds, do you?

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: orwell ]

Okay and?

quote:

---

Originally posted by astrocreep2000:

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel (See ICT Note)

We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

---

When will the Israeli Knesset pass a law defining the territorial limit of Israel? As it stands now the country has no official limit to its domain. This is no accident, as early Zionists proclaimed immense intentions and in fact it is true that Theodore Herzl procalimed that he was going to ask the Ottoman Sultan for everything from "the Euphrates to the Nile."

I don't see how Zionists can demand that their Arab enemies must be reasonable and think in 21st century terms and accept Israel's territory as it stands today when Israel has set no legal territorial definition for itself, nor ever officially renounced Theodore Herzl's grand 19th century plan.

When will Israel officially recognize the right of the Arab states to live in peace and security?

Demanding such of them, but not offering the same is more bi-polar morality.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

posted by Ohara 06 August 2006

While some here will not like the messenger still instructive

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer072806.php3

---

The Jewish world review that you provided is not complete, Ohara.

Israel's campaign of terror on Lebanon (and Gaza) was pre-planned. Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers is simply a pretext, a useful propaganda tool.

quote:

---

I agree that the reason for the war was not the kidnapping of the soldiers. It was a pretext to implement a pre-planned attack, coordinated with the US. Forty minutes after the soldiers were taken captive, Israeli jets were bombarding Lebanon with the full and immediate support of the US, not the Hezbollah. Secondly, the unprecedented support of the US to Israel, including shipping of bombs and petrol, instead of working for peace, as a superpower should, indicated how closely the coordination was and how well the Israeli operations serves the so called American war against terror - a euphemism for imposing American control in the areas of natural resources and energies. -Ilan Pappe

---

Source: http://tinyurl.com/jzdoj

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]

quote:

---

This miserable war in Lebanon, which is just getting more and more complicated for no reason at all, was born in Israel's greed for land. Not that Israel is fighting this time to conquer more land, not at all, but ending the occupation could have prevented this unnecessary war. If Israel had returned the Golan Heights and signed a peace treaty with Syria in a timely fashion, presumably this war would not have broken out.

Peace with Syria would have guaranteed peace with Lebanon and peace with both would have prevented Hezbollah from fortifying on Israel's northern border. Peace with Syria would have also isolated Iran, Israel's true, dangerous enemy, and cut off Hezbollah from one of the two sources of its weapons and funding. It's so simple, and so removed from conventional Israeli thinking, which is subject to brainwashing.

For years, Israel has waged war against the Palestinians with the main motive of insistence on keeping the occupied territories. If not for the settlement enterprise, Israel would have long since retreated from the occupied territories and the struggle's engine would have been significant neutralized. Not that a non-occupying Israel would have turned into the darling of the Arab world, but the destructive fire aimed at Israel would have significantly lessened, and those who continued to fight Israel would have found themselves isolated.

---

quote:

---

[Israel's occupation of Golan Heights] is completely illegal.

---

Disagreement about that may be a sticky point for you, but you have already conceded that, in your determined view, the territory is Syrian. Not part of Lebanon.

The Hezbollah were not delegated the authority to raise/settle border disputes with Syria, via attacks on Israel or in any other more rational and constructive manner.

Lebanon, Syria, and Israel are sovereign neighbors and each has the right to exist and to defend itself. Peace terms would establish that as a mutual understanding that accompanies mutual borders. Internal political factions armed to the teeth are not legitimate negotiators of these mutual borders.

Moving on to the another point: What authority, if any, was delegated to the Hezbollah in its operations along the Lebanon/Isarael border?

* * * *

quote:

---

I noticed you have given up arguing that the Arabs started the 1967 war. I started a thread on that as you asked, but you seem to have missed it.

---

[The previous discussion was being dragged off-topic and I only suggested that some readers and commentators might wish to follow you to another thread to discuss your mistaken opinions about the war of 1967. The "yawn" in your thread title telegraphed a lack of seriousness and not a sincere invitation.]

Meanwhile it is 2006 and there is a war that was started against Israel by an independent militia with no national authority to act on behalf of Lebanon in a border dispute over Syrian territory.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Chairm ]

quote:

---

Meanwhile it is 2006 and there is a war that was started against Israel by an independent militia with no national authority to act on behalf of Lebanon in a border dispute over Syrian territory -Chairm

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Actually the Israeli's rabid aggression was pre-planned by the USA and Israel (for their diabolic "New Middle East" scheme). Hizbollah's capture of the two Israeli soldiers presented a pretext. That they are giving Israel a hard time (the fourth week now?) is another topic.
A war ? An Israeli campaign of killing, maiming and destruction would be more correct. The world's fourth largest military power against a Hizbollah, composed of no more than six thousand poorly armed individuals.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]

A new middle east could just as well have been negotiated. Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel and that changed things significantly. A third border, between Israel and Lebanon, was certified and could have become the precursor to a negotiated peace. Even the relatively long, and largely peaceful, ceasefire line between Syria and Israel could have been transformed in negotiations for a lasting peace.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chairm:

[The previous discussion was being dragged off-topic and I only suggested that some readers and commentators might wish to follow you to another thread to discuss your mistaken opinions about the war of 1967. The "yawn" in your thread title telegraphed a lack of seriousness and not a sincere invitation.]

Meanwhile it is 2006 and there is a war that was started against Israel by an independent militia with no national authority to act on behalf of Lebanon in a border dispute over Syrian territory.

[ 06 August 2006: Message edited by: Chairm ]

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No in fact the previous discussion was not being dragged off topic.

In fact, you assert and continue to assert that Israel gets "right of possession" of the Golan Heights, because they were attacked in 1967. It is you who insist on making this point a corner stone of your arguement on the subject of Sheba farms, which is integral to the discussion at hand.

I now see that you are actually avoding dealing with uncomfortable facts of how Israel came into possession of this piece of property, and that you really were just trying to eschew counter discussion by slieght of hand for convenience.

I am sorry if your world view can't hold up under close analysis. Avoidance is only a quasi-functional response to self-examination.

This thread is long, so I'll start a new one.