quote:

---

Stephen Cohen: Two reactions to this article were particularly noteworthy when it first appeared in The Nation almost exactly one year ago. Judging by activity on the magazine's website and by responses sent to me personally, it was very widely read and discussed both in the United States and in Russia, where it was quickly translated on a Russian-language site. And, unlike most Russian commentators, almost every American specialist who reacted to the article, directly or indirectly, adamantly disputed my thesis that US-Russian relations had deteriorated so badly they should now be understood as a new cold war--or possibly as a continuation of the old one.

---

Cohen concludes:

quote:

---

What must be done, however, is clear enough. Because the new cold war began in Washington, steps toward ending it also have to begin in Washington. Two are especially urgent, for reasons also explained in the article: A US recognition that post-Soviet Russia is not a defeated supplicant or American client state, as seems to have been the prevailing view since 1991, but a fully sovereign nation at home with legitimate national interests abroad equal to our own; and an immediate end to the reckless expansion of NATO around Russia's borders.

---

It looks like the second piece of advice is being ignored by the US administration.

A great service that Cohen provides is to demonstrate, conclusively, the continuity between the Clinton and Bush II administrations. And that is an important truth when some people base their analysis on the notion of "a cabal of zealots has taken control of the White House" when it is abundantly clear that, in many respects, what is common between the Clinton and Bush regimes is of more importance that what is different between them.

Cohen makes reference to a US-built reverse iron curtain and an anti-Russian fatwa by US administrations alike and asks, in his article:

quote:

---

Twenty years ago, when the world faced exceedingly grave cold war perils, Gorbachev unexpectedly emerged from the orthodox and repressive Soviet political class to offer a heretical way out. Is there an American leader today ready to retrieve that missed opportunity?

---

It seems that neither Obama nor McCain are up to the task.

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.Beltov:

A great service that Cohen provides is to demonstrate, conclusively, the continuity between the Clinton and Bush II administrations.
[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

---

I've often found this point fascinating. It is quite surprising that the Bush administration didn't try to redefine its terms with Russia and blame the disintegrating relationship on the previous administration in lieu of the history of partisanship that exists within that group. Moreover, it seems that Russia's adaptations to the transition to a market economy have proven to be quite brittle - as Cohen notes, based primarily on the strength of world energy prices.

Now, however, the Russians are selling aircraft carriers. Interesting.

A brief look at Russia

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

More astonishing is a Council on Foreign Relations "task force report" on Russia, co-chaired by Democratic presidential aspirant John Edwards, issued in March. The "nonpartisan" council's reputed moderation and balance are nowhere in evidence. An unrelenting exercise in double standards, the report blames all the "disappointments" in US-Russian relations solely on "Russia's wrong direction" under Putin--from meddling in the former Soviet republics and backing Iran to conflicts over NATO, energy politics and the "rollback of Russian democracy."

.... Urging more Western intervention in Moscow's political affairs, the report even reserves for Washington the right to reject Russia's future elections and leaders as "illegitimate."

---

Here

edit:: N. Beltov, thank you for that link to the Russian carrier program!

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: Jingles ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papal Bull:

edit:: N. Beltov, thank you for that link to the Russian carrier program!

---

Mark Ames has an interesting and very recent piece over at The Nation called Getting Georgia's War On. In it, he makes some good points ... especially about Republican candidate McCain and his connections to Georgian "strongman" Saakashvili. We have:

quote:

---

Reuters: At the request of Russia, the U.N. Security Council held an emergency session in New York but failed to reach consensus early Friday on a Russian-drafted statement.

The council concluded it was at a stalemate after the United States, Britain and some other members backed the Georgians in rejecting a phrase in the three-sentence draft statement that would have required both sides "to renounce the use of force," council diplomats said.

---

Says Ames: "The meaning of this is clear: the United States and Britain are backing Saakashvili's invasion."

Ames also points out the financial connections between Republican Presidential candidate John McCain and Georgian "strongman" Saakashvili. "Sen. McCain has endorsed Georgia's goal of entering NATO, a matter for which the country hired Mr. Scheunemann to lobby." Neocon Randy Scheunemann, you see, is McCain's top foreign policy advisor.

If a war, or conflict, involving the connections of a Republican candidate was started in the run-up to an election, it wouldn't be the first time now, would it?

Isn't this how American "democracy" actually works? Cosmetic elections and a war if necessary? And they've got so many to choose from: Georgia, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, ...

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Unless you're a big fan of Jane's Fighting Ships, you're not missing much Rosa.

---

Ha! I have some unusual interests, but that isn't one of them! I misread the comment - it's the ticker-tape thing I can't load.

From the article you cited:

quote:

---

an "investor call" that Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze made this morning with some fifty leading Western investment bank managers and analysts. I've since seen a J.P. Morgan summary of the conference call, which pretty much reflects the talking points later picked up by the US media.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papal Bull:
Often times I have heard the fear of really corrupt Russian officials selling off these weapons. Why would they do that?

---

Well for one, the U.S. withdrew from the Anti-ballistic Missile Treaty in 2002 which stated that no signatory country would pursue anti-ballistic missile shield.

Senior U.S. officials helped Pakistan obtain banned nuclear weapons technology This was a country that had three military coups within 30 years, and a country that helped the CIA, Saudis, and Brits to spread militant Islam in Central Asia and Balkans.

Washington threatens North Korea, Iran while expanding US arsenal 2005

quote:

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The situation is really quite shocking. The US and two of the dominant countries in the European Union are facilitating violent policies in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebanon and, now, Georgia. They are making demands upon Iran that increase the chances of war there as well. Germany is supportive in all instances, except this new Georgian adventure, probably because of its closer ties with the Russian Federation.

Few seem to understand that a red line has been crossed in South Ossetia. The US and the EU, with the assistance of Israel, is now openly using military force is in their political and economic competition with the Russians in the Caucasus and Central Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
Even more shocking: The US has agreed to ferry 2,000 Georgian troops by US military aircraft...Legally, that's an act of war.

---

Do you think it will be taken as such?

In the first thread there is a video showing a large number of SAMs in several Russian Army columns moving towards the front lines.

quote:

---

Originally posted by M. Spector:
I don't know how the Russians will take it. But they'd be perfectly within their rights to blow the US aircraft right out of the sky.

What would happen then?

---

Well, seeing as how Abkhazia is at the moment honouring its pledge to protect South Ossetia, by moving its troops into a district bordering Georgia, and Putin and Medvedev have met and discussed things, it would seem as if the Russians are not going to let this go.

After all would Abkhazia move its troops in without knowing Russia was going to back them?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
Shouldn't we be on the side of poor little Georgia in its fight against Russian imperialism?

---

quote:

---

What about 30 thousand Ossetians purged from their homeland?

---

quote:

---

This is what the USA wants, they want to get involved.

---

Also, as much as I think Russia is moving beyond influence from the US, I still think Russia would have tipped off the US prior to acting. Like a respectful nod between crime families. But then that begs the question, what is the quid pro quo?

quote:

---

Shouldn't we be on the side of poor little Georgia in its fight against Russian imperialism?

---

The important question is far simpler: Does Russia have the right to intervene in a sovereign state? The West has already set the precedence with Kosovo, but does that make it right or equally wrong?

But before we address that, I hope this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

What about 30 million people killed by your hero Stalin?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

What about 30 million people killed by your hero Stalin?

---

If you are able to point us to a reputable source, I'll be happy to point out the truths as well as what will likely be right-wing propaganda.

So why would you, once again, be taking the pro-USSA/vicious empire's side with this geopolitical event - and is already being described as having similarities to events leading up to U.S.-NATO interference with and subsequent bombing of Yugoslavia, another sovereign country destroyed by IMF-Washington consensus followed by routine Gladio terror?

quote:

---

Here at Robert Lindsay(blog), we are getting sick and tired of endlessly refuting this the "murderous Jewish Communism" line, not to mention the "murderous Communism" line. The real killing system is called capitalism. Under the Soviet Communists, life expectancy, as McNally implies below, increased from 32 in 1913 to 63 in 1956.

That set a world record for the quickest doubling of life expectancy by any nation in history. Most of that increase in life expectancy occurred under Stalin. By that standard, incredible as it sounds, Stalin was one of the greatest humanitarians of all time. . .

Progress continued even with the incredible loss of 27 million Soviet citizens by the Nazi aggression of the Great War Against Fascism. Interestingly, all progress in life expectancy in the Soviet Union ended by about 1960-1965, about 10 years after Stalin's death. This gives the lie to the notion that life expectancy increases were inevitable at this time no matter what the system. . .

But evidence, based on my calculations after reading the data here and here (warning - the latter link is actually a 275 page book), indicates that Stalin saved 39 million lives (the evidence shows 35 million, but to arrive at that, we must subtract the 4 million he killed), or around 1.5 million per year during his tenure.

This is why Russian opinion polls show 35% of Russian would support Stalin returning to power. This is why you see aging Russians carrying Stalin's picture at rallies. It's not some sick "Stalin cult". He really did save lives, and these people remember that well.

---

Jeez, Stalin might be more electable than Dubya and maybe even Stephane Dion today under an obsolete first past the majority plutocracy. Father Stalin could even win phony-majority dictatorship in Russia today if they hadn't switched to a proportional system in the meantime.

"World wide capitalism kills more people every day than hitler did. And he was crazy." - Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

He was also a mass murderer.

And this is the paradox.

Ukrainian famine not a genocide By Alexander Solzhenitsyn

[ 09 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by N.Beltov:
They never had, unlike the US, a first strike military doctrine and, therefore, much less of a pressing need to construct the equipment that could carry out such a doctrine in practice.

---

quote:

---

But before we address that, I hope this:

quote riginally posted by Stockholm:

What about 30 million people killed by your hero Stalin?

Gets you banned.

---

Unfortunately for you, your friend "Fidel" is quite unapologetic about defending Stalin. If anyone should be "banned" it should be people who claim to be progressive and then defend murderous fascistic dictators like Stalin or Mugabe - not people who condemn those thugs.

Its common knowledge that Stalin killed at least 10 million people by purposely creating a famine in Ukraine. he killed untold millions in his purges of 1936-1938 and God only knows how many lives were lost as a result of his deals with Hitler and his total mismanagement of the Second World War in the beginning. Then there were millions more killed when Russian troops were told to kill anyone in Eastern Europe who wasn't a Stalinist Communist. In Poland, the entire leadership of the Polish Communist Party was massacred because they were thought to be too independent-minded and not enthusiastic enough about the Stalinist personality cult.

You can try to dispute that Stalin was one of history's worst mass killers, just like some people can try to claim that the Holocaust never took place. I don't see the point. Why should people on the left feel they need to defend someone who was essentially a garden variety brutal murderous dictator.

...and now, some people are so brainwashed into defending Russia (from years of being apologists for everyone from Lenin to Stalin to Brezhnev), that even when Russia has become a totally rightwing capitalist country, led by a thugish ex-KGB agent - people still have a knee jerk reaction to defend what Russia is doing.

Russia commits mass murders in Chechnya, now in Georgia - they are clearly to become an imperialist force again and regain control of all the areas that were once the Soviet Union - but this time it's not about exporting socialism or Marxist-Leninism (if it was then I suppose you MIGHT be able to try to defend it), its just pure unadulterated Russian imperialism and Russian attempts to expand their power in the world - for pure nationalistic reasons - its not about making life better for anyone - it's just more power to Russia.

quote:

---

Meawnhile Time Magazine was busy in 1945 or 46 awarding Stalin Man of the Year accolades.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
I think the world needs FEWER imperialist super-powers, not more of them.

---

Another anti-U.S. rant, Stock?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
...I think the world needs FEWER imperialist super-powers, not more of them.

---

quote:

---

If anyone should be "banned" it should be people who claim to be progressive and then defend murderous fascistic dictators like Stalin or Mugabe

---

Throughout history, one person's mass murderer has been another's hero. And unfortunately, people are two stupid, sectarian, greedy, and hypocritical to actually ever take a truly moral position on every conflict that arises.

In fact, comparing US and Western response to this little conflagration and comparing it to the murderous Israeli invasion of Lebanon (which you supported didn't you Stockholm?) just a short while ago is fascinating as a study in sheer double-standards and bald-faced hypocrisy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

...and now, some people are so brainwashed into defending Russia (from years of being apologists for everyone from Lenin to Stalin to Brezhnev), that even when Russia has become a totally rightwing capitalist country, led by a thugish ex-KGB agent - people still have a knee jerk reaction to defend what Russia is doing.

---

You completely missed the opportunity to point out western Gladio terror and economic warfare waged against Russia and Yugoslavia, U.S. funding of al Qaida terror in places like Chechnya and Dagestan etc. But someone like you is entirely unininterested in the truth, Stockholmer. You're an historical deadhead as far as I can tell. Reader's Digest and Globe and Mail are surely your main goto sources for news.

The vicious empire was never interested in peaceful relations with Russia.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

---

And why don't we include racist, fascistic murderers like Sharon, Olmert, and Nethanyahoo? Ah, wait ... sorry, killers you appreciate, no?

---

Sure, why not. I've never defended any of those individuals. I want Israel to elect a leftwing government that is willing to make concessions to the Arabs and negotiate peace.

quote:

---

Throughout history, one person's mass murderer has been another's hero.

---

Oh, OK then what will be your reaction if someone starts a thread defending Hitler, Franco and Pinochet? Your mass murderer is another person's hero.

So I guess the logical conclusion is that no one should be allowed to denounce anyone at all - because someone else might see things differently!

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

Further, a left wing government will make no difference in Israel. It isn't the slant of the government that is the problem. It is the racially supremacist nature of the state ideology that gives us oppression, repression, a militarism to match none other, a constant agitation for more war, and a ready willingness to murder other human beings as though they were vermin.

quote:

---

Oh, OK then what will be your reaction if someone starts a thread defending Hitler, Franco and Pinochet? Your mass murderer is another person's hero.

---

quote:

---

So I guess the logical conclusion is that no one should be allowed to denounce anyone at all - because someone else might see things differently!

---

The logical conclusion would be to condemn all aggression and demand international institutions to which no nation can claim an exemption.

We starved and killed millions of Iraqis, primarily children (and I believe you defended that as well) through an illegal sanctions regime for allegedly violating a UN resolution. And yet the US, Russia, and Britain are in violation of many, many international treaties. The US, in particular, regularly thumbs its nose at international obligations, and yet there are never consequences.

We can throw our hands up and say, "well, the US is just too powerful," or we can put our values where are greed is and hold the US, and other nations, to the same standards as we hold the smallest and weakest countries.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

The question now is, how much will Russia punish Georgia for killing 1,400 or more Ossetians?

The NATO plans to further encircle Russia with a reverse iron curtain look to have, temporarily, stopped in Georgia. I can't see the Russians allowing NATO to build attack bases in Georgia now.

Edited to add: NATO blew it. A billion dollars in military "aid" to Georgia, up from the mere tens of millions quite recently, and all they've done is woken up a bear from hibernation. Such bears are slow to anger but probably very hungry.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

Evidently, you think people should be banned for saying any nasty about Stalin, but spewing invective against Israel is A-OK

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
...So we are back to square one "Four legs good, two legs bad".

---

quote:

---

The question now is, how much will Russia punish Georgia for killing 1,400 or more Ossetians?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
I keep picturing Jumbo the elephant going "eeek! a mouse!"

---

quote:

---

Russia's deputy foreign minister said at least 2,000 people, mostly South Ossetians who claim Russian citizenship, have been killed in Tskhinvali.

---

quote:

---

Frustrated Mess: Russia is now claiming the same right - to destroy Georgia's military capability before a cessation of hostilities.

---

Do you have a source for that?

Even with Georgia not in NATO, there will be all sorts of secret arrangements between that country and NATO in place. You don't get a billion dollars in military "aid" for nothing.

And the Russians will know that.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

I wonder what new equipment NATO is keen to try out against the Russians?

The Republican candidate for US President John McCain, with his close connections to Georgia through his main foreign policy advisor, must be keen to see this conflict flare up. I expect some really incendiary remarks from McCain right now.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:
This is what the USA wants, they want to get involved.

In the first thread there is a video showing a large number of SAMs in several Russian Army columns moving towards the front lines.

They are more than capable to destroy an aircraft transport aircraft.

---

Thank you for pointing this out, as with dial up, larger than 30 sec clips, are simply not worth the time wasted.

What are SAM's, and how many columns, and how many in 1?

I'm surprised that the conspiracy theorists aren't claiming that the US is backing Russia. Bush and Putin sure seem "buddy-buddy" when they meet - they have a lot in common both being unscrupulous imperialists.

quote:

---

August 10 (Itar-Tass) - The Russian side has not received, up to this time, any official proposal from the Georgian authorities on ending combat operations in the zone of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict, deputy chief of the Russian General Staff Anatoly Nogovitsyn told a news conference on Sunday.

“The Russian side has not received, as of this Sunday, any official proposal from the Georgian side on stopping the bloodshedding in the conflict zone,” he said.

---

quote:

---

Stockholm: I'm actually going to Russia later this month on holiday. It will be interesting to see what the local perspective is.

---

quote:

---

The Russian embassy in Tbilisi has reportedly received a note from the Georgian president saying his country is stopping military action in South Ossetia. Russia’s Interfax news agency reports that Mikhail Saakashvili ordered his army to stop firing on Sunday. However, the Russian Foreign Ministry says Georgia has yet to end hostilities.

---

http://www.russiatoday.com/

quote:

---

Try your anti-Russian fatwa over there. I'm sure the locals will love you for it.

---

quote:

---

However, the Russian Foreign Ministry says Georgia has yet to end hostilities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
I'm surprised that the conspiracy theorists aren't claiming that the US is backing Russia. Bush and Putin sure seem "buddy-buddy" when they meet - they have a lot in common both being unscrupulous imperialists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

Thank you for pointing this out, as with dial up, larger than 30 sec clips, are simply not worth the time wasted.

What are SAM's, and how many columns, and how many in 1?

Do you believe this is the line drawn in the sand between the USA and Russia?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fidel:
Ukraine, another U.S. client state

---

In between you calling Holodomor not genocide, and then posting an article by a zealous Russian nationalist (also, one of my favourite authors), and then accusing Ukraine of being a US "client state"...I don't know. Mildly offensive as a person of Ukrainian heritage.

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:
Well, why would they have their 2000 soldiers flown home if they were ceasing hostilities? There is no mention anywhere it seems about them now staying in Iraq.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by remind:

Thank you for pointing this out, as with dial up, larger than 30 sec clips, are simply not worth the time wasted.

What are SAM's, and how many columns, and how many in 1?

Do you believe this is the line drawn in the sand between the USA and Russia?

---

SAMs are surface to air missiles platforms, in the video(s) there was at least a dozen of various types indicating several things.

Certain types of SAM protect certain targets such as headquarters, artillery units, tanks. I saw at least three different types indicating the Russian forces are very large, at least 40,000 men.

Depending on the SAM and its role will indicate the range of the missile, the more important the target it protects the longer than range of the missile.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papal Bull:

In between you calling Holodomor not genocide, ... Mildly offensive as a person of Ukrainian heritage.

---

No, "I" did not say the famine was not genocide. I only posted what Solzhenitsyn said about it. He spoke for millions of people not me.

And, I happen to have relatives in Britain. They've been farmers there, too, for over five centuries. It doesn't stop me from acknowledging the brutal and bloody history of several British-Imperialist orchestrated genocides perpetrated in India and elsewhere, and ongoing today.

quote:

---

and if you're going to call Ukraine a client state, I expect you to back that up with information. The fact that Yushenko has an American-Ukrainian wife doesn't count. Remember, it is still a democratically elected government...

---

We can have methodical and persistent U.S. political interference in Ukraine, Georgia, former Yugoslavia etc, or we can have democracy. But not both.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:
Yes, this situation could be used to draw a line in the sand between Russia and USA.
I have a feeling that a comprise in this conflict could be used for upcoming Iran situation.

---

I don't care how much support they got from the US- what would possess them to think they could pull that off?

What Georgian government- let alone a highly nationalist one- could politically afford to do that?

How are they are suppossed to move from their apparently insane attempt to retake Ossentia [or at least move as if they were doing that] to a 'compromise' enshrines the situation they found unacceptable even when it was supposedly temporary?

Lines on the ground of where everyone agrees to 'stand down' are no doubt necessary- but I can't how that is some kind of compromise. Nor is it going to be stable.

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenS:

Even if we agree for the purposes of discussion that the US told them they would get support, what would possess them to go ahead without explicit guarantees of the kind of military support that would have been required [which the US would not give]?

---

William Engdahl said last month:

quote:

---

Moscow’s possible strategy

Moscow has stepped up ties with the two small republics against the backdrop of Georgia’s NATO bid and Western recognition of Kosovo's independence from Serbia. Russia, however, has not formally recognized Abkhazia or South Ossetia.

Moscow has long backed Abkhazia's de facto independence however. It has granted Russian citizenship to many of its residents and recently legalized economic ties with the separatist republic. For Russia, the conflict provides a source of leverage on both Abkhazia and Georgia. The more Georgia seeks to distance itself from Russia, the more Russia throws its weight behind Abkhazia.

However Georgia under Washington’s man, strongman President Mikhail Saakashvili—a pretty ruthless dictator as he recently showed against domestic opposition—refuses to back off its provocative NATO bid.

---

Why would only anti-Moscow stooges receive financial support from NED-CIA and Soros Foundation? There's never any deviation from this flavour of political interference on a pretty consistent basis. Ah! I seem to remember something about a cold war. As in, for most of my lifetime anyway

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Russia supplies Iran with military equipment such as the SAMs mentioned earlier plus other hardware in order to have access to Iran resources and area of influence.

I suppose the comprise could be having each nation having accesses to Iran after the conflict is over.

I just feel there are backroom deals being organized by several nations, and there are likely deals within deals.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:

What about 30 million people killed by your hero Stalin?

---

Well over 100 million between 1947 and 1979 in democratic capitalist India alone.

quote:

---

Fact- in the French Revolution, during the 'Terror' only 25 hundred people lost their heads.

---

Oh "only" 2500 people got guillotined during the reign of terror. I'm sure that's great consolation to those people and their families.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:
Well I am not sure of what comprise to be honest however both nations have common strategic level goals such as terrorism/break away provinces, oil and natural resources.

---

But I would oil and natural resources have much to do with it.

quote:

---

I suppose the comprise could be having each nation having accesses to Iran after the conflict is over.

I just feel there are backroom deals being organized by several nations, and there are likely deals within deals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Webgear:
I have a feeling that a comprise in this conflict could be used for upcoming Iran situation.

---

Bingo. Russian willingness to prosecute serious military action against what is for all intents a purposes as proto-US client, probably has as much to do with showing Russian willingness to confront the US internationally, as the situation in Georgia itself.

The timing of these events and the recent Israeli wargames in the gulf, and the reinforcement of US naval assets in Gulf are very likely linked -- two more US aircraft carriers are headed to the gulf, so says the Jerusalem Post. As much as anything the Russians may be indicating that unilateral action against Iran may be opposed.

It is noteworthy that Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia make up the land link between Russia and Iran. I looked at google earth today and noticed that Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are lacking in any road maps. Is that normal?

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenS:
I'm curious to see some knowledgable speculation about what would prompt the Georgians to think they could go into Ossentia and 'kick the rebels out'.

I don't care how much support they got from the US- what would possess them to think they could pull that off?...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
Okay, you guys, simmer down. Stockholm, you're the one who wrote the original nasty comment about Fidel supporting Stalin, clearly baiting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cueball:

It is noteworthy that Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia make up the land link between Russia and Iran. I looked at google earth today and noticed that Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are lacking in any road maps. Is that normal?

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

---

It is normal in a time of war, all links on Russian Army Order of Battles vanished the other day for some strange reason.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stockholm:
Why should anyone have to die in a so-called revolution at all? I'd like to see a revolution happen just once, where the leaders renounce any use of the death penalty and refuse to kill anyone at all!

---

Stockholm, I've already asked you to stay out of the thread. Post again in it and you'll have your account suspended.

Fidel, I've asked twice now for people to let it go. Do I need to tell you to stay out of this thread too? Next off-topic post from you, and I will.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

---

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel, Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”

This has not gone down well in the Kremlin. Therefore, as the military crisis intensifies in South Ossetia, Moscow may be expected to punish Israel for its intervention.

---

quote:

---

About South Ossetia:

South Ossetia and Abkhazia IS NOT Georgian territories ! They became independent in 1991. After Soviet Union break. And now it's military aggrerssion from georgian president.

About real situation and Western Media point of view:

Guys, don't allow CNN or georgian president blow up your mind. They say alot of the things Saakashvilli wants ! They are talking about victims from georgian side, but look at the victims from Ossetian side. It's a disaster. Georgia started bombing South Ossetia in the night of Aug,8. They are bombig civilians by tanks, aviations
SHAME CNN/SKY NEWS! CNN gives news from Georgian capital, they are talking about victims from georgian side... You are not interested about thousands of killed in Soutn Ossetia. Why your journalists out of that region ??? No one correspondetns, no one western journalist in Soutn Ossetia... they are all in Tbilisi ( Georgian capital ). Why you didn't show to americans what georgian regime made there ??? Why they don't tell how georgian troops killing civilians on the street of South Ossetia... let's americans will see how they killed wounded peoples... I saw video from Gori, 1 missle blast in civilians building Russian Army made ( they was attaking georgian tanks which continue to bomb Tsinvall, but made 1 wrong blast ), but what about destroyed Tshinvall ??? There no one unbreakable house ! It's like you are loving human rights . And a half of the words Saakashvilli said is a lie ! He lies on air, he lies about the situation there. He has started this disaster, cause South Ossetian peoples should be killed as he wants. Move your journalists in South Ossetia, ask peoples what happends there.
Looking CNN you might think that it's A Rissia do all this shit. Don't trust it.

It's a MILITARY AGGRESSION FROM GEORGIA.

I was very disapointed when i saw how western mass media say about this conflit.

And when georgian president say that he wants stop fighting - it's a LIE !

Gergian president wants to be in NATO until december, but he needs have these breakway territories without any troubles. Without troubles - it's a kill of all South Ossetian peoples. All 100,000 peoples. And he started to kill them at Aug,8. When Olympic games started. SHAME ! SHAME ! To georgian president, shame you mr. liar

I understand that it's a point of view one of combating side, but as cnn gives time just for one side, you should know the point of view of another one:

Some russian news pages on english:

http://www.russiatoday.com

http://www.interfax.com/

http://en.rian.ru/

http://www.rbcnews.com/
Andrew | 10 Aug, 12:23 | #

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[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

Sochi, a Black Sea resort, not far from the current conflict, is also the proposed site for a future 2014 Olympics on Russian territory. Now Sochi has been the site for some "anonymous" bomb attacks in recent months - the second such deadly attack in 5 weeks took place on the Thursday before the Georgian attack.

Bomb kills 2 and injures 13 in blast

The timing of the attack, then, could also be an attempt to torpede the Sochi Olympics, timed with the anonymous bombings, provoking a Russian response, etc etc. Of course the attention of the entire world is on Bejing right now, with the Olympiad there. Wheels within wheels.

It's an idea, anyway.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

Thanks Spector for that link to the American Leftist blog; interesting stuff. On a related note yesterday I heard a rumour that Azerbaijan had halted their oil shipments through Georgia as a consequence of Russia's bombing of port facilities. Today I had the chance to confirm that rumour:

Azerbaijan Halts Shipments of Oil through Georgian Ports

The article quotes Georgian Foreign Ministry claims that,

quote:

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Russian aviation struck the international Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline on Saturday.

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He doesn’t explicitly mention this, but Georgia controlled the territory around the breakaway capital- which made it easy for them to attack. So maybe they decided to attack while they still had the option.

Also, from Defense News, NATO reaction. A particularly interesting aspect of this article is the mention of a mandate.

quote:

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But NATO is keen not to be drawn into the conflict.

"NATO does not have a mandate to play a direct role in the Caucasus," one Alliance official said.

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Note the use of the word "direct". It is clear that NATO has some sort of mandate to interfere in the affairs of Caucasus nations, but what exactly might that be? Clearly, there is already indirect involvement via the current shipment of "defensive" armaments from the US and Israel. How far does "direct" go?

edit:: from Kommersant claims of mercenaries. There is quite a bit of precedent in this claim. Given that the Cossacks, constitutionally given to policing, are involved now, it doesn't seem to far fetched that Georgia would seek out auxiliary support. The mention of "dark skin" makes it interesting, given that if I remember correctly, there were Ukrainian mercs in Ethiopia-Eritrea during their war. It would seem likely that there has probably been high level contacts between Georgia and Ukraine, and those mercenaries in Ukraine probably came home with new networks of other soldiers of fortune that could be tapped into by any government seeking their services.

[ 10 August 2008: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]