quote:

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The Vatican has beatified 498 Roman Catholics executed during the Spanish Civil War, in the largest ceremony of its kind ever held.

Most of the victims - nearly all of whom were clergy - were killed at the outset of the war in 1936, by militias fighting for the Republican government. [...]

The Roman Catholic Church was closely linked with the right-wing forces of General Francisco Franco, who won the war in 1939 and went on to impose nearly four decades of dictatorship.

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Emphasis added.

One thousand four hundred forty-eight (1,448) Canadian heroes volunteered to fight in Spain in 1936-38 in support of the democratically elected Spanish Republican government against the Franco fascists, allied with Hitler and Mussolini and the Roman Catholic Church. Of their number, seven hundred twenty-one (721) gave their lives.

Yet today, the Catholic Church, in its unregenerate support for reaction, honours the so-called "victims" of the Republicans.

quote:

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MADRID–The Vatican's decision to beatify 498 Roman Catholics killed during the Spanish Civil War has reawakened bitter memories of the church's role in the war

Today's rites in St. Peter's Square – the largest mass beatification ever held by the Vatican – has drawn tens of thousands of Spanish pilgrims to Rome.

It also comes just days before the Spanish parliament is expected to pass legislation – opposed by the church – to officially condemn atrocities on both sides of the war, a conflict that is a recurring subject of furious debate in Spain.

All but seven of the 498 beatified "martyrs" were priests deacons, seminarians, monks or nuns – ranging in age from 16 to 78 – killed by left-wing militias before and during the 1936-39 war.

The Catholic Church estimates that nearly 7,000 clergy were killed from 1931 to the war's end.

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Many Catholic clergy and Church leaders sided with Francisco Franco in the conflict, which began when the general led a military coup against the left-wing government of the then Spanish Republic and ended with his installation as a dictator.

Over decades, the Church in Spain has gathered evidence that hundreds of its members died during the conflict for their faith, making them eligible for beatification.

But the beatification process, a recognition accorded by the church of a dead person's accession to Heaven, has reawakened bitter memories of the Church's role in the Civil War.

The conflict is still a regular subject of furious debate in Spain and the Socialist government is promoting a law, opposed by the Church, to officially condemn the rule of Franco, who died in 1975.

The Association for Historic Memory, which searches for mass graves of people killed by Franco's forces, said: "The Catholic Church hierarchy is missing an opportunity to publicly recognise its responsibility for supporting Franco's military coup and helping the dictatorship."

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quote:

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Over decades, the Church in Spain has gathered evidence that hundreds of its members died during the conflict for their faith, making them eligible for beatification.

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But maybe Pio’s sainthood shouldn’t be so surprising. His canonization fits right in with Pope John Paul II’s conservative political agenda. Indeed, the politics of canonization have become overtly conservative under his pontificate. Early on in his tenure, the pope gutted the traditional process of canonization by abolishing the office of the Devil’s Advocate (a Vatican official who would voice all the arguments against canonization) and changing the rules for the number of miracles needed for canonization. (Prior to those changes, multiple miraculous works — usually cures of dire physical illnesses that cannot be explained by science — were required of those put up for sainthood. Historically, candidates needed two miracles for beatification and two for canonization. They now need only one for each.) While this might appear to be a progressive streamlining of the old-time Vatican bureaucracy, the reality is that it has made it easier for John Paul II to approve canonizations. Indeed, since his ascension to the Chair of Peter in 1978, John Paul II has canonized 283 new saints — more than were sainted in the 407 years directly preceding him. And they haven’t been just any saints. John Paul II has canonized those who fit his highly conservative political agenda.

In keeping with John Paul II’s strong anti-communism, for instance, he beatified four men in 2001 who had been murdered under the Soviet regime: Nikita Budka, who died in 1949; Josaphat Chichkov, who died in 1952; and Metodio Domenico Trcka and Kamen Vitcher, both of whom died in 1959. His frequent denunciations of South and Central American radical "liberation theology" were backed with appropriate saints: this year the Vatican beatified Maria Romero Meneses, a wealthy Nicaraguan nun who supported the Somoza regime and worked with the upper classes to help the poor. She died in 1977. Juan Diego, a peasant who died in 1548 and reportedly saw a vision of Our Lady of Guadalupe in 1531, was beatified in 1990. He was canonized this year and praised by the pope for humbly accepting his station in life. Of course, a decade passed before the name of left-leaning Salvadoran archbishop Oscar Romero — killed by right-wing assassins while saying Mass in 1980 and regarded by many in his country as a saint and martyr — was even allowed to be entered on the list of those put up for beatification.

The pope’s political prejudices were also evident in his 2001 beatification of the Martyrs of Valencia — pro-Franco clergy and lay people who died during the Spanish Civil War. Particularly notable was his treatment of José María Escrivá de Balaguer, a well-known Spanish anti-Semite, crucial supporter of Franco’s fascist regime, and founder of the right-wing Roman Catholic organization Opus Dei. De Balaguer died in 1975; he was beatified in 1992 and will be canonized in October of 2002. While he never openly supported Hitler, he was widely quoted as saying, "Hitler against the Jews, Hitler against the Slavonic, means Hitler against communism."

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Originally posted by RosaL:
I have read, too, that the Vatican hasput the canonization of Oscar Romero on the back burner.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

With all due respect - who cares? If they canonize Romero, this will benefit humanity? Or prove that the infernal old Church has some political smarts left in it?

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I didn't have anything like that in mind. I thought it was related to what you were talking about in your original post. The apparent refusal to canonize Romero seemed to me to be the flip side of the fascist canonizations.

[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by RosaL:

I didn't have anything like that in mind. I thought it was related to what you were talking about in your original post. The apparent refusal to canonize Romero seemed to me to be the flip side of the fascist canonizations.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:

Whether they canonize Romero or not (and I don't give a damn), they must not glorify fascism. Catholics should condemn the Pope for beatifying these so-called "martyrs" allied with the Spanish Fascists. If they want to spend their time lobbying for Romero, fine - but I hope you agree that one of these activities is optional, while the other is not.

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Argh!! Who said anything about lobbying for Romero? My point was NOT that Romero should be canonized! I mentioned the reluctance or refusal to canonize Romero only as "the flip side" of the canonization of fascist sympathizers. I was saying, in effect: "yes, and here's another instance of the same thing".

Perhaps mentioning a "flip side" example confused the issue. But I just don't know how to make myself any clearer.

[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
I don't think they would beatify Romero. Pope Nazinger only recently warned them in Latin America not to take sides politically. And the Church would probably not want it known that their own politically motivated priests helped dregs of the earth get into Canada, like Count Jacques Dugé de Bernonville and thousands more like him.

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yeah, "don't take sides politically!" As if the church doesn't take sides politically. What he means is, "don't side with the left". Somehow they don't see siding with the right as "political"!

[fixed a bizarre typo]

[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 28 October 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

I wonder when Nazinger will canonise the signers of the Reichskonkordat

Here's some photos the Vatican would like the masses to forget (including one of the Spanish priests that have just been canonised):

nazi christians

Toward the bottom are some pictures of the Deutsche Christen, a religious right evangelical movement that propelled Hitler to power.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Maybe Pope Nazinger should comb through some lists of his old buddies in the Hitler Youth and see whether any of them made it to the SS.

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I can only assume you were ignorant of these facts when you wrote your post.

I have met at least one old guy who was conscripted into the German army towards the end of WWII. He was maybe 16 at the time. He didn't say much about it but I'm sure it was a pretty horrible experience.

quote:

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happydays: I was just going to say the same thing as lagatta ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by happydays:

I was just going to say the same thing as lagatta - a 14 year-old that grew up in the kind of atmosphere that Ratzinger did - well, I don't really consider brainwashed children culpable for their actions, particularly actions of the "sheep following the leader" variety. And I don't buy "mature minor" arguments when it comes to, as lagatta says, children growing up in totalitarian regimes. Almost his entire childhood would have been spent being fed Nazi propaganda.

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1. I didn't see any comment by lagatta on this. Can you share it with us?

2. Who's blaming Ratzinger for what he did as a child?? This thread is about his support for Fascism today. He is 80 years old. He may have been fed Nazi propaganda as a child, but people are expected to come to terms with that and reject it as adults.

quote:

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However, considering that the guy is still homophobic, misogynist scum now, and there's certainly no excuse for that, I think it's rather interesting to look back and see that it's rooted in a Nazi upbringing and background. And it's amazing how he feels he has the right to judge others when he was directly involved in such a horrific genocide.

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[Edited to remove snarky comment. My excuse is that I'm home sick with a cold. ]

[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Or does he have to die first?

Joseph Ratzinger was 14 when he was forced to join the Hitler Youth - membership being mandatory for everyone at that age. When he was 16 he was conscripted into the military - deserting in 1945.
I can only assume you were ignorant of these facts when you wrote your post.

This was an answer to the above post:

I was just going to say the same thing as lagatta - a 14 year-old that grew up in the kind of atmosphere that Ratzinger did - well, I don't really consider brainwashed children culpable for their actions, particularly actions of the "sheep following the leader" variety. And I don't buy "mature minor" arguments when it comes to, as lagatta says, children growing up in totalitarian regimes. Almost his entire childhood would have been spent being fed Nazi propaganda.

To answer Free Radical's question, it would appear that Michelle new of Ratzingers situation as a 14 yr old.

I presented a post made by you indicating you did.

I never indicated that you agreed with the pope,
or supported the Catholic Church.

Here you go.

Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560
posted 28 June 2005 04:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Nazi nazi nazi nazi nazi. Pope Nazinger. Nazipope.

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By the time the Nazis took over in Hungary, Ratzinger was 17 years old, so he was certainly old enough to reflect on what he was doing. It would be absurd to judge such an indoctrinated youth as a war criminal, but I have seen no evidence of deep repentance for his part in Nazi persecutions of Jews and Roma in Hungary. And he has cast a hell of a lot of stones since then, for someone who is not "without sin".

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Source.

The point in this thread is not what youthful experiences led the Pope to become the Fascist apologist, misogynist, homophobe, and anti-human crusader that he is today.

Almost the entire German nation IMO has repented convincingly of the bestiality which swept them 75 years ago.

quote:

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Maybe. I don't know what I would have done had I been there. But then, I'm not in the position of being a moral leader for a fifth of the world's population, am I?
There were lots of people who DID refuse to go along with it, people who may have stronger convictions than me (I don't know, I've never been tested that way - I like to think I'd have hidden people or resisted), and who certainly had stronger ones than Ratface. Furthermore, his attitudes about women, gays and lesbians, ethnic minorities, and the structure of power he prefers (top-down, autocratic, inquisition-style) reflect what he learned then - he doesn't appear to have grown much on those issues, does he?

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The broader issue is that the Catholic church has had an unbelievably anti-semitic past. The leadership of the Catholic church was cozy with the Nazis during World War II.

And now, although they had many cardinals to choose from, who did they choose? They chose the one guy whose past included membership in the Hitler Youth, set up by a dictator to who was responsible for the largest mass killing of Jews ever, to indoctrinate youth to his philosophy.

Now, even that would be forgivable had the guy renounced his xenophobic, ultra-right attitudes afterwards in contrition. But did he? No, he did not. Since then, as you say, he has stood by his xenophobic European "purity" views, he has remained a committed misogynist who sees women as second-class citizens whose purpose in life is to procreate (kinder, kuche kirche, anyone?), and he believes in running the church (which is also a state) with an iron fist.

So it's entirely legitimate to criticize the church for the Nazi background of the Pope it chose to lead it. He may have only been a teenager at the time, but he learned his lessons well. And even if we think he's not at fault for what he became, the church is certainly at fault for putting him in a position of leadership.

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quote:

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Hephaestion:
Okay, you're right, Remo. Herr Ratface is not a Nazi. He's just a lying, pedophile-protecting scumbag.
Better?
---------
Michelle:
...who hates and persecutes gays, believes in kinder kuche kirche for women, and runs his organization like a fascist inquisitor.
Nope, nothing like a Nazi.

The attitudes were ingrained when he was part of a Nazi organization (whether he was forced to join or not), and he has never renounced those attitudes, except when it comes to Jews, and probably that only out of political expediency.

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[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

Actually, I am not an advocate for Omar Khadr and I am not very familiar, with what he was accused of.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I believe in Afghan culture, a boy becomes a man around the age of 12 if not sooner. Therefore he was a man in the eyes of his peers and family.

He may be a child soldier by western standards but in Afghanistan he was a man.

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Secondly, young "men" of 14, were Hitler Youth, they were considered "young men" by the German culture of that time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
I believe there is a large difference between a 16 year of this generation and a 16 year old from the 1940s.

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Yes indeed. The former is approximately 60 years younger than the latter. That is a large difference.

Do you really believe all those soldiers fought against Fascism or that maybe they joined for a bit of an adventure?

What is your view of the Russian military supplying tanks and aircraft to the conflict?

I really do not care what the Pope does or does not do with his organization, and I really do not understand why all you people care. How many babblers practicing Catholics?

If you are not Catholic why do you care who the Pope beatifies?

I doubt many Canadian teenagers of today’s generation could tell you anything about the Spanish Civil War, let alone why they should even join the fight.

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Do you really believe all those soldiers fought against Fascism or that maybe they joined for a bit of an adventure?

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That's impossible to know and it doesn't matter. We judge them by whether they fought in a just cause. I don't care whether a Wehrmacht soldier fought for adventure, or out of Nazi conviction, or because he was mixed up. He cannot be honoured, regardless of his motivation.

quote:

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What is your view of the Russian military supplying tanks and aircraft to the conflict?

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In the same way I view the Western allies supplying tanks and aircraft to the Soviets under lend-lease. It was a contribution to the struggle against Fascism.

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If you are not Catholic why do you care who the Pope beatifies?

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I don't care about the religious ceremony. I care about a man who has lots of influence and followers falsifying history and presenting oppressors as oppressed. It's part of a dangerous pattern of behaviour, including homophobia and misogyny and sectarian division, whose poisonous influence goes far beyond devotees.

quote:

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I doubt many Canadian teenagers of today’s generation could tell you anything about the Spanish Civil War, let alone why they should even join the fight.

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That is for warriors in each conflict to decide.

You are talking about morals, cultural differences and historical perspectives all which are individual’s values. History is written in a bias way; facts are lost, easily ignored or lost. History has never been written in a honest way.

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Webgear: How can you determine what cause is just and what cause is unjust? How can you determine if a Wehrmacht soldier did not fight honourable?

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That's apples and oranges; the issue of a just war versus a soldier doing his duty. It's not helpful to mix those different things together just as it's not helpful to blur the line between means and ends.

quote:

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That is for warriors in each conflict to decide.

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Which one of the previous statements does this refer to? Depending on which one, it leads to wildly different conclusions.

quote:

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You are talking about morals, cultural differences and historical perspectives all which are individual’s values. History is written in a bias way; facts are lost, easily ignored or lost. History has never been written in a honest way.

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I will take transparent and honest partisanship, along with clarity about goals and means over some imaginary unpartisan version of events.

quote:

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I view the MacPaps at best as mercenaries or at least of non-state terrorists in an insurgency. They maybe had just cause however they were interfering with another nation’s civil war. I believe that most of them fought honourable and that needs to acknowledge.

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The Mac Paps supported the elected Popular Front/republican government of Spain. That's why they were called Loyalists. Despite this, the Canadian government actively harrassed volunteers for the Mac Paps even after they returned to Canada. The Canadian government's antagonism was political in nature; it was more pro-fascist than pro-republican. Mercenaries are usually paid well, under the table or not, often by their own governments, and not harrassed as the Mac Paps were.

Given that the the "democratic" capitalist countries actively blocked support for republican Spain and the fascist capitalist countries used Spain as practice for World War II, it would be more honest to refer to Nazi and similar supporters of Franco as "interfering" in a civil war.

You're mixing up the honourableness of the soldiers with the justness of the cause again. These are not the same things at all. An honourable soldier can fight for an unjust cause and a dishonourable soldier can fight for a just cause.

Edited to add: Political discussion about war and conflict are much more about the justness of the cause and much less about the honourableness of the soldiers. In fact, the currently overworked expression, "Support the Troops" is precisely an effort to confuse the two and mislead Canadians into thinking that because Canadian soldiers are honourable that therefore the cause must be just. It's a very useful lesson in the exercise of propaganda and the manufacture of consent for an unjust war.

[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

quote:

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What is your view of the Russian military supplying tanks and aircraft to the conflict?

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1)That this does NOT discredit the antifascist side in the slightest.

2)That the USSR should have contributed even MORE ordnance to the antifascist side.

quote:

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I believe there is a large difference between a 16 year of this generation and a 16 year old from the 1940s. Cultural backgrounds apply to this difference of youth from the generations also; western youths are out of touch with reality.

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If our youth are so "out of touch with reality" then why do we still allow 16 year olds to enlist in the reserves?

I enlisted on my 17th birthday, as all of my forefathers had done before. If I was so "out of touch with reality" why did they accept me?

I left the forces utterly disgusted after seeing politicians making speeches about us being the "pride of our nation", but when I asked one why I couldn't vote or have a drink he said that I was "just a kid".

Speaking of double standards, your comments dismissing the service and deaths of hundreds of Canadians against fascism in Spain leaves me speechless. These soldiers were fighting Hitler and Mussolini at a time when all of our elites were still singing the praises of fascism.

They were viciously persecuted by our government for speaking out against Hitler yet they still went and gave up everything in an attempt to stop future devastation.

I knew some MacPaps and they remained committed anti-fascists their entire life. I can't say the same about the wave that went in WW2 who went to fight for "king and country".

If the Macpaps were "adventurers" then so are the heroes of WW1 and 2. This Remembrance Day I suggest you make a comment about their "adventurism", I bet you'll be the life of your mess tent!

ETA: Since you are so ignorant about what happened in Spain, maybe you should read at least a little about what they went through:

Mac Paps

[ 29 October 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
How can you determine what cause is just and what cause is unjust?
That is for warriors in each conflict to decide.

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quote:

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How can you determine what cause is just and what cause is unjust?
That is for warriors in each conflict to decide.

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quote:

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Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

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It involved 4000 Canadian soldiers who were essentially press ganged into being insurgents for a civil war. There were several mutinies and many soldiers were executed for refusing to fight.

It began on July 1918 and pulled much needed resources away from World War 1 and lasted until we "cut and ran" in October 1919.

The average age of these child "recruits" was less than 19 years old versus the Spanish Civil War were over 60% of our volunteers were older than 30.

It was called the North Russia Campaign

Even if the link between Catholic hierarchy and fascism is clearly established, it doesn't excuse murder.

On the other hand, I would not accept historical accounts from the Church, or Spanish fascist records as fact.

Maybe we should look at the history.

quote:

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Originally posted by unionist:
The point today is: Will those who say they follow the teachings of Jesus stand up and condemn Ratzinger for his hateful teachings - or does he get a pass because we have to accommodate and respect religious leaders?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
I'm not comfortable with the side stepping of exactly what happened to the 498 people the Catholic church says was executed during the Spanish Civil War.

Even if the link between Catholic hierarchy and fascism is clearly established, it doesn't excuse murder.

On the other hand, I would not accept historical accounts from the Church, or Spanish fascist records as fact.

Maybe we should look at the history.

All of it.

---

There were many other of these "beatified" priests and "martyred catholics" who were active collaborators, who among other things, provided lists of townspeople for the fascists to torture and murder.
For the Vatican to claim, as they did, that this announcement, at this time "has nothing to do with politics" is so much patent hypocrisy and deceit that their supporters can't even keep their story straight.

Here's a few snippets from the Boston Globe:
"Moreover, the timing of the ceremony, and the fact that it was held at the Vatican with an appearance by Pope Benedict XVI, was seen by many as an ideologically motivated gesture of support for a Catholic Church at loggerheads with the leftist Spanish government."
....
"The Vatican and organizers of yesterday's ceremony insisted it was not political.

"To beatify a martyr, or a group of martyrs, has no political meaning, but only exclusively a religious one," Spanish Cardinal Julián Herranz, a member of the ultraconservative Opus Dei organization, which is especially dominant in Spain, told an Italian newspaper.

Later yesterday, protesters scuffled with Catholic adherents outside a church known for its association with Opus Dei. The protesters displayed a banner that, repeating graffiti that has popped up in Spain, said: "Those who have killed, tortured, and exploited cannot be beatified."

They displayed the banner with a replica of Picasso's famous Spanish War painting "Guernica." The churchgoers tore up the banner that portrays the horrors of war as the two groups brawled,
....
Cardinal José Saraiva Martins, a Portuguese prelate who heads the Vatican department that oversees the making of saints, led yesterday's beatification and used it to emphasize Catholic teachings that are being challenged in today's Spain.
....
Another controversy that touched on the beatifications involves Father Gabino Olaso Zabala, who was also killed in August 1936. Decades earlier, he was stationed as a missionary in the Philippines, where witnesses said Olaso was involved in the torture of a priest who was said to have supported the rebellion against Spanish occupiers of the island nation.

Father Fernando Rojo, the Spanish-born postulator, or handler, of Olaso's case and that of the other Augustinian priests, said that such background was not important to the martyr's cause. Whether or not Olaso was a torturer, the key fact is that he died for his faith, he said."Boston Globe
NOTE:
"In Catholicism, beatification (from Latin beatus, blessed, via Greek μακάριος, makarios) is a recognition accorded by the church of a dead person's accession to Heaven and capacity to intercede on behalf of individuals who pray in his or her name (intercession of saints)."

[ 30 October 2007: Message edited by: contrarianna ]

But this just takes the cake:

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Whether or not Olaso was a torturer, the key fact is that he died for his faith.

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Originally posted by unionist:
Let us know what your research turns up, Tommy.

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You know I'm lazy, smartypants. Actually, I will make it my business to look into this a little further, for my own edification, when I get the chance.

I just bristle at the "but he/she/they were worse" argument, no matter what my political sympathies are according to the ox being gored.

I'm not a pacifist, and I never rule out the use of violence. But unlike almost everyone who opens that door, I don't kid myself on what is lurking on the other side. I really bothers me when something bad happens, like Abu Graib, or My lai, and supporters of the original action say "Well, we didn't think that would happen..." It's a hollow excuse. If atrocities didn't happen during a war or civil conflict, committed by both sides, it would be a singularly unusual conflict.

So to, is brushing off said happenings by pointing to the other side's guilt, even if it is worse.

If Catholic Priests were killed, just because they were Catholic Priests, and we find affinity today for the side that did such things, we shouldn't just slough it off.

Then, we'd only differ from Ratzinger by degree, and not principle.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
If Catholic Priests were killed, just because they were Catholic Priests, and we find affinity today for the side that did such things, we shouldn't just slough it off.

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Excuse me, but even though you said "if.." - BULLSHIT.

You think there were roving bands of murderous atheists killing priests at random in the Spanish countryside?

How about launching a research project into whether some Allied soldiers killed German soldiers in the battlefield "JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE GERMAN".

quote:

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You think there were roving bands of murderous atheists killing priests at random in the Spanish countryside?

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No. Atheists, if for no other reason, know better than anyone else not to go around creating martyrs.

quote:

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How about launching a research project into whether some Allied soldiers killed German soldiers in the battlefield "JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE GERMAN".

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Don't be daft.

quote:

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Go ahead and satisfy your own curiosity, but please don't leave an inch for the historical revisionists to appeal the verdict of humanity over Republican Spain. It's frankly offensive and repugnant even to think about it.

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I am sure that you can gaurantee there were not.

quote:

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Originally posted by happydays:
Would you like me to look around and see how many priests, or anyone else for that matter, that were killed by individuals for following the Catholic faith

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I was under the impression that the Mac Paps were paid. I will have to look into my library next weekend for the exact source of this information.

Both the USSR and Germany equal interfered with the internal politics of Spain. The USSR supplied a large number of weapons and equipment to the republican forces. These weapons and equipment appear quite quickly at the start of the war, it appears that they were preposition before the start of the conflict.

I respect what the Mac Paps did in the war and if I was young in 1936, I would have committed myself to the fight.

a lonely worker

I am speaking in general terms of youth of today. I am sure you are a decent person however how many 17 years commit themselves to a demanding profession like the military?

I am pretty sure I have read more on the Mac Paps than you could possible guess. Linking a Wikipedia webpage is not the best way to impress me or to add credit to yourself. I have about six books in my personal library at home, all written in great detail not some crappy written high school entry webpage.

Abraham Lincoln Brigade Archive (ALBA)

quote:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
Both the USSR and Germany equal interfered with the internal politics of Spain. The USSR supplied a large number of weapons and equipment to the republican forces. These weapons and equipment appear quite quickly at the start of the war, it appears that they were preposition before the start of the conflict.

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Yes, Germany and Italy supplied about 6000 trucks and total vehicles. And then there were General Motors, Ford and Studebaker shipping about 12000 vehicles to Franco's fascists.

quote:

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The Nationalists also receive substantial aid from Spanish multi-millionaire Juan March, former-King Alfonso and international businesses, including the Texas Oil Company, Standard Oil of New Jersey, Ford, Studebaker, General Motors, and Dupont of Nemours. . .

However, the Republic is unable to secure the committed support of the major Western democracies, including Britain, France and the US. These countries, along with the League of Nations, adopt a non-interventionist policy and refuse to supply the Republic with arms.

The Republic is also shunned by the international business community, although it does control the country's 700 tonnes of gold which, at the time, is the fourth largest reserve in the world. In September and October 1936 about 70% of the gold is sent to the Soviet Union for safe-keeping and as collateral for Soviet supplies. The gold is never returned.

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They weren't concerned about the gold? I'll bet they weren't!

Picasso's "Secret" Guernica

[ 30 October 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]

Seventy years ago, he was killed during the Battle of Jarama, at the age of 30.

It is heroes like him who deserve to be honoured and remembered forever, not the clergy allied with Franco, Hitler, and Mussolini.

The volunteers were not looking for adventure, they enlisted against incredible persecution to fight fascism. That's why their average age was over 30 years old.

I'm glad in all the books and information you know, the only source you provide is a link to the American Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Yes some Canadians served with them but we always don't need American sources to tell our own story. Most importantly Ernest Hemingway (who I suspect is your main "source" of information on the adventurer part) wasn't the only one who was there.

To suggest both sides interfered in Spain's "internal affairs" is laughable. The Republicans were the democratically elected government and were ordering equipment on behalf of the people. The fascists were the invaders from outside the country.

But using your analogy for a moment, does this mean our current military "adventures" are interfering in the internal affairs of Afghanistan (which many could describe as taking sides in a civil war between the Northern Alliance and Taliban)? Or that we were interfering in the internal affairs of Poland in 1939?

Finally, it never ceases to amaze me how the "stand up for Canada" crowd are the first to puff their chest about what we did once our elites finally figured out what the fascists were up to in 1939, but remain utterly scornful of what others were doing to stop them BEFORE that date.

At the same time it angers me that these same colonial nationalists see no problem with Canadians who went off to fight for the Americans in Vietnam receiving veteran's benefits but those Canadians who denounced Hitler and Mussolini before 1939 remain persecuted, scorned or forgotten to this day.

[ 30 October 2007: Message edited by: a lonely worker ]

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Juliana Sanchez passes a trembling hand in the air above the cracked and crumbling skeletons in the dry earth at her feet, her eyes moist and her voice quavering.

One of these sets of bones — perhaps this one with tattered leather shoes still attached to its feet, or that skull with bullet damage — is the father she lost 70 years ago, shot by a firing squad loyal to Gen. Francisco Franco in Spain's cataclysmic 1936-1939 Civil War.

"This one could be him," says Sanchez, gesturing toward a partially unearthed skeleton, its legs pulled up in a near-fetal crouch. "Or this one, or this. The truth is, they are all my father. That is how I feel."

For Sanchez and tens of thousands like her, a law likely to be passed by Spain's lower house on Wednesday could make finding the remains of victims of Franco easier, and eventually lead to their names being legally cleared. But the "Law of Historical Memory" has sparked a firestorm of debate, with the conservative opposition saying the country agreed to leave the ghosts of its past buried — in every sense — when it undertook a shaky transition to democracy following Franco's death in 1975, and that the bill could tear Spanish society apart.

For Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero — whose own grandfather was executed by Franco's forces during the war — the law is a centerpiece of his first term, and with the help of several smaller parties in parliament, its passage looks all but certain.

It will mandate that local governments fund efforts to unearth mass graves, some of which hold thousands of bodies, and push the governments to make their wartime archives more transparent in order to make searching easier. It will also for the first time formally condemn Franco's coup and the nearly 40-year dictatorship that followed, and order the removal of all fascist symbols from the country.

Francisco Perez, the archbishop of Pamplona, said the bill was unnecessary because "you can't change history," and urged victims "to look for ways to forget."

On Sunday, the Vatican is to beatify some 500 priests killed by Republican forces. Church officials say the timing, two days before the Spanish vote, is coincidental.

Francisco Espinosa Jimenez, the president of the victims' group that has led the effort to recover more than 4,200 bodies buried in the mass grave in Malaga, is outraged, asking: "How is it that we in Malaga are opening old wounds by doing what we're doing, while the Church is not opening old wounds by doing what it is doing?"

His group aims to remove all the remains at the Malaga grave, placing each in a properly marked box.

Another grave complex, in Valencia, is thought to hold more than 26,000 bodies.

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Passions revive over Spanish Civil War

Tommy Paine, yes its important to condemn executions on all sides but when one side is guilty of mass graves in the tens of thousands, that side must bear the bulk of criticism.

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Originally posted by happydays:
Would you like me to look around and see how many priests, or anyone else for that matter, that were killed by individuals for following the Catholic faith
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Sure, if you like. I don't really care that much.

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Originally posted by a lonely worker:
This is just another in a long chapter of the Catholic Church and most religions in general embrace with fascism.

I wonder when Nazinger will canonise the signers of the Reichskonkordat

Here's some photos the Vatican would like the masses to forget (including one of the Spanish priests that have just been canonised):

nazi christians

Toward the bottom are some pictures of the Deutsche Christen, a religious right evangelical movement that propelled Hitler to power.

Pat Robertson would have been proud.

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Interesting pictures to be sure.

Your source for Nazi Christian lists Franz von Papen as a Nazi. Franz von Papen was instrumental to bringing Hindenberg to the presidency and Hitler to the Chancelry when the NSDAP did not have enough members of the Reichstag to form a majority. He was however never a member of the NSDAP (the Nazi Party) but a member of Zentrum. Later he got himself into some trouble by speaking out against police repression, and was shunted around the diplomatic corp of the Reich. He was indicted but never convicted of anything at the Nuremberg trials.

[ 31 October 2007: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Where did I say I was an expert on the Spanish Civil War?

I could easily provide several more links on this subject however I do not see the point in that, do you?

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Originally posted by happydays:
This question was asked.

Joseph Ratzinger was 14 when he was forced to join the Hitler Youth - membership being mandatory for everyone at that age. When he was 16 he was conscripted into the military - deserting in 1945.
I can only assume you were ignorant of these facts when you wrote your post.

This was an answer to the above post:

I was just going to say the same thing as lagatta - a 14 year-old that grew up in the kind of atmosphere that Ratzinger did - well, I don't really consider brainwashed children culpable for their actions, particularly actions of the "sheep following the leader" variety. And I don't buy "mature minor" arguments when it comes to, as lagatta says, children growing up in totalitarian regimes. Almost his entire childhood would have been spent being fed Nazi propaganda.

To answer Free Radical's question, it would appear that Michelle new of Ratzingers situation as a 14 yr old.

Thats all.

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Originally posted by a lonely worker:
Webgear's obvious ignorance, is a sign of a bigger problem: Franco and the church had almost 40 years to chronicle their losses whereas any attempts to discuss the Republican's far greater losses are considered "political" and vigorously opposed:

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Originally posted by Webgear:
a lonely worker

Where did I say I was an expert on the Spanish Civil War?

I could easily provide several more links on this subject however I do not see the point in that, do you?

Do you honestly believe that all those Canadian soldiers went to Spain to fight Fascism? Or perhaps they went overseas for personal reason such adventure, pay, glory or just because they enjoyed a soldier’s life.

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Maybe "the troops" are in Afghanistan because they enjoy violence and parading around with weapons intimidating people.

We can never be sure of anyone's motivations, including our own. But as people keep pointing out, these weren't kids. They risked their lives (and many lost their lives). Many of them proved their anti-fascist commitments before and after fighting in Spain. (I have read that a majority of the Abraham Lincoln brigade were members of the CPUSA, which certainly says something about their motivation, though I am sure you disapprove of it. The Mac-Paps were not predominantly communists, though.)

In any case, I don't understand the relevance of the motivations of the Mac Paps to the beatification of priests killed in the Spanish civil war. And they weren't killed for their faith. They were killed because the religious institution they represented was associated with and implicated in the fascist side of a civil war.

[ 31 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

[ 31 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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Webgear: I was under the impression that the Mac Paps were paid. I will have to look into my library next weekend for the exact source of this information.

Both the USSR and Germany equal interfered with the internal politics of Spain. The USSR supplied a large number of weapons and equipment to the republican forces. These weapons and equipment appear quite quickly at the start of the war, it appears that they were preposition before the start of the conflict.

I respect what the Mac Paps did in the war and if I was young in 1936, I would have committed myself to the fight.

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Thanks for the orderly reply. I didn't mean to imply that the Mac Paps weren't paid - only that they fell into a different category from what we would usually call mercenaries.

This issue of mercenaries is more serious and more complicated today (Blackwater in Iraq, the mis-treatment of prisoners by classifying them as unlawful combatants and sending them to Git-mo, etc.).

Some other contributors on this thread have pointed out that those who volunteered as Mac Paps were older and more ideologically committed as anti-fascists than a typical soldier would be. It was a real struggle to get to Spain AND get back home to Canada safely - never mind actually dying in the conflict itself. Typical mercenaries have much closer connections to pre-existing militaries in their country of origin.

My little bit of web reading has led me to discover that the Mac Paps had many Americans in it, although the name is mostly associated with Canadians. It may be one of those rare instances where our more numerous American cousins helped Canadians out with plumping up the numbers. That does not surprise me, however; the International Brigades were named in a special way and there are all sorts of special characteristics about them that put them into a unique class when it comes to soldiers. Canadian Norman Bethune who, while a medical officer rather than a combatant, also went to Spain to help on the republican side and distinguished himself by setting up mobile blood transfusion units, what the US would later call MASH, and helped save the lives of many soldiers in that conflict and others since that time. Bethune also became a national hero of China. And that's just one Mac Pap. I think they were a very special bunch. The only one I knew personally was Bill Kardash here in Manitoba. His story, too, was amazing.

What's interesting about people on the left from that time is that they often have a completely different view of the military than many on the left today. The Mac Paps and the noble cause of defeating Nazism and fascism in Europe lent huge credibility and honour to those involved in those struggles, which is as it should be. Such honour cannot be manufactured by politicians or anyone else for that matter.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Yea, well, I also forgot to mention that there was a hell of a lot of unemployment in Canada in 1936 or 1937. That was likely a factor in the decision for some to volunteer to go to Spain.

If you were going to wind up in a Canadian labour camp anyway, then why not fight the fascists in Spain?

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Yep. That was certainly a factor. All mixed up with the fact that many people were radicalized in the work camps and "riding the rails" etc.

And, generally speaking, armies tend to draw disproportionately from the ranks of the poor.

[ 31 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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The Brigades came to the aid of the new democratic Spanish republic against a military coup by General Franco.Nearly 1600 Canadian Mac Paps volunteered to fight Franco's fascists.

Many had been On to Ottawa Trekkers, most were labour or student activists. Nearly half died in the Spanish struggle. They lie buried where they fell on the battlefields of Spain. They Mac Paps enjoyed enormous popular support from the Canadian people and fundraising for Spain was high on the agenda for most progressive organizations and individuals.

On to Ottawa trek leader Arthur 'Slim' Evans led the 1937 campaign in B.C. to raise Medical Funds for the Mackenzie Papineau Battalion. He was sent on a two month speaking tour by the Communist Party which included 53 different localities. He began in Vancouver on June 6 and ended in Prince Rupert on July 26, speaking in a new place practically every night.

Four other On to Ottawa trek leaders - Paddy O'Neill, Tony Martin, Peter Neilson and Red Walsh - volunteered to go to Spain and fight. They had all been on the delegation that met with Prime Minister R.B. Bennett. Neilson and O'Neill were killed in Spain.

But while the Mac Paps enjoyed enormous popular support from the Canadian people, the Canadian government did not honour their sacrifice. In fact, upon their return from Spain, they were treated more like criminals than heroes. In spite of this, most volunteered for the Canadian forces when World War II began, to continue the fight against fascism they had begun in Spain.

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Spain poised to officially confront past

Passions are inflamed as parliament prepares to pass a bill that condemns Franco's dictatorship and attempts to grant justice to his victims.

By Tracy Wilkinson, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
October 31, 2007

MADRID -- Spain will take a major step in confronting its past today when parliament unveils legislation aimed at granting justice to hundreds of thousands of long-neglected victims of the Spanish Civil War and the Franco dictatorship.

Debated fiercely for more than a year, the bill contains the most explicit formal condemnation to date of Gen. Francisco Franco's four-decade-long regime. Among other things, it requires the removal of statues, plaques and other symbols that honor the deceased dictator....

Link to full article

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The Pope, meanwhile, has been an outspoken critic of the growing secularization of Spanish society. Church attendance has fallen dramatically since 1975, and according to a 2002 survey only 19 percent of Spaniards consider themselves practicing Catholics. Spain has under current President Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero adopted a liberal divorce law and legalized gay marriage. An indignant Pope Benedict in 2005 urged Spaniards to firmly resist "secular tendencies," and perhaps he associates these with the present attention given to "historical memory."

The Spanish state wants to dig up the victims of fascism. The Church wants to leave them buried, while launching its own remembered martyrs into the stratosphere for veneration. Whom do these include? Augustinian Fr. Gabino Olaso Zabala, executed by Republican forces. In 1896 he participated in the torture of a priest in the Philippines, a Filipino Fr. Mariano Dacanay, who was suspected of sympathy for anti-Spanish revolutionaries. He encouraged prison guards to kick the priest in the head.

But as of Sunday, Catholics so inclined are authorized to seek his intercession between themselves and God.

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This passage from the one of the linked articles should pretty well put the "they were just adventurers" canard to rest:

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For the most part anyone intending to enlist had to have had a history of working for the left. The more drunken and adventurous types who made up part of the European volunteers were also weeded out, leaving those who were well and truly committed to the politics of the fight against fascism.

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[ 02 November 2007: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

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Originally posted by RosaL:

Yep. That was certainly a factor. All mixed up with the fact that many people were radicalized in the work camps and "riding the rails" etc.

And, generally speaking, armies tend to draw disproportionately from the ranks of the poor.

[ 31 October 2007: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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Pierre Burton said the same thing. Young Canadians couldn't get jobs or even a drink anywhere. Laissez-faire capitalism was flat on its ass. At the same time, the U.S. ambassador to Germany said in 1938 or so that he was embarrassed by the number of American industrialists tripping over one another in Berlin while America was still in recovery mode.

Conservative Prime Minister RB Bennett received letters from men and women across the country pleading for assistance because their husbands and children were dying of TB or malnutrition. The feds said there was work if men would leave their families and go looking for it. There was a story about a man who drove his family west looking for work. In despair, he killed his family in the car one night and then suicided himself. Conservative PM RB Bennett left Canada to live in England after being thrown out by voters. A total of three Canadians came to wave goodbye in Halifax.

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Originally posted by Pride for Red Dolores:
Actually, some really didi see it as an adventure and not take it too seriously- they would go to the lines for a day and try to shoot a fascist or two, then return to the city in time for supper.

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Originally posted by Pride for Red Dolores:
I don't think it's that great at all- they treated the survival of a legitimately elected government like it wasn't anything seriours- like it was a holiday !

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