babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » current events   » international news and politics   » Thousands commemorate anniversary of Last Czar's death

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Thousands commemorate anniversary of Last Czar's death
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 18 July 2005 09:19 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
(Moscow) Thousands of Russians marked the 87th anniversary of the assassination by firing squad of Nicholas II, paying tribute Sunday to the last Russian czar. Orthodox Christian priests led groups of observant Russians, Cossacks and others in processions in Moscow and Kyiv. In Yekaterinburg, long lines of regally clad priests marched through the Siberian city to the site where Nicholas and most of his family were killed on the night of July 16-17, 1918.

Hundreds jammed into Moscow's Christ the Savior Cathedral to participate in ceremonies.



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ineedanisland
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9910

posted 18 July 2005 02:10 PM      Profile for ineedanisland     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How do Babblers feel about the execution of the Czar? I knew people in the International Socialists who felt that not only was the Czar's death justified, so were those of his children (on the grounds that they would otherwise have been rescued by the Whites and used as figureheads to incite the counterrevolution). To me, there is no end that can justify the means of shooting innocent children: either find a different means or abandon the end. The Czar himself was probably fair game, though, especially in the context of resisting the extremely brutal and fascistic White Army.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 18 July 2005 02:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think there are those on both ends of the political spectrum who'd think nothing of walking up to a child and shooting it in the head if it advanced their ideology. Ideology must come before such sentimentality, komrade!
From: ĝ¤°`°¤ĝ,¸_¸,ĝ¤°`°¤ĝ,¸_¸,ĝ¤°°¤ĝ,¸_¸,ĝ¤°°¤ĝ, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 18 July 2005 02:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No human being is ever "fair game."

(Actually, I wish we could say that no animal ever was either, but I think we're a century or so short of consensus on that topic.)

The revolution was brutal, and then it became corrupt, so it is hard for most of us, a century later and living in bourgeois comfort even if we are poor, to grasp what drove the brutality of this sub-plot.

I have never been an apologist for the Bolsheviks, and for sure not for what followed them, but I recognize the historic jolt that they gave to all Western societies and economies, not just their own, and I honour them for that.

At the same time, can I think that a family of people trained to think in terms not much advanced beyond the mediaeval "deserved" to be demonized and then murdered? Me, a privileged social democrat who always opposes the death penalty (but then I live in Canada a century later, and I can afford to)? Of course not.

As czars go, Nicholas was a softie ... and as czars go, he went. He was a victim of history, and his family of course were just plain victims.

If you read the story of any individual family, you will end up caring about them. Is that such a bad thing? I have read and wept over this story, the story of the young prince and princesses especially, ripped apart by the bullets of hard men, knowing that those children never had any chance of agency, however privileged their earlier lives.

Of course it is tragic. The story of the revolution is tragic. The biographies of individual Bolsheviks are tragic.

But it remains to us to differentiate the tributes that we pay -- to the human tragedies on the one hand, the immense historical achievements on the other -- and then the horrendous political betrayal that followed.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Betray My Secrets
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9834

posted 18 July 2005 02:34 PM      Profile for Betray My Secrets     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Czar deserved what he got...I only wish Bakunin's men fired the bullet rather than Lenin's.
From: Guyana | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
ineedanisland
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9910

posted 18 July 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for ineedanisland     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Skadl, the argument is not that the Czar "deserved" to die, simply that, with the advancing White Army likely to capture him and use him as a figurehead in their campaign, he was too dangerous to be allowed to live. I know it's a subjective value judgement, but all wars involve killing people, and not just in immediate physical self-defense, and I can understand the Czar being regarded as a valid military target - I just can't bring myself to extend that to his children. That said, all shooting of unarmed prisoners is a scummy thing to do (indeed, all killing of people, period), so I'm not really sure where I stand on this.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 18 July 2005 11:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ineedanisland:
How do Babblers feel about the execution of the Czar? I knew people in the International Socialists who felt that not only was the Czar's death justified, so were those of his children (on the grounds that they would otherwise have been rescued by the Whites and used as figureheads to incite the counterrevolution). To me, there is no end that can justify the means of shooting innocent children: either find a different means or abandon the end. The Czar himself was probably fair game, though, especially in the context of resisting the extremely brutal and fascistic White Army.

I think the answer can be found here: The Czar most certainly would have ordered himself and his family shot were it his business to make the decision on the basis of his objective knowledge of the circumstances.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 19 July 2005 04:15 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I think there are those on both ends of the political spectrum who'd think nothing of walking up to a child and shooting it in the head if it advanced their ideology. Ideology must come before such sentimentality, komrade!

And that's exactly what Nicky's guards did to throngs of cold and hungry protestors at the palace gates - shot them ... to death.

I think Nicky brought it on himself, really. During military excursions into other countries, Russian conscripts took notice of Nicky's cowardice when he would ride back to Russia ... to make woopee with Alexandra, allegedly. It was the old, "I've got to go fuck my wife" routine, and the poor bastards on the front lines began to feel less and less amorous toward royalty all the way around. The Romanovs and their parasitic entourage indulged in excess and gave lavish parties at any of their 30 odd summer and winter palaces while millions of Russian's lived in abject poverty.

[ 19 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8104

posted 20 July 2005 05:07 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It was an anarchist revolution that did it. Sad what happened afterwards.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9652

posted 20 July 2005 05:54 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I guess people don't know their history anymore.

The last Czar was highly anti-semitic and had policies that had the majority of the Russian populace living in poverty. There was even famines in Russia when the Czar was in charge.

There was a revolution in 1917 for a reason although things went from bad to worse!!!


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2777

posted 20 July 2005 11:01 PM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The execution of Tsar Nicholas and family took place in a totally different historical and cultural context then what any of us experience today.

These days when a political leader is overthrown its very easy for him/her to hop on a jet plane carrying suitcases loaded with cash and in a few short hours be thousands of miles away at a sunny beachhouse in exile.

In the war-ravaged Europe of 90 years ago it just wasn't possible to get very far in a hurry.


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4717

posted 21 July 2005 12:08 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pre-meditated killing of the unarmed is murder, regardless of however much they 'deserved' it. I would not have sanctioned this, or any other killing. Not even Hitler or Stalin.

As an aside, I went to school with one of the Tsar's closest living descendents - it was just an ordinary school in the North of Scotland, and he was just an ordinary, decent kid. He definitely had that distinctive Romanov look about him.


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 21 July 2005 04:54 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
However, I think the Czar would have sanctioned this killing if it were his decision to make. Offing the children of the usurped royalty is a standard practice in monarchies, and any study the history of the English royal family will show.

Even if it were the case that all of the Czar's children wanted absolutely nothing to do with politics in Russia, that would not have prevented some damn fool Count, Duke, Baron or Lord from acting in their name.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 21 July 2005 06:31 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
However, I think the Czar would have sanctioned this killing if it were his decision to make. Offing the children of the usurped royalty is a standard practice in monarchies, and any study the history of the English royal family will show.

Henry VII was one of the suspects who killed Edward the IV's twin sons. He found legal excuses to execute rival claimants to the throne. He married the princes' eldest sister, Elizabeth of York, to reinforce his hold on the throne, but her right to the throne could only happen after her twin brothers were dead.

Blue bloods often inter-married and sometimes produced insanity and weaklings in their efforts to maintain wealth and power. They hid their genetic baggage from public view. Nicholas and Alexandra's son, Alexis, was said to have inherited hemophilia from Queen Victoria's side. Queen Vicky and hers refused to accept their unpopular Russian cousins for fear of importing revolution.

Royalty was about appalling greed and megalomania while commoners lived in grinding poverty. They weren't behind the door at stabbing one another in the back if necessary.

[ 21 July 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca